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Why Chinese Mothers are Superior
Here's an interesting article that I thought I'd like to share, from the Wall Street Journal
Why Chinese Mothers are Superior http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...528698754.html What do you all think? Is this a good way of parenting? What are your own personal experiences with your parents? I think I might contribute my own little anecdotes later, since I'm Asian (though Japanese, not Chinese), but I want to see what people have to say about this. |
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So they force their children into being who they want them to be to be their idea of success.
Doesn't sound like good parenting to me. It sounds like something that will make a child resent you. |
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Is this a good way of parenting?
Possibly. Smart, that's debatable. If you can handle having your children hate you and deprive them of a fun and happy childhood, by all means, these women are breeding geniuses by the shitload. |
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According to the article: "Western parents try to respect their children's individuality, encouraging them to pursue their true passions, supporting their choices, and providing positive reinforcement and a nurturing environment. By contrast, the Chinese believe that the best way to protect their children is by preparing them for the future, letting them see what they're capable of, and arming them with skills, work habits and inner confidence that no one can ever take away." In defense of the article though, I've seen plenty of Chinese (and Asians, for that matter) kids who are happy with themselves, because they are good at what they are do, albeit good at what is given to them by their parents. |
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That's very interesting. Some of these families or "Chinese Mothers" wonder why they have sterotypes. Forcing kids into doing something what they want them to do doesn't sound like good parenting to people who were raised by different heritage, race, etc.. But it can't be denied that they do raise very smart and intelligent children who succeed at almost everything IMO.
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I really don't think that is a good way of parenting. Think about it your children hate you thats not how a parent is suppose to treat there child. Give them love and attention and allow them to be whatever they want to be.
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Horrible parenting. The kids have no freedom with their life. For until they move out the Mother is their dictator.
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I am Chinese, and I have these similar experiences as well with my parents. I personally feel that the parenting is effective, but by all means, not necessary. So in terms of "good" parenting, I suppose that's a subjective manner. I believe that it is "good" in the long run just because it certainly helped me to realize that there is more than parties, sleepovers, etc. in life.
However, it can be "bad" in some cases as well. Fortunately, I don't have any of these cases, but I've heard a story about another Asian who is mathematically talented but despises mathematics because his parents ruined his joy of the subject. Essentially, it gives the children practically no control over their life, when the parents are constantly concerned about money and life. This is an interesting topic. |
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As the Dean of Admissions of MIT Marilee Jones said, there are "thousands ... [of] Korean kids with the exact same profile of grades and activities and temperament … another textureless math grind." You have to admire the pragmatism of some of these parents though. |
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This was written in first person by some woman who thinks that her way of parenting is correct...the entire article is a giant opinion.
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Of course it's an opinion, if the title didn't make it apparent enough...
But anyway. One thing that I think is important to note is the cultural background. Many first-generation Asians have pushy parents. Given that the parents moved to the United States for greater opportunities, of course they would want to push their children as hard as possible to be "successful" (I'm hesitant to use that term, because the definition of success, again, varies). So there's already a mentality putting a strong emphasis on hard work and diligence, as well as a willingness to obtain a financially stable and successful life, from the start. |
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Excellent parenting. Although, Amy Chua is a bit on the extreme side. After all, she did attend Yale Law School - can't expect any less from such a hard working parent.
Work hard now - play later. Most of you would be better off had your parents raised you in a more strict manner, such as this woman. Although, she does take two EXTREMES and puts them in an almost satirical way.. she has a valid point. Westerners are more prone to parenting with "love" and "care", but really it's just an excuse. The more parents try to keep you happy from the start, the more parents try to make you feel loved, the less you'll start working or studying on your own. Unless children have that external force (motivation, punishments, prizes), they will NEVER do things on their own, simply because they have no reason to. Giving children a reason to hone a skill whether it be musical instruments or academics or sports will be beneficial to not only the child later on, but to the parents as well. Think about it. Children and teenagers may get their 5-10 years of relaxation and fun, but once they're thrown out into the real world - how will they cope? With the 5-10 years spent not studying hard, not honing some sort of skill, not doing anything really, other people who were motivated since their childhood will have already learned how to play the guitar, piano and will also have gotten ahead of you in terms of academics. So while you work at a low income retail store (a rather hurtful stereotype, but true for the most part regardless), the people who were raised by strict parents (maybe not as strict as Amy Chua, but still strict in terms of Westerns) will have attended a more prestigious college and will have a more prestigious job. White collar, blue collar. The difference exists for a reason - parenting. PS) Read about this a few days ago.. my friend showed it to me. I have to say - I was quite pleased with this article. Maybe it's because I was raised by someone like Amy Chua. PSS) Most replies in this agreeing with the article will probably be made by Asians and non-Westerners while most replies disagreeing with the article will consist of (surprise!) Westerners. It's because we were raised in such different environments - I guess the "model minority" stereotype is confirmed with this rather unorthodox yet valid article. |
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I was also quite surprised at how extreme her article was.
I think might look into picking up a copy of her book, Battle Hymn of the Tiger Mother, from which this article was excerpted. On a side note, I want to go see her talk soon. I see her quite a bit around Yale. |
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(At least I don't have to force myself to play the piano... I kind of did in a paid class with a neighbor, but then after some years I forgot.) My mom claimed to be Chinese (or "Chinese mother"), though was born at Indonesia. I think she's a distant example from the article, but come up with her own things. Anyway, to the point: I'm not sure if this is bad parenting or not, but I hate to see a child cry or go into anger and chaos. (This is why I do not want to be a mother or have kids because I just can't handle it!) So... Maybe it's the parenting I do not want to take as my path. :S (Again, it's my opinion. :X) |
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Being in a Chinese family myself, I know first hand at how strict Chinese parents can be, although it isn't necessarily a bad thing. I think it might be Western influence but my parents respect my individuality and generally they became lenient as I grew up. For example, as a kid I was never allowed to go to friends houses let alone "hang out". Nowadays I just ask them to drop me off at places and they don't say anything about it, only asking me questions like "what time will you be back?".
They never forced me to play piano/violin, or forced me to study math for hours on end (in return though, math isn't exactly my forte and I have absolutely no musical talent, lol). Do I regret not being able to match child prodigies? A bit. I regret not taking any of those lessons as a child and it's pretty late for me to be learning piano now at my age (lack of self esteem could also play a role here since generally speaking I always think "I'm not good enough"). I wouldn't exactly call this bad parenting. It has both it's pros and cons. |
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I wouldn't say it's good parenting to make your child spend all of their time practicing piano or studying, to the exclusion of a fun childhood or social involvement. I also wouldn't say it's good parenting to make your child's life as comfortable as humanly possible, to the exclusion of skills or schoolwork. You have to choose a middle ground.
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In my perspective, parents should let their kids express themselves so that they can lead a healthy social life; however, the parents can have limitations to what they do.
But I wouldn't exactly call it bad parenting, the parents in this article are helping their kids have an excellent education leading them to have great jobs, which is a good thing, though they should at least let their kids have a break once in a while. |
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There is control through fear: being suspended of freedom, inflicting punishments for unacceptable behaviour, and having one move only under your command.
On the contrary, there is control through bonding: letting one pursue their own dreams, acknowledging accomplishments, and letting them lean on your shoulders whenever they need support. As Mahatma Gandhi once said: "Power is of two kinds. One is obtained by the fear of punishment and the other by acts of love. Power based on love is a thousand times more effective and permanent then the one derived from fear of punishment." Thus, in my opinion, I would say this is 'bad' parenting because of the way they handle their children. These actions are unheard of around my community, even though there are many Chinese parents present. I am glad to have laid-back Japanese parents xD |
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Most of the kids I know who had parents like these are not being done any favors. They may come out of it all as musical prodigies or mathematical juggernauts, but they're utterly incapable of making their own decisions.
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In my humble opinion, school =/= intelligence. Having a 4.0 GPA means nothing more or less than that the child is willing to do schoolwork.
That aside, I do believe a certain degree of strictness is beneficial to anything. But taking this to the metaphorical fringe is a bit over the top. Being on the quizbowl team, I have several friends from that part of the world, and I can grasp or at least begin to grasp the extent to which they take it. (One was told by his parents to attend tutoring because he had a 98 in diff'eq.) I've said before that I don't care about school much, mainly because in the majority of cases I've been exposed to the material taught before the school curriculum catches up, making classes pathetically easy. [I've also been informed that college is a different world, and I'm used to studying at the perceived rate.] Admittedly, in freshman year (the first semester at least) I was extremely lax about school, mainly because I was far more interested in mathematics and programming. The lowest grade I made was an 89. In the interim between then and now, I've made about one B; this wasn't due to parenting (mine are quite laissez-faire.) But then, I'm really not qualified to comment on the correlation there, because I'm a couple standard deviations above the mean and haven't really experienced the consequences of substandard performance. I don't agree with humiliation as a consequence for anything, especially mental matters, especially-especially school. Probably Western influence operating there. [For the record, an extreme amount of negative reinforcement is detrimental to emotional performance, which in any event is more important than academic performance because it directly interferes with life on both a subconscious and conscious level.] Call me soft, but it doesn't strike me as emotionally balanced. |
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Go figure. |
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I'm trying to figure out how you can even take AP Calculus as a freshman, that's way too much acceleration. Maybe it's because of where I come from, but the absolute minimum around here is eleventh grade.
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It's very healthy to start off your high school carrier in advanced maths & science courses because you'll then know whether you want to pursue a carrier in the maths & sciences (ex. engineering, aero, biochem, etc) or whether you want to pursue a more liberal arts & humanities carrier (ex. law, econ, poli sci, etc) or even both (ex. finance). All in all, pushy parents create prodigies and the 4.0 students that most of us have envied at one point in our lives. We even wish we had their grades, their skills, and that's where the difference comes in. The parents. |
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No, I've been through calc, I understand it just fine, but the way my schedule works there's too much prep before it to take it in ninth grade.
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Depends if the school allows acceleration.
At my school, if you could demonstrate that you understood everything preparatory for calculus, you could take calculus whenever you wanted. |
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I suppose that's true, I just didn't want to get embroiled with the college too much back then...
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I think Minati puts it very well. So-called "Chinese parenting" looks extreme because "Western parents" are too nervous. They think that any exertion of force will make them explode into a frenzy of distrust which, of course, no parent wants. There are some exaggerations in this article, of course, but some of the arguments do have a little sense to them if you think about it. In plays and musicals, the prospects of landing a big part involve a hundred things besides talent. Why bother with something that can, in some cases, be unwinnable? |
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Helping children push their potentials is a good thing, doing so without knowing their true talents is not really..
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I'm more curious to find out how these children will act one they grow up and have their own kids. Will they do the same thing or take the exact opposite approach?
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It depends. Are they surrounded by the same environment that they grew up in? In that case, most likely. Are they more aware of pop culture forcing an idealized world where all people with IQs above 100 are soulless voids and all people with IQs below 100 need to "work" "hard" while keeping in mind that the importance of self-value and predestination might make it completely unimportant down everyone's throats? It depends on whether or not they succumb to peer pressure.
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On the other hand, hispancs simply have to cross the border. They have nothing to lose, since they're often poor from the beginning. As such, they want their children to work right after high school, so their children also are unable to obtain a post-secondary education. This is what creates the gap between immigrants from different countries, and the dichotomy in performance between Asian-Americans and Latin-Americans - there's already an inherent gap in resources and familial values from the start. |
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"You wanna know how you can help your children?
Leave them the fuck alone!" -George Carlin http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?y...no_selfdefense http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?y...=victimization http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?year=2005&rant=older http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?y...tion_authority http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?y...eist_fallacies My parents "leave me the fuck alone" (for the most part) and I can say that's the best thing they've ever done for me AT ALL, and also the reason why I've been able to get the highest grades I can possible and actually value my efforts |
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Excerpted from http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?y...no_selfdefense: "I, for one, hope this starts a trend. I hope more young people will respond to violence with violence. Many will say that I'm encouraging the destruction of the "traditional family" and to that I say you're goddamn right I am! When the vast majority of child abusers are parents, it is starkly clear that the traditional family is exactly the sort of place where bad things happen. " No, but really. The concept of inter-generational equality, as the website calls it, is ridiculous. |
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Sorry to say, but leaving kids "the fuck alone" has never been a good parenting choice, if not the worst. That has been tested by time and time again. |
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From
http://www.snipeme.com/archive.php?y...tion_authority "One of the biggest bullshit lines that I hear from people all the time is that you shouldn't question authority, not even when authority is obviously wrong." The problem is, more often than not, parents are right - after all, they do have much more experience. They may not be infallible, but I'm almost certain that they're more capable of making a rational, intelligent decision than their child. I consult my parents all the time, and I respect them because they know what they're doing. Now, I'm not saying that children should always act obsequiously; I'm just saying that I don't think this article is particularly relevant to the parent-child relationship. I just don't think a parent-child relationship is one that can be entirely relegated to a authority figure-follower relationship. |
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Main reason why I posted those is because interestingly enough, it seems like most of the child abuse actually occurs at the home according to statistical data.
There have been many cases where my parents simply just don't listen to me and they just yell at me to do something. And I have to lie to them, and I don't feel safe talking to them at all. They pretty much forced me to break any close ties whatsoever. So if any of you are willing to, elaborate more on why you think it is "ridiculous" please. |
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They're not "leaving you alone" - they just don't really care anymore because it's hopeless now. Especially not when you're off in the corner playing Stepmania (not saying you play it 24/7, but just stating some of your interests over other things, such as family matters, schoolwork, etcetera). I say this because I (think) I saw you post a thread when I didn't have an account about your schoolwork ethics and how you had no motivation.. or something along those lines. Assuming what I think is true, then maybe your parents do have a legitimate reason to yell at you, and maybe you don't have a legitimate reason to be ignoring them. It's not they who cut off close ties with you - it is you, the child. A parent would not do so, especially not if they're still sending you to school and "leaving you the fuck alone". Cutting off ties means divorces, non parental guardians, and much more. So I just think your parents gave up on you. That's my speculation, take my opinions with a grain of salt - they are not personal attacks but rather observations that I've made in my few days here on the forums. |
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This parenting is just FANTASTIC, when the parent's expectations are greater than the child's ability, you'll get some seriously fucked up kids because cussing them out, insulting them, and threatening them will ensue a fear of their 'Chinese mother' because they're not perfect. It's also a sticky situation when you barrage your children 5 hours a day for 10 years on the piano and it turns out that they don't like the piano. Now you have a kid who extremely good at piano, but not very good at anything else. Also, last time I checked, you have to be really damn good at music to make a decent living off of it, book smarts aren't a good backup without any 'street skills' to pair them with. Bottom line for me is to at least allow your kids to show some kind of genuine interest in something before you start unleashing hell on a warpath of fury to get your kid to be perfect at one specific skill. Not allowing your children to have a mind makes for a cookie cutter world. If all parents had piano prodigies, nobody would be a piano prodigy thus fucking up their future. I love how Amy Chua totally dismissed her husband's input on the matter at hand and continued to be a raging bitch. tl;dr: There are too many problems with this parenting style that will lead your child to have either a fucked up life or an unhappy one. Kids need to have a mind of their own and pursue what they excel at. /endrant EDIT @ Minati: Quit attacking Dossar for being good at Stepmania. You're making him sound like a punk who fails all his classes and is an ass to his parents, but as he stated before he gets good grades and is self-motivated. Just because he's good at SM and FFR doesn't mean he's completely shut out from the world. |
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I read the whole thread before I posted. I just didn't find it necessary to say:
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In fact, there are a few asians with 'Chinese mothers' who are quite good at this game as well as excelling in their math and music. The difference between Dossar and them is that Dossar doesn't have a parent forcing him to do anything. So since both sides are represented, it's probably safe to say that skill in Stepmania has absolutely nothing to do with this topic and it can only be taken as a personal attack, even if you didn't think it was. Like I previously stated, I don't support the chinese mother parenting style nor the "leave them the fuck alone" parenting style, but something in between is perfect. |
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What I was saying is, had DossarLX ODI's parents (or mine) brought him up in a strict manner instead of the "leave him the fuck alone" beginning from his younger years, he probably would have never began Stepmania, and would probably be a 4.0 future valedictorian student with interests in swimming, the french horn, or whatever. All of which are infinitely more useful than knowing how to smash arrow keys. That I regret myself - spending time on Stepmania. I mean, look at yourself. 25 billion points, 4800 posts. You could've spent that time smashing all those arrows, lurking the forums, typing up lengthy responses such as these - on something else. Something... more meaningful, more useful, and more respectable. That is what the Asian parent tries to enforce. Doing something worthwhile your time. They try to teach theirs kids what's worth their time from the start. Taking part in a school play when you're not planning on doing theatrics in college is not worth [their] time. Doing sleepovers and playing doll wasn't worth Amy Chua's time. Sure, it may differ for everyone, but I'm sure that we'll all regret spending so much time on FFR and Stepmania at some point in our lives. Because.. you should all ask yourself this question. Will you be playing FFR in 15 years? Or will you still know how to play that violin in 15 years? Will you swim and play tennis in 15 years? Of course. But will you still be out partying with people in their 20s in 15 years? Will you be gossiping with your friends about who broke up with who and who started going out with who in say.. 10 years? Or will you be regretting those few years you spent so carelessly, thinking of all the things that you could have done and could have learned? By that time however, there will be nobody to blame but yourself. Not even your parents. |
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Oh, I am so going to tear this thread apart.
I took the time to read every post here, especially the ones that mattered. So don't pull of one of those "You obviously didn't read the previous pages" comments with me. To start off, the article itself has way too many weak arguments that aren't backed up in order to be taken seriously. She says she bases her argument on her parenting and the result of it. She claims to have friends that have benefited from the same style of parenting, and she knows people who have suffered from a "Western Style" of parenting. Yet she never provides evidence or proof of either of these, and we're stuck with one story a girl who played one piano song, which even wasn't confirmed as well. But let's just take her word for it. Take this excerpt for example: Quote:
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/insult http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/insult http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/insult http://www.yourdictionary.com/insult http://www.brainyquote.com/words/in/insult179381.html http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Insult Last time I checked, lazy, cowardly, self-indulgent and pathetic were all examples of demeaning words. If you don't believe me, feel free to search up a definition of a credible source and prove me wrong. She does in fact insult Lulu, yet denies it in her proof. This definitely decreases the reliability of this article as fact, and creates a lot of bias. Her philosophy is also based on one factor, which is the parenting style of course. She doesn't take into mind the educational system that she places her daughters in. They could be prestigious private schools that teach children with highly qualified teachers. She never said she home schooled, but it's implied she didn't when says she never let her daughter go to a school play. She never references the fact that the chinese educational laws and system is very highly rated, and instead takes all credit for her child's success, as if she taught everything herself. She says chinese mothers never worry about their children's self esteem. Yet in places like Japan where parenting may be similar there is a high suicide rate that is directly caused by the difficulty of Japanese education. I can put my money on the idea that it's not the education system killing children, but on the parenting from the strict mothers and fathers. Also if you want to challenge me on that suicide death rate, then you better have some proof. It isn't really my job to have to back up every little thing I say. If I have to I will, but don't challenge me with words and no proof, it's just plain unprofessional. DossarLX ODI - I don't completely agree with your theory, but for a child to self motivate themselves is completely possible. They can also be motivated through the support of friends and teachers as well, so it's not entirely impossible for a child to have no kind of parenting and still grow up to be talented, though I may not agree that it exactly fits your situation. Minati -Ignorance is bliss isn't it? You may as well be Amy Chua herself, creating arguments with holes, contradictions and weak. Quote:
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All in all Minati, it isn't worth defending such a poorly written argument in the first place. Backing up your arguments with factual information and low biased statistics are most effective when trying to argue though. Feel free to argue with this post, just try to back it up so you don't look like a hypocrite who didn't read my post. Since you are used to providing assumptions that are irrelevant as well, feel free to attack me rather than my argument. It will very mature. -ddrXero64 |
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Now, the point of that wasn't to gasconade, but to point out the fact that people can perform well in standard measures of achievement without going through slave labor as a child. It's not as if this topic hasn't been studied in the past. It is well known that strong parenting will increase the achievement of a child. With that said, what is the ultimate outcome of children that are pushed to the extreme? When we look at the data in psychology from super high achievers to child prodigies, several things stand out. Many of these children burn out when they reach college; they become tired and frustrated and daunted by the fact that their torture still isn't over, and many of them fail to achieve anything near what they achieved as a child in what could be considered the major turning point in their life. They simply lack the independent drive necessary to make it through these tumultuous times. Essentially, often times this style of parenting backfires. Pushing a child too hard can break a child down. These children are incredibly prone to depression and failure later in life. This type of parenting style can also stymie creativity. There are benefits to leisure time. When kept in check, play time can foster intellectual growth through exploring curiosity and building a sense of self. A superior parenting style is one that is both tough but nurturing as well. I think that pushing your children is good for them, but on the same point, you can only push so hard. You should always allow your children time for themselves, because this allows them to understand their own desires and passions. If someone is passionate about something and has a burning desire to do something, suddenly you don't need to push them anymore. Suddenly, they're perfectly capable of doing everything and more independently. If you look at prodigies that didn't burn out as adults, the ones that go on to achieve great things with their lives, they are the ones with the burning desire. They're the ones stringing the parents along, not the other way around. If someone is going to grow to be all that they can be, they need to find this drive within themselves. Simply pushing someone along as hard as you can is never going to force this into them; they have to find it. Asians in North America have been highly successful, nobody is denying that. I think this result is convoluted though; it's not strictly because of parenting. There's a sort of immigrant effect where the people that leave a country for another tend to be above average intelligence, meaning their progeny will be above average as well. As such, the sample is a bit biased, and we're talking about training children that are already quite intelligent, so of course they're going to do well. It's another thing to take a child of mediocre or less than average ability and expect them to do great things through parenting alone. It will never happen. Ne Plus Ultra only ever happens in combination of an exceptional person and an exceptional parent, never one or the other. |
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Dear ddrxero64,
It is very entertaining to see you make an attempt at "tearing this thread apart", but in reality, all you've done is just pore over my posts and you have contributed absolutely nothing to the "critical thinking" section of this forum. As a matter of fact, it just seems like you're riding DossarLX ODI's dick for all he's worth, and that's totally fine by me. After all, you do seem like a stuck up teenager who thinks his shit smells sweeter than most. But that's fine by me, since I know you don't pursue law like I do, and you've probably never taken part in a serious debate either. Let's take a look at this.. "There are rappers who have none of those qualities, and yet they're out living their dream. By the way, stereotypes aren't true, or they wouldn't be called stereotypes, they would be called a fact." Just this part of your post alone indicates that you have a flawed way of thinking. Stereotypes as a matter of fact came about because they are true for the most part. For example, do Asians tend to have smaller and slitty eyes? Yes, because that is indeed true for the most part. Do white people tend to be the "disgusting pigs" as the extremist Chinese describe Westerners to be? Not really, but America definitely courts some of the most obese people in the world. Do chinese people tend to be the "model minority" in America? For the most part, yes - that is why people like Amy Chua exist today. Also, your example of a rapper living out their dreams... is just pathetic. These jobs you speak of (rappers, celebrities, etc) are jobs that are not applicable to everyone and thus because the Chinese mothers realize that the average son and daughter has a very slim to zero chance of holding an occupation of the sort, they push their children towards more stable jobs and professions, such as the stereotypical doctor or the lawyer. And let's look at this: "Please, entertain me with one statistic from a credible source that claims 99.9% of teenagers are worse off having their parents leaving them alone." I would love to see how you deal with people. When I mention "99.9% of teenagers", do you take that as a literal statistic? Or are you so mentally retarded that you don't get why the number "99.9" was used in that sentence? It's called exaggeration - it's used to make a point. I don't know about you, but a lot of the people I know sure can't come up with exact statistics without in-depth research - we're not robots and supercomputers. And the fact that you take my words so literally makes you seem like a rather shallow person who has no real content to back shit up. Your style of analytics and "debating" if one called "bullshit." There maybe a point here and there, but in between, there is a whole lot of bull. If you can't come up with legitimate reasons that can prove teenagers are better off without their parents guiding them and telling them what to do, be my guest! I'm sure you can argue against the entire world on that. So good luck! You sir, seem like a 17 year old teenager who has big dreams and big aspirations, but really - your shit doesn't smell sweeter than most of us here. Remember that, or else you'll get bitten in the ass big time later on. |
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Just because something is offensive doesn't make it untrue. It really bothers me when people say "But this isn't true for EVERYONE etc" before rattling off some random anecdote that shows a contrary-to-average case -- no shit. When a generalization is made, it's usually helpful to speak in terms of average and deviation. That is to say, maybe group A has a lower average of metric X than group B does, but perhaps with a much greater variance.
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With regards to the article, I think it's a big publicity stunt to garner interest about her new book from which this article was taken.
I would imagine that someone as well-educated as a Yale professor would have a more nuanced and balanced opinion, so the inflammatory article (so extreme it almost reads like a satire) is a clever way to enrage people to buy her book, haha. |
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Thanks for the letter Minati.
First, just let me say I've never talked to DossarLX, but I have heard of him. The fact that he doesn't use generalizations to make something seem 100% true is enough for me to agree with him for the most part. You, on the other hand, are still defending an article which still has no effective argument, and is based merely on a story here and there. Law isn't a pursuit of mine, though business is. I am a student in college, and I do study business tactics and also try to get a little psychology done to learn how people like you try to argue, and why they say things to convey certain ideas that aren't remotely true. Your comment on stereotypes is almost decent, except for the fact that none of the stereotypes you mentioned are even discussed nowadays. Asians having slitty eyes is a factual characteristic of the race, unless of course they are a mixed race, in which case it is questionable. And the white people who are pigs is a new stereotype that I've never heard of, probably made by you in a careless attempt to prove your point. As a matter of fact, white people and America are not the same term, so look that over. There are plenty of countries in Europe that are full of white people. While I do admit a rapper was a poor example, I still have yet to hear an explanation on how playing classical instruments and avoiding an extracurricular activity will raise the chances of becoming a stereotypical doctor or lawyer. Also, the 99.9% comment I made was sarcastic. Your defense on your sarcasm only led to your inability to see mine. It's obvious that no such statistic exists, and I only pointed out the flaw in your argument. Using words like "entertain" is a hint enough that I didn't take it seriously. You claim you were being sarcastic, and I could see that, but for you to miss my sarcasm (which was a bit more obvious) is very ironic. If you wish to see how I deal with people, than ask the people who talk to me. You'll most likely get a mixed reaction, but I can guess which responses you'll get the most. Of course, if you decide to do this, try to lessen the bias you are used to, such as appealing to the bigger crowd, only asking people you prefer to talk to, etc. I do have big aspirations and big dreams, though I'm a bit passed those teenage years. At least you are able to see that. Your choice of debate isn't one to be used by a lawyer though, and I can't imagine a respected lawyer using your style of argument in a court room. You might want to work on that if you want to succeed in the field of law. Last time I checked, my shit smells horrible. Nice try at some sort of comeback though, it was very original. |
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If you aren't using generalizations, you aren't really saying anything useful.
Generalizations are useful if you want to identify areas to actually SOLVE and DISCUSS problems. Otherwise you're just sweeping blatant truths under the rug and hoping they manage themselves. I am too lazy to get into the retarded argument you two are having, but I will interject that plenty of people try to get their kids involved in things like music and sports and other extracurricular activities because it teaches discipline, hard work, talent, and mental acuity. That sort of mindset ultimately spills over into almost every other facet of life. |
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I can see where this debate will end up. So I will stop now.
Say what you want, I guess I will finish replying. Too much hypocrisy and contradiction for me to even bother arguing. In the end, none of this will have affected my life or anyone's life here in my opinion (at least I hope so), so I don't really take much of it to heart. Thanks for the legitimate debate though, I did get to hone my skills in effective argument. |
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Also lol @ Sue. |
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My post will not follow your arguing because it's off-topic, so :
The human being wasn't born to be subject to an absolute authority, it isn't made to be mechanic. "The end justifies the means" is a truncated thought, it's like thinking utopian dictatorship is beneficial because there's a high repression of crime (aka no crime!!!! (ps that's totally wrong)) and the society is really "steady". And I mean, come on, it's just like they forgot their child had feelings and was aware of itself. The problem is in their logic. In the eyes of the society, of course, your "human value" doesn't worth anything because you're judged according to what you're able to do. But a human being HAS to be itself, and not the product of a strict-like-hell education. The human being needs its batch of "debauchery", it needs a life that is full of different colors, he needs to learn from its error and by itself, not by an ubiquitous control over him that makes him the puppet of external ideals, that's how the human being is, if the "wrong things" can't be removed, it's because we're plural, and not socially monists. This artificial way of life is against our inherent "moral" laws because of how "squared" it is, the higher you're strict and represive, the wronger you get (of course it's not like I thought we needed no limit, but there's a goddamn fair media for each thing, for each person). Perfection is NOT human. Trying to reach it is pernicious and will lead to bad consequences over your psychology. |
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With regards to the thread: [There has to be some sort of vocational hierarchy in this world. Suppose that everyone, literally everyone, raised their children in this fashion and expected them to be professors at Yale or something such. We'd get a utopian society, the concept of which was mentioned briefly in Brave New World. If the world was composed mostly of high-prestige jobs, then who'd wash their dishes? They certainly wouldn't. It's human nature to have an attitude such as that. The working poor may be an eyesore to higher society, but they do serve a useful function, and therefore merit sustenance. A minor point, but an important one nevertheless. Their parenting technique may produce generally more successful adults; however, the upper class that they subsequently join is filled with just as many Americans who made their way in the world by desire to work, among other things. To paraphrase Confucius, "Choose a job you enjoy, and you will never work a day in your life."] There is little reason to be perfectionistic. The fact of the matter is, no matter how hard you work, no matter how hard you're pushed, there will always be someone ahead of you, whether by natural talent or an inhuman work ethic (or both.) Having participated in quizbowl and variants for a full decade and counting, I can testify that although I have a talent for it, and though I love it and therefore work at it like a madman, I've (and by that I mean my team) been beaten dozens of times. The fact that most of them were Asians probably proves the point that I'm trying to contradict, but a fair amount of Americans have done it as well, including Americans that had far more resources than we do, and Americans that have fewer. Admittedly, my attitude toward life in general (there are exceptions) is basically that if I can't do a given task in a fairly short amount of time then trying to accomplish it is moot at the present time. This is because I believe knowledge, and skill in general, is based on subconscious pattern recognition and intuition. In short, practice does make perfect, but burnout does exist. I apply myself without exhausting myself, and it's worked for me. In summary, there is no need to be perfectionistic. Being human is good enough for most employers, and social Darwinism will take it from there. Talent rises to the top. Sheesh, I could write more, but I've been doing so for a couple hours at least. I'll stop here. |
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But anyway. Personally, as an Asian, I find it extremely disturbing that this article seems to generalize all Asian parents to be this way. It certainly helps to perpetrate many of the stereotypes regarding Asians... In response to the article: http://www.jeanhsu.com/?p=229 Check this article out. I imagine it would be received more warmly. |
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Yea, I'll admit I didn't read this entire thread. But this is all I want to address.
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I also happen to know at least 2 others who are the same as me, one plays violin much better than any person I've ever known and a guy who plays viola and him and I have competed for years. None of us had the "Amy Chua" Asian mom. I also know of a few others on this site who play musical instruments with massive amounts of skill [Jtehanonymous to be the first to come to mind]. And guess what. We all play FFR and have played this game for many years. Does that mean we're all wasting our lives even though we all still excel in music and are leading well-rounded lives? You should really watch what you say because you are also one of those kids that plays this game and you're a lot better than the average FFR player... Quote:
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@dag21 Well, I can't help it, English isn't my mother tongue ;_; So making long and developed phrases like this is quite awkward in itself.
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That's awesome. I had the special privilege of being taught by two teachers (Chorus and Band teachers). Definitely was an interesting experience for me. high 4/low 5 on aural (I stopped midway in the minor vocal sightreading though I knew the notes. Then I just held my breath til my time was up because I didn't want to sound like an idiot xD, other than, I would have aced that part) and a 3ish on the written. A kid in my class got a 5 though, that was crazy. I loved the class though, great experience.
I'll stop now. I swear Music Theory has nothing to do with "Superior" Chinese Mothers. I could be wrong though lmao |
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Bump. Well, as much as you can bump in CT.
Anyway. http://blogs.wsj.com/juggle/2011/01/...ds-to-readers/ Amy Chua responds to some readers' questions and comments in this article. This should address some comments made by some of the people here. On a completely different, but slightly relevant note, a friend of mine who knows Chua said that her daughter was admitted to Yale this year, and is likely to attend next year. Congrats to her daughter and the rest of her family. |
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congrats-but-ffs-of-course-she-wouldn't-get-rejected
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That's true, haha. Especially when your parents are both Yale professors. (I think her husband is a Yale professor, not Harvard...)
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Yeah, I had that wrong earlier. He was educated at Harvard but he's a Yale prof.
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I was just assigned to read this article for a class. I am laughing so hard right now.
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I have really mixed feelings about "tiger parenting." I feel like it has its merits but can also be used to justify outright abuse in various regards.
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I'm a big supporter of positive reinforcement. I could never imagine that insulting my child would motivate him or her to do better, and if it did, it would be for the wrong reasons. If my child ended up being an auto mechanic but happy with a good sense of who or she is and a high self esteem, I would much rather prefer this than a child who gets a high paying power job in a law firm but constantly feels he or she is not good enough no matter how much success he or she has earned. I would always encourage my child to do his or her best and give rewards when he or she does and hope that this will encourage success in the future.
Parents are supposed to help guide their children through life, not lay down the bricks and tug a leash so that their children follow a predetermined destiny. |
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Rubin0: The flipside to that argument, though, is that being successful gives you options. Having the freedom and ability to pursue higher realms of intelligence and skill also gives you more control over your life. I feel like it's a delicate balance. I had horrible parents, but I worked my ass off and put myself under VERY extreme, extreme levels of mental and emotional discomfort -- that would make most psychologists cringe -- to get to where I am today . But now life is my oyster at age 24 and I have unlimited freedoms to pursue whatever I wish in life. I'd choose this over a relatively simpler life any day even though there are many things I would change about my upbringing if I could.
There's always this sort of false dialectic where it's either "be a happy, poor artist" or "be a sad, unfulfilled but rich lawyer." I would argue against just how true those statements may be. I feel like too many people assume that "going easy on your kids" leads to happy kids, whereas being a "mean, strict parent" leads to low self-esteem and lack of fulfillment. I know plenty of "starving artist" types and they're always, well, starving and just as miserable as any other. "I wouldn't want to be a rich lawyer anyway" is the sort of self-comforting logic I hear from people that weren't *able* to pursue such an option to begin with. If most were presented with that type of work and a massive paycheck, you can bet many of them would jump ship. Sometimes a "predetermined destiny" isn't a horrible thing if it means guiding your child into a lifestyle that will provide them with the ability to do whatever they want in life, which is a massive privilege/gift. Like any other form of investment, you give up a little early to get a lot more later. You just need to know when to stop investing and when to start cashing out. The key is knowing the difference between tough love and abuse. |
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I don't assume that a person can't be happy as a lawyer. I was merely stating that if my child were happy being an auto mechanic then I would be happy for him. If he were happy being a high paid lawyer then I would be happy for him. I would always encourage education since I view it as one of the most important things for a person to be successful but I'm not going to dictate what my child does once he reaches adulthood. I am making the personal decision to pursue education after college. My mother has always encouraged this but in the end it is completely up to me whether I want to continue going to school.
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1. "You are going to try the special of the day." 2. "Would you be interested in trying our special today? Today's special is poached lobster with a irish-cream butter sauce! (Expression: ^_^)" It is obvious which statement would most likely make the customer cooperate and try the special of the day. This same principal can be applied to parenting. |
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"compromise" is a misleading term in this context. It's not so much "not being too wimpy but not being too strict," which I think most people would interpret "compromise" to imply. Quote:
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The REAL meat of the argument is that parents should also reinforce and accept the choices of their children, with discretion of course (I mean, if my child wanted to be a prostitute, hell no). If my child WANTS to be an automechanic or an artist, I should accept it, even encourage it - while simultaneously explaining the relative pros and cons, and the risks of undertaking such a career path. What the "asian mother" scenario represents is not just providing the best life for your child but adhering to a very strict conception of what "success" and what a "good life" is, and rigorously enforcing that conception upon their children. That is not healthy for a child, unless they happen to agree on that conception of success. In many cases, they don't. |
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There are certain realities to various lifestyles that many people don't realize until they're there. Even in a particular pathway would result in a very happy life down the road as a result of hard work, a child might kick and scream along the way. As Chua argues, nothing is fun until you're good at it. |
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