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All_That_Chaz 12-16-2010 05:36 PM

Suicide.
 
Why do people commit suicide? Is it a "selfish" act? How do you define "selfish?"

Discuss your thoughts concerning this difficult subject here.

awein999 12-16-2010 05:43 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
It's not pointless. People commit suicide for a reason. It's the opposite of pointless. It's an escape. A lot of people who are very sad or have complicated problems/issues do not commit suicide because they don't want to damage loved ones by leaving. In that aspect committing suicide is a selfish act.

UnkownMan 12-16-2010 05:47 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
People commit suicide because they think that it's their last resort. When all else fails, why not end it all?
People who comtemplate suicide obviously have a lack of thought-process. If only they knew there were other ways... ...
RIP Jellygod. :(

Shikari 12-16-2010 05:47 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Plan_Bsk81127 (Post 3371395)
Suicide is completely pointless and stupid imo.

When you:

- Are totally out of money, owing even to God itself;
- Are left by the one you love, maybe without no apparent reason;
- Have absolutely no friends, or no one next to you;
- Have mental illnesses, like depression;
and/or
- Witness someone you love dying.

Believe me, death becomes a temptating option.



Sometimes, you are under such a great amount of pressure that you do can help to handle it, or are experiecing incredibly big frustration in life, that suicide becomes, in your head, an option, an escape valve. Becomes your salvation. So, I don't think suicide as a selfish or "stupid" thing, because, well, people have reasons to do that.

LoneW0lf 12-16-2010 06:07 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikari (Post 3371405)
When you:

- Are totally out of money, owing even to God itself;
- Are left by the one you love, maybe without no apparent reason;
- Have absolutely no friends, or no one next to you;
- Have mental illnesses, like depression;
and/or
- Witness someone you love dying.

Believe me, death becomes a temptating option.

Unless it's all of those above in one situation then it's pretty selfish. It's pretty odd when younger kids do it. I can understand if you are overwhelmed with debt and have no one who is your friend/spouse/any real family. But, if you have any of those relationships, suicide is pretty selfish. At least IMO.

I understand that someone can be going through deep pain and may have a very hard time with life, but when a young kid does it because, my parents hate me, they took away me computer for 2 weeks ////wrists, or, my girlfriend of 2 years broke up with me, I better kill myself.

That is what doesn't make sense to me. Any amount of depression can be overcome as long as you have support from friends/spouse/family. If you are going through a very difficult time in yer and you think about suicide, think about the other options that are available. Any type of therapy can be a very big help, wither it's from a professional or just from a friend. Even just looking at some of the positives you have in yer life should be a big help.

Anyway, I believe suicide is selfish and pretty pointless unless the situation you are in is overwhelming bleak. I only think it should be attempted if you are literally being physically/mentally tortured somewhere where escape is impossible.

That's just my opinion, I look forward to reading everyone's opinion.

Reincarnate 12-16-2010 06:09 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Repost:

Suicide *is* selfish. But so is discrediting the problems of someone who wants to commit suicide. To be selfish is to put your own needs/thoughts/opinions above others -- without empathy.

You may be in quite a lot of pain, but killing yourself means that you are going to tear apart those that are close to you. Losing someone is very, very hard -- emotionally, intellectually, psychologically, financially, logistically, and spiritually.

Similarly, though, it's just as tactless to say "suicide is cowardly and is reserved for those that can't deal with their own problems." Such armchair logic is laughable -- sometimes problems can be so immense to the point where living is suffering. We have a natural inclination to live... you have to be suffering quite hard deep down in order to ever *seriously* attempt to take your own life.

It's selfish on both sides. It's always sad, and it's always a shame. People love us more than we'd care to acknowledge sometimes, and all it takes is a simple reaching out to get the help you need.

kommisar 12-16-2010 06:09 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
for people who were too coward to live life

windsurfer-sp 12-16-2010 06:13 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
This Is Critical Thinking.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wikipedia article on sucide
Mental disorders are frequently present at the time of suicide with estimates from 87%[12] to 98%.[13] When broken down into type mood disorders are present in 30%, substance abuse in 18%, schizophrenia in 14%, and personality disorders in 13.0% of suicides

So lets say 80% of sucides are affected by mental disorders. My brother has a mental disorder and I do not consider his actions to be selfish, he does not intend to be the way he is as such but has a chemical in balance in his brain.

So I would say most suicides are not intentionally selfish due to mental illness.

5.points 12-16-2010 06:14 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Suicide is indeed a selfish act when you think of the hurt in can put into family members and loved ones, and how it can cause other people to think that it was their fault. However a majority of the times people commit suicide, the idea of being missed or causing more damage doesn't cross their minds. Sometimes it can seem like the only way out of emotional pain, physical pain, or anything else that can make someone feel absolutely helpless is to just end it all at once.

As previously stated, suicide can also be caused by more than just pain. Some mental illnesses can cause a person to be isolated, alone, anxious, and helpless. This is why suicide is much more prevalent in people with mental or personality disorders such as Schizophrenia since it can cause a person to think irrationally and it becomes much more easy to talk oneself into suicide.

Edit: Aside from my granddad every family related death I had to deal with has been a suicide. They where all intelligent selfless people but had a single problem that eventually consumed their lives.

windsurfer-sp 12-16-2010 06:16 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Also for anyone personally struggling with the topic, please seek help right away.

http://suicidepreventionaust.org/Get...p/Default.aspx

Without A Contraceptive 12-16-2010 06:17 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
not to sound crass or crude but i feel strongly that suicide is a weak, "selfish" action. sure you may feel that there is no other option, you have nothing left to lose etc. lets just end it... but this is like a slap in the face of those around you that love you. how is it not selfish to kill yourself when the people that love you would do anything to help you? i know that my mother would give her own life to keep me alive, and i bet yours would do the same. suicide not only leaves parents without a child, but sends the message; "hey, you guys didnt do enough".

this and other thoughts will weigh on the minds of all who really loved the person who committed suicide forever. i know this from experience.

even if you are desperate for an escape from the world around you, youre severely depressed, etc. it is pure weakness that leads one to commit suicide. i dont understand how people can say that suicide is not a selfish action... if someone could explain id appreciate it

windsurfer-sp 12-16-2010 06:18 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Is this suppose to be a chit-chat thread about peoples feelings on suicide and how they think it might happen to people or is it suppose to be somewhat of a factual discussion?

Factual things:
Relating personal experience with suicide (attempts etc...)
Having people close to you attempt/commit suicide.
People who study/work with suicidal people.
Research on suicide etc...

Sorry, I guess people spouting bull**** that they think of off the top of there heads and calling it intelligent discussion isn't my cup of tea.

Reincarnate 12-16-2010 06:27 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3371426)
not to sound crass or crude but i feel strongly that suicide is a weak, "selfish" action. sure you may feel that there is no other option, you have nothing left to lose etc. lets just end it... but this is like a slap in the face of those around you that love you. how is it not selfish to kill yourself when the people that love you would do anything to help you? i know that my mother would give her own life to keep me alive, and i bet yours would do the same. suicide not only leaves parents without a child, but sends the message; "hey, you guys didnt do enough".

this and other thoughts will weigh on the minds of all who really loved the person who committed suicide forever. i know this from experience.

even if you are desperate for an escape from the world around you, youre severely depressed, etc. it is pure weakness that leads one to commit suicide. i dont understand how people can say that suicide is not a selfish action... if someone could explain id appreciate it

where it gets complicated is where the observations are legitimate. Consider someone who has a family that legitimately DOESN'T care about their wellbeing and WOULDN'T give their own lives to keep that person alive. Consider someone who may have few to no close friends/family or may be experiencing severe medical or financial troubles. Perhaps they screwed up horribly in school or can't find work etc. Perhaps these problems keep cropping up even with a healthy dose of help.

When is suicide "acceptable"? Where do we draw the line?

Zageron 12-16-2010 06:28 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Fact:
If you frequent TGB, this forum is not for you.

I've known suicidal people. It isn't very fun to hang around them, but the more you do the more you understand what they're going through. I've never had one 'go' on me, so I don't know what that is like. But they aren't happy people...

Kesshutsu 12-16-2010 06:32 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
The only way I could see suicide as personally valid is if you somehow live through it. What meaning does suicide have then? As a meaningless act, there's no reason to do or not do it, or anything else.

Shikari 12-16-2010 06:44 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneW0lf (Post 3371411)
Unless it's all of those above in one situation then it's pretty selfish. It's pretty odd when younger kids do it. I can understand if you are overwhelmed with debt and have no one who is your friend/spouse/any real family. But, if you have any of those relationships, suicide is pretty selfish. At least IMO.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3371414)
You may be in quite a lot of pain, but killing yourself means that you are going to tear apart those that are close to you. Losing someone is very, very hard -- emotionally, intellectually, psychologically, financially, logistically, and spiritually.

Well, my response is:


Sometimes, it's so much pressure that one just can't handle, and he/she just can't think about anyone's feelings. In this case, in my opinion, it's more like despair than selfishness, because he/she just want to end it all, and only this, nothing else.

Imagine a 15, 16 years old, or even younger, with a "weak" mind and feelings, passing through the end of a relationship that he/she thought it would be forever (I know, nothing is forever, specially at this age, but who never felt like this before?), or the divorce of his/her parents, or the death of a friend, or even these three situations together. As I said before, death becomes a salvation in these cases.

Yieldsign 12-16-2010 06:44 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kesshutsu (Post 3371443)
The only way I could see suicide as personally valid is if you somehow live through it. What meaning does suicide have then? As a meaningless act, there's no reason to do or not do it, or anything else.

uhm what

I suppose the "meaning" in it for its perpetrator is that the onslaught of torment/pain ends.

not sure why something has to have "meaning" (which in itself is a really dubious term; i don't even know what you mean by that honestly) to be "valid" (and again, what does "valid" mean here? does valid mean meaningful?)

darkshark 12-16-2010 06:48 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Several people stated that suicide is selfish because the people around you love you and would be more than willing to help you...what if they're not? What if you're going through a horrible emotional or physical battle, and you literally have no one to turn to. Say your mom abandons you, she hates you. Your dad died. You have no friends. You spend each day in solitude and do nothing but think about the horrible things happening in your life. No one would care. Would you end it? After all, people don't show they love you until you're gone.

I'm playing the devils advocate here, I don't feel as though suicide should EVER be an option, unless you're already on your death bed or are in some sort of vegetative state.

UnkownMan 12-16-2010 06:51 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
People keep saying "well what if s/he has no friends". Maybe if they stop being a whiny bitch and actually talk to people, they'd get some.
Apparently, people don't see these things. They don't have any money? They can get a minimum wage job. No friends? Stop complaining and talk to people, maybe at the minimum wage job. Parents neglecting you? Stand up for yourself and try to communicate with them. They'd love to hear of how you m ade friends at your minum wage job.
I've seen this stuff multiple times, and it's just nothing to me now.

Shikari 12-16-2010 06:52 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UnkownMan (Post 3371463)
Maybe if they stop being a whiny bitch and actually talk to people, they'd get some.

Nice advice there, man. If I was a "whiny bitch", I would thank you. Seriously.

UnkownMan 12-16-2010 06:54 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shikari (Post 3371464)
Nice advice there, man. If I was a "whiny bitch", I would thank you. Seriously.

I fixed the original post.

5.points 12-16-2010 06:54 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UnkownMan (Post 3371463)
People keep saying "well what if s/he has no friends". Maybe if they stop being a whiny bitch and actually talk to people, they'd get some.

With some personality disorders maintaining any kind of relationship is near impossible. As Darkshark said, would if all your friends and or family have died?

Kesshutsu 12-16-2010 06:55 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yieldsign (Post 3371457)
uhm what

I suppose the "meaning" in it for its perpetrator is that the onslaught of torment/pain ends.

not sure why something has to have "meaning" (which in itself is a really dubious term; i don't even know what you mean by that honestly) to be "valid" (and again, what does "valid" mean here? does valid mean meaningful?)

Believing I don't know anything about pain is hard.
Knowing I don't know anything about pain, might involve experiencing some pain.

But as for knowing about death, what does that have to do with experiencing pain?

UnkownMan 12-16-2010 06:56 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I have a personality disorder, yet I still have friends, because I know how to overcome. It's people who don't make an effort to, because they're all sad that let it get to them. It's not hard.

EDIT: I'm trying to explain this best i can without sounding like a douche, so I apologize if I am.

Shikari 12-16-2010 06:59 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
It's not that easy for them, UnkownMan. Potentials suicides don't have mental "strength" to brace themselves and even try to keep on living. They're so destroyed that they just can't get up. So, telling them to "get a minimum wage job" or friends is useless.

5.points 12-16-2010 07:03 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by UnkownMan (Post 3371472)
I have a personality disorder, yet I still have friends, because I know how to overcome. It's people who don't make an effort to, because they're all sad that let it get to them. It's not hard.

I said some personality disorder and I mean MOST. People with Schizotypal personally disorder for example. They live completely isolated lives and personally disorder are extremely hard to do anything about, even with therapy and medications. It's more than just sadness.

TC_Halogen 12-16-2010 07:05 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravity Kitten (Post 3371441)
if your pen0r is small, it's okay.

wai m i not ded yet 8-)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravity Kitten (Post 3371447)
o

UTHINKIMGAYBRO?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravity Kitten (Post 3371451)
this is a thread about suicide
im not trying to become an hero.
-__

...if you're incapable of thinking critically (or at all), you really should stray away from a forum that asks you to take a legitimate stance.

Onto the topic of suicide - I want to stem off of Marcus' question here:

Quote:

When is suicide "acceptable"? Where do we draw the line?
A major problem with this question is the fact that people pass off the potential predicaments that a person could have been in, and use the same general answer saying that it's selfish and that they could have talked to x people.

When a situation like this happens, I find it very difficult to believe that those who commit suicide can actually talk to someone, otherwise they probably would not proceed with the action in the first place. If there was a shoulder for a person to seriously and legitimately cry on, they would probably take it. It is also the very same reason why those who are typically "close" with the victim are in complete shock and agony because they never felt or sensed that they could commit such an action. It almost seems like the extreme pain within a person's mind is so much that a proper idea would be to physically (and permanently) eliminate yourself from everything else around you in an effort to stop anymore pain from entering your life. While this thought seamlessly fits into the definition of selfish, it's also logical at a basic level.

Now, I personally don't condone suicide in any form, because it's almost always true - a person who is in such pain usually will have SOMEONE they can turn to; they just do not realize it.

Quote:

The only way I could see suicide as personally valid is if you somehow live through it. What meaning does suicide have then? As a meaningless act, there's no reason to do or not do it, or anything else.
By definition, this would no longer be a suicide. HOWEVER, I do understand where you're trying to go with this idea - if a person were to inflict so much pain to themselves only to not die, what would they do then? It would be meaningless in a sense, but I don't think it would detract future thoughts of suicide. If anything, it might make them even worse.

EDIT: Darkshark pretty much summed it up the same way I did before I finished my post.

mhss1992 12-16-2010 07:07 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
People always do the things they consider most satisfactory. If they're truly depressed or have no expectation of a happy life, they might consider this to be the best thing to do, as they probably see their pain as something absolutely pointless and not worth enduring. In other words: stupid reasons.

Reincarnate 12-16-2010 07:12 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by darkshark (Post 3371460)
What if you're going through a horrible emotional or physical battle, and you literally have no one to turn to. Say your mom abandons you, she hates you. Your dad died. You have no friends. You spend each day in solitude and do nothing but think about the horrible things happening in your life. No one would care. Would you end it? After all, people don't show they love you until you're gone.

darkshark: This description actually applies to me. I've always had some sort of emotional/physical struggle going on -- my mom abandoned the family and my father was killed. I had friends, but in many cases, they were surface-level -- and my true friends were few in number. I also went into a fairly large debt (luckily I am able to afford it with my job and everything) because of the stuff that went on with my family. Friends may be present, but they may be too uninvolved or scared to GET involved. They may not be able to really provide much solace. Counselors may come across as mere venting-receptacles. Even if you reach out to those closest to you, sometimes it just isn't enough.

I've contemplated suicide a few times, to be honest -- but in recent years, those thoughts have gone away as I've gained more friends, a girlfriend, a new life, an education, revisited hobbies, etc. Life is good again.

During those dark times when I've felt alone and burdened, suicide felt like a VERY attractive, viable option. When you feel very alone in the world with nobody who can empathize with your way of thinking -- or when everything in your life seems to be out of your control and going downhill -- it can be very tempting to just put an end to your misery, especially if it's chronic. But the thing that kept me from ever doing it was the notion that pressures are often temporary. Whenever things get dark, they always get better later if you are willing to reach out and either get help or work to improve your situation in some way.

5.points 12-16-2010 07:22 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3371483)
People always do the things they consider most satisfactory. If they're truly depressed or have no expectation of a happy life, they might consider this to be the best thing to do, as they probably see their pain as something absolutely pointless and not worth enduring. In other words: stupid reasons.

Would about people with drug addictions?

My aunt was severely addicted to narcotics and went through several rehab programs and none helped her. When she committed suicide she left a short note about how the drugs were going to kill her anyway. Drugs that are dangerously addictive can bring any strong minded person down to nothing. Once you've gone so far, you're literally left with nothing, no money, no friends, no one wants to be around you, you most likely never to get a job, no self confidence whatsoever.

I know that things like drug addictions start with the foolish action to start but what I'm trying to say is that suicide is caused by more just depression and sadness.

Oni-Paranoia 12-16-2010 07:24 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Here's an argument:

I had friends, I had a home, had a mother who cared deeply and a sister who was always there for me. I mingled with the girl next door for about half a year until **** hits the fan and after a week or so of cutting I really felt that it really wasn't for me. But even with all those resources, I attempted suicide. Now I'm curious to see if anyone can figure out why. I was 13 at the time*

Yieldsign 12-16-2010 07:37 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Kesshutsu (Post 3371470)
Believing I don't know anything about pain is hard.
Knowing I don't know anything about pain, might involve experiencing some pain.

But as for knowing about death, what does that have to do with experiencing pain?

sorry, I really can't deal with your incoherency. try to articulate your thoughts in a way that makes sense, because honestly this doesn't

Yieldsign 12-16-2010 07:40 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
and here's my stance:

regardless of whether or not suicide is selfish, it is always acceptable/permissible, and our legislation should reflect that. in the end, there is only one person who has control over his own life, and that is himself.

i think the implications of prohibiting suicide are frightening. you're essentially legislating "psychological harm" which is, at least for NOW, far too dubious and arbitrary to incorporate into law in such a manner.

Kesshutsu 12-16-2010 07:48 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I agree.

5.points 12-16-2010 07:54 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yieldsign (Post 3371507)
and here's my stance:

regardless of whether or not suicide is selfish, it is always acceptable/permissible, and our legislation should reflect that. in the end, there is only one person who has control over his own life, and that is himself.

i think the implications of prohibiting suicide are frightening. you're essentially legislating "psychological harm" which is, at least for NOW, far too dubious and arbitrary to incorporate into law in such a manner.

Of course it's "permissable". It's impossible and stupid to think that you can legally prohibit a person from doing something to themselves.

Don't you at least think there should be as much prevention from suicide as possible?

Yieldsign 12-16-2010 08:07 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
you'd be surprised at how many people DON'T think it's stupid. It was only until the 90s that all US states annulled their laws concerning suicide... not to mention the entire religious population that has a strong stance on suicide.

I also certainly do NOT think it is impossible to think that you can legally prohibit a person from doing something to themselves - drug legislation?

Anyway, of course I think suicide should be discouraged and proper counseling and psychiatric evaluation/care should be given to someone who is suicidal - but I'm not sure that it should be compulsory. It's a murky issue... I haven't given too much thought on the extent that compulsory prevention should play.

5.points 12-16-2010 08:17 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

I also certainly do NOT think it is impossible to think that you can legally prohibit a person from doing something to themselves - drug legislation?
I suppose you could say that there are laws against doing things that involve doing things to oneself. However, you can't physically control the actions that anyone dose unless you are in some kind of institution and/or being constantly watched. Most drug laws prohibit the possession of said drugs.

Yieldsign 12-16-2010 08:35 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I agree - you're mostly preaching to the choir, because I don't think suicide legislation is at all sensible... I only wanted to make the point that many people do.

Aldentron 12-16-2010 08:49 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I have been diagnosed with bipolar depression for almost two years now, of course I always had it.

To this day, almost every time I run out of my medicine, I think of suicide. I think that it would be a selfish thing to do. Who knows what I can accomplish in the future? To take my own life would be shutting doors in the face of people that possibly need me.

Psychiatry is educated guess work. While you may have a prescription from your doctor, those specific pills or that specific dosage may not be the right one for you. Luckily it didn't take long for my doctor to figure out the right medications and dosages for me, and I feel much better when I take them. If you find yourself seeing a psychiatrist and are prescribed medicine that doesn't seem to work, don't give up. Just make sure your psychiatrist knows that you still feel depressed and they will likely try something different.

On another note, would you consider martyr-ism or sacrifice a form of suicide? That is the only way I can see suicide as not being selfish, as in leaping in front of a bullet to save a friend or push a child out of the way of a speeding car.

mhss1992 12-16-2010 09:03 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 5.points (Post 3371490)
Would about people with drug addictions?

My aunt was severely addicted to narcotics and went through several rehab programs and none helped her. When she committed suicide she left a short note about how the drugs were going to kill her anyway. Drugs that are dangerously addictive can bring any strong minded person down to nothing. Once you've gone so far, you're literally left with nothing, no money, no friends, no one wants to be around you, you most likely never to get a job, no self confidence whatsoever.

I know that things like drug addictions start with the foolish action to start but what I'm trying to say is that suicide is caused by more just depression and sadness.

How exactly does that not qualify into the things I described?
She decided to commit duicide because she believed that there was no hope left, thinking it was pointless to keep trying.

mhss1992 12-16-2010 09:14 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3371486)
darkshark: This description actually applies to me. I've always had some sort of emotional/physical struggle going on -- my mom abandoned the family and my father was killed. I had friends, but in many cases, they were surface-level -- and my true friends were few in number. I also went into a fairly large debt (luckily I am able to afford it with my job and everything) because of the stuff that went on with my family. Friends may be present, but they may be too uninvolved or scared to GET involved. They may not be able to really provide much solace. Counselors may come across as mere venting-receptacles. Even if you reach out to those closest to you, sometimes it just isn't enough.

I've contemplated suicide a few times, to be honest -- but in recent years, those thoughts have gone away as I've gained more friends, a girlfriend, a new life, an education, revisited hobbies, etc. Life is good again.

During those dark times when I've felt alone and burdened, suicide felt like a VERY attractive, viable option. When you feel very alone in the world with nobody who can empathize with your way of thinking -- or when everything in your life seems to be out of your control and going downhill -- it can be very tempting to just put an end to your misery, especially if it's chronic. But the thing that kept me from ever doing it was the notion that pressures are often temporary. Whenever things get dark, they always get better later if you are willing to reach out and either get help or work to improve your situation in some way.

Wow.
I guess those difficulties somehow made you overcompensate to become what you are today, right?

My past was considerably less difficult. Just lots of bullies, bullies, bullies and no friends. I still have to deal with my crazy mother, though. Nowadays, I still have a certain trauma of hearing people laugh behind me (even though they're almost never laughing at me) and feel humiliated very easily when people are better than me in some way. Anyway... I don't even know why I'm telling you this.
I never thought about committing suicide, though.

5.points 12-16-2010 09:32 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3371597)
How exactly does that not qualify into the things I described?
She decided to commit duicide because she believed that there was no hope left, thinking it was pointless to keep trying.

What I was trying to say is there are understandable reasons. In your post when you say how suicides are when people see their pain as not worth enduring and it's pretty much from "stupid reasons" you seem to not understand when kind of pain these people go through.

I completely agree that a fair share of suicides are from people who give up easily, but humans can only take so much pain, sometimes suicide can seem so tempting. Its something you wont understand until you actually get that low.

mhss1992 12-16-2010 09:40 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 5.points (Post 3371623)
What I was trying to say is there are understandable reasons. In your post when you say how suicides are when people see their pain as not worth enduring and it's pretty much from "stupid reasons" you seem to not understand when kind of pain these people go through.

I completely agree that a fair share of suicides are from people who give up easily, but humans can only take so much pain, sometimes suicide can seem so tempting. Its something you wont understand until you actually get that low.

Suicide is the easy choice. I believe it's always possible to improve the situation somehow... Unless I became tetraplegic. I guess I'd rather die in this particular case. That doesn't mean it isn't a stupid decision, though... Who knows what one could still intellectually achieve in this situation?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yieldsign (Post 3371507)
and here's my stance:

regardless of whether or not suicide is selfish, it is always acceptable/permissible, and our legislation should reflect that. in the end, there is only one person who has control over his own life, and that is himself.

i think the implications of prohibiting suicide are frightening. you're essentially legislating "psychological harm" which is, at least for NOW, far too dubious and arbitrary to incorporate into law in such a manner.

I have to agree.

However, there are some bad circumstances... What if the person wants to commit suicide due to some crazy religious belief or some lie other people convinced them of? What if they're at a really altered mental state when they make this decision? They could look back (if still alive) and realize how absurd it was.

It's not a simple matter...

BethanyBangs 12-16-2010 09:45 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
People commit suicide because there's something in their life that's bothering them, and they probably feel that they can't tell anyone about it.

An example is my stepsister, she was depressed for a while, and she didn't text me for days when she was at her mom's house. Weeks when she came back she told me she tried to kill herself. That she took about 30 painkillers and passed out. Threw up and peed blood. But she didn't die. So i guess it wasn't her time..

And i think it is selfish. Because they don't think about the people that care for them.
Just my honest opinion.

5.points 12-16-2010 09:47 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3371634)
Suicide is the easy choice. I believe it's always possible to improve the situation somehow... Unless I became tetraplegic. I guess I'd rather die in this particular case. That doesn't mean it isn't a stupid decision, though... Who knows what one could still intellectually achieve in this situation?

It's unlikely that you'll achieve anything intellectual while addicted to narcotics and nothing to your name.

I completely agree with what you're saying, you just don't seem to be looking at all the circumstances. You say you would rather die then be tetraplegic? That's exactly what I was saying.

mhss1992 12-16-2010 10:00 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by 5.points (Post 3371649)
It's unlikely that you'll achieve anything intellectual while addicted to narcotics and nothing to your name.

Yeah, well, I was talking about the tetraplegic case.

Izzy 12-16-2010 10:05 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Your life is your own. Being able to choose for yourself what you want to do with your life should be your own freedom.

5.points 12-16-2010 10:08 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3371665)
Yeah, well, I was talking about the tetraplegic case.

But it's still unlikely that you would even survive in the case which I stated.

Also, in the case I stated, starting the addiction was the "stupid decision", suicide was the result.

who_cares973 12-16-2010 11:48 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

When is suicide "acceptable"? Where do we draw the line?
im pretty sure this has been mentioned already but if not then this is what i think

when the pain caused by living outweighs the negative effects on loved ones that would be caused by that persons death. when this point is reached that is when imo someone contemplate suicide. so say someone has had horrible luck, causing strain in the families relationship with one another and also becoming a financial burden to the people that person loved. in the persons mind thinking about all this they could come to the conclusion that everyone would be better of if that person was dead. after these initial suicidal thoughts it would really only take one more misfortune to tip the scale causing that person to commit suicide. so going with this i dont think suicide is selfish just a wrong mindset when analyzing problems

DossarLX ODI 12-17-2010 12:02 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
A question for you guys: What's so bad about being alone? I personally like quiet time by myself. In fact, living a life of solitude with internet is all I need - "going outside" with friends (read: acquaintances) for me is just a waste of time since it's not really fun and sometimes they just like to drink and smoke.

Do you guys like quiet time by yourselves? Why would being alone make you depressed? Technically I'm alone practically all the time except when I'm in school or there's something my parents want me to do or some other event like a vacation - I'm in my room reading, resting, doing bicep exercises, on the laptop, homework, whatever else. I don't have any true friends in real life to talk to but I am not depressed/lonely. If anything, online is where all my REAL friends are at, and even then that's only a few.

who_cares973 12-17-2010 12:06 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
you have friends online. while you may not be with people physically you still arent alone. its when you feel like you have no one at all that depression kicks in and suicide thoughts linger in your head

Without A Contraceptive 12-17-2010 12:43 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3371819)
A question for you guys: What's so bad about being alone? I personally like quiet time by myself. In fact, living a life of solitude with internet is all I need - "going outside" with friends (read: acquaintances) for me is just a waste of time since it's not really fun and sometimes they just like to drink and smoke.

Do you guys like quiet time by yourselves? Why would being alone make you depressed? Technically I'm alone practically all the time except when I'm in school or there's something my parents want me to do or some other event like a vacation - I'm in my room reading, resting, doing bicep exercises, on the laptop, homework, whatever else. I don't have any true friends in real life to talk to but I am not depressed/lonely. If anything, online is where all my REAL friends are at, and even then that's only a few.

on the real tho, theres nothing wrong with enjoying being alone. i spend a lot of time alone. i like to zone out making music alone, eat at restaurants alone, watch tv alone, etc.. doesnt mean i dont enjoy my friends tho, god damn. get real du, get some friends. drinking and smoking are parts of life. sack up and have a drink

Shikari 12-17-2010 01:07 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3371819)
A question for you guys: What's so bad about being alone?

None, when you don't need someone to cheer you up. And, sometimes, it's hard to do it by yourself.


Edit:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Glucuronolactone (Post 3371882)
Where did the "thinking" in this thread go?

Suicide is still an uncomfortable topic, as you can see in the divergences of opinions here, so the "thinking" goes in (trying to) come up with a rational answer for this. Plenty of people here know someone who commited suicide, so it's normal for them to try understand what's up with a suicide's mind.



Btw, I know your question was ironic, but my reply is here anyway.

qqwref 12-17-2010 01:33 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yieldsign (Post 3371862)
what a disgustingly boring, apathetic, and meaningless life.

Right. It's boring to do something you enjoy if other people aren't physically there while you do it, and nothing is more meaningful than smoking, drinking, and sharing small talk. And of course, no skills or knowledge you acquire on the internet could ever be worth anything.

Yieldsign 12-17-2010 02:03 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by qqwref (Post 3371902)
Right. It's boring to do something you enjoy if other people aren't physically there while you do it, and nothing is more meaningful than smoking, drinking, and sharing small talk. And of course, no skills or knowledge you acquire on the internet could ever be worth anything.

yeah because the only things you can do with other people are drinking and smoking and small talk it's not like people find love and connect with other people on a deep level or anything

seriously **** that whole "inter human experience" thing it's totally worthless when you can just sit around on the computer all day playing arrow games and making posts on a forum on topics that don't apply to yourself because you don't have a real life

seriously, i have to say that you're either lying to yourself or joking when you condone that. it's one thing to be somewhat solitary; i am extremely solitary and require a lot of alone time. it's another thing to keep yourself cooped inside hunched over a computer denying the basic human instinct for relations with other people.

TC_Halogen 12-17-2010 02:10 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3371819)
A question for you guys: What's so bad about being alone? I personally like quiet time by myself. In fact, living a life of solitude with internet is all I need - "going outside" with friends (read: acquaintances) for me is just a waste of time since it's not really fun and sometimes they just like to drink and smoke.

Do you guys like quiet time by yourselves? Why would being alone make you depressed? Technically I'm alone practically all the time except when I'm in school or there's something my parents want me to do or some other event like a vacation - I'm in my room reading, resting, doing bicep exercises, on the laptop, homework, whatever else. I don't have any true friends in real life to talk to but I am not depressed/lonely. If anything, online is where all my REAL friends are at, and even then that's only a few.

Your definition of loneliness doesn't quite fit the typical desolation of being -truly- alone. As you've said, you use the computer/internet as an escape from those who differ from your own opinions, morals, hobbies, etc. The issue in question here is those who truly have no one to turn to simply because no one can comprehend the obstacles that their life entails, and discussion of it would be pointless because of the lack of understanding. You also have those who don't want to share their issues due to insecurities within themselves, which adds even more of an issue because even the closest of people might question you for something you do.

A person spending their spare time to better themselves (as Marcus had mentioned before) will do them better in the long run because they're striving for something that will eventually bring them to a better position. If you're alone when doing your typical hobbies, it's alright because not everyone shares the same interests as you and no one is expected to do as much. However, if the issue becomes a lack of understanding of others (almost like an implied excommunication with the rest of the world), it could be a lot more problematic.

EDIT:
Quote:

Originally Posted by Yieldsign (Post 3371927)
yeah because the only things you can do with other people are drinking and smoking and small talk it's not like people find love and connect with other people on a deep level or anything

seriously **** that whole "inter human experience" thing it's totally worthless when you can just sit around on the computer all day playing arrow games and making posts on a forum on topics that don't apply to yourself because you don't have a real life

seriously, i have to say that you're either lying to yourself or joking when you condone that. it's one thing to be somewhat solitary; i am extremely solitary and require a lot of alone time. it's another thing to keep yourself cooped inside hunched over a computer denying the basic human instinct for relations with other people.

As aggressively put as this is, I do have to agree with this somewhat. Entirely relying on artificial communication rather than physical communication will not entirely rid of your problems, but it may serve as a temporary escape from the problems, which is all someone needs to get themselves in the right direction (or, alternatively, just prolong the inevitable).

Rubin0 12-17-2010 02:21 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Survival is the most basic instinct of every living organism. If you think of it from the perspective of a person who is suffering from deep and chronic depression, survival may be too painful, so in their mind suicide is a kind of survival through death. When our limbs become too infected to function, we remove them. If a mind is attacking the body, constantly infecting the body with negativity, the only way to save himself/herself is to stop the brain from functioning.

Reincarnate 12-17-2010 09:14 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3371819)
A question for you guys: What's so bad about being alone? I personally like quiet time by myself. In fact, living a life of solitude with internet is all I need - "going outside" with friends (read: acquaintances) for me is just a waste of time since it's not really fun and sometimes they just like to drink and smoke.

Do you guys like quiet time by yourselves? Why would being alone make you depressed? Technically I'm alone practically all the time except when I'm in school or there's something my parents want me to do or some other event like a vacation - I'm in my room reading, resting, doing bicep exercises, on the laptop, homework, whatever else. I don't have any true friends in real life to talk to but I am not depressed/lonely. If anything, online is where all my REAL friends are at, and even then that's only a few.

Here's the thing -- humans are social creatures. We've evolved that way -- we feel happier and are generally more successful at any metric we choose when we're with others. Especially if you read Gladwell's book Outliers, it's all the more apparent that nobody ever makes it alone.

Of course, there's a difference between living an introverted/solitary lifestyle and being alone. You can live a solitary lifestyle and still have people to talk to when you wish -- people who can help you. When you're suffering alone, you have no one else to help you but yourself. You may even have friends you can talk to, but none of them may be close enough to really empathize with you. This can be a problem if a mind is so lost and confused that it justifies/talks itself into an irrational framework that ultimately results in suicide.

I don't think there's anything unhealthy about having friends online, but you also have to keep in mind that online communities are temporary. People come and go -- and eventually leave for good. I've been a member of plenty of online communities, but the people I encounter are only a part of my communicable life for a few years. It's hard to make "good friends" in such a small time. Are you okay with the notion of temporary friendships?

Mechablob 12-17-2010 12:26 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
(Sorry if what I'm about to say has already been suggested in this thread) It's obviously a difficult subject to discuss: people are going to think those that have committed, or tried to commit suicide are selfish, however, you can easily claim that those that want the person suffering with depression to not kill themself is also selfish. I can understand why people may feel both concepts are selfish - why would somebody want to lower the morale of their family and friends; why would somebody want another person to live on suffering (be the reason to the suicide depression or a terminal illness)?

When you consider both of these, it's difficult to conclude if suicide is selfish or not - well, I think so anyway. Maybe one side should be more accepting of whatever course is taken?

Maybe the depressed person has no other worthwhile contacts? Let's assume the family have all passed away and that the friendships have disbanded (I'm taking into consideration what UnkownMan has said) - surely that isn't the end as that allows many opportunities (meeting new people and join different communities, for example). I am aware that the temptation of not trying to achieve anything may seem strong, but as the clichéd saying goes - and it's cliché due to popularity and relevance, not just because it's "naff" - "there's light at the end of the tunnel."

jchinzilla 12-17-2010 01:42 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Rubin0 (Post 3371948)
If a mind is attacking the body, constantly infecting the body with negativity, the only way to save himself/herself is to stop the brain from functioning.

that is not the only way. the brain is said to have plasticity, meaning that it's flexible in its ability to change and adapt to new/different modes of thinking.

what i would like to say is that most of us are too busy in comparing ourselves to others. we think "if i only had more money i could finally do so-and-so," or "if i had a lover i could experience such joy." while there is nothing truly wrong about these desires there is something screwy to me about needing more things/people just to experience some fleeting gratification.

and that's what should be realized: that everything is fleeting, it will pass, everything is impermanent excluding the constant flow of stillness. OKAY so that was my cliche amalgamation of trite platitudes resulting in redundancy. however, i still stand by this realization (it is not my own - people have been giving this message for millennia)

ANYWAYS, i'm not sure what else i should say at the moment but just know that it is possible to change how you look at the phenomena that surrounds us all

DossarLX ODI 12-17-2010 03:08 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3372080)
Here's the thing -- humans are social creatures. We've evolved that way -- we feel happier and are generally more successful at any metric we choose when we're with others. Especially if you read Gladwell's book Outliers, it's all the more apparent that nobody ever makes it alone.

I definitely can see what you're saying, but at the same time that goes into the concept of success. Many things I find as successes are completely useless to others IRL and things others find as something to be prideful about I don't care. For example, I don't care about being a rich person but I'm not slacking off, yet I've seen many people obsessed about possessing much wealth and wanting to be like famous celebrities. When I'm with others, I am restricted on what I can do or say so I wind up just feeling even less safe. That's the wonderful thing about the internet - you can ask a question or make a statement anonymously or without immediate threat (interrupting in the middle of talking, fear of the person attacking you physically, etc).

Quote:

Of course, there's a difference between living an introverted/solitary lifestyle and being alone. You can live a solitary lifestyle and still have people to talk to when you wish -- people who can help you. When you're suffering alone, you have no one else to help you but yourself. You may even have friends you can talk to, but none of them may be close enough to really empathize with you. This can be a problem if a mind is so lost and confused that it justifies/talks itself into an irrational framework that ultimately results in suicide.
This is an interesting point you bring up - I have a loner mindset and that's what has made me "successful" in life. That is, actually appreciating my life and what I have rather than being depressed and having to worry about what others think of me (this goes back to your "social beings" point - I also have to consider what others think of me). I guess it has to do with me having trouble showing affection yet at the same time being able to be respectful of others' opinions. I've been able to help myself so I don't have a need for acquiantances except for anyone that's like "HURRRR you have no friends you have no life loser", but I really couldn't care less.

Quote:

I don't think there's anything unhealthy about having friends online, but you also have to keep in mind that online communities are temporary. People come and go -- and eventually leave for good. I've been a member of plenty of online communities, but the people I encounter are only a part of my communicable life for a few years. It's hard to make "good friends" in such a small time. Are you okay with the notion of temporary friendships?
Oh yes, definitely - I mean, it's only been 2 years since I started using AIM. All the guys I talk to on AIM are "good friends", and DragonsFury is the best online community I've seen in terms of tolerance and respect. Even if they're temporary, it's better than a long distrustful relationship like I have with my parents. I don't feel safe at all talking to my parents or brothers, yet I am comfortable with talking about things online in private - even then there are things I don't mention.

Spenner 12-17-2010 04:46 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I have bipolar disorder, and throughout the last year I've developed schizophrenia.

There are many times when I feel dead inside, even when nothing is apparently wrong. The brain chemicals alter the thought processes that should be positive into something negative-- thinking about friends I have; in that state of mind, every negative feeling is grown enormously. I am sometimes social, but not as social as I should be, and that aids the downwards progression of a mood, as well as every little thing-- how I don't talk enough, how I'm dyslexic, how I'm alone and will never have a sustainable relationship; it all hits hard.

But there is so much more certainty in life than death... I don't even KNOW if there would be an ability to feel positive at all, for sure, in death. So I've stuck it to myself to, no matter what, remain alive and just experience whatever life puts at me.

In more recent times, this has been interesting, because with schizophrenia I've partitioned myself into two or three. I have my mind, which I view as an aura, which sees every aspect of me in a third person view. When I do feel extremely down, to the point where I'm sick to my stomach and physically paralyzed, I dissociate on an extreme level, to where it's basically an out of body experience (well, typically they are actual OBE's. Music helps it as well)

But enough elaborating on that fact... tl;dr, my individual way of coping with the need to escape, is to escape. It's not a very healthy way, and I'm a screwed up person IRL because of it (schizophrenia is not a minor thing...), but I'm happy with it.

I don't know if any of that made any sense at all, but whatever. /contribution.

Nobody should commit suicide. If anything, go run away and go camp out in a beautiful place out in the middle of nowhere with nature until you starve to death. The atmosphere might encourage you to continue living, if you're one for the beauty of nature. Think of what you'll be missing!!!!!

Cavernio 12-20-2010 12:13 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
As someone who would be dead if I had known about how lethal some drugs are, I definitely have an opinion about suicide.

It is not wrong. It is selfish for someone else to tell you you're being selfish for wanting your pain to end, whether they love you or not. For me, talking to someone did absolutely nothing. I had friends listen to me, I had councillors listen to me. So what? It didn't accomplish anything. Ah, I'm hanging out with friends, they're trying really ****ing hard to make me laugh, and I don't find it funny. I had support from people, but that didn't change how I felt most of the time. Social situations stressed me out because I had to put on an act. I avoided talking to my parents because, after seeing them flip at my sister and getting angry at her for crying about stuff all the time. I avoided them as much as possible, and they flipped at me for doing that. My mom felt like I was using her because I avoided her, but I avoided her because if I was really going to be myself around her, I would be crying most of the time, and that would make her even MORE hurt. Where do you get the justification to call people like ME selfish, when I was trying to hurt people as little as possible? Of course all that stuff with my parents just made me hurt more, but that wasn't the cause, or my feelings wouldn't have gone away if they had been understanding, because like I said, I had great friends who I tried to lean on.

Honestly, sit down and think about it. Say you know you're mentally ****ed up, and you know that it's going to be a challenge for you to just do everyday things for the rest of your life, because really, the prognosis for most mental illnesses are still ****. Even though I've been happier the past 4-6 months than I have been since I was 16, I have to face the fact that I will likely become depressed again. And I'm a good case. I can basically look after myself. I've had very few bouts where pulling myself out of bed to shower requires so much strength and effort that I just can't do it. But there are so many out there who can't, and who struggle and cry over that fact among a myriad of other things. What if they're spouse or parents have been looking after them for 10 or more years, and they just aren't getting better? How would YOU like to be a parent looking after your 30 year old, or 40 year old kid because they're too depressed, because they lie in bed and CRY all day. At some point, it is not selfish to end your own life. Please tell me how this is illogical and I'm not thinking right, because clearly, being someone who's wanted so much to die at so many points in their life, I was obviously not being LOGICAL, was obviously not thinking right. **** it pisses me off what some people say to the mentally ill; they choose to blame them saying they're just not trying hard enough (completely IGNORING the fact that a symptom of depression is to take away your will power); they call them illogical, and they choose to think that there IS help, possibly because the reality simply hurts too much to acknowledge it, or most likely because drug companies really just sell hope. (Even psychiatrists acknowledge their treatments work about as well as placebo most of the time, through their very own studies.)

I'll tell you this, the same thought about doing the same thing, like going on vacation, depending on my mood, will either make the thought of going on vacation immediately good, or immediately bad. And I think this is an example at least a few of you can relate to. I can analyze all the **** out of it as much as I want, and give myself a bullet point list of all the good reasons going on vacation is fun (many of which would be the reason I'd have made those reservations in the first place), but that doesn't change the way I feel about it at that point in time. Furthermore, on those same lines, yeah, life isn't always bad, even when depressed, there are moments of calm, niceness. But along the same lines, there's always going to be pain in the future too. To choose to ignore one or the other IS being illogical, although choosing to ignore most of the negatives will likely give you a lot more happiness. But again, depending on what your initial feelings are about something, its very, very hard to alter that. If I'm happy, there are rainbows ahead, if i'm sad, there's storm clouds, or however you want to put it, even though I always know full-well that both are ahead.

Basically, I see people who are douches about this subject (ie: people who call people who commit suicide and who want to commit suicide, weak), are extremely ignorant, and are closed minded.

Elite Ninja 12-20-2010 12:25 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Someone at our school has been on the verge of suicide for a while and what I have noticed is that he always looks at the bad side of things. He never thinks positive about anything and always focuses on the negative.

welsh_girl 12-20-2010 03:19 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Didn't read most posts, by my opinion on the subject.

Suicide is not selfish. When people say the person who commited suicide only cared about what they were going through and how miserable their life is, are far from the truth.

You might think its easy for the person who does it.. but suicide is the last resort, after every other avenue for them has been taken. Some people have such trajedy in their lives that the only way they can deal with it is by ending their lives.

Most are depressed and depression is a horrible illness, people become convinced no one would care about them if they die. What a horrible thought to have.

Without A Contraceptive 12-21-2010 12:42 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
aaaaaaaaaand its obvious you have never known anyone who attempted or has commmitted suicide.

chin's post needs a little more attention.

sorry my friend but the majority of people who attempt or commit suicide are weak. maybe if youre as crazy as you describe i could come closer to understanding your choice but even if that's the case, i will still consider you selfish and weak.

All_That_Chaz 12-21-2010 12:51 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive (Post 3375941)
sorry my friend but the majority of people who attempt or commit suicide are weak.

Define "weak."

Without A Contraceptive 12-21-2010 01:00 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
in the context i used it, "weak" means many things. unable to cope with Life, unable to recognize that there are people who you will leave distressed if you kill yourself, unable to see that youre taking the "easy way out".

All_That_Chaz 12-21-2010 01:04 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Do you think there's some wiggle room when it comes to just how bad someone has it? Do you consider someone who kills themself because they lost their cellphone to be weaker than someone with a terminal illness and is in constant real physical pain? Or are they both equally weak?

If there's any gray area, then you can't make generalizations about everyone who commits suicide.

customstuff 12-21-2010 01:09 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
In my opinion, those people could actually be stronger than most others. Maybe some people wish they could commit suicide, but too weak to do so. I believe that if someone had comitted suicide then they most likely thought about the consequences and eventually thought it would be worth it.

You shouldn't judge someone for being weak when you haven't lived their life. Everyone has their little troubles in life, but people who commit suicide most likely have a lot more to deal with than most people. Sure, everyone thinks differently about things, but at the beginning everyone was basically the same. All of our opinions on things were based off of what we have learnt over the years and the experiences we've had. It's very disrespectful to say someone was weak for committing suicide, especially since you can't live their life.

@Chaz. If a person killed themselves over losing their cellphone, then there's most likely one of two things:

1. That person has been dealing with an extreme amount of stress and that one little thing finally pushed them over the edge.

2. That person has had absolutely no stress for their entire life (i.e. being rich and living a care-free life) and didn't know how to deal with it when they first experienced stress like that.

Reincarnate 12-21-2010 01:25 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I don't know if Without A Contraceptive is trolling or if he's serious, but I'll take him at face value here because most people on this site are pretty thick, mentally speaking. You're completely wrong to say that all people who commit suicide are "weak" -- this is an absolutely retarded generalization and you're clearly falling victim to selection bias.

Most people who turn to suicide do so because they've run out of options. It's not as simple as pointing a finger and saying someone is weak for not coping/getting over their issues. Sometimes those issues are so inescapable to the point where all options have been exhausted. You may think someone is weak because from YOUR perspective/current state of life, their issues *should* be easy to cope with. You have to take all variables into account here. Their life != your life. It's almost never the same dynamic. Furthermore, people don't always know what they can do to fix their situations to begin with -- either that or they're simply too scared/unstable to try (usually there's a massive utility risk in doing so).

It's the same sort of disgusting logic where people say "Homeless people are just lazy and need to get jobs" without understanding why so many people are homeless to begin with.

krunkykai22 12-21-2010 01:39 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Wow, there is just so much debate going on in here. Well, as someone said earlier about lethal drugs; Cocaine, Heroine, Weed, X, PCP, LSD, Crack, Perx, Oxy, etc. Around the age of 18-21 I did this things religiously without thinking. I should be dead by definition of "overdose," but I'm not. I can't say that that is a technical "suicide" attempt. It's just misuse.

Suicide is the KNOWLEDGE that you ARE TRYING to die, and you're doing it from your own two hands. Taking drugs that you didn't know could kill you isn't suicide. Just had to put that out there.


Quote:

Originally Posted by LoneW0lf (Post 3371411)
Unless it's all of those above in one situation then it's pretty selfish. It's pretty odd when younger kids do it. I can understand if you are overwhelmed with debt and have no one who is your friend/spouse/any real family. But, if you have any of those relationships, suicide is pretty selfish. At least IMO.

I understand that someone can be going through deep pain and may have a very hard time with life, but when a young kid does it because, my parents hate me, they took away me computer for 2 weeks ////wrists, or, my girlfriend of 2 years broke up with me, I better kill myself.

That is what doesn't make sense to me. Any amount of depression can be overcome as long as you have support from friends/spouse/family. If you are going through a very difficult time in yer and you think about suicide, think about the other options that are available. Any type of therapy can be a very big help, wither it's from a professional or just from a friend. Even just looking at some of the positives you have in yer life should be a big help.

Anyway, I believe suicide is selfish and pretty pointless unless the situation you are in is overwhelming bleak. I only think it should be attempted if you are literally being physically/mentally tortured somewhere where escape is impossible.

That's just my opinion, I look forward to reading everyone's opinion.

Agreed with entirely...

Quote:

Originally Posted by kommisar (Post 3371415)
for people who were too coward to live life

I know Kommi can be a troll, but not for this thread man come on.


Quote:

Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp (Post 3371419)
This Is Critical Thinking.



So lets say 80% of sucides are affected by mental disorders. My brother has a mental disorder and I do not consider his actions to be selfish, he does not intend to be the way he is as such but has a chemical in balance in his brain.

So I would say most suicides are not intentionally selfish due to mental illness.


Most? So most suicides are from people who are mentally challenged? Maybe like 30% of people are mentally challenged. But, even then, a slight percentage to those that have depression compared to those that want a scooby doo lunch box.

Quote:

Originally Posted by windsurfer-sp (Post 3371429)
Is this suppose to be a chit-chat thread about peoples feelings on suicide and how they think it might happen to people or is it suppose to be somewhat of a factual discussion?

Factual things:
Relating personal experience with suicide (attempts etc...)
Having people close to you attempt/commit suicide.
People who study/work with suicidal people.
Research on suicide etc...

Sorry, I guess people spouting bull**** that they think of off the top of there heads and calling it intelligent discussion isn't my cup of tea.

Oh, hush. Just because people have their OWN opinion about things doesn't mean it's wrong. You want facts? Here:


1.)Industrialized countries tend to have a higher suicide rate than poor, developing countries
2.)The U.S. has a moderate suicide rate compared to other industrialized countries.
3.)U.S. Suicide rates are highest in the western and rocky mountain states. They are are lowest in the Northeastern states.
4.)Canadian suicide rates are similar: highest in British Columbia, on the west coast, and lowest in Newfoundland, on the east coast.

And one more:
There were 31,204 deaths by suicide recorded in 1995; 30,535 in 1997; 33,000 in 2006 (the latest data available at 2009-SEP-10). 5 The actual number is probably significantly higher, because many suicides are recorded as accidents.

There's facts. Now, you can continue to talk about this if you'd like :)

But, this thread was not made to be just factual let's look at the OP

Quote:

Originally Posted by All_That_Chaz (Post 3371388)
Why do people commit suicide? Is it a "selfish" act? How do you define "selfish?"

Discuss your thoughts concerning this difficult subject here.


I think that shows it all. THOUGHTS :)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3371437)
where it gets complicated is where the observations are legitimate. Consider someone who has a family that legitimately DOESN'T care about their wellbeing and WOULDN'T give their own lives to keep that person alive. Consider someone who may have few to no close friends/family or may be experiencing severe medical or financial troubles. Perhaps they screwed up horribly in school or can't find work etc. Perhaps these problems keep cropping up even with a healthy dose of help.

When is suicide "acceptable"? Where do we draw the line?


Personally, I don't think suicide is ever "acceptable" because no where in any law book or religious book will you find suicide to be acceptable. By moral standard or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kesshutsu (Post 3371443)
The only way I could see suicide as personally valid is if you somehow live through it. What meaning does suicide have then? As a meaningless act, there's no reason to do or not do it, or anything else.

Suicide valid??? what the ...... no DEATH should be valid unless they die of natural causes... Agree with AJ on this one, its technically not suicide.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yieldsign (Post 3371507)
and here's my stance:

regardless of whether or not suicide is selfish, it is always acceptable/permissible, and our legislation should reflect that. in the end, there is only one person who has control over his own life, and that is himself. EDIT BY KRUNKY = himself/HERSELF (gotta include everyone :D)

i think the implications of prohibiting suicide are frightening. you're essentially legislating "psychological harm" which is, at least for NOW, far too dubious and arbitrary to incorporate into law in such a manner.


Ummmm, again, law/suicide/legislation.... why is Suicide being related to legislation? Are the people who killed themself going to jail? Are they going to have to go to court to defend their actions? No. People committed suicide they are dead and passed on, leave it to the family and friends to mourn.


Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy (Post 3371674)
Your life is your own. Being able to choose for yourself what you want to do with your life should be your own freedom.


Wow izzy ..... Nice 2 liner here but very true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3371819)
A question for you guys: What's so bad about being alone? I personally like quiet time by myself. In fact, living a life of solitude with internet is all I need - "going outside" with friends (read: acquaintances) for me is just a waste of time since it's not really fun and sometimes they just like to drink and smoke.

Do you guys like quiet time by yourselves? Why would being alone make you depressed? Technically I'm alone practically all the time except when I'm in school or there's something my parents want me to do or some other event like a vacation - I'm in my room reading, resting, doing bicep exercises, on the laptop, homework, whatever else. I don't have any true friends in real life to talk to but I am not depressed/lonely. If anything, online is where all my REAL friends are at, and even then that's only a few.

Everyone loves their own quiet time. It's their time to space themselves from in person reality. It gives a person time to just deal with whatever it is they are doing, or to just relax and chill. I love my quiet time. I do what I want and it lets me get back to normal, if I can say that.



All in all, suicide is a selfish act because selfish means to do for yourself without concern of others. You want something you take it regardless of the poor homeless boy in the corner, you want that 10,000 dollar prize. You forget about just how easy it is to just go for what you want. Very rarely with suicide will you see someone THINK about anyone else but their own problems...... I had a near suicide attempt to prove that .....

Cavernio 12-21-2010 02:00 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by krunkykai22 (Post 3375984)
Suicide is the KNOWLEDGE that you ARE TRYING to die, and you're doing it from your own two hands. Taking drugs that you didn't know could kill you isn't suicide. Just had to put that out there.

I know you talked about yourself, but I just want to clarify what I said earlier, in that if I had known how ineffectual ibuprofen, aspirin and wellbutrin are at killing someone, I would have taken something a little more lethal.



Quote:

Originally Posted by krunkykai22 (Post 3375984)
Most? So most suicides are from people who are mentally challenged? Maybe like 30% of people are mentally challenged. But, even then, a slight percentage to those that have depression compared to those that want a scooby doo lunch box.

To anyone who cares, the term 'mentally challenged' was a replacement for the word 'retarded', and the term that we should be using here is 'mentally ill'. But I would like to know where you get the idea that most people who commit suicide do so because they can't get an item out of life that they really want. You said yourself that you've thought about suicide, and I also suspect the vast majority of people at some point have also considered suicide. There's a big difference between thinking about something, to actually doing something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by krunkykai22 (Post 3375984)
All in all, suicide is a selfish act because selfish means to do for yourself without concern of others. You want something you take it regardless of the poor homeless boy in the corner, you want that 10,000 dollar prize. You forget about just how easy it is to just go for what you want. Very rarely with suicide will you see someone THINK about anyone else but their own problems...... I had a near suicide attempt to prove that .....

The fact that you almost tried to commit suicide over something you think of now as shallow is by no means proof that most suicides are also over equally shallow things.

Oni-Paranoia 12-21-2010 02:14 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reincarnate (Post 3375971)
Most people who turn to suicide do so because they've run out of options. It's not as simple as pointing a finger and saying someone is weak for not coping/getting over their issues

"...run out of options." is wrong to assume. Most of the times their is many options that we don't try or see because we are usually to hurt, depressed etc... to think about it.

Theirs a phrase police use to describe someone who leaves behind clues in a murder scene; the murderer senses that they did something wrong and a certain feeling overcame obviousness pretty much. I assume that phrase would fit here.

"It's not as simple as pointing a finger and saying someone is weak for not coping/getting over their issues"

Agreed. Everyone experiences something different, but because we're human and have this mentality of normal/average and we're just a pawn in the game of life, if someone loses their wife most of us can probably can assume (stupidly yet easily) he's a pathetic jerk for crying about it and taking his life for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cavernio (Post 3375990)
I assume you're referring to what I said. I took drugs I hoped would kill me, and they didn't. Had I known how ineffective ODing on wellbutrin, aspirin, and ibuprofen is, I would have searched for something a little more lethal.

I can relate to this 100% (Just had more of a variety within my story).

Reincarnate 12-21-2010 02:48 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
Oni, I don't mean "run out of options" as some sort of universal truth. In most cases there ARE other options. But what's important to note is that relative to the person experiencing the lack of will to live, those other options are either unknown or not worth pursuing.

DossarLX ODI 12-21-2010 02:55 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I read something online that made a good point about suicide.

Quote:

You are not a bad person, or crazy, or weak, or flawed, because you feel suicidal. It doesn't even mean that you really want to die - it only means that you have more pain than you can cope with right now. If I start piling weights on your shoulders, you will eventually collapse if I add enough weights... no matter how much you want to remain standing.

People often turn to suicide because they are seeking relief from pain. Remember that relief is a feeling. And you have to be alive to feel it. You will not feel the relief you so desperately seek, if you are dead.
Source: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/

If suicide is something a person is considering because of pain or stress, he/she needs to know that relief is a feeling and you need to be alive to experience it. So unless he/she WANTS to lose all these feelings/senses, suicidal thoughts are just interfering with logic.

Reincarnate 12-21-2010 03:06 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
I don't think it's so much a desire for an active feeling of relief as it is an absence of pain. An absence of any feeling at all accomplishes this just as well.

tyler2zelda 12-21-2010 05:10 PM

Re: Suicide.
 
This is coming from someone who, sadly, has attempted suicide multiple times, and been in a psych ward.

To me, it's like people said: an escape. I've become tired of living my life on many, many occasions (such as, funnily enough, right now) because of the person I am, who I've become, and how I've been treated because of it. I've tried changing into something I wanted to be, but... a lot of people don't agree with it.

I've tried all the anti-depressants, and all those dumb therapists, and all the other medications under the sun. Nothing works.

It's not always OUR fault, in fact, it rarely is, that we end up making that decision to cut our lives short. We just... can't take it anymore. The pain needs somewhere to go, but there's nowhere for it to go. It's like why some people (again, such as me) cut themselves; as a way to put the pain they constantly suffer from somewhere else, something physical. So it can be treated in some form.

Cavernio 12-23-2010 09:38 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
"I don't think it's so much a desire for an active feeling of relief as it is an absence of pain. An absence of any feeling at all accomplishes this just as well."

I know this is not going to be entirely true, because I think most suicidal people feel something at the times when they ARE suicidal, but when you're suicidal because you feel there's no point because you usually feel emotionless, this doesn't help at all. Feeling anything besides despair is a blessing. Besides which, not feeling much of anything makes hurting yourself quite a bit easier.

masterhickle 12-23-2010 11:03 AM

Re: Suicide.
 
I've witnessed my share of deaths - I have a fairly large family. Since the time I was about 14 or 15, there's been at least 12 deaths in my family (aunts, uncles, grandparents, cousins). Don't even try to tell me that that hasn't taken some kind of toll on me. Each death makes me realize more and more how vulnerable I really am, how easily it could happen to me.

I've been through my share of states of depression. I have an 18 month old daughter and a wonderful fiancee, but I consider myself lucky if I get to see my fiancee once a week and (since she's usually asleep when I get to see my fiancee) my daughter MAYBE every other week (I think I've seen her twice this month). I hardly get to see my family, even less my friends. My dad lost his job and was out of work for three months, and, being in a family with 4 kids, we've been going through hell to just stabilize ourselves. My mom works full-time night shifts at a hospital, so she sleeps through the day. My dad is on the road for up to (and sometimes more than) two weeks at a time. Whenever either of them happen to be off of work on the same night, I have to work, so I don't get to spend time with them.

Edit: I have friends that have been kicked out of their houses even before the age of 16 and have had to live on the street for a time, working two or three jobs to try and get by. My cousin got kicked out of his house on his 18th birthday and his parents left him with nowhere to go. They're both still alive and going, even though their families didn't care about them.

I'm now working 40 hours a week at one job and starting to work a second job. I plan to be working at least 70 hours a week - I'm only 21. I'm barely getting myself by from paycheck to paycheck, let alone be able to do for my daughter what I want to do for her.

My life is miserable. I just break down and cry because I don't have the luxury of being able to spend time with my family, my fiancee, or my daughter. I still get to talk to my friends late at night when I have the time, and that's enough for them and me.



Q:What's the point to this post?
A: There's always a reason to live, no matter what a person may think. Have I sunk into depression? Yes. I've drank to the point of delirium to get myself away from reality, but I don't rely on it. Do I want out of this? You'd be crazy to think I don't want out of it, but I've never even considered taking myself out of this world. I've accepted that my life is miserable now, but I tell myself that things will get better with time.

What's my reason to live? I have people that need me. My parents need me to watch and take care of my 12 and 7 year old sister and brother when they aren't around. My fiancee needs me to provide money for us, even if she knows it means that I'll hardly get to see much of her or our daughter for a few months.


I don't care who hates me for this (I know someone will). Mental illnesses aside, Suicide is selfish. There's always a reason to continue living. If you can't find that reason, you just don't care enough about the people around you, whether or not you think they care.


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