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Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
Patashu wrote "If every black person in the US suddenly lost all the traits that everyone used to differentiate races but we somehow tracked them over the generations, they'd rise up from being an underclass"
I strongly disagree, for reasons others have mentioned. It is not race which has made black people poor, nor is it racism. It is a stratified social structure. Blacks were not made slaves in North America because they were black, it was because their people were in no position to stop themselves from being caught by fleets of white men. In the same way, it is not only the fact that they are black which keeps poor black people poor. All we'd have to do prove that what you say won't happen would be to follow a large number of poor white families for a few generations to see if they are likely to become unpoor, something which we CAN do now, and which probably has been done. Our society does not do well with making people 'equal'. On another note, I agree with Fido. It is not being naive, it is the recognition that labelling an individual based on statistics or first glance suppositions, is just not right. Obviously it is alright to talk about people in groups and to generalize...we sort of have to. It is, however, not alright to think of any given individual in those terms. For instance, it is not ok to, after seeing a black teenager wearing baggy clothes, think 'oh, he might be part of a gang, I should stay away from him, and I'm totally justified in thinking that because I'm just looking out for my safety and following statistics which say black teenage guys in baggy clothes are much more likely to be a gang member.' A much better thought process, imo, would be 'oh, he's wearing baggy clothes and he's black, he might be part of a gang, but that would be pretty slanderous and offensive of me to think that right away...I don't want people summing ME up in a glance.' Unless you want people to sum you up in a glance I suppose...in which case, if you'd like to be thought of as your stereotype, I guess my point is irrelevant. edit: I guess I shouldn't think negatively of all gangs though should I... |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
Iam90: No, incorrect. Where do you think the bigotry comes from in the first place? It is certainly muddled by ignorance, religion, misguided scientific facts, politics, and so forth -- but that's just a sort of classic group-effect. The racism itself is ground in kernels of truth and perpetuated by other Darwinian means (namely the environment, distribution of resources, and other biological impulses built into survival traits).
"It's not that certain factors such as geography and resource distribution don't advantage certain races over another; Jared Diamond covers that amply. It's that most racists view a race as inherently advantaged over others through the very fiber of their being, and then make the further value judgment that such a race is somehow less valuable/less human for being disadvantaged. " You are retarded, btw. Go look into "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Diamond. He argues the exact opposite of what you're saying. |
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I think you don't understand Diamond's argument. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
Cavernio: Also incorrect. Again, just because something might be "offensive" doesn't make it less/more true or likely. We, as humans, find racism offensive because we typically don't like being typecasted as somehow being equivalent with our averages within our distribution. The problem comes in how we try to close these divisions between races, which do exist. One thing is for certain: You cannot get rid of racism by simply pretending it does not exist. The best you can do is try to subsidize the weaknesses in one group to give them a chance to catch up to the rest of society until certain "negative" idiosyncrasies start to fade out. This is, of course, incredibly difficult to do once certain trends have taken hold.
Examining quotes from Fido: "The only thing the ethnicity of a person effects is how somebody looks" -While true, that is not the only thing we can know about someone. People who evolved into one race other the other grew up in a different environment, and people from different environments have, over time, on average, acquired different cultural, social, intellectual, financial, religious, and political values. "Why can't we judge people based on the character of a person instead of where they were from originally? Obviously there's more to it than that but at it's core, that's all racism is." -Absolutely -- but this case is muddled. The "random distributions" become skewed because, say, if you only focus on people of different races within your like-environment, you're naturally going to find a greater degree of homogeneity. However, this is not true if we delve into random sampling. It's always a good idea to get to know someone before putting them in a certain category -- just as silly as it would be for me to say that "Because all fishes of species X are generally tastier than fishes Y, I will assume that all X fish are tastier than Y fish." There's obviously going to be overlap even if the statistical/empirical averages hold up to be true via Law of Large Numbers. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
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That's not what Diamond argues at all. His entire argument is surrounded about the concept of resource distribution and effects of geography. Hence, how one society gets access to GUNS, GERMS, AND STEEL over another and how this eventually leads to perceived racial superiorities. You people need to just hang yourselves for stupidity. |
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You're making some weird argument justifying some arcane definition of racism and it seems like you aren't getting much disagreement about the fact that culture, geography, and environment make a difference but it trying to defend that as some sort of racism is kinda dumb IMO and it comes across like the people who point out the flaws in global climate change theories and then the subsequent effect is people think global climate change is bunk. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
How about you read the book first before you act as if you know what you're talking about.
You're putting up strawmen arguments. The point here isn't to "justify" racism -- nobody here is doing that. It's to say that racism has its grounds in the environment -- there are statistical truths to racism. The fact that it is offensive does not make it any less true. We're all in general agreement that it's generally a bad idea to typecast a particular person before we get to know them. But it's also an unavoidable fact that, on average, people on certain races will fit certain trends. The question is what we plan to do about that on a micro and macro scale. |
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The book is an irrelevant tangent to the basic point. You're acting like the guy who read one book that blew his mind and then wanted to start arguing based on it via Atlas Shrugged except in this case you've picked a good book. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
I'm not sure if I shoud call myself a racist or not. I don't hate people because of their race, but behavior/culture/attitude.
For example: I don't honestly like peope from eastern europe, countrie like poland, latvia, russia etc because lots of them come to my country as bandits stealing the **** out us then they steal a truck or something and transport all the stolen goods to their home country and sells it for major profit. I honestly never have had the chance of knowing a single person from those countries that behave what is by our standards acceptable. I used to live in a dorm with 3 rooms, and when I moved in there was a swedish girl, and a swedish-turkish guy living there. but ehen that girl moved out a latvian moved in, partying all night, stealing all the bandwidth on the internet. When he moved out a new latvian guy moved in, he was having his friends sleep there and use up all the hot water in the shower including stealing my shampoo. Even use the washing machine all the time, he even threw my wet laundry on the floor when he needed to use the machine. I don't know if this is racism or not though. Another example: When I lived with my dad there was this house close by, always foreigners moved in there. One day I was on my way to a soccer training about 10 years ago, suddenly 2 black dudes alot older than me started beating me up like only a minute after I left my house for NO REASON AT ALL. And their younger sister stole my bike... Do I hate black people for that? No. Do I always assume that people from that country find it hard to fit into our society and follow our rules when they come to this country ? Yes. Hope I'm not offending anyone with this. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
I've also read The 10,000 Year Explosion which is the argument you're making on steroids still tangential.
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Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
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Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
"You're making some weird argument justifying some arcane definition of racism" <-- strawman argument. I'm not justifying an arcane form of racism. I am defining what has, at its roots, caused racism -- as well as the underlying truths and issues.
Nobody disagrees about what we mean by racism. Racism is the belief that one race is superior/inferior to another, at the most basic level of definition (genetics aside). It's definitely "wrong" to be racist in this way (because, not only is it "morally wrong" as a result of being offensive, where morality is a construct of social optima, but it's "statistically wrong" to judge the value of a set of variables before they are observed. It's also biologically false). The question arises when we look at distributions, where the trends DO emerge. It is wrong, statistically, to deny that these trends exist. Whenever we meet someone new, it's always a good idea to keep an open mind and not judge by race, to be sure. The question is when it becomes "wrong" to take these trends into account, and when it becomes more "equitable," on the flipside, to take the trends into account in decisionmaking. "The book is an irrelevant tangent to the basic point. You're acting like the guy who read one book that blew his mind and then wanted to start arguing based on it via Atlas Shrugged except in this case you've picked a good book." No, I'm speaking as the guy who's probably read every book you've ever read in your entire life, multiplied ten times over. "Atlas Shrugged" being a ****ty book is probably the only reasonable thing you've said in this thread. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
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You should go into Macro Econ you seem to have just the attitude that they NEED right now. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
"You should go into Macro Econ you seem to have just the attitude that they NEED right now."
Hahahahahahahahhahahahahhahahahahahaha |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
Also ****in' LOL you think you've read all the books I have times ten. I'm an ADHD dumbass but I'm pretty sure that's not even ****ing close to the truth.
You must have a God complex from arguing with lethargic retards on Rhythm forums all the time where you inundate them with inane details and big words in spergtastic tangents. |
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Do you understand statistics, like, at all? |
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Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
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I'm not going to go into a bar and think about all the statistics I know about the qualities of everyone in the room but that's mainly because I'm not an elitist sociopath. But I see that you're an armchair policy-maker so the only considerations for you are macro considerations so carry on. |
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If you ignore macro trends then you have a very poor handling of statistics. |
Re: Is it wrong to be racist?
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