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~Zeta~ 10-10-2010 02:39 AM

Is it wrong to be racist?
 
A teacher came up with this question when a student in one of my classes said that the substitute was racist:

Is it truly wrong to be a racist person?

I argued it isn't wrong to be racist. It is perfect human for all of man's actions and decisions. If someone's different, it may be unsettling but it does not mean to give them a title and a bad reputation from stereotyping and recurring events. No matter what you do or say, there will always be racist people. There are those mindsets that people have.

What do you think?

Discuss.

Patashu 10-10-2010 02:50 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
The ugly truth is that racism has a basis - if you take a random white person and a random black person in the USA, for instance, chances are the random white person is better off and has been incriminated for less.

BUT, this is only because racism exists in the first place! Racism is self perpetuating, because it forces that race into being an underclass due to lower levels of compassion and juries being more likely to sentence them/cops being more likely to sentence them.

Racism is useful, thus, in the sense that stamping all poor people or people who have done prison time in a visible place for life would be useful - you can use it as an indication of the kind of people to avoid, and it'll be right more often than picking randomly will be, but only because it is done in the first place.

~Zeta~ 10-10-2010 01:03 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patashu (Post 3306937)
BUT, this is only because racism exists in the first place! Racism is self perpetuating, because it forces that race into being an underclass due to lower levels of compassion and juries being more likely to sentence them/cops being more likely to sentence them.

I wouldn't say that racism forces them as an underclass. In a social structure, it places them lower to that certain racist. Everyone is racist in at least one way. It's inevitable. So, where one race may be put down by one, the race being put down may thrive equal or perhaps envied.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patashu (Post 3306937)
Racism is useful, thus, in the sense that stamping all poor people or people who have done prison time in a visible place for life would be useful - you can use it as an indication of the kind of people to avoid, and it'll be right more often than picking randomly will be, but only because it is done in the first place.

On the other side, racism leads to major hate crimes, riots, badgering, and vulgar titles that still stand today. Depending on the person, the benefits could outweigh the wrongs, after all, most of the wrongs about racism is word and biased based.

Zageron 10-10-2010 01:14 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
A mindset is grown, not cemented.
If your parents are racist, you are more likely to be racist. The same is if you are well off, and the majority of the people in the slums are darker coloured, you might come to say that 'dark skinned people are dirty' or 'people who live in the street get so dirty that their skin turns a darker colour, therefore dark skinned people all live in the slums.

I, personally, am only racist because of the media. When I see someone with a turban I feel slightly scared, same as when I see a huge black man I get worried for my safety.

This doesn't change the fact that hating another race or colour simply because of past influences is alright. Racism is NOT born with us, it is grown.

MrRubix 10-11-2010 04:38 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Not at all

Izzy 10-11-2010 05:03 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
I would say yes. You can hate a lot of people that are a particular race but everyone should be considered an individual. If over the years you've met 500 people of a particular race and you didn't like any of them or any of their values or opinions then you could have the belief that it is very likely that you will not like anyone of that particular race, but that is a fallacy.

Edit: I'd like to add that the reason most people are racist is because of their upbringing and not their fault. I still think you should make an effort to think otherwise.

TF_cyanide 10-11-2010 05:04 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3308521)
Not at all

^ that.

nothing much else to say, although im surprised people here share the same opinion as me. i was usually the one debating all alone against everyone else in dragons fury. this is a good change <3 ffr

racism is as natural as lying.

Dark-GFx 10-11-2010 05:05 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
There will always be men and women who don't like or won't feel fond of someone for inequalities that they have such as the color of their skin and such as where they come from regardless if it's wrong or right. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and i respect that but in my opinion i think it's wrong for someone to hate another man or women just for that inequality. I am personally not racist, hypocritical, or stereotypical on any of these kind of thoughts/ opinions but like i said regardless to what people will do to fight against these kinds of thoughts there will always be someone there against it.

MrGiggles 10-11-2010 05:36 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
black "people"

Putting jokes aside, I'm pretty much with Patashu on this, except for:
Quote:

BUT, this is only because racism exists in the first place!
There's many reasons for racism, and while it does tend to help perpetuate itself I think that's a very small factor in the whole thing. But that's just a small qualm with wording and I get the spirit behind the post.

MrRubix 10-11-2010 06:18 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Here is my general opinion.

It's completely stupid to ignore a statistical trend and pretend it doesn't exist because it hurts people's feelings and causes them disutility. Yeah, it may be hurtful to say "On average, this race suffers from these problems and this race is better at such and such and is generally richer/smarter based on these metrics" and so forth. But that doesn't make these things somehow untrue.

But "wrong" and "right" refer to moral scope, and in this case, it's typically a bad idea to assume that someone IS a certain way. It'd be like taking a number from a random distribution and saying that it's "wrong" to expect it to be between A and B with 80% probability, even if it's empirically true.

So, yes, based on your outward properties, I can make an assumption of other qualities based on statistical expectation. However, it would be foolish of me to say that someone IS that way before I have a chance to witness the variables. The reality may differ from the expectation. But I can still say that the more and more random samples I take from the distribution, the more and more we'll see a convergence to certain averages.

That's all.

MrRubix 10-11-2010 06:28 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Patashu: Racism is only partially self-perpetuating. A lot of it has to do with resources/geography in the first place. When you have access to resources, it's easier to leverage your position and become richer/better off through economies of scale, whereas if you're **** out of luck, you remain **** out of luck. Repeat over multiple generations, and you catalyze a variety of other trends. Some people are just born luckier than others.

If you happen to be born near an ample water supply and area with land that could be cultivated, it's much easier to focus on more advanced, complex things that ultimately create synergies and thus more riches... whereas the person born in a place with very scare resources or poor leadership is going to be focused primarily on survival and survival only.

There are COUNTLESS examples of this, but the general idea is that racism is obviously the result of race, and race is the result of geography, the environment, resources, etc.

fido123 10-11-2010 06:32 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Race is simply the ethnicity of a person. The ethnicity of a person does not define who that person is, what that person does, how that person thinks. The only thing the ethnicity of a person effects is how somebody looks. Why can't we judge people based on the character of a person instead of where they were from originally? Obviously there's more to it than that but at it's core, that's all racism is.

MrRubix 10-11-2010 06:41 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by fido123 (Post 3308637)
Race is simply the ethnicity of a person. The ethnicity of a person does not define who that person is, what that person does, how that person thinks. The only thing the ethnicity of a person effects is how somebody looks. Why can't we judge people based on the character of a person instead of where they were from originally? Obviously there's more to it than that but at it's core, that's all racism is.

Except that is a very naive and statistically untrue way to look at it. Granted, it's always a good idea to get to know someone first before making too many generalizations.

ledwix 10-11-2010 07:15 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3308629)
Here is my general opinion.

It's completely stupid to ignore a statistical trend and pretend it doesn't exist because it hurts people's feelings and causes them disutility. Yeah, it may be hurtful to say "On average, this race suffers from these problems and this race is better at such and such and is generally richer/smarter based on these metrics" and so forth. But that doesn't make these things somehow untrue.

QFT.

Statistical information just needs to be carefully analyzed. But it definitely EXISTS and gives us facts about the world. I imagine lining all humans up by height, recording their genders, and then making a chart showing the overlap between the male distribution and the female distribution. There will obviously be considerable overlap, and at the same time, it will be just as obvious that men are, on average, several inches taller than women. If anyone is offended by that, then well, they're offended. But that doesn't remove the facts or remove the information it gives us about how to prepare for situations in which we are designing products where the height of the average person who will use the product is relevant, for instance.

Knowing how to make generalizations is how we learn stuff about the world. Life begins almost exactly as a dream, a wishy washy stream of chaos, and we learn to sharpen that image of what goes on around us as we move along and learn general facts about the world that often apply to multiple things. Suppose one wasn't allowed to make ANY generalizations. Then you get nonsense like this: "Don't ask me if I'm in college just because I look college-aged. Stop stereotyping me." "What, you asked me if I speak Mandarin? Is that just because I'm from mainland China? You racist!" The incentive for chit chat with people we just met would go down the drain.

At the same time, knowing when to apply those generalizations, how accurate those generalizations are, (i.e. the size and shape of the distribution) and when to make conclusions based on those generalizations, is also how we learn more sophisticated things about the world.

In essence, I am saying that racism is a smaller category of the body of statements that would most often be considered racist. Some things are facts, while other things are unjustified slippery-slope speculations. I think statistics should be far more emphasized in the math curriculum.

Vendetta21 10-11-2010 08:08 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Indigenous Africans suffer from centuries of inbreeding and malnutrition and that has a huge factor on trying to improve living conditions in Africa.

But trying to apply geographic traits, such as gang culture, to the broader category black people, is pretty much wanton bigotry.

qqwref 10-11-2010 10:48 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Completely depends on the degree.

If you're taking statistical trends and assuming Asians are more likely to be good at math, blacks are more likely to talk a certain way, etc. before you meet them, that's reasonable. Making decisions due to observed patterns is an extremely useful skill. Of course, I'd expect an intelligent person to be ready to immediately think the opposite about an individual if they see evidence that that person doesn't fit the trend.

On the other hand, if you're discriminating in the sense of hating everyone from a given race, or considering them all inferior or incapable of something a normal person could do - or even attacking someone you don't know just because of their race - you've got a problem. Logic can't justify something like that.

Patashu 10-12-2010 12:54 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3308633)
Patashu: Racism is only partially self-perpetuating. A lot of it has to do with resources/geography in the first place. When you have access to resources, it's easier to leverage your position and become richer/better off through economies of scale, whereas if you're **** out of luck, you remain **** out of luck. Repeat over multiple generations, and you catalyze a variety of other trends. Some people are just born luckier than others.

If you happen to be born near an ample water supply and area with land that could be cultivated, it's much easier to focus on more advanced, complex things that ultimately create synergies and thus more riches... whereas the person born in a place with very scare resources or poor leadership is going to be focused primarily on survival and survival only.

There are COUNTLESS examples of this, but the general idea is that racism is obviously the result of race, and race is the result of geography, the environment, resources, etc.

Of course it's not the only cause, but it's a major cause in countries where multiple ethnicities co-exist and the only difference between them is their respective 'momentums' and how they're perceived by others (= how kindly they're treated, how harshly they're prosecuted, etc). If every black person in the US suddenly lost all the traits that everyone used to differentiate races but we somehow tracked them over the generations, they'd rise up from being an underclass, as there's no way to discriminate against them - except by their lower levels of wealth, and white poor people are better off on average than black poor people, because of racist effects (like choosing who to hire for a job, being more likely to prosecute and find guilty for petty crime, etc etc)

MrRubix 10-12-2010 01:03 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
What you're describing is not really a "cause" but rather a perpetuated effect resulting from the pre-established class systems to begin with. If two races in a society had equal statuses, we would expect a 50-50 shot at seeing one eventually outpace the other, and this is NOT what we see. Yes, we may see cases of discrimination against choosing who to hire, but I ask you who's doing the hiring to begin with?

ALL of this, at its very core, stems from the fundamental geographic distributions and resource access. From there you can extrapolate every other effect. You imply that if you removed differentiating factors (I am assuming by this you mean physical appearance or things along those lines?), there wouldn't be much difference in the underlying factors. This is, in fact, untrue. Probability alone shows you how you can take a handful of traits and figure out how likely it is that that person came from a specific distribution.

Studies like these have been done ad nauseum.

It's a little misleading to say that racial perception is a "cause" because, while technically true, it's not very meaningful. Racial perceptions exist because they are largely reinforced by kernels of truth. You can't remove the indicators and imply that the underlying traits are somehow indistinguishable, because that's demonstratively false.

xxxim_a_noobxxx 10-12-2010 01:06 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
I think it's alright to have pride for your race but to generalize a race based on something is wrong.





EXP:say someone of a different race caused me some sort of emotional pain it would be that person to blame not the race itself..

Iam90 10-12-2010 01:43 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309372)
What you're describing is not really a "cause" but rather a perpetuated effect resulting from the pre-established class systems to begin with. If two races in a society had equal statuses, we would expect a 50-50 shot at seeing one eventually outpace the other, and this is NOT what we see. Yes, we may see cases of discrimination against choosing who to hire, but I ask you who's doing the hiring to begin with?

ALL of this, at its very core, stems from the fundamental geographic distributions and resource access. From there you can extrapolate every other effect. You imply that if you removed differentiating factors (I am assuming by this you mean physical appearance or things along those lines?), there wouldn't be much difference in the underlying factors. This is, in fact, untrue. Probability alone shows you how you can take a handful of traits and figure out how likely it is that that person came from a specific distribution.

Studies like these have been done ad nauseum.

It's a little misleading to say that racial perception is a "cause" because, while technically true, it's not very meaningful. Racial perceptions exist because they are largely reinforced by kernels of truth. You can't remove the indicators and imply that the underlying traits are somehow indistinguishable, because that's demonstratively false.

I think you're missing a point here, which is that "racists" in the classic sense of the word don't reinforce their racial perceptions with the kernels of truth you're talking about - they reinforce their racial perceptions through superstition, religion, misguided biology and bigotry. And, subsequently, they devalue a race for being "inferior."

It's not that certain factors such as geography and resource distribution don't advantage certain races over another; Jared Diamond covers that amply. It's that most racists view a race as inherently advantaged over others through the very fiber of their being, and then make the further value judgment that such a race is somehow less valuable/less human for being disadvantaged.

You're muddling up peoples' concepts of negative racial perception; it's quite obvious that when people ask the question "is it ok to be racist?" they mean "is it ok to view a race as inherently inferior, and is it ok to dehumanize/devalue them as a result?" to which none of your points are answers.

Cavernio 10-12-2010 06:33 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Patashu wrote "If every black person in the US suddenly lost all the traits that everyone used to differentiate races but we somehow tracked them over the generations, they'd rise up from being an underclass"

I strongly disagree, for reasons others have mentioned. It is not race which has made black people poor, nor is it racism. It is a stratified social structure. Blacks were not made slaves in North America because they were black, it was because their people were in no position to stop themselves from being caught by fleets of white men. In the same way, it is not only the fact that they are black which keeps poor black people poor. All we'd have to do prove that what you say won't happen would be to follow a large number of poor white families for a few generations to see if they are likely to become unpoor, something which we CAN do now, and which probably has been done.
Our society does not do well with making people 'equal'.

On another note, I agree with Fido. It is not being naive, it is the recognition that labelling an individual based on statistics or first glance suppositions, is just not right. Obviously it is alright to talk about people in groups and to generalize...we sort of have to. It is, however, not alright to think of any given individual in those terms.
For instance, it is not ok to, after seeing a black teenager wearing baggy clothes, think 'oh, he might be part of a gang, I should stay away from him, and I'm totally justified in thinking that because I'm just looking out for my safety and following statistics which say black teenage guys in baggy clothes are much more likely to be a gang member.' A much better thought process, imo, would be 'oh, he's wearing baggy clothes and he's black, he might be part of a gang, but that would be pretty slanderous and offensive of me to think that right away...I don't want people summing ME up in a glance.' Unless you want people to sum you up in a glance I suppose...in which case, if you'd like to be thought of as your stereotype, I guess my point is irrelevant.

edit: I guess I shouldn't think negatively of all gangs though should I...

MrRubix 10-12-2010 08:50 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Iam90: No, incorrect. Where do you think the bigotry comes from in the first place? It is certainly muddled by ignorance, religion, misguided scientific facts, politics, and so forth -- but that's just a sort of classic group-effect. The racism itself is ground in kernels of truth and perpetuated by other Darwinian means (namely the environment, distribution of resources, and other biological impulses built into survival traits).

"It's not that certain factors such as geography and resource distribution don't advantage certain races over another; Jared Diamond covers that amply. It's that most racists view a race as inherently advantaged over others through the very fiber of their being, and then make the further value judgment that such a race is somehow less valuable/less human for being disadvantaged. "

You are retarded, btw. Go look into "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Diamond. He argues the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 09:17 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309614)
Iam90: No, incorrect. Where do you think the bigotry comes from in the first place? It is certainly muddled by ignorance, religion, misguided scientific facts, politics, and so forth -- but that's just a sort of classic group-effect. The racism itself is ground in kernels of truth and perpetuated by other Darwinian means (namely the environment, distribution of resources, and other biological impulses built into survival traits).

"It's not that certain factors such as geography and resource distribution don't advantage certain races over another; Jared Diamond covers that amply. It's that most racists view a race as inherently advantaged over others through the very fiber of their being, and then make the further value judgment that such a race is somehow less valuable/less human for being disadvantaged. "

You are retarded, btw. Go look into "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Diamond. He argues the exact opposite of what you're saying.

Gun, Germs, and Steel refutes the psychic unity of mankind but it doesn't tell you that black people are going to become gangsters, mexicans are going to be landscapers, and people in the south are going to be lost in cyclical virulent spiral of inherited Scottish Honor culture.

I think you don't understand Diamond's argument.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 09:35 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Cavernio: Also incorrect. Again, just because something might be "offensive" doesn't make it less/more true or likely. We, as humans, find racism offensive because we typically don't like being typecasted as somehow being equivalent with our averages within our distribution. The problem comes in how we try to close these divisions between races, which do exist. One thing is for certain: You cannot get rid of racism by simply pretending it does not exist. The best you can do is try to subsidize the weaknesses in one group to give them a chance to catch up to the rest of society until certain "negative" idiosyncrasies start to fade out. This is, of course, incredibly difficult to do once certain trends have taken hold.

Examining quotes from Fido:

"The only thing the ethnicity of a person effects is how somebody looks"
-While true, that is not the only thing we can know about someone. People who evolved into one race other the other grew up in a different environment, and people from different environments have, over time, on average, acquired different cultural, social, intellectual, financial, religious, and political values.

"Why can't we judge people based on the character of a person instead of where they were from originally? Obviously there's more to it than that but at it's core, that's all racism is."
-Absolutely -- but this case is muddled. The "random distributions" become skewed because, say, if you only focus on people of different races within your like-environment, you're naturally going to find a greater degree of homogeneity. However, this is not true if we delve into random sampling. It's always a good idea to get to know someone before putting them in a certain category -- just as silly as it would be for me to say that "Because all fishes of species X are generally tastier than fishes Y, I will assume that all X fish are tastier than Y fish." There's obviously going to be overlap even if the statistical/empirical averages hold up to be true via Law of Large Numbers.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 09:37 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3309626)
Gun, Germs, and Steel refutes the psychic unity of mankind but it doesn't tell you that black people are going to become gangsters, mexicans are going to be landscapers, and people in the south are going to be lost in cyclical virulent spiral of inherited Scottish Honor culture.

I think you don't understand Diamond's argument.

Holy mother of God.

That's not what Diamond argues at all. His entire argument is surrounded about the concept of resource distribution and effects of geography. Hence, how one society gets access to GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL over another and how this eventually leads to perceived racial superiorities.

You people need to just hang yourselves for stupidity.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 09:48 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309631)
Holy mother of God.

That's not what Diamond argues at all. His entire argument is surrounded about the concept of resource distribution and effects of geography. Hence, how one society gets access to GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL over another and how this eventually leads to perceived racial superiorities.

You people need to just hang yourselves for stupidity.

No the part about aborigines refutes the psychic unity of mankind and the part about resources explains pretty simply a non-racist explanation for why Europe came out on top but it doesn't justify being racist which is what my example was talking about.

You're making some weird argument justifying some arcane definition of racism and it seems like you aren't getting much disagreement about the fact that culture, geography, and environment make a difference but it trying to defend that as some sort of racism is kinda dumb IMO and it comes across like the people who point out the flaws in global climate change theories and then the subsequent effect is people think global climate change is bunk.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 09:52 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
How about you read the book first before you act as if you know what you're talking about.

You're putting up strawmen arguments. The point here isn't to "justify" racism -- nobody here is doing that. It's to say that racism has its grounds in the environment -- there are statistical truths to racism. The fact that it is offensive does not make it any less true.

We're all in general agreement that it's generally a bad idea to typecast a particular person before we get to know them. But it's also an unavoidable fact that, on average, people on certain races will fit certain trends.

The question is what we plan to do about that on a micro and macro scale.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 09:57 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309643)
How about you read the book first before you act as if you know what you're talking about.

You're putting up strawmen arguments. The point here isn't to "justify" racism -- nobody here is doing that. It's to say that racism has its grounds in the environment -- there are statistical truths to racism. The fact that it is offensive does not make it any less true.

We're all in general agreement that it's generally a bad idea to typecast a particular person before we get to know them. But it's also an unavoidable fact that, on average, people on certain races will fit certain trends.

The question is what we plan to do about that on a micro and macro scale.

No you're trying to redefine what we mean by racism through mental gymnastics it isn't a strawman it's a pretty straightforward point.

The book is an irrelevant tangent to the basic point. You're acting like the guy who read one book that blew his mind and then wanted to start arguing based on it via Atlas Shrugged except in this case you've picked a good book.

Staiain 10-12-2010 09:58 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
I'm not sure if I shoud call myself a racist or not. I don't hate people because of their race, but behavior/culture/attitude.

For example: I don't honestly like peope from eastern europe, countrie like poland, latvia, russia etc because lots of them come to my country as bandits stealing the **** out us then they steal a truck or something and transport all the stolen goods to their home country and sells it for major profit. I honestly never have had the chance of knowing a single person from those countries that behave what is by our standards acceptable.

I used to live in a dorm with 3 rooms, and when I moved in there was a swedish girl, and a swedish-turkish guy living there. but ehen that girl moved out a latvian moved in, partying all night, stealing all the bandwidth on the internet. When he moved out a new latvian guy moved in, he was having his friends sleep there and use up all the hot water in the shower including stealing my shampoo. Even use the washing machine all the time, he even threw my wet laundry on the floor when he needed to use the machine.

I don't know if this is racism or not though.


Another example:

When I lived with my dad there was this house close by, always foreigners moved in there.

One day I was on my way to a soccer training about 10 years ago, suddenly 2 black dudes alot older than me started beating me up like only a minute after I left my house for NO REASON AT ALL. And their younger sister stole my bike...

Do I hate black people for that? No.

Do I always assume that people from that country find it hard to fit into our society and follow our rules when they come to this country ? Yes.


Hope I'm not offending anyone with this.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 10:01 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
I've also read The 10,000 Year Explosion which is the argument you're making on steroids still tangential.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 10:04 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Staiain (Post 3309646)
I'm not sure if I shoud call myself a racist or not. I don't hate people because of their race, but behavior/culture/attitude.

For example: I don't honestly like peope from eastern europe, countrie like poland, latvia, russia etc because lots of them come to my country as bandits stealing the **** out us then they steal a truck or something and transport all the stolen goods to their home country and sells it for major profit. I honestly never have had the chance of knowing a single person from those countries that behave what is by our standards acceptable.

I used to live in a dorm with 3 rooms, and when I moved in there was a swedish girl, and a swedish-turkish guy living there. but ehen that girl moved out a latvian moved in, partying all night, stealing all the bandwidth on the internet. When he moved out a new latvian guy moved in, he was having his friends sleep there and use up all the hot water in the shower including stealing my shampoo. Even use the washing machine all the time, he even threw my wet laundry on the floor when he needed to use the machine.

I don't know if this is racism or not though.


Another example:

When I lived with my dad there was this house close by, always foreigners moved in there.

One day I was on my way to a soccer training about 10 years ago, suddenly 2 black dudes alot older than me started beating me up like only a minute after I left my house for NO REASON AT ALL. And their younger sister stole my bike...

Do I hate black people for that? No.

Do I always assume that people from that country find it hard to fit into our society and follow our rules when they come to this country ? Yes.


Hope I'm not offending anyone with this.

Quit trying to broaden the category you don't need to associate people with their country or the skin color you are completely capable of doing it on a case-by-case basis. Doing anything like that is turning humanity into a bunch of teams.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 10:35 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
"You're making some weird argument justifying some arcane definition of racism" <-- strawman argument. I'm not justifying an arcane form of racism. I am defining what has, at its roots, caused racism -- as well as the underlying truths and issues.

Nobody disagrees about what we mean by racism. Racism is the belief that one race is superior/inferior to another, at the most basic level of definition (genetics aside). It's definitely "wrong" to be racist in this way (because, not only is it "morally wrong" as a result of being offensive, where morality is a construct of social optima, but it's "statistically wrong" to judge the value of a set of variables before they are observed. It's also biologically false). The question arises when we look at distributions, where the trends DO emerge. It is wrong, statistically, to deny that these trends exist. Whenever we meet someone new, it's always a good idea to keep an open mind and not judge by race, to be sure.

The question is when it becomes "wrong" to take these trends into account, and when it becomes more "equitable," on the flipside, to take the trends into account in decisionmaking.

"The book is an irrelevant tangent to the basic point. You're acting like the guy who read one book that blew his mind and then wanted to start arguing based on it via Atlas Shrugged except in this case you've picked a good book."

No, I'm speaking as the guy who's probably read every book you've ever read in your entire life, multiplied ten times over. "Atlas Shrugged" being a ****ty book is probably the only reasonable thing you've said in this thread.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 10:38 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309667)
"You're making some weird argument justifying some arcane definition of racism" <-- strawman argument. I'm not justifying an arcane form of racism. I am defining what has, at its roots, caused racism -- as well as the underlying truths and issues.

Nobody disagrees about what we mean by racism. Racism is the belief that one race is superior/inferior to another, at the most basic level of definition (genetics aside). It's definitely "wrong" to be racist in this way (because, not only is it "morally wrong" as a result of being offensive, where morality is a construct of social optima, but it's "statistically wrong" to judge the value of a set of variables before they are observed. It's also biologically false). The question arises when we look at distributions, where the trends DO emerge. It is not wrong, statistically, to deny that these trends exist. Whenever we meet someone new, it's always a good idea to keep an open mind and not judge by race, to be sure.

The question is when it becomes "wrong" to take these trends into account, and when it becomes more "equitable," on the flipside, to take the trends into account in decisionmaking.

"The book is an irrelevant tangent to the basic point. You're acting like the guy who read one book that blew his mind and then wanted to start arguing based on it via Atlas Shrugged except in this case you've picked a good book."

No, I'm speaking as the guy who's probably read every book you've ever read in your entire life, multiplied ten times over. "Atlas Shrugged" being a ****ty book is probably the only reasonable thing you've said in this thread.

Yes because with macro-trending information you can understand all the complexities that go into someone's personality.

You should go into Macro Econ you seem to have just the attitude that they NEED right now.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 10:40 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
"You should go into Macro Econ you seem to have just the attitude that they NEED right now."

Hahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahaha

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 10:41 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Also ****in' LOL you think you've read all the books I have times ten. I'm an ADHD dumbass but I'm pretty sure that's not even ****ing close to the truth.

You must have a God complex from arguing with lethargic retards on Rhythm forums all the time where you inundate them with inane details and big words in spergtastic tangents.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 10:44 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3309668)
Yes because with macro-trending information you can understand all the complexities that go into someone's personality.

I feel like you have some sort of inability to read.

Do you understand statistics, like, at all?

MrRubix 10-12-2010 10:45 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3309672)
Also ****in' LOL you think you've read all the books I have times ten. I'm an ADHD dumbass but I'm pretty sure that's not even ****ing close to the truth.

You must have a God complex from arguing with lethargic retards on Rhythm forums all the time where you inundate them with inane details and big words in spergtastic tangents.

Uh, without a doubt, I know this to be true.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 10:46 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309673)
I feel like you have some sort of inability to read.

Do you understand statistics, like, at all?

Enough to know when they are and aren't worth caring about.

I'm not going to go into a bar and think about all the statistics I know about the qualities of everyone in the room but that's mainly because I'm not an elitist sociopath.

But I see that you're an armchair policy-maker so the only considerations for you are macro considerations so carry on.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 10:47 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3309676)
Enough to know when they are and aren't worth caring about.

I'm not going to go into a bar and think about all the statistics I know about the qualities of everyone in the room but that's mainly because I'm not an elitist sociopath.

But I see that you're an armchair policy-maker so the only considerations for you are macro considerations so carry on.

Alright, then answer your own question, which I've posted already: When is it okay to take the trends into account? When is it not?

If you ignore macro trends then you have a very poor handling of statistics.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 10:50 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309678)
Alright, then answer your own question, which I've posted already: When is it okay to take the trends into account? When is it not?

If you ignore macro trends then you have a very poor handling of statistics.

When you're considering macro things? God you have such a ****ing axiomatic parametric view of the world. You keep fitting those lines to those scatter plots buddy.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 10:54 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
As a top-grade quad major from the best business school in the world, I don't have to. I actually know how to apply analysis to the real world.

I'm not a naive sucker like you who thinks that we can handwave macro trends and pretend that the variance melts down in smaller subsets. That's just complete retardation.


I also showed your arguments to a friend of mine who is doing her dissertation on this stuff -- she's a Harvard/Penn graduate, btw -- and she, too, says you are full of it. Exactly the kind of thinking that perpetuates ignorance and general stupidity regarding racism. You absolutely cannot solve the problem with arguments like yours.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 11:07 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mrrubix (Post 3309680)
as a top-grade quad major from the best business school in the world, i don't have to. I actually know how to apply analysis to the real world.

I'm not a naive sucker like you who thinks that we can handwave macro trends and pretend that the variance melts down in smaller subsets. That's just complete retardation.


I also showed your arguments to a friend of mine who is doing her dissertation on this stuff -- she's a harvard/penn graduate, btw -- and she, too, says you are full of it. Exactly the kind of thinking that perpetuates ignorance and general stupidity regarding racism. You absolutely cannot solve the problem with arguments like yours.

bahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 11:07 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
*chortles and wipes a tear*

Today. Today has been a good day.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:08 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Yeah, laugh because you have nothing of substance to refute with

You're way of of your league son

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 11:11 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309689)
Yeah, laugh because you have nothing of substance to refute with

You're way of of your league son

Kind've like you're argument was a non-sequitor argument from authority?

Oh here let me respond with a stock rebuttal:
http://lesswrong.com/lw/1lo/high_sta...stupidity_why/

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:14 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
you miss the point
I only bring the status to show that I've studied statistics/mathematics/finance/econ/all this ****. it's not like i'm pulling stuff out of my ass, here.

what you're doing is completely ****ting on statistics for a utopian ideal, and it's completely bunk.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:15 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
oh no dev :O

the thread's done for

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:17 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
how about this vendetta

take a statistics course. understand what variance is. look at the implications of given distributions and what it means to take a random sample and what that implies. learn what bayes rule is and how it may apply to "day to day"/"case by case" situations as you seem to think this is all that matters. learn a little bit more about the intersection of racism and classism.

actually read the books you refer to (Guns, Germs, and Steel is an excellent start) -- and understand what this implies for the different races we see today.

^everything i've quoted above is INCREDIBLY basic **** and shouldn't be too hard for someone who claims to be a voracious reader

then maybe we'll talk again

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 11:19 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309698)
you miss the point
I only bring the status to show that I've studied statistics/mathematics/finance/econ/all this ****. it's not like i'm pulling stuff out of my ass, here.

what you're doing is completely ****ting on statistics for a utopian ideal, and it's completely bunk.

no dude this is an irrelevant tangent i was saying something simple for simple people to be simply understood and that is to make judgments about people on a case-by-case basis

it's utopian yes but if someone tries to do that they can make some successes on it and be a better person

you're making irrelevant tangents to this incredibly basic point because you pride yourself on being a sophisticated arguer and it seems like you value knowledge only insofar as it helps you win arguments, and because you feel you have such high status as being intelligent you can't just say "yeah i get that's its pretty ****in' simple any plebian could understand it"

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:21 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3309704)
no dude this is an irrelevant tangent i was saying something simple for simple people to be simply understood and that is to make judgments about people on a case-by-case basis

it's utopian yes but if someone tries to do that they can make some successes on it and be a better person

you're making irrelevant tangents to this incredibly basic point because you pride yourself on being a sophisticated arguer and it seems like you value knowledge only insofar as it helps you win arguments, and because you feel you have such high status as being intelligent you can't just say "yeah i get that's its pretty ****in' simple any plebian could understand it"

good luck solving real problems with utopian approaches. far worse than connecting dots on a scatter plot. let's just repeat the mistakes of history, shall we.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 11:21 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Young FFR CT Poster: "Is it wrong to be racist?"
Ivy-League Promethian Genius Mr Rubix "Well if you study as much as I do about this issue that's very important to me you can begin to use macro-statistics to understand the elements of racism to have some poignant analysis that will help you live your life. But you can't possibly understand it because I'm way out of your ****ing league and I've read more books than you could possibly ever attempt it HAHAHAHA, plebians!"
Young FFR CT Poster: "So it's okay to be racist?"

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:22 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3309707)
Young FFR CT Poster: "Is it wrong to be racist?"
Ivy-League Promethian Genius Mr Rubix "Well if you study as much as I do about this issue that's very important to me you can begin to use macro-statistics to understand the elements of racism to have some poignant analysis that will help you live your life. But you can't possibly understand it because I'm way out of your ****ing league and I've read more books than you could possibly ever attempt it HAHAHAHA, plebians!"
Young FFR CT Poster: "So it's okay to be racist?"

Maybe if you looked into the points I raised and the statistical concepts I quoted in the above paragraph, you'd realize why your argument is actually complete ****.

devonin 10-12-2010 11:23 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
As someone who has also read Guns, Germs, and Steel, I have to say that Rubix is reaching a little bit for his conclusion, but it's not any less valid for the reaching than V's is for being closer to the obvious thesis of the book as a whole.

The issue here is that Diamond et al provide a reason for the superior advance of white europe over the rest of the world that had nothing at all to do with genetics, culture or anything else that we use as a basis for racism, that is to say, that the reason white people ended up being the dominant culture had, if nothing else, nothing at all to do with their being white.

To suggest that racism does, however have -some- basis in truth isn't -false- Historically various cultures have done things before, better than, or instead of various other cultures in a way that has given them advantages militarily, culturally, socially, etc etc so as to suggest that they must have some special something which makes them better.

The issue is that the conclusion (That a given race actually -is- naturally better than another) isn't true. It's a false conclusion based on false premises, which is what Diamond was getting at all along.

So while a -consequence- of the entirely non-genetic causes of european cultural, scientific and military advancement ahead of the rest of the world was an idea that therefore such people were intrinsically better than other people, the -reason- for that advancement had nothing to do with race, and so racism as a concept is bunk.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:28 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Dev: Incorrect. I'm not reaching at all for my conclusion -- it's the result of history, evolution, and statistics. These things are *well* supported. The conclusion you assume "reaches" is statistical truth.

We can say that a person selected from a race distribution is, on average, going to have statistically significant comparisons to a person selected from another race distribution, because these distributions are derived from very discrete sets that stem from widening gap effects on a variety of metrics.

To the extent that one race is "naturally" superior over another is only as strong as the extent of the benefits granted from historical causality based on initial conditions stemming from geography and resource. Diamond agrees with this, I agree with this, and I am pretty sure you agree with it. That's it.

"Racism" as a genetic concept is bunk. But that doesn't mean it is informationless and without attribute. To ignore this is naive statistics. It's flawed to say race X is naturally superior to race Y, as if biology somehow influences all this directly. But it's correct to say that race X is typically better than race Y in certain areas due to historical chains stemming from a resource and position issue.

devonin 10-12-2010 11:43 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
And if I'd -said- it was informationless or without attribute then your objection would have been relevent.

All I said was "If there's a reason why -now- an average person from one race tests out in advance of an average person from another, the reason for that is NOT because of their race, but because of the long-term effects of myriad factors that have NOTHING to do with race or genetics."

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:48 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
I'm not objecting to your latter points -- I'm objecting to your initial claim that my conclusion was "reaching" when it isn't. We're in general agreement on everything after that.

The problem I have is with people who try to handwave the problem away as if it'll solve itself by solving things case-by-case. It's completely naive and deleterious. If we approached it this way, we'd be in lines forever as the problems worsened.

jchinzilla 10-12-2010 11:54 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
turning people into statistics and assigning them numerical values isn't going to work

MrRubix 10-12-2010 11:56 AM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by jchinzilla (Post 3309729)
turning people into statistics and assigning them numerical values isn't going to work

says the 13 year old without a clue about how statistics works

Emo_Saur_ 10-12-2010 12:06 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Rubix, in all honesty you talk about how much you've done with your life how smart you are. If so, why argue with kids that are way below the maturity level of you? To me, you're no better than any other idiot that argues you over simple subjects. The question was, "Is it wrong to be racist." The subject was about racism, now if your life decisions are based on number and statistics I'm sorry.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 12:09 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Emo_Saur_ (Post 3309733)
Rubix, in all honesty you talk about how much you've done with your life how smart you are. If so, why argue with kids that are way below the maturity level of you? To me, you're no better than any other idiot that argues you over simple subjects. The question was, "Is it wrong to be racist." The subject was about racism, now if your life decisions are based on number and statistics I'm sorry.

If you'd pay attention, the question "is it wrong to be racist" is not a simple, clear-cut problem. To address the question fully, you have to delve into this stuff.

BTW you base plenty of decisions in your life on generalizations and statistics whether you're aware of it or not. It's how our brains even work to begin with.

The problem isn't about how "we should just be nice to everyone" -- that doesn't solve the root of the issue. Racism isn't only limited to how we treat our friends and how we interact with people at a bar. The implications run deep, and only through a proper knowledge of psychology, history, statistics, and finance will the problem ever come close to being properly solved.

Iam90 10-12-2010 01:49 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
you can get away with ad hominem and a semblance of ethos when arguing with retards rubix but you can't just get away with "i've read more books than u!" "i'm smarter than u!" "u don't understand anything u mean!!" right now

Quote:

Nobody disagrees about what we mean by racism. Racism is the belief that one race is superior/inferior to another, at the most basic level of definition (genetics aside). It's definitely "wrong" to be racist in this way (because, not only is it "morally wrong" as a result of being offensive, where morality is a construct of social optima, but it's "statistically wrong" to judge the value of a set of variables before they are observed. It's also biologically false). The question arises when we look at distributions, where the trends DO emerge. It is wrong, statistically, to deny that these trends exist. Whenever we meet someone new, it's always a good idea to keep an open mind and not judge by race, to be sure.
here's where you're and you're being obtuse, probably intentionally. yes, people disagree over the term racism, precisely because you're refusing to look at the term from a laymen perspective.

i don't think anyone here except you, including the creator of the topic, wanted to talk about how to examine statistical trends and how to act on those trends - they are talking about exactly this: "Racism is the belief that one race is superior/inferior to another, at the most basic level of definition (genetics aside)." and not the proceeding.

It's fine if you want to go off on a tangent about statistical distribution, but don't act like an angry frothing idiot when we agree that resource distribution poises races uniquely over another in hierarchy, but disagree that it connects to the idea of this thread; that is, is the idea of racism that you just agreed is what we hold as racism justifiable.

Diamond's and your argument justify only what they intend to justify, the racial hierarchies and trends in place as a result of certain distributions; NOT the sort of definitional racism that this thread is about.

Not expecting you to get your head out of your ass because you're ****ing rubix but who knows

MrRubix 10-12-2010 02:05 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Ungh. Why is the average FFR user so stupid? How do you get through the day?

"Laymen" racism stems from the underlying concepts I refer to to begin with.

Dear lord. You can't solve racism from a "layman perspective." It just doesn't work. The roots of racism don't lie there. You have to approach it at a much more core level.

devonin 10-12-2010 02:09 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
So in order to stop idiots from being racists, the one thing we -can't- do is actually address the definition and consequences of the racism that they're actually putting into practice?

Instead we need to try and tackle things well above their heads, and try to communicate to a yokel who wants to drag a black guy behind his truck that the only reason he has for feeling like he's better than the other guy is that thousands of years ago, the migrating peoples who would eventually become caucasians happened to end up in an area of the world uniquely designed to force them to develop faster technologically?

MrRubix 10-12-2010 02:21 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Devonin: Head. Out of ass. Now.

That is *clearly* *not* what I am arguing, and that's a very intellectually dishonest thing to invoke. The only way to address the views of the yokel who wants to drag the black guy behind his truck is to properly target those black families who have been hindered as a result of the disadvantageous initial conditions (i.e. those in our current society without much opportunity). You solve it on macro levels: Education reform, improving communities, improving security -- and doing it all in such a way that minimizes backlash (improve it for everyone and you get a scaling effect) and lasts long enough to phase out the stereotypes upon which racism stems by bringing cross-racial properties to a more comparable level/basis. Even on a macro level, it's very difficult.

The problem right now, for instance, is that AA doesn't work. Most whites think it benefits blacks, but really, whites benefit more often (namely white females).

The only way to eliminate the perception of obvious differences is to remove the differences. You will never solve the problem of racism by just telling everyone to get along. That's a mind-numbingly surface-level approach. It may work on certain individual cases among interpersonal relationships, but it doesn't address the roots of racism that continue to perpetuate and provide advantages to one group of races over another on a larger scale.

Black slavery, for instance, was catastrophic. So many white kids nowadays don't want to believe that they didn't work hard for the privileges they now enjoy. Somehow "people should just get over slavery because it happened so long ago" -- the standard excuse. Unfortunately, such things have profound ripple effects. There's a very fundamental disadvantage to being born of a certain race, and you won't solve it by just handwaving things aside. You have to face the statistical determinisms and historical causalities for what they are and figure out the best way to address them at minimal cost.

It's not "cold." It's not "detached." It's not "turning people into numbers." It's actually figuring out what causes and perpetuates racism and how you can best go about solving the problem. If we all attacked the problem the way people in this thread as suggested, we'd never get anywhere because the major problems that fuel racial difference perceptions would not be addressed -- those differences are not small enough to override everything else.

It's not feasible to promote color-indifference. You can't just tell people to disregard skin color and accept people for who they are, statistical trends aside. People may go around saying they treat everyone equally, but they empirically do not (I don't even need to begin to hammer you over the head with the countless studies for this). Trying to fix racism with this type of promotion is like trying to kill weeds by mowing over the top of them from time to time. They'll always come back until you dig deep enough to actually attack the underlying causes and drivers.

Izzy 10-12-2010 03:03 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Is it wrong to hate someone based on their values, beliefs, morals, and/or appearance?

You can not like them sure, but I still think it wrong to hate someone to such a degree just on the basis of them being different.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 03:05 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
depends

ComSec 10-12-2010 04:17 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Is it wrong to make decisions based on correlations?

Iam90 10-12-2010 04:57 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3309835)
Devonin: Head. Out of ass. Now.

That is *clearly* *not* what I am arguing, and that's a very intellectually dishonest thing to invoke. The only way to address the views of the yokel who wants to drag the black guy behind his truck is to properly target those black families who have been hindered as a result of the disadvantageous initial conditions (i.e. those in our current society without much opportunity). You solve it on macro levels: Education reform, improving communities, improving security -- and doing it all in such a way that minimizes backlash (improve it for everyone and you get a scaling effect) and lasts long enough to phase out the stereotypes upon which racism stems by bringing cross-racial properties to a more comparable level/basis. Even on a macro level, it's very difficult.

The problem right now, for instance, is that AA doesn't work. Most whites think it benefits blacks, but really, whites benefit more often (namely white females).

The only way to eliminate the perception of obvious differences is to remove the differences. You will never solve the problem of racism by just telling everyone to get along. That's a mind-numbingly surface-level approach. It may work on certain individual cases among interpersonal relationships, but it doesn't address the roots of racism that continue to perpetuate and provide advantages to one group of races over another on a larger scale.

Black slavery, for instance, was catastrophic. So many white kids nowadays don't want to believe that they didn't work hard for the privileges they now enjoy. Somehow "people should just get over slavery because it happened so long ago" -- the standard excuse. Unfortunately, such things have profound ripple effects. There's a very fundamental disadvantage to being born of a certain race, and you won't solve it by just handwaving things aside. You have to face the statistical determinisms and historical causalities for what they are and figure out the best way to address them at minimal cost.

It's not "cold." It's not "detached." It's not "turning people into numbers." It's actually figuring out what causes and perpetuates racism and how you can best go about solving the problem. If we all attacked the problem the way people in this thread as suggested, we'd never get anywhere because the major problems that fuel racial difference perceptions would not be addressed -- those differences are not small enough to override everything else.

It's not feasible to promote color-indifference. You can't just tell people to disregard skin color and accept people for who they are, statistical trends aside. People may go around saying they treat everyone equally, but they empirically do not (I don't even need to begin to hammer you over the head with the countless studies for this). Trying to fix racism with this type of promotion is like trying to kill weeds by mowing over the top of them from time to time. They'll always come back until you dig deep enough to actually attack the underlying causes and drivers.

no one is questioning the efficacy of instituting macro-level mechanism (like education reform, etc) in ameliorating the situation. that's not what the topic was about and not what anyone was addressing (aside from you); the question was "is being racist wrong?"

which it is, given what racism means in the context of the topic. you're creating strawmen because no one is arguing against the point you're trying to make; you injected it into this topic.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 05:56 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
No, because the answer "is racism wrong" is not an easy question. Everyone's "obvious" response is "yes." This is not what happens in practice, and it's not as utopian as saying "everyone should get along." It's a perpetuation of the same, tired old issues.

If we all say "Yes, racism is bad," this is an obvious, meaningless social truth to most. The problem is that few act in line with their own opinion -- and then the real question becomes "So, why not?"

The obvious answer is that we run into someone of a different race and try to treat him/her as an equal. This is the "right" way to handle it. But it's almost never what the data supports. It's a meaningless question that people like to bat around and then drop. If you want to talk about something that matters in the subject, you have to look a little more deeply into what it means for racism to be "wrong" or "right" and why (and, as a result, you have to look into the implications of that reasoning) -- which, SURPRISE SURPRISE, leads to the points I am making.

Izzy 10-12-2010 06:19 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
I don't see any reason to analyze the question further then the obvious answer. There is no practical reason to accept racism as being ok. Even if it is inevitable I think people should always be working towards being tolerant.

Patashu 10-12-2010 06:30 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
If the 'obvious' answer is yes, why are there so many racists?

MrRubix 10-12-2010 06:35 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patashu (Post 3310037)
If the 'obvious' answer is yes, why are there so many racists?

This is my point.

This question is often a massively useless hypocrisy because most people are racists.

Izzy 10-12-2010 06:55 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Patashu (Post 3310037)
If the 'obvious' answer is yes, why are there so many racists?

Because the ones that are extreme racist don't think it is wrong and everyone else just has subtle racist tendencies that they don't know about. It's probably just human nature to hate things you don't understand. That doesn't mean it is "right" though.

ComSec 10-12-2010 06:57 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
everybody acts based on correlations. thats how our brains work

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 07:56 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3310002)
No, because the answer "is racism wrong" is not an easy question. Everyone's "obvious" response is "yes." This is not what happens in practice, and it's not as utopian as saying "everyone should get along." It's a perpetuation of the same, tired old issues.

If we all say "Yes, racism is bad," this is an obvious, meaningless social truth to most. The problem is that few act in line with their own opinion -- and then the real question becomes "So, why not?"

The obvious answer is that we run into someone of a different race and try to treat him/her as an equal. This is the "right" way to handle it. But it's almost never what the data supports. It's a meaningless question that people like to bat around and then drop. If you want to talk about something that matters in the subject, you have to look a little more deeply into what it means for racism to be "wrong" or "right" and why (and, as a result, you have to look into the implications of that reasoning) -- which, SURPRISE SURPRISE, leads to the points I am making.

Okay talking about latent Other-izing of people rather than active conscious decisions to be racist is once again tangential. You keep trying to change the topic so that you can make an arcane pretentious point.

Yes it's a knee-jerk reaction when you're meeting someone very different from what you're used to to not immediately know how to respond but seriously if any person just tries to proceed by accepting that person as a unique individual rather than as a part of some distinct group with homogeneous characteristics I guarantee you that you will fair better than trying to use an aggregate of statistics because honestly the amount of information you would need to know to make the latter strategy remotely effective is probably an entire university library.

Also you've made a lot of implications this is useful but I haven't seen you give one real way to use anything you talk about.

Keep playing mental gymnastics you will impress some people and I guess that's what you're going for.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 07:58 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Also you've talked a lot about how I (and others) have our heads up our asses but I've read what you have to say and I cannot in any way find it meaningful or relevant to my life where I interact with probably over a hundred people of a race other than mine a day.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 08:00 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Racism is sometimes correct. Also so is Marxism. And liberals are sometimes correct. But so are conservatives.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 08:05 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
incorrect

btw lmfao it isn't arcane. do you even know what the word means? actually defend your statements rather than making hollow statements. give me one example of something i've said that's arcane in scope.

"where I interact with probably over a hundred people of a race other than mine a day."
--Didn't I tell you earlier to learn Bayes Rule? Go learn it.

"but seriously if any person just tries to proceed by accepting that person as a unique individual rather than as a part of some distinct group with homogeneous characteristics I guarantee you that you will fair better than trying to use an aggregate of statistics because honestly the amount of information you would need to know to make the latter strategy remotely effective is probably an entire university library."
--And this is exactly the cliche, naive conclusion most people try to make in a utopian fashion. world doesn't work that way, sport. you're also misinterpreting the argument. the idea isn't to "approach people you meet on a day to day basis with statistics in mind for decision making." if that's what you've seriously drawn from my arguments, then you really *are* thick.

the point of the statistical explanation i gave earlier was to explain that racial differences, even if not biological, exist. Even on a case-by-case basis given sufficient randomization, you're going to experience the same thing. Racism won't go away because you snap your fingers and hope everyone gets along. It won't go away because you tell people it's "wrong" -- even if people agree with it. People are racist and are inherently so because of inevitable and unavoidable generalizations which are, at the core, true.


Seriously, give me ONE response that shows me you have some shred of intelligence. Feel free to even construct a sample scenario, or pick one specific point I've made. You don't even have to address everything. Just prove to me you're worth continuing this discussion with.

MrRubix 10-12-2010 08:15 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Vendetta21 (Post 3310103)
Racism is sometimes correct. Also so is Marxism. And liberals are sometimes correct. But so are conservatives.

And yet the frequencies to which these things are sometimes are correct are very different.

Vendetta21 10-12-2010 08:16 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3310108)
the point of the statistical explanation i gave earlier was to explain that racial differences, even if not biological, exist. Even on a case-by-case basis given sufficient randomization, you're going to experience the same thing. Racism won't go away because you snap your fingers and hope everyone gets along. It won't go away because you tell people it's "wrong" -- even if people agree with it. People are racist and are inherently so because of inevitable and unavoidable generalizations which are, at the core, true.

Dude no one is disagreeing with this we're saying it's irrelevant. Okay so about thirty asians come into my work throughout the day tell me some information I can use to help me interact with them and understand them.


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