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-   -   Is it wrong to be gay? (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=113296)

fido123 11-10-2009 03:13 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
I think Mr. Rubix has the causes of it in the bag, however Afro is right too but I think you're failing to understand the two can both work together.

Flaming_Dingleberry 11-10-2009 03:38 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Oh jeez bobeck...

It's not comparable. Humans are an interesting species, we're the only organisms that have our level of language, logic, understanding, and therefore consent. A cat can't give a man consent to **** it, therefore any and every act of bestiality is more or less rape. If there was a man and a cat who grew up together and the cat and man somehow agreed to have sex with each other... then what are you gonna do? Pretend for a second your sexual orientation isn't accepted by the majority. Maybe you would still agree that it is wrong to be gay, but you were still born that way, and as you may or may not know, you can't just switch off gayness. The way I see it, since gayness exists (and has in no way ever promoted acts of bestiality other than in the minds of fearful Christians with no better argument), and can't be converted by anyone anymore than heterosexuality can, we need to start accepting it. I don't care how many people consider gayness a form of bestiality, any negative thoughts or acts against homosexuals is just as bad as racism.

Magewout 11-10-2009 06:04 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3268521)
Like Squeek said, bestiality is illegal because an animal cannot consent. So, that argument is void.

So what about those dogs that hump everything? I'd assume they are very much approving of sex with any kind of creature.

devonin 11-10-2009 06:20 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Magewout (Post 3285092)
So what about those dogs that hump everything? I'd assume they are very much approving of sex with any kind of creature.

What about kids who are thirsty and try to drink the drain cleaner? Just because they do something doesn't mean they know exactly what it is they are doing. Consent has to be informed to count.

Squeek 11-10-2009 07:16 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
If this is seriously the best argument you can come up with for why two people in love with one another cannot get married, then you really need to check where your morality stems from.

This is pathetic.

MrRubix 11-10-2009 07:18 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Squeek (Post 3285169)
If this is seriously the best argument you can come up with for why two people in love with one another cannot get married, then you really need to check where your morality stems from.

This is pathetic.

The only "legitimate" argument I can see stems from religion. But, then again, I always believe in separation of church and state.

Any other argument is effectively out the window.

Afrobean 11-10-2009 07:33 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3285170)
The only "legitimate" argument I can see stems from religion. But, then again, I always believe in separation of church and state.

Any other argument is effectively out the window.

Apart from religious reasons, gay couples raising children falls outside the social norms, so to maintain the status quo, same-sex relationships "should" be disallowed from having children.

MrGiggles 11-10-2009 07:34 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Magewout (Post 3285092)
So what about those dogs that hump everything? I'd assume they are very much approving of sex with any kind of creature.

I just looked at this thread from like a month ago why are we still discussing this holy ****.

I made my opinion clear that I don't think the status quo is the best we can do in terms of bestiality, and Rubix made it clear why its chances of being legalized are so low they're negligible.

EDIT: wait nevermind I just realized this stemmed from bobeck's rofl comparison of homosexuality and bestiality. I'm not even sure what kind of thought process leads to that comparison.

bobeck 11-10-2009 07:54 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
@Devonin. I am not and have not been saying that Homosexuality and Bestiality are identical. My point is to prove that the same reasons advocates use to make homosexuality right are also the same reasons that can be used to approve acts of bestiality and other morally reprehensible acts.

To the rest who are hung up over the issue of consent. If I'm correct, you are saying that the only moral issue separating acts of homosexuality from acts of bestiality is the issue of consent. So then putting consent aside, (just assume consent was not an issue) would you then approve of bestiality?
Remember that consent is much more a legal than a practical definition, and it's not unfeasible to create some type of consent laws in regards to animals, as consent is not limited to verbal communications. Consider the dog who rolls over when petted, would that not constitute consent?

And finally, for those accusers who show little knowledge by calling bestiality rape. It is LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE for bestiality to be classified as rape.
Consider the Californian statutory penal code SECTION 261-269. It starts with
"Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances:" *feel free to view the rest http://davismaar.org/definition.htm

notice the requirement of a person, and most states have something similar to this effect. For this very same reason one who kills a cat can not legally be charged with a homicide even though a killing occurred, because a homicide MUST occur between a human being.

Izzy 11-10-2009 08:00 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
I would be ok with bestiality if they could give consent.

Also that isn't the definition of rape.

Pretty sure you are just trolling though. I don't think anyone is that backwards minded.

MrRubix 11-10-2009 09:12 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean (Post 3285189)
Apart from religious reasons, gay couples raising children falls outside the social norms, so to maintain the status quo, same-sex relationships "should" be disallowed from having children.

Not sure if you're hashing your own argument or someone else's, but just because something isn't the status quo doesn't mean it's harmful. There's nothing saying, for example, that a child cannot be raised by a single parent, or his uncle, or his aunt, or anyone else for that matter -- so clearly the STRUCTURE of the family isn't against the law. Two men or two women would be just as acceptable. The whole "children need a mother and father" argument is total BS.

Kids who grow up with homosexual parents turn out no different than kids with heterosexual parents. What matters is love and stability -- not gender -- from parents. Plenty of heterosexual kids don't "turn gay" when they have gay parents, unlike what some people wonder about. I can think of far worse circumstances for a kid to grow up in that have nothing to do with the sexuality of their parents (things that actually have negative effects such as abuse/neglect/lack of education/poor finances/etc).

These are the things we need to worry about instead of quibbling over the obvious discrimination and fear that stems from pure ignorance and social stupidity.


Quote:

Originally Posted by bobeck (Post 3285216)
@Devonin. I am not and have not been saying that Homosexuality and Bestiality are identical. My point is to prove that the same reasons advocates use to make homosexuality right are also the same reasons that can be used to approve acts of bestiality and other morally reprehensible acts.

To the rest who are hung up over the issue of consent. If I'm correct, you are saying that the only moral issue separating acts of homosexuality from acts of bestiality is the issue of consent. So then putting consent aside, (just assume consent was not an issue) would you then approve of bestiality?
Remember that consent is much more a legal than a practical definition, and it's not unfeasible to create some type of consent laws in regards to animals, as consent is not limited to verbal communications. Consider the dog who rolls over when petted, would that not constitute consent?

And finally, for those accusers who show little knowledge by calling bestiality rape. It is LEGALLY IMPOSSIBLE for bestiality to be classified as rape.
Consider the Californian statutory penal code SECTION 261-269. It starts with
"Rape is an act of sexual intercourse accomplished with a
person not the spouse of the perpetrator, under any of the following
circumstances:" *feel free to view the rest http://davismaar.org/definition.htm

notice the requirement of a person, and most states have something similar to this effect. For this very same reason one who kills a cat can not legally be charged with a homicide even though a killing occurred, because a homicide MUST occur between a human being.

If you're trolling, you're retarded.

If you're serious, you're also retarded.

The reasons used to bash bestiality don't apply to homosexuality. Totally separate issues. The only thing they have in common is that they grind against societal norms. You can't use the same argument against all things against the norm, especially regarding rape. Logic-fail on your behalf.

An animal that rolls over on its back may just want you to pet it. It doesn't mean it's giving you consent for sex. Besides, how is an animal going to let the authorities know it's been raped? An animal cannot speak, nor can it articulately communicate with a human -- it's on a completely different plane of understanding and communication. Any signal an animal gives can be interpreted in various ways. This isn't really even worthy of discussion. An animal can't give consent.

Rape is engaging in sexual activity with someone through force or under duress. Mental ability is one of the most important criteria for consent laws, because it determines who can give consent and who cannot. If you get rid of that so you can have sex with animals, you also get rid of the one thing that keeps minors or the mentally impaired from giving consent. This is also the reason why having sex with someone who's vastly intoxicated is considered rape -- they're not mentally capable of verbally giving/withholding consent much of the time.

Where it gets interesting though: Why allow murder of animals for food processing but not rape?

devonin 11-10-2009 09:21 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Where it gets interesting though: Why allow murder of animals for food processing but not rape?
Issues specifically with factory farm practices aside, farm animals don't suffer. They live a peaceful life, eating food, chilling out, and then suddenly -bam- dead, and eaten.

As they don't suffer (Again, issues with factory farms specifically, aside) it is not considered morally wrong to kill them for food.

MrRubix 11-10-2009 09:26 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by devonin (Post 3285292)
Issues specifically with factory farm practices aside, farm animals don't suffer. They live a peaceful life, eating food, chilling out, and then suddenly -bam- dead, and eaten.

As they don't suffer (Again, issues with factory farms specifically, aside) it is not considered morally wrong to kill them for food.

I understand this -- what I mean is that it's never considered lawful, for instance, to kill a human for food by the logic of "They didn't suffer." We say it's okay to raise and kill animals for food, but say it's not okay to do this with humans. Similarly, we say it's not okay to rape animals, and it's also not okay to do this with humans.

Basically just posing a question between human and animal rights and asking why you all think we say one thing is okay but another is not.

(I have my own answer to this, but just wanted to see what you all thought)

MrGiggles 11-10-2009 09:34 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
I always figured that since we can't tell for sure what other animals want/don't want, but we CAN tell what humans want/don't want, it would probably be more sensible to give much less consideration to the feelings of animals. You know? Might as well go with what you know.

That probably sounds kinda cold and inhumane, yeah, but still. I figure that's part of the reasoning behind not raising and killing humans for food.

Afrobean 11-10-2009 09:35 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3285284)
Not sure if you're hashing your own argument or someone else's...

Was playing devil's advocate to give an example of an argument which isn't based on religion.

I'm pretty much neutral to the whole gay parents thing, although I can see it makes sense to avoid it. It's got to be weird as **** for the kid in social situations, like if friends come over or something. A friend of mine, his mom divorced his dad and ended up with another woman. And I never thought much of it, but if I had met him when I was like 6 and had experienced the same thing back then, I think I might have been weirded out by it and been overly judgmental.

bobeck 11-10-2009 09:52 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3285284)
The reasons used to bash bestiality don't apply to homosexuality. Totally separate issues.

The only issues I've heard from you that bashes bestiality is consent in regards to rape (If its even possible to rape an animal) which I have already addressed. Further, I fail to comprehend why you don't understand that I am not saying homosexuality and bestiality are the same. Homosexuality and bestiality are separate and distinct acts yet can be justified by the same reasons.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3285284)
An animal that rolls over on its back may just want you to pet it. It doesn't mean it's giving you consent for sex..... Any signal an animal gives can be interpreted in various ways..... An animal can't give consent.

So the person who argues that animals can't give consent then decides that an animal who rolls on its back wants to bet petted, but not have sex? I thought it was impossible for you to interpret the signals of animals.

Further, why then are we not charged with a battery every time a person pets a dog? After all, a battery is basically the touching of a person without consent. So, since a dog hasn't given explicit consent to be touched we shouldn't be able to pet it. (I am intentionally over looking the fact that one again battery this only applies to a person)

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3285284)
Rape is engaging in sexual activity with someone through force or under duress. Mental ability is one of the most important criteria for consent laws, because it determines who can give consent and who cannot. If you get rid of that so you can have sex with animals, you also get rid of the one thing that keeps minors or the mentally impaired from giving consent. This is also the reason why having sex with someone who's vastly intoxicated is considered rape -- they're not mentally capable of verbally giving/withholding consent much of the time.

Why are you applying laws made to affect humans on animals? For the last time, it's impossible to commit rape on an animal because by definition rape requires two (or more) human beings. Even your rudimentary definition of rape included the word "Someone''. If consent is a subset of rape, and Rape is now out of the picture in regards to animals, why are you continually hounding on the issue of consent?

MrRubix 11-10-2009 09:53 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
bobeck, your lack of ability regarding reading comprehension is astounding.

bobeck 11-10-2009 10:02 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MrRubix (Post 3285310)
bobeck, your lack of ability regarding reading comprehension is astounding.

What's astounding is your relegation of this issue to personal attacks. (Yes, I realize this statement makes me hypocritical)

MrRubix 11-10-2009 10:02 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Afrobean (Post 3285303)
Was playing devil's advocate to give an example of an argument which isn't based on religion.

I'm pretty much neutral to the whole gay parents thing, although I can see it makes sense to avoid it. It's got to be weird as **** for the kid in social situations, like if friends come over or something. A friend of mine, his mom divorced his dad and ended up with another woman. And I never thought much of it, but if I had met him when I was like 6 and had experienced the same thing back then, I think I might have been weirded out by it and been overly judgmental.

Maybe it would have weirded you out, but only because it wasn't the norm. The only way to not find it weird is to see it happen more often. Think of all the kids who could find homes if gay couples were allowed to adopt in addition to heterosexual couples? Certainly better than no home at all.

MrRubix 11-10-2009 10:05 PM

Re: Is it wrong to be gay?
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bobeck (Post 3285315)
What's astounding is your relegation of this issue to personal attacks. (Yes, I realize this statement makes me hypocritical)

I don't mind attacking someone if they're trolling/retarded beyond belief. You're either one or the other.


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