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perfectchaoslemon 12-18-2009 12:27 AM

What happens after we die.
 
Now I maybe Catholic, but I am not at all trying to impose my beliefs on you, even though I get enough people trying to put down my beliefs. I honestly want to know what you all think about what happens after you die. Do you honestly believe that nothing happens? Can you picture nothing? Some say it's a permanent loss of consciousness, but even in unconsciousness, eventually your mind becomes aware that you are unconscious. It is difficult to explain, but it still persists an image of some sort. May it be blackness or even a dream. I'm not necessarily saying that heaven and hell are what comes afterward, but there has to be at least something there.

My belief is that of a man named David Icke. Now I must admit some of his ideologies are somewhat absurd, i.e. the more famous people have hidden faces when in private, but he has a very interesting theory on afterlife. He mentions that currently we are on one thought level, and after that thought level, we move to a higher thought level, but in which could most likely be related to, per say, a fourth dimension, that may be possible. Although it it not exactly a 4-dimensional world, it is as complicated to explain as one. One could assume we are changed into a completely different being, as our physical bodies do not matter. Icke has told that all living things have a different thought level, but still end up on the same path as all other living beings once they are here.

Now I realize there is much more to this than it seems, as I feel I have been restating myself, but in short, there is at least something. It doesn't make much sense to experience nothingness after death, in my opinion. If one cannot picture nothing, then there is no such thing as nothing. I mostly speak this towards the atheists out there saying "you just rot in the ground". Yeah, I bet you say that when a close relative of your dies. "he/she'll just rot in the ground."

Anyways I'm interested in hearing your guys's opinions on what you think happens after we die. Whether ir be a different thought pattern, a different world, or even heaven. Describe what you guys believe makes the most sense to you after your life has ended.

StRiKeR75th 12-18-2009 12:30 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
A very long dream, or just black and nothingness. You just cease to be.

This thread should get interesting.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 12:33 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
See the metaphysics thread.

Odds are, once our brain ceases to function, so does out perspective and sentience. Therefore you basically wind up in the same state of existence that you were in before you were born. That is to say, nothing.

Ghakimx 12-18-2009 12:54 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Hmm well to me, I always wondered who created the concept of heaven and hell. I grew up as a Muslim but recently I've been thinking if some concepts of religion aren't really true, like the afterlife thing.

To start off, is there really a place of Xanadu after you are dead? And is there really a place of eternal suffering? Maybe, or maybe not. To be honest, animals never thought of this. As soon as their dead, that's it. The thoughts of such places are comforting and discomforting, but oh well. I've also tried to ask dead people about it but I haven't got a reply from of them.

korny 12-18-2009 12:54 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I'm pretty sure all these things decay after they die.

Izzy 12-18-2009 01:21 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3303934)
See the metaphysics thread.

Odds are, once our brain ceases to function, so does out perspective and sentience. Therefore you basically wind up in the same state of existence that you were in before you were born. That is to say, nothing.

+1 for this stance. It seems to make the most logical sense. Since there is no evidence for the idea of a soul and there is evidence that our brain is the receiver/observer and the control center of everything we see, hear, taste, remember or whatever.

No brain, therefore nothing.

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 02:37 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
after we die, our atoms will be back in the natural cycle, and that's good enough for me.

if only they used corpses to feed the soil instead of putting them into coffins....

Izzy 12-18-2009 02:59 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
They do that in a some cemeteries. All natural graves. I think for the burial they put you in a biodegradable coffin.

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 03:08 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
well i was more like on dismembering the corpses and use them as fertilizers. people hold on too much on life, till the point they actually try to keep metaphorically alive even those who died.

Izzy 12-18-2009 03:11 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Well, once the coffin degrades then your body will eventually turn into fertilizer for the grass and bushes there.

Flaming_Dingleberry 12-18-2009 03:19 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectchaoslemon (Post 3303930)
Now I maybe Catholic, but I am not at all trying to impose my beliefs on you, even though I get enough people trying to put down my beliefs. I honestly want to know what you all think about what happens after you die. Do you honestly believe that nothing happens? Can you picture nothing? Some say it's a permanent loss of consciousness, but even in unconsciousness, eventually your mind becomes aware that you are unconscious. It is difficult to explain, but it still persists an image of some sort. May it be blackness or even a dream. I'm not necessarily saying that heaven and hell are what comes afterward, but there has to be at least something there.

My belief is that of a man named David Icke. Now I must admit some of his ideologies are somewhat absurd, i.e. the more famous people have hidden faces when in private, but he has a very interesting theory on afterlife. He mentions that currently we are on one thought level, and after that thought level, we move to a higher thought level, but in which could most likely be related to, per say, a fourth dimension, that may be possible. Although it it not exactly a 4-dimensional world, it is as complicated to explain as one. One could assume we are changed into a completely different being, as our physical bodies do not matter. Icke has told that all living things have a different thought level, but still end up on the same path as all other living beings once they are here.

Now I realize there is much more to this than it seems, as I feel I have been restating myself, but in short, there is at least something. It doesn't make much sense to experience nothingness after death, in my opinion. If one cannot picture nothing, then there is no such thing as nothing. I mostly speak this towards the atheists out there saying "you just rot in the ground". Yeah, I bet you say that when a close relative of your dies. "he/she'll just rot in the ground."

Anyways I'm interested in hearing your guys's opinions on what you think happens after we die. Whether ir be a different thought pattern, a different world, or even heaven. Describe what you guys believe makes the most sense to you after your life has ended.

Imagine what it was like for the first 14,000,000,000 years of life... remember? The universe existed then, and you didn't, just like when you die! It'll be like that.

No one knows what'll happen, but if religion is a bunch of bullcrap, it's easy to comprehend what death will be like.

EDIT: ninja'd by Rubix, cockdamn it.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 03:27 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
It's sick to think that the components of our body have existed for billions of years. We've been through a lot :P

Such a long wait for the gift of life, eh?

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 03:34 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectchaoslemon (Post 3303930)
I bet you say that when a close relative of your dies. "he/she'll just rot in the ground."

It happened to one of my cousins. He died like we was supposed to, before of after. No need to be a whiny pussy about what you cannot change.

Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectchaoslemon (Post 3303930)
It doesn't make much sense to experience nothingness after death, in my opinion. If one cannot picture nothing, then there is no such thing as nothing.

So if you cannot picture something just because is doesn't fall into the range of your perception/abstraction, it doesn't exist? I'm dying to hear what is your mental perception of UV rays. Or a black hole. Or any other thing we do not have a direct experience of yet. I'd also be happy to listen how do you conceive god, since you guys always say it's unconceivable. By your thought pattern, it also doesn't exist.

Izzy 12-18-2009 03:37 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
People like to make up happy stories of what happens to them when they die because they are to afraid to accept the awful reality.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 03:50 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
It doesn't make sense to think about what it's like to "perceive" nothing. To us, as observers, our time started the moment we were born. We had no awareness of ANYTHING before we were sentient. Likewise, things after we die will be the same. Without our physical faculties, we won't be perceiving.

The concept of an afterlife is "soothing" to most because we don't want death to be so "final," but the truth is we won't know until we get there. Evidence would suggest that we simply stop perceiving, much like how we weren't perceiving before we were born.

The way I try to "envision" death, though: It's like when you're reading a book and fall asleep. You wake up and go, "Oh snap, I fell asleep?! Don't even remember doing that." As you fall asleep, your eyes stop observing, sounds start to phase out into nothingness, your sense of touch is somewhat detached. Consider what it's like in dreams -- you don't walk around feeling like you're lying in a bed. Your senses take a back seat to your subconscious.

Only sometimes, at least for me, I fall asleep and just wake up hours later with no dream occurrences. If you were to ask me what I was perceiving during such a rest, I wouldn't be able to tell you. I think death will "feel" a lot like that, only it's not something you wake up from. It's like going in for surgery. You find yourself just waking up at some point and everything's over. You don't even remember falling asleep -- it just "happened." When death finally hits us, at the very least, we won't be able to care anymore.

N.T.M. 12-18-2009 04:20 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus (Post 3303975)
after we die, our atoms will be back in the natural cycle, and that's good enough for me.

if only they used corpses to feed the soil instead of putting them into coffins....

You could essentially be reincarnated as a sunflower.


Tell me that wouldn't be awesome!!

ledwix 12-18-2009 05:01 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3303934)
See the metaphysics thread.

Odds are, once our brain ceases to function, so does out perspective and sentience. Therefore you basically wind up in the same state of existence that you were in before you were born. That is to say, nothing.

To the physiologically concerned side of me, this is very reassuring. When I think of death, it's a very sad vision. The thought of having 60 or so years left to perceive everything in the world that I will ever perceive is kinda sad, especially when the world is so idealistically minded to us when we are young (i.e. you can do ANYTHING if you put your mind to it !!!1!11). But when I think about it some more, the 1980s weren't all that bad for me! I just simply have no record of them or any of the other years before 1990.

It's strange to think about how the world is a big continuous flux of people in and out, with no discrete changes. There are almost no massive events that change life for everyone, just a lot of smooth, rounded trends toward a "better" or "worse" world.

My overall reasoning though is that our physical bodies don't really matter by any metrics. From a humanistic, naturalistic perspective, there will absolutely no meaningful physical record of our existence in the next eons, barring fossilization and crap. And there will be no record of our accomplishments, either. From a spiritual perspective, if the spiritual realm is real and meaningful in any way, then the body still does not matter; only one's spiritual commitment matters. And so if there is anything grand to live for, it cannot be based in one's physical relations with the world. Our worldly desires are just that: worldly desires, and nothing more.

N.T.M. 12-18-2009 05:06 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ledwix (Post 3304013)
The thought of having 60 or so years left to perceive everything in the world that I will ever perceive is kinda sad.

Look up Aubrey de Grey, Cynthia Kenyon, and Rob Freitas.

I've been researching them for a while.

Feel better with such prospects?

MrRubix 12-18-2009 05:19 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
ledwix: I agree -- in the future, we'll basically be gone. As time goes on, our influence starts to slowly null out in the same way out forefathers have basically vanished into the history of everything.

And so I've always wondered, what actually matters? I think "purpose" is only a human construct -- it is subjective, and therefore human in origin. Was there any purpose to the universe back when there was no life, no experience? Finding "meaning" in things is purely a result of an evolutionary construct. And so, to me, what "matters" is that I live a happy life, since emotion is what gives our sentience that extra boost. We're able to perceive utility.

It's just amazing to me that we basically have this eternally long, perspectiveless existence... and then for the tiniest of blips in time, we burst out from under the surface and experience a plethora of amazing things before falling back under into the same void from whence we came. It really makes everything feel so temporary for me. Everyone we meet is just another passerby that we happen to encounter during our brief little blip. There's just something bittersweet about it.

My response to it all is simply to seek happiness. I fear death only to the extent that it puts a time limit on my ability to perceive utility. The end result of that, though, is a heightened appreciation for simple things. Most of my favorite memories/moments of nostalgia revolve around simple things. I want my whole life to be like that. It'll come to an end, but at least I've made the most out of what I can, and that's what matters to me.

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 07:27 AM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Yeah, life is only a parenthesis. Actually, the concept of life itself is only an arbitrary deadline we created to divide what we perceived similar to us from what we perceived different from us. Another human concept that does not really make much sense when translated in absolute terms. If you look at universe it from another point of view, everything goes into the same cycle. "Life" is just a very complex assemblement of concurring phisical reactions that enter into a variety of concentric, more complex cycles. As rubix said, "purpose" or "meaning" are only relative concepts that we created during our evolution.

Going by this, i guess that the infinitely tiny moment of existance we call life can be anything, in the end it won't matter. That's why many people hold on to various irrational beliefs to find some answer to a question that doesn't have any answer, since it was a meaningless question to begin with.

Even though in the long run everything we humans do will just disappear, i guess it's okay to try and improve the way ourselves and the ones around experience this transition, because we are constituted in such a way that negative events, emotions and situations will hurt us, making our and other entities' experience worse.

perfectchaoslemon 12-18-2009 12:42 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mollocephalus (Post 3303997)
It happened to one of my cousins. He died like we was supposed to, before of after. No need to be a whiny pussy about what you cannot change.



So if you cannot picture something just because is doesn't fall into the range of your perception/abstraction, it doesn't exist? I'm dying to hear what is your mental perception of UV rays. Or a black hole. Or any other thing we do not have a direct experience of yet. I'd also be happy to listen how do you conceive god, since you guys always say it's unconceivable. By your thought pattern, it also doesn't exist.

1. So in other words you weren't close to him at all.

2. UV rays and black holes have been proven. God is a divine power that persists above us and we as humans can get a general idea of his presence. Nothingness, however, just seems to me like an incomprehensible idea. I mean can you seriously picture nothingness? It's not complete blackness because that blackness IS a something.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 12:52 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
1. You can be close to someone/care for someone and respect their memories without needing to assume they still exist in some sort of spiritual format. If you're going to approach it like "Dead people just rot in the ground," that's your own take. Even though dead people do rot, that's not what we need to really care about.

2. I won't get into God in this thread, but you're right that nothingness isn't "blackness." Nothingness is nothing. It's what life was like for you before you were born -- nothing.

25thhour 12-18-2009 12:56 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
My father died when I was 6. Sure it was a sad sad time. I really believe that when you die you just become a ghost or you go into the ground. Sometimes I can feel his presence in a room and I just get shivers.

Mousethecat 12-18-2009 01:01 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3304020)
My response to it all is simply to seek happiness.

Nothing anyone says could be more meaningful than this statement. If there's any one indisputable fact of life, it's that Happiness > Unhappiness.


Death is the end of life. There's always nothing after the end, for if there was, it wouldn't be an end. Concentrating on death is just a complete waste of time. Unless you're trying to avoid death, in that case you're doing the exact opposite. You're giving yourself more time.

The only thing that will persist of you after you are dead, is the changes you cause that affect the future.

- Having a child. Making sure you pass your wisdom on to them, and they pass it to theirs.
- Making a scientific breakthrough. I don't need to list examples of people who have made a huge impact on what we know today, and may not know without them having done the work they did.
- Saving someones life.

Every small thing is a brick to building a better future. Having the most bricks should be the goal of anyone who wants their life to have meaning.

The future will remember and thank you.

perfectchaoslemon 12-18-2009 01:09 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3304173)
1. You can be close to someone/care for someone and respect their memories without needing to assume they still exist in some sort of spiritual format. If you're going to approach it like "Dead people just rot in the ground," that's your own take. Even though dead people do rot, that's not what we need to really care about.

2. I won't get into God in this thread, but you're right that nothingness isn't "blackness." Nothingness is nothing. It's what life was like for you before you were born -- nothing.

Well the fact of the matter is, you don't know what that was like. Back then, that nothingness was temporary until you were born and conceived, and I'm pretty sure nobody knew about this nothingness while they were in the state. It's like unconsciousness, it feels like it happened in one millisecond. After you die, will it be the same thing? Won't you eventually be aware of the nothingness? Or will it keep spanning every thousand years per millisecond without an end?

MrRubix 12-18-2009 01:17 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectchaoslemon (Post 3304184)
Well the fact of the matter is, you don't know what that was like. Back then, that nothingness was temporary until you were born and conceived, and I'm pretty sure nobody knew about this nothingness while they were in the state. It's like unconsciousness, it feels like it happened in one millisecond. After you die, will it be the same thing? Won't you eventually be aware of the nothingness? Or will it keep spanning every thousand years per millisecond without an end?

Why would you ever be aware of nothingness? It's NOTHING for a reason. If you're dead, you're no longer perceiving. Your eyes, ears, nose, nerves, etc will no longer work, and neither will your conscious, self-conscious, or any other form of sentience/perception/identity/inner monologue/etc. All of these things reside in the brain, and when the brain stops working, so do all those functions.

We know what nothingness was like because we don't remember experiencing anything before we were born. This would make sense, considering we didn't exist. When we die, we return to that state of non-activity.

Izzy 12-18-2009 01:56 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mousethecat (Post 3304180)
Nothing anyone says could be more meaningful than this statement. If there's any one indisputable fact of life, it's that Happiness > Unhappiness.
.

But at the same time I don't believe happiness is greater then the truth. Just being happy through ignorance of the world is a huge problem because it slows down the progression of humanity by preventing us to find the truth sooner.

If you want to believe something yourself that's fine, but you are just the worst kind of person if you try to force it on your kids or other people.

Plan_Bsk81127 12-18-2009 02:02 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
After you die, it is just like before you were born.

Mousethecat 12-18-2009 02:23 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy (Post 3304197)
But at the same time I don't believe happiness is greater then the truth. Just being happy through ignorance of the world is a huge problem because it slows down the progression of humanity by preventing us to find the truth sooner.

If you want to believe something yourself that's fine, but you are just the worst kind of person if you try to force it on your kids or other people.

I couldn't agree with you more.

Finding happiness in the sad truths is what separates intelligent enthusiasts from the rest of the world. I just couldn't accept someone as intelligent if they couldn't understand and accept what is truth.

spreadNv 12-18-2009 03:21 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I picture being dead just the same as a night's sleep when I couldn't remember any dream. Nothingness that I'm not even aware of.

GG_Guru 12-18-2009 03:49 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
You can't really tell what happens when a person dies because we haven't experienced it ourselves. The closest thing to dying would be falling asleep. One thing I can tell you for sure is that, life is a cycle and when we die our bodies become part of the earth. We will end up decaying and rotting away as time passes until we become reborn again. Now, I don't want to make any assumptions because I know what I speak of is based off pure theory, but wouldn't it interesting if life restarted over again and we were not aware of it? That question strikes undeniable ignorance to science but there are things we still do not know. I don't believe in creating a hypothesis because I myself don't have the power to do so and claim it a fact, but there mere thought of reincarnation is something worth looking into.

perfectchaoslemon 12-18-2009 04:01 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3304187)
Why would you ever be aware of nothingness? It's NOTHING for a reason. If you're dead, you're no longer perceiving. Your eyes, ears, nose, nerves, etc will no longer work, and neither will your conscious, self-conscious, or any other form of sentience/perception/identity/inner monologue/etc. All of these things reside in the brain, and when the brain stops working, so do all those functions.

We know what nothingness was like because we don't remember experiencing anything before we were born. This would make sense, considering we didn't exist. When we die, we return to that state of non-activity.

We don't remember experiencing anything because it happened in an instant. Now you're telling me you know that there's nothing confusing to a permanent loss of consciousness. Explain to me exactly how it's possible to experience nothing for an infinite amount of time. It's not. All you're saying is that it's like before we're born, but that is temporary. There was an end to that nothingness, and there came life. Unconsciousness to the mind is completely skipped over. You can't skip over something that is infinite, so within that there must be some sort of realization.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 04:02 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I know a lot of people have already said this. But death is just like sleep, I mean when you sleep a dreamless-sleep you don't even remember what happened.
Or if you pass out and come back.
Its sad that people have to die... theres no reason for it, I wish I remember what science article it is, but they went into detail about how a body has the capability to regenerate itself forever. I'm really not sure what magazine it was in, but I remember reading about it.

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 04:07 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
reincarnation can indeed happen, but not really in the same way people think, especially if you take soul translation into consideration. the atoms that compose a body will disassemble and eventually enter another life cycle. however, that does not mean that the group of atoms that compose a living being, defining the beginning and end of such living being, will transfer to another one. Even if that could happen, the two living beings would only be sharing the same "blocks".

Flaming_Dingleberry 12-18-2009 04:11 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
LET'S START A NEW THEORY!

Uhh, okay... let's say the nanosecond before you die, you start dreaming. Now you're dead, but one molecule in your brain is still dreaming. Now you continue your life as an atom/molecule/something really small. You'll never wake up, you'll just be floating around, dreaming dreams and such. Sweet, let's make a religion out of this, FFRers unite!

awein999 12-18-2009 04:12 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
A more interesting thought is learning how to live life to the fullest:

A lot of people get too worried about little aspects of life. It's really all just a perspective issue.

example 1: At my stage in life, being a senior in high school, my fellow classmates are scared to death about not getting into a "good" college. What does that mean? One that is respected by society? Probably for most. They worry so much about something that really doesn't matter, you are getting into a college that's for sure, you go to Weston High School wake up, and maybe you might even like a small lesser known college more than an ivy.

example 2: Getting a well respected job after college. People work so hard for that status, but what if you enjoy being a janitor more? Or being a gym teacher? Or a sexologist? You have to ask yourself "what do I want in life? What makes me happy?" The true answer to that is usually different from the current day sociatal expectations.


My stance on death is that the fear is illogical because you can't feel pain when you are dead. The fear of death is just an evolutionary illogical fear. Death is like the ultimate peace. We will likely never accept what death is (or isn't). From consciousness we can speculate, but only that, which is why it is so unsatisfying to a lot of people.

"Matter flows from place to place
And momentarily comes together to be you
Some people find that thought disturbing
I find the reality thrilling" --Dawkins

Izzy 12-18-2009 04:15 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by perfectchaoslemon (Post 3304263)
We don't remember experiencing anything because it happened in an instant. Now you're telling me you know that there's nothing confusing to a permanent loss of consciousness. Explain to me exactly how it's possible to experience nothing for an infinite amount of time. It's not. All you're saying is that it's like before we're born, but that is temporary. There was an end to that nothingness, and there came life. Unconsciousness to the mind is completely skipped over. You can't skip over something that is infinite, so within that there must be some sort of realization.

Why are you having so much trouble with this... Of course you can't skip over something that's infinite because that is the point. You don't skip over it, it just keeps going. You are infinity non existent after that point because you have no more brain to observe.

I'll repeat it. There is nothing confusing about a permanent loss of consciousness.

Experiencing nothing for infinity isn't any more complicated then nothing for 1 year or 10 years. It just keeps going. It's not so much experiencing nothing because really you wouldn't be experiencing at all. It's just straight up nothing forever. You will be nothing forever when you die. Assuming you is "you" as a whole. Your atoms will probably be distributed among other things.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 04:18 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by awein999 (Post 3304277)
"Matter flows from place to place
And momentarily comes together to be you
Some people find that thought disturbing
I find the reality thrilling" --Dawkins

Wait what? When your body deteriates it becomes earth molecules. Dirt. So are you saying that reptiles pass on their atoms from one generation to the next?
Everything is made up of atoms, those atoms collect on your shoes and such, but in no way do those dirt molecules transfer to sperm and eggs.

I'm not sure if this is what you mean, atoms move around yes, but it doesn't cause conciousness to travel. Your thoughts aren't atoms, strange thought.
But yeah.

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 04:20 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
i think dawkins wanted to point out both the irony and the fascination in being part of such a great cycle.

and also mock people who try so hard to seek something else than the obvious.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 04:23 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Mmm gotch'yah. Ohwell, when your dead your dead, its just sad that we die when our bodies have the potential to live 300 or more years.

awein999 12-18-2009 04:24 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
all matter since the big bang has traveled, part of that matter came together to be your consciousness eventually later in the universe's existence That's where we came from. And this is a quote from a famous scientist not me lol.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 04:26 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
One scientist doesn't just prove evolution completely, now this isn't a topic about evolution, but why should I believe in evolution when even the scientists, the supposed experts don't even agree on it?

Mollocephalus 12-18-2009 04:56 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304296)
why should I believe in evolution when even the scientists, the supposed experts don't even agree on it?

why should i believe in pasta when even the most prestigeous chefs cannot agree on the cooking time

devonin 12-18-2009 04:57 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
As you say this -isn't- a thread about evolution, so lets not get into this thread of the discussion here please. Though cix, I'll point out that quoting a scientist is not the same as concluding either that the one scientist is the only one who believes that, or that one scientist believing something necessarily makes it fact.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 05:07 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Well alright, but Dawkins beliefs were more based on emotional-driven results. He wasn't driven by evidence. But thats all I'm going to say on that.

perfectchaoslemon 12-18-2009 05:24 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Izzy (Post 3304284)
Why are you having so much trouble with this... Of course you can't skip over something that's infinite because that is the point. You don't skip over it, it just keeps going. You are infinity non existent after that point because you have no more brain to observe.

I'll repeat it. There is nothing confusing about a permanent loss of consciousness.

Experiencing nothing for infinity isn't any more complicated then nothing for 1 year or 10 years. It just keeps going. It's not so much experiencing nothing because really you wouldn't be experiencing at all. It's just straight up nothing forever. You will be nothing forever when you die. Assuming you is "you" as a whole. Your atoms will probably be distributed among other things.

yes but the thing is you're not grasping the image at all. When you are unconscious, it feels as if you completely skip over that point. It is a completely non-existent part of your life. You say there's nothing confusing about it, but you don't even understand what I'm trying to get to you, so there's no point to what you just said.

It's kinda like dividing by zero. It's undefined because it would mean dividing it an infinite amount of times until it reaches zero, which it can't, so it's just remained as undefined.

Reach 12-18-2009 05:55 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Well, I'm a neuroscientist, which should probably sum up my stance in and of itself, but I will elaborate anyway. Some people here have already taken this stance though, it seems.

The reason we experience anything at all is because of what's happening in our brains. There are no magic processes or spirit within us. Our 'non-physical' minds (i.e. what we experience on a conscious and unconscious level) is just a different manifestation of the physical processes happening in our heads right now.

There are many good reasons to believe this is the case. Consider a drug that alters your perception of reality. How is that possible if experience was something non-physical in nature? It wouldn't be. These drugs work to alter our 'mind' because they alter chemical behavior in our brains which is the same thing as our mind.

Take another example; a paranoid schizophrenic that has auditory hallucinations. Is he 'crazy'? Probably not, since he actually hears those voices. They're caused by unwanted activation of the Broca's area of his brain, which is the same area of the brain activated when he speaks. That is to say, he's talking to himself in a way he can't control.


I could go on, but you probably get the point by now. What's happening in our brain determines our experience. In the absence of a functional brain after death, there cannot be perception. All perception ceases to exist. This is not something you can picture or imagine, because it is the absence of perception. In the same way that you did not exist prior to your birth, you will not exist after your death and reality as you know it will be erased forever without a trace.

(I suppose you could argue nothing ever ceases to exist, because the essence is always preserved; that is, our physical makeup will ultimately live on and be recycled back into the system. This, however, does not mean that we continue to exist after we die though, because the whole of your body is what makes you ...you, not the sum of it's parts).


Quote:

If one cannot picture nothing, then there is no such thing as nothing
Let me get this straight.

Nothing is the absence of anything. In order to 'picture' something, there must be something there. This means that, by definition, it's not possible to 'picture nothing', because 'picture nothing' is a contradiction.

THEREFORE, there is no such thing as nothing.

You might want to check that logic.

I suppose by that same logic, if I said 'It's bitter sweet!', you would say 'If one cannot bitter sweet, then there is no such thing as sweet!'

perfectchaoslemon 12-18-2009 08:20 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Reach (Post 3304354)
Well, I'm a neuroscientist, which should probably sum up my stance in and of itself, but I will elaborate anyway. Some people here have already taken this stance though, it seems.

The reason we experience anything at all is because of what's happening in our brains. There are no magic processes or spirit within us. Our 'non-physical' minds (i.e. what we experience on a conscious and unconscious level) is just a different manifestation of the physical processes happening in our heads right now.

There are many good reasons to believe this is the case. Consider a drug that alters your perception of reality. How is that possible if experience was something non-physical in nature? It wouldn't be. These drugs work to alter our 'mind' because they alter chemical behavior in our brains which is the same thing as our mind.

Take another example; a paranoid schizophrenic that has auditory hallucinations. Is he 'crazy'? Probably not, since he actually hears those voices. They're caused by unwanted activation of the Broca's area of his brain, which is the same area of the brain activated when he speaks. That is to say, he's talking to himself in a way he can't control.


I could go on, but you probably get the point by now. What's happening in our brain determines our experience. In the absence of a functional brain after death, there cannot be perception. All perception ceases to exist. This is not something you can picture or imagine, because it is the absence of perception. In the same way that you did not exist prior to your birth, you will not exist after your death and reality as you know it will be erased forever without a trace.

(I suppose you could argue nothing ever ceases to exist, because the essence is always preserved; that is, our physical makeup will ultimately live on and be recycled back into the system. This, however, does not mean that we continue to exist after we die though, because the whole of your body is what makes you ...you, not the sum of it's parts).




Let me get this straight.

Nothing is the absence of anything. In order to 'picture' something, there must be something there. This means that, by definition, it's not possible to 'picture nothing', because 'picture nothing' is a contradiction.

THEREFORE, there is no such thing as nothing.

You might want to check that logic.

I suppose by that same logic, if I said 'It's bitter sweet!', you would say 'If one cannot bitter sweet, then there is no such thing as sweet!'

Now I'd say that this is a pretty good reason to follow, but this is only if the fact that nothing happens after we die is 100% true, which it really isn't. I did mention earlier that I'm listening to people's opinions, so I'm not going to shoot yours down, but I would like to mention that since you have not experienced death yet, you do not have full-proof evidence that nothing happens after we die. I'm not telling you to convert to believing something exists, but be semi-open about it. Even if you can disprove in every possible way the existence of a spiritual power, there are going to be plenty of others who will disprove those theories as well. I'm saying this mostly in response to the "there are no magic processes or spirits within us" quote. There are too many things about humans that science cannot explain.

As for the nothing quote, yeah I wasn't going for that meaning. I kinda wrote it wrong, but I meant that there is no such thing as nothing.

Izzy 12-18-2009 08:35 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
You are just claiming that you are taking other peoples opinion into consideration and then saying that we aren't 100% correct. No duh, no one is claiming they are absolutely right. If you were just going to come start a thread to shoot everyone down and ultimately never even change your opinion cause you so strongly believe you are right then what was the point?

You are quite annoying sir.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 08:38 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I'm pretty sure your not going to get a person to come back from the dead to tell you how it felt.
To simplify it, just look at what the bible has know for thousands of years at John 10:11

He said these things, and after this he said to them: “Laz′a‧rus our friend has gone to rest, but I am journeying there to awaken him from sleep.” 12*Therefore the disciples said to him: “Lord, if he has gone to rest, he will get well.” 13*Jesus had spoken, however, about his death. But they imagined he was speaking about taking rest in sleep. 14*At that time, therefore, Jesus said to them outspokenly: “Laz′a‧rus has died.

Jesus likened death to sleep, a dreamless sleep. That its. When you die its as if your sleeping.

Reach 12-18-2009 08:41 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

I would like to mention that since you have not experienced death yet, you do not have full-proof evidence that nothing happens after we die.
There are a few problems here.

1. Experiencing something does not constitute proof, nor does something have to be experienced for you to prove it. There are many things we know for a fact that cannot be experienced (e.g. things happening on the quantum level).

2. My entire point was that death cannot, by definition, ever be experienced, because it is the absence of experience.

3. You've really got the burden of proof backwards here. You've done and said absolutely nothing to convince me that there's life after death, or that there is actually a spirit that exists. However, saying that there is life after death is a 'claim'.

Any claim is subject to the burden of proof; that is, before I should even bother taking you seriously, you should give me evidence and reason as to why you're right.

I know you wouldn't take me seriously if I claimed NASA just discovered a new extrasolar planet that is swarming with blue hedgehogs running around collecting golden rings and trying to foil the plans of a fat genius, especially if I didn't give you any evidence to support this claim.

But that's basically what you're doing here.

I, on the other hand, gave real life neurological examples of why you're wrong.


So really, give me some actual substance to your argument and I'll take you seriously.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 08:52 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
The soul surviving death is not a christian belief... In ancient Greece Socrates and Plato held that a soul inside a person survives death, and never dies.Its a false Greek practice that penetrated true christian beliefs.
For instance in Ezekiel 18:3

‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will no more continue to be YOURS to express this proverbial saying in Israel. 4*Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 09:06 PM

don't spoil the suprise guyzz

That life emerged by accident. That through a series of unlikely, random events, that the human race was formed, produced with all of its emotional, intellect, and spiritual capacities.
That we all come from a common ancestor.

In a sense we would be an orphan. We would have no source of a superior wisdom to consult, no one to help us solve our problems.
Evolution is the theory that various mutations occured and changed into our genetic code, a scientific impossibility. And the creatures that could not survive died out.

Holy cow, man. Did you even look into it? Just because science can tell you why there's light doesn't mean they can tell you why its there. Just about everything is torn apart and spit back together by atheists.

I take the world as it is logically. Now I haven't gone to no, fancy college or go to grad school. But have you ever thought that bacteria doesn't change?
A sunflower for instance, it's seeds are arranged in a perfect golden spiral.

fido123 12-18-2009 09:11 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304422)
The soul surviving death is not a christian belief... In ancient Greece Socrates and Plato held that a soul inside a person survives death, and never dies.Its a false Greek practice that penetrated true christian beliefs.
For instance in Ezekiel 18:3

‘As I am alive,’ is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, ‘it will no more continue to be YOURS to express this proverbial saying in Israel. 4*Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so likewise the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul that is sinning—it itself will die.


Please keep your religion out of the forum. If you're going to go as far as say one belief is wrong and yours is write which I suggest you think, I'm going to go as far to say that the Christian belief of heaven and hell is a false one that penetrates scientific belief. I studied the Bible, I took courses about it. I think The Bible is completely false, and there is no evidence supporting it so please, don't use them in an argument where you must prove your facts. The Bible is not a credible source. I'm not saying don't believe in it, just don't use it as proof.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 09:12 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Don't use it as proof? Okay then don't use google for your proof.

Izzy 12-18-2009 09:18 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Way to just kill any shred of credibility you will ever have.

Ps: Google isn't a source, it's a search engine.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 09:23 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Yes its a search engine. But when you search for something on there chances are you'll get something so biased it doesn't have any credibility.
This seems like religous question. And so from a biblical standpoint, death is death.
Why am I the bad guy when suddenly I bring out one of the most accurate books in the world and you quote a scientist?

I answered the question from the bible. And thats all I needed to do here.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 09:27 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304324)
Well alright, but Dawkins beliefs were more based on emotional-driven results. He wasn't driven by evidence. But thats all I'm going to say on that.

This is TOTALLY untrue, by the way. His entire stance is PURELY evidence-driven. Otherwise, give me an example to support your claim.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VxGMqKCcN6A

Are you going to tell me all of his examples/believes are based on emotion? They're based purely on the merits of evidence. If anything, a belief in God, for many, is an emotional one!

Of course you're going to end your statement up there with "But that's all I'm going to say on that" -- there's nothing you can really add to substantiate that claim, as it's a false one.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 09:33 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Evolution has more holes in it then any other belief.
Where's my proof of a God? Where's my hope that I have?
I base my claim on logic, not emotion.
Have you ever actually looked at the Earth? Have you examined water molecules and how they stick together?
Or have you even looked at the Golden Spiral of the galaxy?

Or the variety and the colors. Have you even considered the wings of a luminecent butterfly? Or how its ridges are so intricate to disprove evolution?
Don't tell me I have no proof when I have the Earth as proof.

If the Earth was tilted in just the wrong way, or rotated at just the wrong speed. We would all be dead. If we were just a hundred miles closer to the sun or further, we would be dead.
This world is my proof, along with the universe.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 09:33 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304296)
One scientist doesn't just prove evolution completely, now this isn't a topic about evolution, but why should I believe in evolution when even the scientists, the supposed experts don't even agree on it?

This is also incorrect. Evolution is a very well-understood process, and it is factual. Scientists may not agree on certain specific details of form origins, but the process of evolution and natural selection is well-substantiated by mountains of evidence. The only people who disagree with it are typically those who misunderstand it or are unaware of the evidence. Now, if you're getting into abiogenesis, I'd agree that many people are unsure/may disagree because it's not as well-supported. But, as stated in the metaphysics thread, a belief in evolution doesn't mean you have to believe in abiogenesis. Evolution simply describes how lifeforms change assuming there is life to begin with. Abiogenesis is a theory for how that life may have originated in the first place.

Explain to me your understanding of what evolution and natural selection is, please, and why you do not believe in it.

Silver Sky 12-18-2009 09:34 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Wow. Read the bible. The bible is the most dated back book that was found in scrolls. Nothing is dated back more than the bible. Just read Ecclesiastes 9 verse 5: For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all; neither do they have any more wages, because the remembrance of them has been forgotten. So a figurative sleep is what this means. Not Hell fire. Also Read Genesis 3 verse 19. Says : In the sweat of your face you will eat bread until you return to the ground. FOR OUT OF IT YOU WERE TAKEN. FOR DUST YOU ARE AND TO DUST YOU WILL RETURN. Yes we are made from dust. Case closed.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 09:43 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304440)
Evolution has more holes in it then any other belief.
Where's my proof of a God? Where's my hope that I have?
I base my claim on logic, not emotion.
Have you ever actually looked at the Earth? Have you examined water molecules and how they stick together?
Or have you even looked at the Golden Spiral of the galaxy?

Or the variety and the colors. Have you even considered the wings of a luminecent butterfly? Or how its ridges are so intricate to disprove evolution?
Don't tell me I have no proof when I have the Earth as proof.

If the Earth was tilted in just the wrong way, or rotated at just the wrong speed. We would all be dead. If we were just a hundred miles closer to the sun or further, we would be dead.
This world is my proof, along with the universe.

This is a very, very common misunderstanding.

Keep in mind we wouldn't BE HERE in the first place if not for necessary conditions. Our life form is specific in the sense that our environment is conducive to it. We exist precisely BECAUSE our planet is in the right place with the right resources. If all the other planets had similar conditions, they may have life too, but they do not. There are billions of galaxies containing billions of stars with planets. We just happen to be one planet with the necessary conditions for life. There may be many more.

As for your "color"/butterfly/water argument, these things are all deterministic. We see the colors that we do because our form is evolved to do so. Consider the bee -- its visible spectrum is shifted down the EM spectrum compared to us. They are able to see UV whereas we cannot. The ability to perceive color is merely a physical construct made to interact with and interpret a certain range of wavelengths. Different forms may interpret different ranges.

How on earth do the ridges of a butterfly's wings disprove evolution?

Water molecules stick together the way that they do based on physical forces. We can explain all sorts of forces -- strong nuclear, weak nuclear, gravity, electromagnetic, dispersion, dipole-dipole, hydrogen bonds, etc. We dont say water does what it does by chance but rather it does what it does because of its properties and how the forces interact as a result. It's deterministic.

You base your claim on emotion still -- you're saying "Look at how complex this stuff is! Look at how improbable certain things must be! How pretty some things are! This must have been the work of God!" That is an emotional response -- not a logical one.

Again, explain these holes in evolution you refer to, please. If you are truly a man of logic and not faith, then you should be able to provide a logical explanation that shows why the current evidence MUST be logically suspect.

devonin 12-18-2009 09:53 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I'll also point out that we're skirting dangerously close to unfalsifiability here. Since nobody I'm aware of has even been dead, come back to life, and claimed to have experienced any kind of awareness while dead, and do so in a way that is incontrovertibly true, there is no correct conclusion this thread or any poster in it could arrive at. All we have are suppositions, and while some suppositions are more likely than others, and some are based on more concrete evidence than others, nobody here is going to be proven correct or incorrect.

Also, sorry cix0clock I was merging your double post (Stop double posting, by the way) but still had a post from earlier in the thread selected for deletion, and ended up merging them all back a page. You can repost your post if you like, or we can just move forward, but I seem to lack the ability to revert the merge.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 09:55 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304448)
That life emerged by accident. That through a series of unlikely, random events, that the human race was formed, produced with all of its emotional, intellect, and spiritual capacities.
That we all come from a common ancestor.

In a sense we would be an orphan. We would have no source of a superior wisdom to consult, no one to help us solve our problems.
Evolution is the theory that various mutations occured and changed into our genetic code, a scientific impossibility. And the creatures that could not survive died out.

No evolutionist would say that life emerged by accident. Evolution and natural selection is a very non-random process. It's very much a deterministic one.

Again, don't confuse evolution for abiogenesis. They are separate concepts.

Saying that "life is too improbable to come about by chance" is missing the point. We don't say things happen because of chance.

It would be like dropping a ball and then watching where it lands, saying "Look at how improbable it was for this ball to land in this very spot! There are an infinitely great number of areas this ball could have technically hit the ground. Watch me calculate 1/huge number to show how unlikely this one scenario is." And yet we don't say the ball landed there by chance, but because of gravity and other factors such as wind resistance, drop angle, velocity differentials, etc. All of which are deterministic forces. We don't know WHERE the ball will land -- just that it will LAND SOMEWHERE. Much like evolution, this is not a forward-looking process. Evolution doesn't know how things will end up -- just that there WILL be change to adapt to the environment.

Also, since when do we absolutely "need" a higher authority to help us solve our problems? This is, again, an emotional response.

"Evolution is the theory that various mutations occured and changed into our genetic code, a scientific impossibility. And the creatures that could not survive died out."

What? How on earth is this a scientific impossibility when we fully understand genetic mutation? How do you explain the reproduction process, then?

You are right that creatures that could not survive eventually die out. This is a function of natural selection. Things best equipped to withstand the environment and other life forms will carry on. "Survival of the fittest," so to speak. But you are incorrect that mutation is a scientific impossibility, lol. Mutations occur from generation to generation, and through gradual changes do we start to filter out the mutations less fit and perpetuate those that ARE fit to continue to reproduce and mutate to self-reinforce the process.

Ryn2075 12-18-2009 09:57 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3304441)
This is also incorrect. Evolution is a very well-understood process, and it is factual. Scientists may not agree on certain specific details of form origins, but the process of evolution and natural selection is well-substantiated by mountains of evidence. The only people who disagree with it are typically those who misunderstand it or are unaware of the evidence. Now, if you're getting into abiogenesis, I'd agree that many people are unsure/may disagree because it's not as well-supported. But, as stated in the metaphysics thread, a belief in evolution doesn't mean you have to believe in abiogenesis. Evolution simply describes how lifeforms change assuming there is life to begin with. Abiogenesis is a theory for how that life may have originated in the first place.

Explain to me your understanding of what evolution and natural selection is, please, and why you do not believe in it.

Let me ask you a question Mr. Rubix. If evolution is such a well-understood process, backed by what you call "mountains of evidence" (even though most of that evidence can't be linked to one another in a linear format), then why haven't scientists been able to duplicate the functions of a bird properly? A simple bird, who takes off and flaps its wings to propel itself forward. If scientists understand that so well, why can't they create a plane capable of taking off and landing using only flapping limbs? Why can't scientists figure out the specifics of how a bird knows when to migrate? There are numerous examples of intricate design in the life-forms here on earth.

Another example. A cheetah can run up to 60-65 mph, yet it can turn instantly at a 90 degree angle. If this is so well-understood, why haven't scientists been able to create a transportation device capable of turning in such a way? You say you have evidence, but like I said, none of that "evidence" can be linked to one another with factual proof. Evolution is far from factual, and is a theory and belief just like religion is.

~Ryan

P.S. - By your viewpoint, Waldo also evolved from something else. Where is Waldo? No one knows. If scientists know everything about Waldo, why can't they find him? =P Lolz.

Silver Sky 12-18-2009 09:59 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
And the bible is real yes. All these scrolls they found in Hebrew wasn't just a coincidence. The bible tells about so many different prophecies that occured and still are occuring. Examples? I will be glad to explain some. For instance with Babylon the Great. It was prophesied that Babylon the Great would become desolated. Jehovah God brought that city to ruin cause of the things happening there. And God even said that No one would ever even live there again. Results? Find me one person who lives in that vast desert. 2) All these troublesome times we are living in. You might not be feeling it yet but it's going to get far worse. All dating back to 1914. The bible actually has all dates leading up to prophesying that Satan the Devil was hurled down to the earth in 1914. Results? War World 1 Yes the bible prophesied this happening. Do research on how the world was before 1914 and how it was afterwards, and you tell me something didn't happen. 3) As brought out before about these troublesome times. Read 2 Timothy 3: 1-5. It says and I quote: But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self control, fierce, without love of goodness, betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, having a form of Godly devotion but proving false to its power, and from these turn away. Hmm....weird All these events are taking place today. There are so many prophecies that have occured and are occuring. So yes the bible is real.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 09:59 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 3304451)
I'll also point out that we're skirting dangerously close to unfalsifiability here. Since nobody I'm aware of has even been dead, come back to life, and claimed to have experienced any kind of awareness while dead, and do so in a way that is incontrovertibly true, there is no correct conclusion this thread or any poster in it could arrive at. All we have are suppositions, and while some suppositions are more likely than others, and some are based on more concrete evidence than others, nobody here is going to be proven correct or incorrect.

Absolutely. We, of course, won't know what happens in death until we actually hit it. And, if there is nothing after death, we won't know it's death by that very nature. If there is an afterlife, then I'll be pleasantly surprised.

But there is plenty of evidence we can use to suggest one conclusion over another. It comes down to whether or not you're a man of logic/science or faith. Some people are okay with believing something in absence of evidence, and that's fine. Others require evidence and support for what they believe in.

devonin 12-18-2009 10:02 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
@silver sky nobody is suggesting that the bible isn't real. It is, I've read several. What they are saying is that the bible is not completely factual. And that is also true.

I could write a book now, that was 99% factually correct, and put in 1% that said I was the undisputed master of the universe, and all should worship me. I can still point to the fact that it is 99% correct, but does that mean it is 100% correct?

Let me put it another way: Just because some things in the bible are factual doesn't mean it all is.


@Ryn Just because we don't know -something- doesn't mean we don't know -anything- this is the exact same logic as directed to Silver Sky. You've pointed to an example of cheetahs. They have both high speed and a very small turning radius, so why haven't we made a means of transportation that does that? On -foot- I have an identically tight turning radius, and by car I can move substantially faster for a substantially longer time. Why would I WANT TO BOTHER trying to make a mode of transportation that exactly duplicates the speed and turning ability of a cheetah?

Silver Sky 12-18-2009 10:08 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I'm referring to fido123. And the bible is 100 percent accurate. Name one thing about the bible being inaccurate?

MrRubix 12-18-2009 10:12 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryn2075 (Post 3304455)
Let me ask you a question Mr. Rubix. If evolution is such a well-understood process, backed by what you call "mountains of evidence" (even though most of that evidence can't be linked to one another in a linear format), then why haven't scientists been able to duplicate the functions of a bird properly? A simple bird, who takes off and flaps its wings to propel itself forward. If scientists understand that so well, why can't they create a plane capable of taking off and landing using only flapping limbs? Why can't scientists figure out the specifics of how a bird knows when to migrate? There are numerous examples of intricate design in the life-forms here on earth.

Another example. A cheetah can run up to 60-65 mph, yet it can turn instantly at a 90 degree angle. If this is so well-understood, why haven't scientists been able to create a transportation device capable of turning in such a way? You say you have evidence, but like I said, none of that "evidence" can be linked to one another with factual proof. Evolution is far from factual, and is a theory and belief just like religion is.

~Ryan

P.S. - By your viewpoint, Waldo also evolved from something else. Where is Waldo? No one knows. If scientists know everything about Waldo, why can't they find him? =P Lolz.

I don't understand how your questions here are meant to grind against evolution. Evolution is a natural process. We do understand why birds fly, and we can also show this by creating various things that DO fly.

http://blog.modernmechanix.com/2009/...anes-wont-fly/
http://www.prisonplanet.com/insect-s...ing-wings.html

We make planes that soar because we need a way to transport heavy cargo. Birds are hollow-boned and comparatively light. Wings that flap do so because of the ability to fine-tune. It'd be like saying "We can't replicate a machine that walks like a human, so walking must be impossible." While we do have machines that do this, we are able to walk like we do because we can adjust HOW we walk in real-time in response to various stimuli, much like how a bird controls its wings. Most "wing flapping machines" can't adjust to the stimuli in real-time in the same manner. It doesn't mean wing flapping is impossible when a bird is obviously capable of it. It's just not a technology we, as humans, honestly have much use for when we can control efficient flying and fine-tuning with a straight-winged, fueled plane.

Same goes for your Cheetah example -- we have plenty of devices that move and operate in a way more efficiently and differently from other forms of transportation -- I don't know why you're saying "A human cannot reproduce this function, therefore evolution is false." The argument itself just doesn't make sense. What point are you trying to get at, here?

Evolution is a process that is very much factual and substantiated by proof, so I don't know where you're getting off saying that it's just as fanciful as any other belief.

Ryn2075 12-18-2009 10:12 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I never said that the speed of a cheetah should be replicated, just the turning ability. Speed is not an issue, and turning ability is not the issue. Turning ability WHILE going fast is my point. Why WOULDN'T you want to create something like that? It has the potential to save lives and prevent accidents.

What I said in my post is not fact, as I can't disprove evolution any more than evolutionists can disprove creation, but it IS logical.

Reach 12-18-2009 10:17 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryn2075 (Post 3304455)
Let me ask you a question Mr. Rubix. If evolution is such a well-understood process, backed by what you call "mountains of evidence" (even though most of that evidence can't be linked to one another in a linear format), then why haven't scientists been able to duplicate the functions of a bird properly? A simple bird, who takes off and flaps its wings to propel itself forward. If scientists understand that so well, why can't they create a plane capable of taking off and landing using only flapping limbs? Why can't scientists figure out the specifics of how a bird knows when to migrate? There are numerous examples of intricate design in the life-forms here on earth.

Another example. A cheetah can run up to 60-65 mph, yet it can turn instantly at a 90 degree angle. If this is so well-understood, why haven't scientists been able to create a transportation device capable of turning in such a way? You say you have evidence, but like I said, none of that "evidence" can be linked to one another with factual proof. Evolution is far from factual, and is a theory and belief just like religion is.

~Ryan

P.S. - By your viewpoint, Waldo also evolved from something else. Where is Waldo? No one knows. If scientists know everything about Waldo, why can't they find him? =P Lolz.

Please explain to me what duplicating the functions of a bird has to do with evolution.

None of this has anything to do with evolution. You can prove evolution is true independent of any of this.

I've never heard such a strange argument. Is this an extension of the watch maker argument? If so, you can find numerous rebuttals just about anywhere, so I won't bother.


Also, your last sentence is the farthest thing from the truth. Please explain to me how evolution constitutes a belief system.

Also, why don't you explain to me what a theory is to test whether you're even remotely scientifically literate.


I'm not going to get into a discussion with someone that is profoundly ignorant on this subject. From experience, people that make such claims are scientifically illiterate.


I don't even want to get into this really, but if you're going to barge into a four page thread and start making grandiose claims, you're going to have to back them up with something other than rubbish.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 10:19 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Ryn2075 (Post 3304475)
I never said that the speed of a cheetah should be replicated, just the turning ability. Speed is not an issue, and turning ability is not the issue. Turning ability WHILE going fast is my point. Why WOULDN'T you want to create something like that? It has the potential to save lives and prevent accidents.

What I said in my post is not fact, as I can't disprove evolution any more than evolutionists can disprove creation, but it IS logical.

Hardly logical. We have all sorts of cars, for instance, that have very tight turning radii at high speeds, so saying "sharp turning at high speeds is impossible" is just false. A cheetah is a sentient life form that can move the way it does because of how it is equipped. It has joints that allow it to twist and turn at various points. It has a brain that reacts to stimuli and can fine-tune the muscle movements. If we made a car that turns 90 degrees at some absurdly high speed, the inertia would be quite disorienting to humans. You wouldn't want to be making a 90 degree turn at 70 MPH in the first place (I can already imagine what kind of accidents could result from this), so your safety argument is hardly a logical one.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 10:29 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
I don't see how you can view evolution as logical, everything about it; mentally, physically, its more like saying that 'you don't believe in god, but I believe in a magical explosion that created our sophisticated bodies in roughly 5billion years'. Now thats illogical; believe it or not but evolution is a religion in itself. It believes that things occured randomly and without explaination, except that bacteria formed and grew into fish.

Silver Sky 12-18-2009 10:32 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
It's just like a house. Do you think a house just appears out of no where? All plumbing, electricity, paint, furnishing, all these things appeared out of no where? Of course not. They all took time. Planning the blue prints, measuring, carpenters, plumbers, electricians. the whole nine yards. The same way is with the earth. All of a sudden a "Big Bang" occured that our earth crashing from another rock all of a sudden put trees, oxygen, water, all these beautiful things we see here. Yeah sure. It would take time, a creator to do such a thing. To plan ahead with knowing how close to put us away or close to the sun. To have these planets lined up so no planet would crash into another. It's actually common sense. God must be an evolutionist. He was the one who said the earth was round in the first place before humans could ever even think.

Ryn2075 12-18-2009 10:35 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
@MR. Rubix

I apologize, I think you guys are understanding that I'm trying to disprove evolution by itself. I'm pushing my discussion that the theory of everything being created is logical.

After thinking about it for a second, I realize turning at 70 mph might not be such a great idea. XD Our internal organs would most likely be sloshed around a bit. but MY point is, it hasn't been done, not because they don't want to, but because they CAN'T. Your article you posted clearly states that every attempt to make a wing-flapping aerial device has FAILED. Tell me, why is that? Are scientists incapable, or not intelligent enough to figure it out? Hardly, if other advances in technology are any indication. They haven't done it because they CAN'T. You say we would have no need for such a thing. In the case of the cheetah, I realize you're 100% correct. But in the case of a plane, it's completely logical to make something like that. Not only would it be safer for the environment, but it would most likely be safer overall as there are less problems that can occur midflight, the least of them being that you can't ever run out of fuel.

In a sense, I am trying to disprove evolution by saying creation is LOGICAL, but in essence, I can't, because in the end what I believe is just that: A belief. You are 100% correct in saying that I don't have undeniable, irrefutable facts that point to creation being true instead of evolution, but logically, creation can be argued as a solid theory just as much as evolution, simply because, as I stated, the designs in many of natures more complicated animals cannot be duplicated. And the other point I'm making is, while you say you have mountains of evidence, evolution is STILL not viewed as 100% undeniable, irrefutable fact. I have no problem with you saying you believe it based on the evidence you have, but I DO have an issue with you saying it is factual, because in the end there isn't enough proof to say it IS factual.

Now listen, I don't want you getting the wrong idea guys. I'm not trying to change anyone's thoughts or say that I am undeniably right, I'm just having a simple discussion. I hope you guys understand that, we're all just having a simple disscussion with our various opinions, just like any other topic that could ever be discussed that hasn't been proven as completely true.

By the way, I have a question. What keyboard set-up do you use Mr. Rubix?

~Ryan

Izzy 12-18-2009 10:36 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Silver Sky (Post 3304468)
I'm referring to fido123. And the bible is 100 percent accurate. Name one thing about the bible being inaccurate?

It's nice to know that you believe women should be stoned to death for minor offenses and should never be allowed to have an ounce of authority.
Also the thing about the earth only being 5000 years old.

Reach 12-18-2009 10:42 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304487)
I don't see how you can view evolution as logical, everything about it; mentally, physically, its more like saying that 'you don't believe in god, but I believe in a magical explosion that created our sophisticated bodies in roughly 5billion years'. Now thats illogical; believe it or not but evolution is a religion in itself. It believes that things occured randomly and without explaination, except that bacteria formed and grew into fish.

So basically what you're saying is you know absolutely nothing about evolution.

I've spent a significant amount of my academic record studying evolution. Don't pretend to know something about it when you can't differentiate between biological evolution and Big Bang Theory/formation of the solar system.

Quote:

It's just like a house. Do you think a house just appears out of no where? All plumbing, electricity, paint, furnishing, all these things appeared out of no where? Of course not. They all took time. Planning the blue prints, measuring, carpenters, plumbers, electricians. the whole nine yards. The same way is with the earth.
You're cherry picking your examples to make a false analogy.

You conveniently pick a house as your example, which is something you know was built by a human.

The earth was not built by a human. So, why don't you pick something else? Say, a rock. People don't build rocks.

Houses need builders. Rocks need...rockers? And blue prints? Measuring? They're just pieces of solid Earth.

What about rain drops? Rainers? Wait, we have clouds that do that naturally.


Clearly your analogy does not apply to everything. You have no way of logically inferring that the Earth was therefore designed.

Quote:

By the way, I have a question. What keyboard set-up do you use Mr. Rubix?
No offense intended, but please stay on topic.

cixOclock 12-18-2009 10:43 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Believe in stoning women to death over minor offenses? That was the old laws where if a woman commited adultery she would be stoned.
Those laws no longer apply, those laws were in place to protect the israelites from stubborn obstinance. Which they failed at miserably.
A woman was only stoned to death for fornication, disrespecting her husband day in and day out without correction.

MrRubix 12-18-2009 10:43 PM

Re: What happens after we die.
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by cixOclock (Post 3304487)
I don't see how you can view evolution as logical, everything about it; mentally, physically, its more like saying that 'you don't believe in god, but I believe in a magical explosion that created our sophisticated bodies in roughly 5billion years'. Now thats illogical; believe it or not but evolution is a religion in itself. It believes that things occured randomly and without explaination, except that bacteria formed and grew into fish.

I'm not going to get into this debate with you when you appear largely ignorant of what evolution and natural selection entail. The Big Bang isn't some "magical explosion" people just come up with for the hell of it. It's a concept arrived at through evidence.

And, again, evolution is a NONRANDOM PROCESS and HAS an explanation. You're just assuming it's random because you are misunderstanding what evolution is.


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