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bballa48 12-22-2012 04:22 PM

Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I have been thinking about the 1-99 scale recently (yes, I am a loser, I get it).

I feel like we aren't using the upper section of the scale (80+) effectively. We have the hardest "real" files sitting in around 92-93. Then we have DP and RATO at 95 and 96. I think we can all agree these two are complete dump files. The only other files above 92 are:
Metro (93, easily the most "legit" file in this section)
Revolutionary Etude: (93, piece of crap file)
Party 4u (94, another piece of crap joke file)

So, other than 2 dumps, 2 joke files, and one "real" file, 93-99 is uncharted territory. (unless VROFL is a 99, which I assume it is)

My proposition, then, is this: DP and RATO are 98 and 99 (or both 99s, they play the same to me). Anything worse than those two files honestly shouldn't be in the game, but if it is, just make it a 99 or ??.

Then, we can slide up other files to smooth things out. I feel like a ton of files in the 80s are crammed into difficulties because there isn't enough space. Think about [Rain]. The file is incredibly difficult, yet we couldn't pull the trigger on making it an 87 because all the 87s are so complex/awkward. That seems silly, because to me it is WAY harder than every other 86.

Here are some other examples:

12 Bar Bloops 82 --> 83
Integraation 81 -->82
Molto and GGC 83 -->84
Hardkore Atomic 84 --> 85 (maybe... not sure how other people feel about this file)
Move the hardest 85s up to 86 (Rage Template, Xantha, RAN?)
Most of the 86s up to 87 except Music (For Kirby), RWOB (maybe?), and probably Kirlian Shores. I would argue RAIN should go up to 88.

Now we can start sliding the remaining 87s way up. FREEDOM Dive should stay 87 probably. Grind an Grist 88s for sure. La Camp 89, maybe 90. Scrap and Schmollbluk 88s, maybe 89s. Devour probably 88.

Then we can slide 88s up: Eclipse up to 89, Jai Envie 90, Slashmaid 90, CCCP 90. Something like that, obviously some people will feel differently about which of these is hardest.

89s need to move quite a bit. AT up to 92. M8Bit up to 91. AQD feels like a 90, maybe 91. Vortex 90.

90s: Extratone 93. WWE 92. System Doctor 91. Husigi 93 or 94.

91s: TWWW and Crowdpleaser should be ??. Can't quite decide about Crowdpleaser whether to go the ?? route. It would work at 93-94 as well. Jamais Vu 94.

92s: Do I smile up to 95, Rave7 up to 96 (maybe flip these)

The rest: Put Metro at 96. Revo either ?? or 97.

We could move a lot more of the lower 80s around as well, but I didn't want to go through all of them and interject too much subjectivity.

Thoughts? Don't get bogged down too much on the individual difficulties, as I realize I am but one opinion. Instead, focus on the overarching theme of expanding the upper tier.

One Winged Angel 01-9-2013 01:41 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Alright, let's discuss this hehe...

Way back when stavie and I were first beginning to rerate everything, I noticed that the upper end of the difficulty spectrum didn't really have a lot of room to breathe. I was told vrofl would be sitting at 99 on the new scale, and of course, to compensate for how much more difficult vrofl is than anything else in game, the ratings of all other files needed to be pushed further down in order to reflect this. I didn't really like this, but it's what was planned to be done, so I didn't argue at the time.

However, I did suggest that the old 9s should start much lower than where they were planned to start, which was 50. I didn't really see the need for old 1-8s to take up half the difficulty spectrum considering how the higher difficulties (especially FMO+) covered far greater of a difficulty spread. FGO alone could easily be segmented into three sublevels that would make sense to most players. In any case, Jae was a bit reluctant to start old 9s down at 40, so 45/46 was the compromise made.

...but now we still have this problem at the upper end lmao

SO...

Speedy Singapore and I came up with this list, excluding vrofl from the 1-99 and giving it a rating of ?? or something similar. It's not finalized or anything, so don't freak out if you guys don't agree with the way we segmented the new FGO tiers. But what do you guys think of this?

Code:

    99:
    Reluctantly Accepting Temporary Overexhaustion
   
    98:
    Death Piano
   
    96:
    Metro
    Revolutionary Etude
   
    95:
    do i smile?
    Rave7
   
    94:
    Crowdpleaser
    Husigi Usagi Milk Tei
    Winter Wind Etude
   
    93:
    Extratone Pirates
    Jamais Vu
   
    92:
    A Quick Death
    System Doctor
    White Walls, Part 2
   
    91:
    Almost There
    Magical 8bit Tour
   
    90:
    J'ai Envie de Plaisir X2
    Schmollbluk
    Slashmaid (Instrumental)
   
    89:
    Counter Clockwise Chant Pattern
    Eclipse (Solar)
    grind2
    Grist
    La Campanella
    Scrap Syndrome
   
    88:
    DeVouR
    FREEDOM DiVE
    Here We Go
    Rain [YMCK]
    Vortex
    Xanthystrauma
   
    87:
    Chik Habit
    Kirlian Shores
    Music (For Kirby)
    Rage Template
    Red Wings Over Baron
    St. Scarhand
    Tell v3 (Extended Mix)
   
    86:
    Canary Part V
    My Half
    One Minute Waltz
    Pandora
    Piano Etude (Demon Fire) [Oni]
    Phi-dentity Crisis
    Zombie Sunset
   
    85:
    Breakbeat Acid
    Hero Reconsidering
    Mathsma Attack
    Milky Blue
    Molto Vivace
    RAN
    Rock Rock Rock (t+pazolite remix)
   
    84:
    ==Planet KARMA==
    12 Bar Bloops
    A Kidney Stone
    Hardkore Atomic
    Mourning the Lost
    Necropotence
    Saddest RMX
    Storm Raid Battle
    STRAWBERRY SWEETZ
    White Walls, Part 1
 
    83:
    Betrayal
    Grand Galop Chromatique
    I Hate The 80s
    Lawn Wake II
    Little God Ch@nnel
    Sleepmix Strikes Back
    Tenimuhou
   
    82:
    11ELEVEN
    Blue Rose
    Ehhen Doyadosu? Tengujiman
    Electro Rush X8 v2
    Integraation
    World End's Yama Xanadu
   
    81:
    Across Rooftops
    Coactive [Over My Shoulder Mix]
    Einstein-Rosen Bridge
    Halcyon [xi]
    Holy Orders
    Mephisto Waltz
    mutant corecore
    Shotgun Surgery
    Tageri
   
    80:
    Gunkienen Tarusuigin
    Ketsarku Mozgalom
    Love and Justice
    Jamais Deux
    Nomina Nuda Tenemus
    Unicron Barbeque
    The Bird's Concrete Nosedive
   
    79:
    honki sentai majirenjaa -MAJI eurobeat version-
    Magical Higan Tour 2009
    NaiNai 69
    Pants
    Reality
    The Bird's Poisoned Bathwater
   
    78:
    BEER
    Level Skip
    (everything else)
   
    unrated:
   
    TWWW, p4u v1, vrofl

p.s. Eze, I moved some stuff around yet again (msg me if you wanna know specifics) don't h8 me pls

p.p.s. A++ thread bballa, I'm glad we have a reason to fix this now (inlove)
sorry it took a bit longer than I told you it would to unlock this btw

Updates to the list:

Shotgun Surgery [80 -> 81]
Holy Orders [80 -> 81]
11Eleven [81 -> 82]
Coactive [82 -> 81]
STRAWBERRY SWEETZ [83 -> 84]
White Walls, Part 1 [83 -> 84]
Storm Raid Battle [85 -> 84]
Eclipse [90 -> 89]
CCCP [90 -> 89]
Vortex [91 -> 88]
Husigi [93 -> 94]
Jamais Vu [94 -> 93]

SK8R43 01-9-2013 01:46 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I actually really like this idea and that list that Rob came up with. I think they really are all squished and should have more room to breathe as well. vROFL should definitely not be on the 1-99 scale and should be ?? or something and then the rest can come up from there. Very solid Idea! +1

TC_Halogen 01-9-2013 02:16 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
The issue that I have with this is that the expansion of the current scale leaves no room for things that might be slightly more difficult than what's listed in each corresponding difficulty level. If we come up with a song that is considerably harder than something in difficulty n-1 but easier than something in difficulty n, ratings will become somewhat disproportionate again.

I'm not opposed to the list, I'm just wary about filling in spaces that could be used later, haha.

One Winged Angel 01-9-2013 02:27 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Well that's an issue that exists regardless of the expansion haha, although I agree that this issue becomes increasingly problematic when there's fewer songs per sublevel. However, I think the benefits of better utilization for difficulties 88+ outweighs this. Filling out the upper echelon of songs over a wider spread looks much nicer, and the high FGO section (87+) as it currently sits in game really warrants the need to be stretched out.

TC_Halogen 01-9-2013 02:43 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Fair enough.

A few changes I personally would like to suggest:

Jamais Vu: 94 -> 93
Husigi: 93 -> 94

Essentially, switching these two for the sake of structure comparison/overall scoring difficulty. For the highest tier players, Husigi is a bit tougher to score on/FC, and to those that aren't retarded at FFR, respectable mashing (thanks to tough jack/burst placement) doesn't even get the job done.

Jamais Vu is a bit smoother, as well.

Almost There: 91 -> 92 (or Magical 8Bit Tour: 91 -> 90)

Seeing AT with M8BT doesn't fit with me simply because M8BT's trills are slower, contain less one-handed garbage, and are considerably shorter in stream length.

With the range being expanded, you could also afford changes like this...
World's End Yama Xanadu: 82 -> 83
Shotgun Surgery: 80 -> 81

...where the overall scale expansion could lead to a slight increase of value for longer songs that have extremes further in (in essence, just proportioning the overall increase).

List looks pretty solid, though.

popsicle_3000 01-9-2013 02:50 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3831289)
I'm not opposed to the list, I'm just wary about filling in spaces that could be used later, haha.

we could leave 99 unfilled. so RATO is 98, DP 97, etc...

TC_Halogen 01-9-2013 02:59 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popsicle_3000 (Post 3831310)
we could leave 99 unfilled. so RATO is 98, DP 97, etc...

Not a bad idea, but we're essentially lowering the overall threshold that a "serious" file can be placed in, similar to how it is currently with RATO/DP at 96/95 respectively.

The problem that I presented was a theoretically avoidable one, but it did leave some discussion as to what could be done to remedy it, and OWA answered exactly as I hoped. Maximizing the amount of space within the FGO/FSO territory allows the scale to shine in separating files that are drastically more difficult, within the same level. At this point, I'm happy to see Schmollbluk be considered out of the 87 range, because it presents the most brutal burst patterns out of any FGO due to incredibly rigid transitions in and out of jumptrills. It also (to me), doesn't compare to the other 87s in the area, which (for the most part) are comparably more tame, or lack extremes as difficult as Schmollbluk.

It fits -perfectly- in the current list, in my opinion.

bmah 01-9-2013 03:09 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by popsicle_3000 (Post 3831310)
we could leave 99 unfilled. so RATO is 98, DP 97, etc...

Honestly? I'd prefer RATO to be difficulty 99 with Vertex beta vrofl being an undefined difficulty of "???" - a variable in the difficulty parameter that maybe Velocity could add. Because right now, vrofl (and RATO to a less degreee) are on the 1-99 difficulty list and, as OWA implies, is skewing the difficulty scale a lot on the higher end.

Basically, vrofl shouldn't even exist on the 1-99 scale at all. And I certainly don't think anyone would want a file that's a notch above RATO anyhow. I'm thinking that even RATO might be way above anything below it, and am tempted to also put that as a "???"-difficulty file.

TC_Halogen 01-9-2013 03:11 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
My only opposition to putting RATO as "???" rating is that it's a ranked file.

popsicle_3000 01-9-2013 03:13 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
i'm alright w/ RATO being 99 then. makes sense

edit: it has been over 4 years now that it was released, and no song in game has come close to it in dif...

bmah 01-9-2013 03:18 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3831328)
My only opposition to putting RATO as "???" rating is that it's a ranked file.

Oh good point. IMO putting RATO as a ranked file was the main mistake in the first place, but I doubt it'd be converted into a token at this point, even if the token is easily attainable. I wonder how many people would dispute that...

EzExZeRo7497 01-9-2013 04:19 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Sweet, this thread is approved lmao.

Yeah the list looks pretty solid Rob, thanks for posting it :]

Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3831304)
Jamais Vu: 94 -> 93
Husigi: 93 -> 94

I was actually considering of placing Husigi higher than Jamais Vu, but Jamais Vu is one of those files that you can either have the speed for it or you don't. I can't really judge the file without ridiculous bias, and I see far better scores on Husigi than Jamais Vu anyway. I wouldn't mind seeing Husigi higher than Jamais Vu though.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3831304)
Almost There: 91 -> 92 (or Magical 8Bit Tour: 91 -> 90)

I feel that the trill section in AT and M8T are equally hard. Despite being around ~20 BPM slower, I find Magical 8bit Tour's patterns a lot worse compared to Almost There to not just AAA, but to score on as well.

Also another thing, M8T has harder sections outside the hard section compared to Almost There's easier sections, and although the difficulty of the file outside it is much easier compared to the trill section, it does cause a lot more nerves compared to AT.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen (Post 3831304)
World's End Yama Xanadu: 82 -> 83
Shotgun Surgery: 80 -> 81

I agree with those two, length should be a bigger factor than before with that difficulty list now.

Also I think RATO should stay as the hardest file that doesn't have a "??" difficulty. I don't think there would be any file harder than RATO, and it's not really much harder compared to Death Piano.

ps great thread bballa

DossarLX ODI 01-9-2013 08:40 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
TWWW, p4u v1, and vrofl being unrated ?? I can agree with since those are tokens and they mess up the difficulty scales hard (TWWW having a ridiculous spike at the end, p4u having zeroframers that make it go over Death Piano physically, and vrofl being uncomparable to everything else).

Before I go into the ratings OWA posted, does this mean 90+ is still the 13 border and 77-89 is 12? (talking old scale here)

EzExZeRo7497 01-9-2013 08:49 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
We haven't really discussed about the borders yet, so I'm not sure actually.

Pseudo Enigma 01-9-2013 09:11 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
just make vROFL a 100 to make it seem more bizarre. Nothing is weirder than the only triple digit song.

Making it beyond double digits would imply it has gone farther than any song in terms of difficulty, and indeed it does. It's un AAA'able, and un FC'able for most.

Idk if putting a song into the triple digits would fuck with anything but w/e.

Poison- 01-9-2013 09:23 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel (Post 3831270)

Code:

    99:
    Reluctantly Accepting Temporary Overexhaustion
   
    98:
    Death Piano
   
    96:
    Metro
    Revolutionary Etude
   
    95:
    do i smile?
    Rave7
   
    94:
    Crowdpleaser
    Winter Wind Etude
    Jamais Vu
   
    93:
    Husigi Usagi Milk Tei
    Extratone Pirates
   
    92:
    A Quick Death
    System Doctor
    White Walls, Part 2
   
    91:
    Almost There
    Magical 8bit Tour
    Vortex
   
    90:
    Counter Clockwise Chant Pattern
    Eclipse (Solar)
    J'ai Envie de Plaisir X2
    Schmollbluk
    Slashmaid (Instrumental)
   
    89:
    grind2
    Grist
    La Campanella
    Scrap Syndrome
   
    88:
    DeVouR
    FREEDOM DiVE
    Here We Go
    Rain [YMCK]
    Xanthystrauma
   
    87:
    Chik Habit
    Kirlian Shores
    Music (For Kirby)
    Rage Template
    Red Wings Over Baron
    St. Scarhand
    Tell v3 (Extended Mix)
   
    86:
    Canary Part V
    My Half
    One Minute Waltz
    Pandora
    Piano Etude (Demon Fire) [Oni]
    Phi-dentity Crisis
    Zombie Sunset
   
    85:
    Breakbeat Acid
    Hero Reconsidering
    Mathsma Attack
    Milky Blue
    Molto Vivace
    RAN
    Rock Rock Rock (t+pazolite remix)
    Storm Raid Battle
   
    84:
    ==Planet KARMA==
    12 Bar Bloops
    A Kidney Stone
    Betrayal
    Hardkore Atomic
    Little God Ch@nnel
    Mourning the Lost
    Necropotence
    Saddest RMX
   
    83:
    Grand Galop Chromatique
    I Hate The 80s
    Lawn Wake II
    Sleepmix Strikes Back
    STRAWBERRY SWEETZ
    Tenimuhou
    White Walls, Part 1
   
    82:
    Blue Rose
    Coactive [Over My Shoulder Mix]
    Ehhen Doyadosu? Tengujiman
    Electro Rush X8 v2
    Integraation
    World's End Yama Xanadu
   
    81:
    11ELEVEN
    Across Rooftops
    Einstein-Rosen Bridge
    Halcyon [xi]
    Mephisto Waltz
    mutant corecore
    Tageri
    Unicron Barbeque
   
    80:
    Gunkienen Tarusuigin
    Holy Orders
    Ketsarku Mozgalom
    Love and Justice
    Jamais Deux
    Nomina Nuda Tenemus
    The Bird's Concrete Nosedive
    Shotgun Surgery
   
    79:
    honki sentai majirenjaa -MAJI eurobeat version-
    Magical Higan Tour 2009
    NaiNai 69
    Pants
    Reality
    The Bird's Poisoned Bathwater
   
    78:
    BEER
    Level Skip
    (everything else)
   
    unrated:
   
    TWWW, p4u v1, vrofl


A lot of this stuff looks really good, honestly. Although if it were up to me, I would be moving Eclipse down, and not up.

I'm curious to know any other changes you've made to this list, and I'd be happy to add another opinion into the mix (although I CLEARLY can't play the higher difficulty files like you guys can)

Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3831332)
Oh good point. IMO putting RATO as a ranked file was the main mistake in the first place, but I doubt it'd be converted into a token at this point, even if the token is easily attainable. I wonder how many people would dispute that...

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with moving it to a token. As long as it isn't hard to get (only since it's been public for so long already). I wouldn't argue with DP getting changed to a token either. They really screw up the difficulty scale of the public files in my opinion.

stavie33 01-9-2013 10:20 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I agree with nearly everything said in this thread. The upper areas of modern FGO's are way too squished together, and that gap in the 90's needs to be filled. I've always been for making vrofl a ???, because even with RATO at 96, vrofl and 99 is not a big enough jump. Like the joke file it is, vrofl should have no rating, and RATO should be 99, mainly because there should NEVER be a file harder than RATO let into this game. It is a dump file, and I hope to never see another file dumpier, or harder than it. Therefore it should be the limit, 99, and everything else filled out inbetween. I like OWA's scale, and I like your ideas as well bb, but we'd have to look at where to stretch out certain songs, I personally don't find Rain that much harder than other 86's.

ssbmchamp 01-9-2013 10:55 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I'm a little confused with this whole "no room for movement" discussion. the scale goes from 1-99. 99 means hardest song in the game, A.K.A. VROFL. Perfect that fits. Then make RATO a 98 because it's the second most difficult file in the game (and the only one with a difficulty range in that level) Since I don't foresee any other future files being as difficult as VROFL, this to me means every new file would be 1-98. If a new file as difficult as RATO comes out you would make it a 98 also. I just feel as though you guys are just complicating things way more than they need to be. The problem here seems to be that you guys are worried about VROFL being in it's own category (which I understand that since nothing else compares BUT, it's still the hardest in the game which is why it needs to stay at 99) You already have a great rating system in place so just use that and adjust accordingly. If you're still worried about it that much why not make the rating system go from 1-105....at least that way you could show the huge gap between VROFL and RATO, and it would give you more room for movement.

bballa48 01-9-2013 11:33 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ssbmchamp (Post 3831502)
I'm a little confused with this whole "no room for movement" discussion. the scale goes from 1-99. 99 means hardest song in the game, A.K.A. VROFL. Perfect that fits. Then make RATO a 98 because it's the second most difficult file in the game (and the only one with a difficulty range in that level) Since I don't foresee any other future files being as difficult as VROFL, this to me means every new file would be 1-98. If a new file as difficult as RATO comes out you would make it a 98 also. I just feel as though you guys are just complicating things way more than they need to be. The problem here seems to be that you guys are worried about VROFL being in it's own category (which I understand that since nothing else compares BUT, it's still the hardest in the game which is why it needs to stay at 99) You already have a great rating system in place so just use that and adjust accordingly. If you're still worried about it that much why not make the rating system go from 1-105....at least that way you could show the huge gap between VROFL and RATO, and it would give you more room for movement.

RATO being 98 and VROFL being 99 makes no sense. The score gaps between the two songs are MASSIVE.

Also, Rob I REALLY like your list. Overall, you pretty much nailed everything in a far more objective manner than I did.

One thing I saw though....

Anyone else think 11ELEVEN should slide up into the 82s? At the very least it should before Coactive, IMO.


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