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-   -   Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful. (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=114775)

Vendetta21 10-22-2010 06:46 PM

Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010...military-leaks

Quote:

The new logs detail how:

• US authorities failed to investigate hundreds of reports of abuse, torture, rape and even murder by Iraqi police and soldiers whose conduct appears to be systematic and normally unpunished.

• A US helicopter gunship involved in a notorious Baghdad incident had previously killed Iraqi insurgents after they tried to surrender.

• More than 15,000 civilians died in previously unknown incidents. US and UK officials have insisted that no official record of civilian casualties exists but the logs record 66,081 non-combatant deaths out of a total of 109,000 fatalities.

ledwix 10-22-2010 08:40 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Every war is ****ing awful. It needs to be stopped altogether, not just US conflicts. It's not like some wars are nice and civil while others are brutal. They all have to do with killing our fellow beings because some leader on the other side of the world doesn't like what some other leader said about something.

ananana 10-23-2010 04:43 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Yes, the US is ****ing awful. The US has been responsible for the most awful things that have happened over there. The US military are the only ones doing anything awful over there. The US has done nothing useful there.

You have no ****ing clue.

krunkykai22 10-23-2010 06:53 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
First off, I will say that Bush did the right thing in retaliating against Al Quaeda. I don't believe that the war had to push so much on Saddam Hussein instead of Osama Bin Laden though. This war was a ****ing mess. We could have captured Laden long before Saddam if we had only thought correctly. Instead, yes we hung a top named terrorist in his own country THAT WAS ****ING TELEVISED NON THE LESS. Complete and utter bull**** that we went after the 2nd most wanted. This terroism on the US started with Osama, why not get him first? Its not like we couldn't have gotten Hussein seeing as him and his sons were completely stupid :/

But to read about these reports, just reminds me of the World Wars. It's brutal, distasteful and just down right wrong. But, what can WE do about it? it's the military. >.>

fido123 10-23-2010 12:05 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ananana (Post 3320943)
Yes, the US is ****ing awful. The US has been responsible for the most awful things that have happened over there. The US military are the only ones doing anything awful over there. The US has done nothing useful there.

You have no ****ing clue.

And terrorists making IEDs killing people isn't awful? I think I can safely say, when there's conflict both sides tend to do awful things. It's what war is and what it's always been. What about the Iraqi government actually doing all the torturing? Yeah the US was pulling a dick move by not stopping them but the Iraqi government is actually doing it.


Quote:

Originally Posted by krunkykai22 (Post 3320960)
First off, I will say that Bush did the right thing in retaliating against Al Quaeda. I don't believe that the war had to push so much on Saddam Hussein instead of Osama Bin Laden though. This war was a ****ing mess. We could have captured Laden long before Saddam if we had only thought correctly. Instead, yes we hung a top named terrorist in his own country THAT WAS ****ING TELEVISED NON THE LESS. Complete and utter bull**** that we went after the 2nd most wanted. This terroism on the US started with Osama, why not get him first? Its not like we couldn't have gotten Hussein seeing as him and his sons were completely stupid :/

But to read about these reports, just reminds me of the World Wars. It's brutal, distasteful and just down right wrong. But, what can WE do about it? it's the military. >.>

The war in Iraq has nothing to do with 9/11, and believe me Saddam really wasn't an American enemy. IMO it's just Bush trying to finish what his dad started for also Cheney's PERSONAL gain (his construction companies are rebuilding Iraq), and I think somehow it's suppose to help out with oil somehow but I don't really get how the hell ****ing up Iraq helped. You can't really "beat" Al'Quaida because it's not really a group organized in a way where you're fighting some kind of army. It's just a bunch of individuals who feel the same way about certain things and react by trying to preform acts of terror and resisting against the American military, mostly as individuals.

IMO the American government should have stayed out of all this **** completely.

Vendetta21 10-23-2010 12:53 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ananana (Post 3320943)
Yes, the US is ****ing awful. The US has been responsible for the most awful things that have happened over there. The US military are the only ones doing anything awful over there. The US has done nothing useful there.

You have no ****ing clue.

I get that you're being sarcastic, even if Fido doesn't.

Stop for a second and turn on your empathy switch before you blindly defend your country. Note that 66,000 non-combatants died at the hands of the US in a unilateral war that is not internationally supported where the only lasting change and objective we fulfilled was building bases near their oil drilling sites.

Put yourself in the shoes of an Iraqi for a second: the White Man has come to your land and has killed more innocent people than not in a war that you don't understand and has only caused problems and in general made your life worse.

Now while you're sitting in the position of empathy and pondering this war from the inside the question you really have to ask is:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=603EdqmOYzw

rushyrulz 10-23-2010 01:07 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Reason 1 why I don't believe in God: religion = war ; war = death ; death = bad, therefore religion = bad. (amongst other reasons, but I realize this is a topic to be discussed at a later time.) 2 cents.

Vendetta21 10-23-2010 01:16 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by rushyrulz (Post 3321145)
Reason 1 why I don't believe in God: religion = war ; war = death ; death = bad, therefore religion = bad. (amongst other reasons, but I realize this is a topic to be discussed at a later time.) 2 cents.

You're aiming really well but the problem is you're not even aiming at the target. Religion is usually war-neutral. If you take away religion wars will still exist because there's a human drive to aggregate power and have more stuff. Religion is just one of a hundred ways to get people worked up enough to feel like going to war.

But don't confuse the parlor tricks for creating morale with the fascist dominoes that actually tip us into wars.

Anyways being a Dawkins athiest is trite and boring and a waste of your time and thoughts.

AsphyxZero 10-23-2010 01:18 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
If it makes you feel better, I joined the military to go to college.

On topic: Geneva Conventions. I've heard from numerous peers of mine that, when downrange, there are quite a few soldiers that don't follow Geneva Conventions. Which is sad. But I don't think people should blame the entire military on breaches of the Conventions. I was at MEPS (the processing station for the military), and I was sitting with a bunch of kids out of high school. I was talking to them, and the majority of them had the 11B MOS, which in laymen's terms, is an infantryman. Now, I would never take that as my job because I scored too high on ASVAB. But when I asked them why they took infantry as their job, about 95% said that they wanted to either "blow **** up" or "kill terrorists."
And that's exactly what they (think they) are doing.

FPRain 10-23-2010 01:19 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
I'm not an American and I admit I don't follow up on much of what's going on in that country. Call me ignorant but I'm just wondering, why is the war still going on?
Common sense has to agree with Fido here. Its obvious 9 years later that this isn't about 911, it isn't about nuclear weapons, or about oil, so why has the Obama administration fail to end this like he said he would?
The only thing that this war has done for america is spend billions of tax dollars on a cause that's unclear.
It's completely distasteful to read an article like this and know that the people who should be presecuted won't be held accountable.

Vendetta21 10-23-2010 01:20 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
In your experience would you say that Generation Kill miniseries pretty accurately creates the image of the modern day solider?

Vendetta21 10-23-2010 01:25 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FPRain (Post 3321161)
I'm not an American and I admit I don't follow up on much of what's going on in that country. Call me ignorant but I'm just wondering, why is the war still going on?
Common sense has to agree with Fido here. Its obvious 9 years later that this isn't about 911, it isn't about nuclear weapons, or about oil, so why has the Obama administration fail to end this like he said he would?
The only thing that this war has done for america is spend billions of tax dollars on a cause that's unclear.
It's completely distasteful to read an article like this and know that the people who should be presecuted won't be held accountable.

There are Machiavellian reasons and there are on-paper reasons. The Machiavellian reason is oil. It's always oil. Oil is the unspoken dark heart of ideological conflict in this world. But that's not what the talking heads in the white buildings say the war is about.

The war was about "spreading democracy" in the Middle East. Except what we we're trying to do was we we're trying to create a pro-Western government in Iraq that had some sort of weak coalition government because we feared that a majority Shia controlled parliament would end up creating a like-minded political bloc with Iran (hint: this is what happened in the end.) So we're pulling out because we really can't do ****, and they essentially have a "democracy" it's just not the one we preferred for our interests and also not one that will stay a true "democracy" for too long.

But we still have people occupying the bases that are strategically located near oil fields. We are still busting up Oil Workers unions, and we are still flooding corporate investment in that seems to be poised to take advantage of the resources and the workers.

The more you read about the Middle East the more you see how oil seeps from the pores of conflict.

Coolgamer 10-27-2010 12:22 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Oh hey. I'm just gonna leave this here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KXUssG6_Ecc

Watch it and perhaps you will learn a few things about the military.

Oh, and if you have time, view this as well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rXPrfnU3G0

Emo_Saur_ 10-27-2010 12:29 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Does it matter? Complaining about our screw-ups overseas will not get us anywhere. They're the government, they have power that you can not believe. No civilian will stop any of this from happening.

Coolgamer 10-27-2010 12:53 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 3325872)
Does it matter? Complaining about our screw-ups overseas will not get us anywhere. They're the government, they have power that you can not believe. No civilian will stop any of this from happening.

Unless we all actually teamed together, but pfft.

NFD 10-27-2010 01:02 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tt0xxAMTp8M

xealix 10-27-2010 01:06 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 3325872)
Does it matter? Complaining about our screw-ups overseas will not get us anywhere. They're the government, they have power that you can not believe. No civilian will stop any of this from happening.


I absolutely agree with this. No one here is saying that war is not a bad thing, but the chances of billions of people actually banning together to stop this thing is absolutely impossible. The truth is this was started years ago, and now there is no turning back. We will have to continue this war and use our military forces even if this mean there will be more horrible things happening. War cannot be stopped and will always be around. Religion does not = bad. People = bad.

Edit: and again this -V

Emo_Saur_ 10-27-2010 01:19 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Stopping war is impossible, you can't create a utopia. If we tried to create one massive world utopia, we'd have to go back to the beginning on mankind which is not humanly possible. Opinion is what keeps this world spinning, if we didn't have people disagreeing then what would there be to do? Sit there, do nothing for hours on end..

Vendetta21 10-27-2010 02:01 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 3325872)
Does it matter? Complaining about our screw-ups overseas will not get us anywhere. They're the government, they have power that you can not believe. No civilian will stop any of this from happening.

I can't really pose a counter-argument to isolating yourself from reality because you can't create a great deal of impact. The point really is just trying to increase awareness of your place in existence for it's own sake so you aren't pretending that you're living in a world you are not. All intellectual endeavors are mostly hubris by themselves.

Emo_Saur_ 10-27-2010 02:06 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
I live in a world of war, I do realize this. I also live in a world of love, peace, unity, racism. It's not a matter of I am pretending to live in a world I don't it's that I don't really care because I know one person isn't able to change the world completely.

xealix 10-27-2010 02:06 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3326020)
I can't really pose a counter-argument to isolating yourself from reality because you can't create a great deal of impact. The point really is just trying to increase awareness of your place in existence for it's own sake so you aren't pretending that you're living in a world you are not. All intellectual endeavors are mostly hubris by themselves.

It takes awareness even to believe you can't make a difference. I don't think he believes that it is impossible to make a difference in all things, because that would just be a foolish thing to say, but abolishing something that has been around since the start of man is a dream that seems damn near impossible to me. Maybe we can get close, and who knows what will happen. I just cannot see a future where war does not exist. This is all a personal opinion of course.

stargroup100 10-27-2010 03:16 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 3325872)
Does it matter? Complaining about our screw-ups overseas will not get us anywhere. They're the government, they have power that you can not believe. No civilian will stop any of this from happening.

This is true, but that doesn't mean this discussion doesn't matter. What happens in the war and what information is sent to us as citizens affect our interpretation of our country, our military, and other countries. While what we discuss and do probably don't matter in the long run, it is necessarily to have an understanding of what is going on around us so that we have the right idea about what is going on around the world.

The problem with this is that most people are very deluded about these topics, with very little possibility of encountering a reliable source of information they trust.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 3325967)
Stopping war is impossible, you can't create a utopia. If we tried to create one massive world utopia, we'd have to go back to the beginning on mankind which is not humanly possible. Opinion is what keeps this world spinning, if we didn't have people disagreeing then what would there be to do? Sit there, do nothing for hours on end..

Stopping war is not impossible. Creating a utopia is impossible by definition.

Opinions are what bring out the diversity in people, but that doesn't necessarily lead to aggressive fights. There are plenty of ways of taking advantage of disagreements in positive manners.

Quote:

Originally Posted by rushyrulz (Post 3321145)
Reason 1 why I don't believe in God: religion = war ; war = death ; death = bad, therefore religion = bad. (amongst other reasons, but I realize this is a topic to be discussed at a later time.) 2 cents.

This post is such a joke that I shouldn't even be replying to this.

"religion = war"
Fallacious. Religion is a set of principles and beliefs. War is simply a means of aggressive disagreement between extremists of each side. These extremists are not usually not accurate representations of the religion itself. 82% of Americans are Christian. Does this imply that these 82% of people are always at war?

"war = death"
War may cause death, but that doesn't mean they are equivalent.

"death = bad"
While death is generally considered to be a negative impact on humanity, it is part of the life cycle. Death cannot be so black and white to be immediately classified as "bad," as all things in the universe are to some degree beneficial and detrimental. You merely assume that in the specific case that war is usually bad and causes pointless destruction, that you separate the two cases and then combine them by transitive property, which is fallacious.

"religion = bad"
So you basically just combined relative concepts that weren't even necessarily true with equal signs, and then mathematically declared them to be the exact same thing, and hence assuming that the transitive property was a legal application here.

Despite common sense knowledge about the benefits of religion, moderation in every day life, balance and clear separation between principles of faith and reason, and the eccentricity of special extreme cases, you decide to connect nonsensical arguments and ideas in order to arrive at the final conclusion that you are against religions. Next time, you should look at things from as many perspectives as possible before you judge, and actually apply arguments that make sense. As a person that is against religion, isn't it ironic that you don't actually apply any logic or reasoning to back up your faith-based environmentally-impacted observed opinions?

RobertsonaIsBack 10-27-2010 04:57 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
stargroup got trolled

Ichiro_Suzuki_desu 10-27-2010 06:14 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Free will lead to war. War very costly, lead to death. Death very bad. Therefore free will very very bad.

Cavernio 10-28-2010 09:12 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
"Does it matter? Complaining about our screw-ups overseas will not get us anywhere. They're the government, they have power that you can not believe. No civilian will stop any of this from happening."

So wrong, unless your definition of a civilian by necessity makes someone a non-civilian if they take up arms or the fact that they become active and a leader of people makes them not a civilian.
Individuals found companies, found religions, take down governments...change happens from individuals! Its all about how driven you are, how resourceful you are, and how intelligent you are. Most people who share you view of the world are not driven enough to make a difference, IMO, and are cowed by the very thought of the enormity of the effort and planning involved it takes to make a big difference. Or rather, they won't even get into the planning stages of what might be involved, because its just so damned huge of an effort to put out. Which almost equates to what you said, but is in fact quite different, because by saying that you have no power, you will also never try, and therefore never succeed, regardless of how easy or hard it would be do. You're also passing on the message to others that it is impossible, and if they believe you, they too will do nothing.

"Free will lead to war. War very costly, lead to death. Death very bad. Therefore free will very very bad."

Freedom doesn't lead to war. Also, no country is ever really free by fact of being a country in the first place. I would say freedom specifically makes 'war' much less of a likelihood, because war implies something largescale and organized. In an anarchy, you might have more fighting, but to get something organized enough for a war while still remaining free seems unlikely.
Regardless though, my free country doesn't force me to join the military, and allows me to vote.

MrRubix 10-28-2010 09:24 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
stargroup your reasoning is terrible

Zageron 10-28-2010 10:42 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Stargroup.

Take logic and reasoning. You'll find that 100% of mathematicians agree with rushy.

Emo_Saur_ 10-28-2010 11:33 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Organized religion is a scheme all in itself. Also, Rushy religion is usually not the basis of war. So, you can't use that so broadly as a analogy to describe war as a whole.

MrRubix 10-28-2010 12:14 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
War a grander form of "We can't come to any other mutual agreement but we both can't allow this situation to go on any further, so we're going to start causing you harm if you don't comply."

Religion can indeed fuel many wars because in most cases it's an ego displacement. "I ignorantly hate race X" gets displaced to "God hates race X and I must follow God's word." Religion can be a pretty dangerous tool because of, largely, these two things:

1. We can justify anything by saying it's God's word, because we can't disprove such a thing.
2. It's considered disrespectful to step on the toes of the religious -- religion almost demands a sort of unwarranted respect.

It's certainly more complicated than this but this is the stroke of it.

Emo_Saur_ 10-28-2010 12:19 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3327572)
religion almost demands a sort of unwarranted respect.

If they didn't have disrespect, the bible pushers would have no one to shove the bible down people's throats. I have no problem against religion what so ever. I do not think it plays a major part in OUR war. That's not what we're fighting for.

MrRubix 10-28-2010 12:40 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
It demands unwarranted respect because you can basically argue any ideology you want, no matter how self-serving or socially-grating it may be, and basically tell people "Oh no, you can't question my beliefs -- they're holy. Don't disrespect my religion."

We're seemingly free to criticize politicians and economists but it's considered poor form to tell someone that their religion is batshit.

Emo_Saur_ 10-28-2010 12:44 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Well, even blabbering about a political stuff can get you into a load of arguing.

MrRubix 10-28-2010 12:47 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Right but at least we can debate politics with evidence and proof. I might argue one side of an issue, cite statistics, mention alternative plans that might maximize utility, etc, and you might take another side because you interpret things differently (hopefully also with proof).

Religion doesn't fall into that category. There's no way to disprove or prove anything anyone says, and so it comes down to "Well I will cause harm because I said so," in its most basic form, where war/oppression is concerned. Having no justification is pretty dangerous.

Emo_Saur_ 10-28-2010 12:49 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Rubix, are you agnostic by any chance?

MrRubix 10-28-2010 12:52 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
I am an agnostic atheist.

Specifically defined: I do not believe in anything theistic, but I also think that I have to be fair, as a scientist, to say that the concept of God is by definition an unknowable construct (we can't ever disprove God) -- I do not believe the probability split between God possibly existing and not existing is 50%/50%.

ledwix 10-28-2010 04:06 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zageron (Post 3327499)
Stargroup.

Take logic and reasoning. You'll find that 100% of mathematicians agree with rushy.

I find that dubious. Rushy did not even make an argument, or if he did, it was non-sequitir. God's existence has no dependence on the corruptness of established earthly religions.

Religion is not bad in general, though anytime one preaches something other than love and understanding, it is. In a way, we are all religious, and we are all philosophers, although the former has a negative connotation among most intellectuals, and so they might take offense to that label.

MrRubix 10-28-2010 04:08 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ledwix (Post 3327764)
I find that dubious. Rushy did not even make an argument, or if he did, it was non-sequitir. God's existence has no dependence on the corruptness of established earthly religions.

Religion is not bad in general, though anytime one preaches something other than love and understanding, it is. In a way, we are all religious, and we are all philosophers, although the former has a negative connotation among most intellectuals, and so they might take offense to that label.

Considering that religious refers to a state of religion, which refers to God/Gods and arbitrary beliefs, I'd say it's not only offensive, but flat-out incorrect.

ledwix 10-28-2010 04:24 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3327767)
Considering that religious refers to a state of religion, which refers to God/Gods and arbitrary beliefs, I'd say it's not only offensive, but flat-out incorrect.

Religion also includes "a set of beliefs concerning the origin and purpose of the universe," although you seem to have either bunched this into the set "arbitrary beliefs" or overlooked it. Do you therefore not hold any beliefs about the purpose of the universe, since all those beliefs would be arbitrary? If you do not hold any belief about it, then your actions are arbitrary. If you do hold a belief, your beliefs are arbitrary. Which is the case?

MrRubix 10-28-2010 04:30 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ledwix (Post 3327798)
Religion also includes "a set of beliefs concerning the origin and purpose of the universe," although you seem to have either bunched this into the set "arbitrary beliefs" or overlooked it. Do you therefore not hold any beliefs about the purpose of the universe, since all those beliefs would be arbitrary? If you do not hold any belief about it, then your actions are arbitrary. If you do hold a belief, your beliefs are arbitrary. Which is the case?

Yeah except I have no arbitrary beliefs about the origin of the universe.

Get your terminology right and try again next time.

ledwix 10-28-2010 04:33 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3327808)
Yeah except I have no arbitrary beliefs about the origin of the universe.

Get your terminology right and try again next time.

OR the purpose of the universe? If you do not have arbitrary beliefs about the purpose of the universe, you either have objective beliefs or none at all. Again, which is the case?

MrRubix 10-28-2010 04:42 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ledwix (Post 3327817)
OR the purpose of the universe? If you do not have arbitrary beliefs about the purpose of the universe, you either have objective beliefs or none at all. Again, which is the case?

Loaded term, because evidence suggests that we live in a purposeless universe by default. Purpose is a humanized concept that we can explain with things like evolution.

That brings us to origin. For one, it again assumes an origin to begin with -- which we don't have *direct* evidence for since we don't yet understand fully the point in time in which Einstein's equations break down, yet we have evidence in terms of quantum cosmology that suggests possible explanations for the universe's "progression" (the simultaneity of events regarding the singularity), but again, none of it is fact yet such that it explains "what the hell really happened." It doesn't mean we have to "believe" in anything until the evidence is more conclusive regarding the question we're addressing directly. Believe it or not, it's okay to say "I don't know." Because nobody does, yet. It's okay to reserve judgment until all the facts are in.

Seriously, quit being a smartass when you have *no idea* what you're talking about. It isn't a "which is it" scenario -- you're loading the terms. "Objective beliefs" in itself is a completely laughable phrasing.

ledwix 10-28-2010 05:25 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Well, regardless of the purpose or lack thereof of the universe, evidence has absolutely nothing to do with it. It is impossible to scientifically affirm purpose or purposelessness. If you think that evidence collected from the physical world has the ability to tell us whether there is a purpose to the universe, then you are misinformed.

Anyway, that wasn't what I was trying to get at. You believe that the universe is purposeless. But you do things. Therefore your actions are arbitrary like those of religion, in that the preference of one action over another is much like the preference of a flavor of ice cream over another. So to pride yourself in not doing things in a completely arbitrary way like religion is hypocritical.

MrRubix 10-28-2010 06:06 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Again, you're an idiot.

Purpose is a human construct. If you want to invoke a "higher purpose," then you might look to religion or something similar because it's assuming something arbitrary and without evidence. We have evidence for purpose where human constructs are concerned.

Way to strawman and misinterpret my argument BTW. Do you even understand evolution? It's not like we can dig in a rock somewhere and "discover purpose." Purpose is an evolved construct just like any other function of the human mind. Why do you think we feel happiness/sadness/emotion/etc? Purpose is a side-effect resulting from our evolved nature to test the consistency of the world through pattern matching and logical inferences regarding causal links. Couple that with human utilitarian concepts and you have "purpose."

Sure, we "do things." But our actions aren't "arbitrary like religion." They're, at the core, utilitarian and causal. Why do you think we "like" one thing over another? You conflate the concept of purpose in a scientific sense with "purpose" as it's typically defined in most religions. We can lead "purposeful" lives where human utility is concerned, and this is well-evidenced in practically every nook and cranny you can think of. But "higher purpose" is an invoked piece of BS that has no basis in anything and is a displacement of the human ego and utility.

I seriously can't tell if you're trying to troll me or if you're genuinely this ignorant/thick. My money's on http://img697.imageshack.us/img697/174/trollface.png but who knows. They let just about any kind of trash into UCLA these days, especially those who need to ask about "retrospective decision making" in a blatant misunderstanding of probability.

What the hell do you even learn in school? Whatever it is, you need to get better at it, because you genuinely suck.

devonin 10-28-2010 07:09 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Regardless of why you think he's posting what and how he's posting, at least try to keep a civil tongue?

ledwix 10-28-2010 09:13 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3327942)
Purpose is a human construct. If you want to invoke a "higher purpose," then you might look to religion or something similar because it's assuming something arbitrary and without evidence. We have evidence for purpose where human constructs are concerned.
Way to strawman and misinterpret my argument BTW. Do you even understand evolution? It's not like we can dig in a rock somewhere and "discover purpose." Purpose is an evolved construct just like any other function of the human mind. Why do you think we feel happiness/sadness/emotion/etc? Purpose is a side-effect resulting from our evolved nature to test the consistency of the world through pattern matching and logical inferences regarding causal links. Couple that with human utilitarian concepts and you have "purpose."

I understand the difference between an observed purpose and an ultimate, higher purpose. I’m saying that the biological purpose that we observe in species and particularly in our species, like reproduction, promoting a higher standard of living, or increasing lifespans, isn’t a purpose in itself. It’s only a purpose relative to the fundamentally arbitrary evolutionary goal of survival. “Higher purpose,” something you seem to consider ridiculous and arbitrary, is equally as arbitrary as those purposes we observe in populations like ourselves.
Quote:

Sure, we "do things." But our actions aren't "arbitrary like religion." They're, at the core, utilitarian and causal. Why do you think we "like" one thing over another? You conflate the concept of purpose in a scientific sense with "purpose" as it's typically defined in most religions. We can lead "purposeful" lives where human utility is concerned, and this is well-evidenced in practically every nook and cranny you can think of. But "higher purpose" is an invoked piece of BS that has no basis in anything and is a displacement of the human ego and utility.
Uh huh, actions are causal and utilitarian. But the same is true for religion. People become religious sometimes when they are feeling sad and are confused about where their lives are going, perhaps. That’s a utilitarian decision directly caused by a lack of drive and fulfillment, since those arbitrary ceremonies they might involve themselves in succeed if they induce utility. The goal of utility is an arbitrary goal in both cases, not only if it’s guided by religion. The truth is that all people strive for something they are not sure even means anything (while trying to avoid the implications of those thoughts), and some strive for something that they know doesn’t mean anything.

The fact that you mention purposeful lives “where human utility is concerned” shows that you believe purpose does not objectively exist but instead exists relative to some cause, in the same way that velocity does not objectively exist except when measured relative to some defined stationary point. If you want a high-paying job, you “ought” to get well-educated. If you want to become a good fisher, you “ought” to have patience. But these are conditionals that assume the purpose of the thing that came before them. I believe you would agree with me if I said that these things had no objective purpose, but instead just did something that would potentially lead to more utility. Utility is an arbitrary purpose, though, and so the rest of activity is, as well. A decision is fundamentally backed by dogma regardless of the logical validity of the argument for that decision.

Iam90 10-29-2010 02:02 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Utility is an arbitrary purpose, though, and so the rest of activity is, as well. A decision is fundamentally backed by dogma regardless of the logical validity of the argument for that decision.
yes this is true in a way on a very fundamental level but it's pretty irrelevant. i think we're all assuming to be operating within a human paradigm; when you get so basic as to analyze the validity of things like survival, you're deconstructing everything to the point where all discussion concerning human activity is meaningless

Vendetta21 10-29-2010 02:49 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Zageron (Post 3327499)
Stargroup.

Take logic and reasoning. You'll find that 100% of mathematicians agree with rushy.



statistics can determine a lot of useless **** if you don't take the time to critically think about things from an inside view

i'm not saying it's possible to view as many things with an inside view than it is with a broad mathematical view but those statistics can be interpreted in a lot of useless ways

making religion the enemy is like making stupidity the enemy. it's detracting from where a real focus should be by focusing on meta-elements (and also issues that you aren't going to make a lot of progress with whatever specific problem domain they create by combating on this meta-level.) i haven't found a reason to try to deal with anything beyond a case-by-case basis. i have a feeling a smarty like rubix or iam90 could come up with something tho.

MrRubix 10-29-2010 09:58 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Devonin:

Alright.

Ledwix:

I'm in a mad rush this morning so I'll make this quick.

I think you're confusing what it means to believe in something, similar to the common misconceptions that atheists "believe" in something just as arbitrary as a theist "believes" in God. There's a difference between a belief and lack of belief.

Your initial point was that we are all religious because we either hold a belief about a God/Gods and/or hold some belief about the origin and/or purpose of the universe. A belief is another way of effectively saying "in my opinion" or "what we think" about some positive statement, and it may or may not be true. This is different from a factual statement where knowledge and facts are concerned, defined as "justified true beliefs" (what's true for me is true for you). A lack of belief simply means "I won't claim this to be true and I am reserving judgment until I have evidence" or simply "I don't care enough to form an opinion and therefore have no belief one way or another." Atheism, for instance, is a sort of non-theism. It simply means "lack of theistic beliefs," meaning you do not subscribe to any one theistic belief. It does not mean you are saying there is no God with certainty. But we can claim that all evidence points to other explanations that suggest that we live in a Godless universe or a purposeless universe.

"Purpose" is typically defined in religion as a sort of "higher purpose." If you want to lob "humanized causal purpose" into that category as a way to say that everyone is religious because we all "do things," then good luck to you. You may as well call an apple religious because it falls from a tree.

You're trying to argue that any sort of "purpose" is somehow "religious" in nature. I am saying this is clearly false -- "purpose" is, in itself, a highly loaded term. We can define it as either a function of "higher purpose" (a certain end-goal or meaning invoked by a higher authority) or a "human purpose" (something we do in our everyday lives with some desire or goal). The former has no evidence and the latter does -- the latter one isn't a "belief" in the same manner. I don't hold any positive beliefs about the purpose of the universe. I hold true to the facts and evidence that tell me that I do what I do because of utility, which is a well-evidenced concept that ties into events just as arbitrary as the apple example I mentioned earlier (at their origin and core). This isn't a religious statement, but is instead a simple function of causality through evolution and necessary conditions. But again, if you want to define this "purpose" as "religious," then you must, logically, claim that an apple falling from a tree is religious or that a bear eating fish is "religious" or that a rock sitting still for centuries is "religious."

Iam90 10-29-2010 11:57 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3328590)


statistics can determine a lot of useless **** if you don't take the time to critically think about things from an inside view

i'm not saying it's possible to view as many things with an inside view than it is with a broad mathematical view but those statistics can be interpreted in a lot of useless ways

making religion the enemy is like making stupidity the enemy. it's detracting from where a real focus should be by focusing on meta-elements (and also issues that you aren't going to make a lot of progress with whatever specific problem domain they create by combating on this meta-level.) i haven't found a reason to try to deal with anything beyond a case-by-case basis. i have a feeling a smarty like rubix or iam90 could come up with something tho.

i actually mostly agree with u i just dissent to a certain degree. obviously the consequences of religion aren't truly inherent to religion, but underlying factors - ignorance, fear, etc - basic human problems - but i do think that religion, given its specific subject matter, is an incredible amplifier of these basic human problems. i don't know any other system that can take problems like fear and amplify them and justify them to such a degree with its dogma - because it necessarily invokes the highest justifications; eternity, omnipotence, etc.

that's why i'd like to see people more educated on the subject of religion... if we didn't have concepts like God to fall back on, maybe we wouldn't be so deft at justifying our basic flaws...

but probably we would. who knows

MrRubix 10-29-2010 01:43 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
The problem is that people do things in the name of religion. It augments and organizes unjustified thought into a potential weapon, and that's what I dislike about it. You don't see atheists organizing together and doing awful things in the name of atheism.

As religion is an emergence of the human psyche/ego, again, the only way to stomp out the negative effects is to promote education. We typically find that the more educated/intelligent one is, the less likely they are to be religious. I don't have a problem holding an arbitrary belief in a God as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. But what I DO have a problem with:

-Telling kids that they will burn in hell for their sins
-Promoting nonsense about not questioning authority under rule of God
-Teaching falsehoods and spreading misinformation about science based on religious scriptures (such as trying to argue that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, etc)
-Trying to push religious doctrine into schools, public policy, government, etc.
-Causing harm to others in the name of your religion or scripture

Oni-Paranoia 10-29-2010 01:54 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3328804)
The problem is that people do things in the name of religion. It augments and organizes unjustified thought into a potential weapon, and that's what I dislike about it. You don't see atheists organizing together and doing awful things in the name of atheism.

As religion is an emergence of the human psyche/ego, again, the only way to stomp out the negative effects is to promote education. We typically find that the more educated/intelligent one is, the less likely they are to be religious. I don't have a problem holding an arbitrary belief in a God as long as it doesn't hurt anyone. But what I DO have a problem with:

-Telling kids that they will burn in hell for their sins
-Promoting nonsense about not questioning authority under rule of God
-Teaching falsehoods and spreading misinformation about science based on religious scriptures (such as trying to argue that the Earth is only 6,000 years old, etc)
-Trying to push religious doctrine into schools, public policy, government, etc.
-Causing harm to others in the name of your religion or scripture

Completely agree.

kommisar 10-29-2010 02:32 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
but then morals and assimilation!!


the least america could do is remove religion from their system entirely. I'd be sad to see an excellent presidential candidate not get voted in because he doesn't believe in god.

D!LL 10-29-2010 04:05 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
I look through this thread and see a lot of people that just shouldn't be in here talking about anything.

More so than anything else.

War is hell. Don't pretend to understand it.

For those of you who have a semblance of what's going on, more power to ya', and for those of you who actually know what's going on... You're too far and in between.

Zat is all.

fido123 10-29-2010 06:06 PM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by D!LL (Post 3328936)
War is hell. Don't pretend to understand it.

You don't have to know what it's like to be in a war, to try to understand and think about the politics behind it.

stargroup100 10-31-2010 05:13 AM

Re: Iraq war documents leak shows US is ****ing awful.
 
Goddamn I need to stop posting this late at night. I don't even remember typing that.

I'll have to find some time to read this thread at some point because I'm too sleepy right now. -__-


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