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-   -   Is it wrong to be gay? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=113296)

MrRubix 10-24-2009 03:43 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Anyways, here's the fundamental issue as I see it:

It's been declared that the US is a Christian nation and that marriage is primarily a Christian function. However, many like to keep marriage as a "Christian function between man and woman" as denoted in the bible:

http://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-Bible.html
http://bible.org/article/homosexuali...an-perspective

And, so, many seem to believe that to change "marriage" as it is defined is to be ignorant of its origins and implications. Of course, if this were true, why didn't we see more uprisings against atheists marrying?

But, you know what -- if you want to keep "marriage" as defined as a man-woman pairing, and people absolutely don't want to extend that word to include other forms, then I think that's fine. Calling it something else is fine as long as the rights are equal to those of marriage. I think it's a reasonable compromise that still ensures equal rights.

Mollocephalus 10-24-2009 03:47 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
marriage is a stupid concept to begin with but it has socially practical applications. many coutries state in their constitutions how their norms are guided by divine teachings and religious boundaries, but it's probably time to move on from that. it's been a good while. christianity, or any other kind of religion for that matter, has ceased to aptly regulate and represent society dozens of years ago.

/religion

funmonkey54 10-24-2009 03:49 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3268549)
You ignored my last answer.

I probably missed it. There were a large number of posts all at once that came in and I really do not have the time nor the will to argue them all again in this thread. It seems that there are no more arguments on either side and to keep repeating the same things is not necessary. If you want to PM me and just kind of explore the topic and each other's opinions further, I would be glad to do so.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3268554)
Anyways, here's the fundamental issue as I see it:

It's been declared that the US is a Christian nation and that marriage is primarily a Christian function. However, many like to keep marriage as a "Christian function between man and woman" as denoted in the bible:

http://www.gotquestions.org/marriage-Bible.html
http://bible.org/article/homosexuali...an-perspective

And, so, many seem to believe that to change "marriage" as it is defined is to be ignorant of its origins and implications. Of course, if this were true, why didn't we see more uprisings against atheists marrying?

But, you know what -- if you want to keep "marriage" as defined as a man-woman pairing, and people absolutely don't want to extend that word to include other forms, then I think that's fine. Calling it something else is fine as long as the rights are equal to those of marriage. I think it's a reasonable compromise that still ensures equal rights.

I would agree with this.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 03:51 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by funmonkey54 (Post 3268562)
I probably missed it. There were a large number of posts all at once that came in and I really do not have the time nor the will to argue them all again in this thread. It seems that there are no more arguments on either side and to keep repeating the same things is not necessary. If you want to PM me and just kind of explore the topic and each other's opinions further, I would be glad to do so.

No, I want you to answer the question I made in the end of that post. It isn't too hard for you to go back some pages and read it, right?

MrRubix 10-24-2009 03:51 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
I understand that trying to change a religious function to something that is inherently AGAINST that religion is quite the violation, and so I'm not going to be so presumptuous as to force a non-religious overlay onto a pre-established religious function, despite the fact that I myself am atheist (oh and first amendment lol) -- however, this issue, coupled with the ignorance of the masses regarding homosexuality, is probably why it's been such an arduous and ongoing issue. However, I do think that anyone should be allowed to marry -- whatever you want to call it -- with equal rights of that of anyone else.

The problem I have with "civil unions," besides the fact that the phrase doesn't sound nearly as romantic as "marriage" on a purely aesthetic/emotional level, is that they don't offer the same rights as marriage:
http://lesbianlife.about.com/cs/wedd...nvmarriage.htm

funmonkey54 10-24-2009 03:59 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3268567)
No, I want you to answer the question I made in the end of that post. It isn't too hard for you to go back some pages and read it, right?

Don't be an ass. But yes, I will go back in due time. Just let me finish this paper that is due in 2 hours. I will PM you my answer. Also, can you be more specific as to which question. Assuming it isn't too hard for you to specify which question.

Also, the PM thing is because this thread is coming to a close in case you haven't noticed and once again, no exact right or wrong is going to be found on the subject as long as people are allowed to have their own opinions. I will gladly explore further each others opinions with you, but that is about the limit of how much farther I care to go with this.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 04:12 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by funmonkey54 (Post 3268582)
Don't be an ass. But yes, I will go back in due time. Just let me finish this paper that is due in 2 hours. I will PM you my answer. Also, can you be more specific as to which question. Assuming it isn't too hard for you to specify which question.

Also, the PM thing is because this thread is coming to a close in case you haven't noticed and once again, no exact right or wrong is going to be found on the subject as long as people are allowed to have their own opinions. I will gladly explore further each others opinions with you, but that is about the limit of how much farther I care to go with this.

Sorry, I sometimes act like that when I get ignored.
This is the post: http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...&postcount=118

MrGiggles 10-24-2009 04:13 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3268597)
This is the same sort of logic behind date rape -- "they didn't say no" when they were incapable of doing so. "Her body language was saying yes."

So, make restraining an animal so it can't effectively communicate discomfort or dislike illegal. Sure. But if the animal isn't stopped from resisting and doesn't resist, then I see no problem. Like I said, I want it to be strictly regulated.

MrRubix 10-24-2009 04:15 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3268603)
So, make restraining an animal so it can't effectively communicate discomfort or dislike illegal. Sure. But if the animal isn't stopped from resisting and doesn't resist, then I see no problem. Like I said, I want it to be strictly regulated.

Again though, not the point -- you can get hit with a rape charge even if the person you have sex with doesn't say yes/no and doesn't resist. Non-resistance is not enough to prove consent.

MrGiggles 10-24-2009 04:17 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3268605)
Again though, not the point -- you can get hit with a rape charge even if the person you have sex with doesn't say yes/no and doesn't resist. Non-resistance is not enough to prove consent.

Maybe it should be, in the case of animals.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 04:17 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3268603)
So, make restraining an animal so it can't effectively communicate discomfort or dislike illegal. Sure. But if the animal isn't stopped from resisting and doesn't resist, then I see no problem. Like I said, I want it to be strictly regulated.

I can't possibly imagine in what circumstances it would be allowed, assuming it would be "strictly regulated".

MrGiggles 10-24-2009 04:19 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3268609)
I can't possibly imagine in what circumstances it would be allowed, assuming it would be "strictly regulated".

Okay, let's say NFD bends down in front of his uncle's husky and the husky gives it to him. The husky is obviously enjoying itself, as is NFD. I see no reason this should result in NFD being put in da slammer.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 04:23 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3268611)
Okay, let's say NFD bends down in front of his uncle's husky and the husky gives it to him. The husky is obviously enjoying itself, as is NFD. I see no reason this should result in NFD being put in da slammer.

Well, since I have no idea what the husky will think about NFD after this, I'm not so sure... I don't know if this sort of thing can have an impact on the animal's behavior, making it more "dominative", perhaps...
It's complicated, and I think it's completely unnecessary. People and animals can live without this.

MrRubix 10-24-2009 04:25 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3268608)
Maybe it should be, in the case of animals.

The problem is that, if you legalized it, you'd basically open the doors for people to abuse and rape animals. How is an animal going to be able to inform the authorities that they were raped? You're going to essentially trust the human to do that for himself? Animals can't give or withhold consent, and consent is the line between sex and rape.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 04:25 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by robertson3r (Post 3268615)
huh? isnt that the same as saying 'well gays dont NEED to be gay'

No. You can tell how a human feels after this, but not how an animal feels.

MrRubix 10-24-2009 04:28 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
I need not also mention the numerous disease/health exposures.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 04:30 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3268618)
I need not also mention the numerous disease/health exposures.

Yeah. Well, that happens between humans too, but on a smaller scale.

MrGiggles 10-24-2009 04:31 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3268616)
The problem is that, if you legalized it, you'd basically open the doors for people to abuse and rape animals. How is an animal going to be able to inform the authorities that they were raped? You're going to essentially trust the human to do that for himself? Animals can't give or withhold consent, and consent is the line between sex and rape.

Well, to be honest there's not a lot stopping people from raping animals as it is. I think it would be possible, if difficult, to enact new laws that would permit genuine lovemaking between species while still not giving rapists an easy loophole in court.
Quote:

Well, since I have no idea what the husky will think about NFD after this, I'm not so sure... I don't if this sort of thing can have an impact on the animal's behavior, making it more "dominative", perhaps...
Maybe. Worth looking into. It's entirely possible he shaved five years off of the husky's lifespan. :(
Quote:

It's complicated, and I think it's completely unnecessary. People and animals can live without this.
Complicated, undoubtedly. But it must be frustrating to have your love be denounced by everyone and made illegal.

mhss1992 10-24-2009 04:35 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3268625)
Complicated, undoubtedly. But it must be frustrating to have your love be denounced by everyone and made illegal.

How do you know the animal loves you the same way?
If they create a machine that lets people read the minds of animals, it won't be such an issue, but, right now...

MrRubix 10-24-2009 04:37 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mhss1992 (Post 3268621)
Yeah. Well, that happens between humans too, but on a smaller scale.

Right, but why make the problem worse? This is my point.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrGiggles (Post 3268625)
Well, to be honest there's not a lot stopping people from raping animals as it is. I think it would be possible, if difficult, to enact new laws that would permit genuine lovemaking between species while still not giving rapists an easy loophole in court.Maybe. Worth looking into. It's entirely possible he shaved five years off of the husky's lifespan. :(
Complicated, undoubtedly. But it must be frustrating to have your love be denounced by everyone and made illegal.

There's nothing stopping people from raping animals now, but legalizing it is basically giving them a guilt-free legality card to keep abusing animals. Why not legalize human rape, while we're at it? The logic doesn't hold. There's absolutely no way such a law would ever be passed. There's really no argument that works -- an animal simply cannot give consent, and by that alone, it will forever be illegal. You also have no way of telling whether or not the animal loves you. There's no rule that says we can have sex with a human if we love them and they don't resist. That is what we would characterize as a rapist mentality.


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