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the sun fan 10-18-2020 11:24 PM

On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
For many years, FFR has been a place where I truly believe that someone can become a top-tier forum player on. I have considered it a very high point of my pride, going so far as to sig the fact that FFR has had the highest success rate of any internet forum/community in mafia champ games. I have believed that the game, at its core, is very emotional and as such, insults and personal attacks are just part of the game. I think that, if I had really thought about it, that I would justify the personal aspect of the game as being necessary. I speak not only for myself when I say that I think that this is no longer the case.

I think that there is room for very, very competitive games while also being more respectful to one another than we have been over these years. Its bad for growing the community is one important aspect, and I know the counterargument is to say that "if people get upset in their first game, they're probably not cut out for TWG." I think that there is less truth to this statement than might appear. If the community has standards of decency that are consistently upheld, then necessarily, the newer players will feel more comfortable.

I know this is not a unanimously agreed point, but I do think we, at the very least, should talk formally about whether or not we should reduce the toxicity in games.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Regardless, I would like another TWG sub forum moderator. I'm not sure how best to choose this person, and would like input on this matter as well.

T-Force 10-18-2020 11:33 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
The more I ruminate on it, I think that one of the reasons I've come to enjoy playing games when I do, it's when I don't have to worry as much about whats going to be said about me or my play.
I can dish out as much as I receive, but there's a point where in-game can reach out and touch my anger points outside of the game and that's maybe as much a personal flaw as it is those I'm playing with -- see the last turbo I played in -- but I do agree that we can afford to be at least more respectful and mindful that people behind these usernames and avatars are people. They're friends.

Ultimately we're here to have a good time and there are ways to play that don't rely on dragging our friends through the muck in order to make ourselves look, or feel, an iota better.

My 2c. Hope it makes sense.


EDIT: Maybe we could give post-game threads some time before going up just so we can all chill before flaming in those threads? They're meant for constructive criticism, not to just spew emotional vitriol.

flashflash account 10-18-2020 11:50 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
one place where I'd absolutely draw the line is postgame

we should all try to be supportive of each other and good sports during postgame, and focus on our own mistakes for people who want to improve

the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating is the worst part of postgame and there's no excuse for it

flaming in a game is whatever although I'm a little bit taken aback when someone wishes to smash another's head open with a brick to "see if anything comes out the ears", even in jest

inDheart 10-18-2020 11:59 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i want the current twg mods to seek out another tbh. kick names around like it's a twg or something

i don't think postgame thread timing matters because if it goes up late people just find other ways to postgame

XelNya 10-19-2020 12:01 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Alright before I actually post, what are we specifically trying to target to reduce toxicity?

We barely have hard tunnel games.
No one actually bullies anyone.
People get a bit heated and say some stuff with “them there curse words.”
No one intentionally hard throws games on purpose.

Like in short, does anyone really wanna state an actual problem and not be vague?

I want to make sure my contribution is as accurate, because frankly I don’t see an actual problem, just a loose, open to interpretation ass hole of conceptual shit.

Like I am asking because I don’t see anything I’d specifically class as “toxic” but my bars are heavily shifted from most of you.

flashflash account 10-19-2020 12:25 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4747440)
Like in short, does anyone really wanna state an actual problem and not be vague?

"the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating are the worst part of postgame"

do you think it's not that bad?

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 02:35 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I'm with Xel on this one: define toxicity for me.

From what I can gather the issue seems to be that the language/swearing is being interrupted as personal/threatening [edit: as in, close to IRL threatening or at least threatening outside the confines of the game ]

If this isn't accurate or there's more to it then that, I'd like that clarified before commenting further.

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 02:36 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4747443)
"the hot dog measuring contests and scapegoating are the worst part of postgame"

do you think it's not that bad?

I don't think the complaints are about what happens in post game, so no.

Bolth mannn 10-19-2020 03:06 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747456)
I'm with Xel on this one: define toxicity for me.

From what I can gather the issue seems to be that the language/swearing is being interrupted as personal/threatening [edit: as in, close to IRL threatening or at least threatening outside the confines of the game ]

If this isn't accurate or there's more to it then that, I'd like that clarified before commenting further.

“That makes no sense because I was the first to vote for Tony at yesterday’s EoD”

Vs

“No you absolute waste of human space are you fucking dense? I was the first to vote for Tony, why would I do that as scum you fucking dolt”

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 03:37 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Oh people have given me examples before I'm good on that.

I'm asking for a definition so we can have a deeper conversation then our standard "be nice in a game about not being nice" discussions.

Bolth mannn 10-19-2020 03:46 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I’m not arguing for a strict rule/line about what is considered too toxic, TWG is a social game and things get heated, that’s fine. My example is the difference between someone making the choice to be verbally abusive/aggressive and condescending verses not being so, and at the end of the day, that’s where I think the problem lies.

Bolth mannn 10-19-2020 03:47 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
And I would argue TWG shouldn’t be defined as a game about not being nice, it’s about problem solving, deduction skills and lying

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 03:54 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747463)
I’m not arguing for a strict rule/line about what is considered too toxic

Ok but it seems to be why this thread was made

Quote:

Originally Posted by the sun fan (Post 4747430)
I think we can all agree that we have not been enforcing where the line is, and maybe we ought to begin doing that

So I feel I'm not out of line discussing it in those terms.
You're also missing my point about the definition of what TWG is. I don't think you and a lot of people who have voiced this stance before are being as clear as you might think

It's 3am so if there's anything for me to respond to I'll do it later.

Bolth mannn 10-19-2020 04:05 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747465)
Ok but it seems to be why this thread was made



So I feel I'm not out of line discussing it in those terms.
You're also missing my point about the definition of what TWG is. I don't think you and a lot of people who have voiced this stance before are being as clear as you might think

It's 3am so if there's anything for me to respond to I'll do it later.

Regardless of why this thread was created, banning certain words/phrases/slurs is not going to fix anything.

There are members of this community that are verbally abusive/aggressive and condescending when they play. THAT, in my opinion, is the issue, and it’s unlikey to be fixed by some sort of modification of the rules.

_Zenith_ 10-19-2020 04:15 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I think there's clauses of gray areas regarding the subject, and speaking formally about it here, none of the actives have actively bullied or ridiculed an individual in ad hominem fashion to me. The gray area is town having the right to be frustrated at a self-destructive town game or pool, however saying "you're an idiot" should probably be stated like "that was a poor play" because people view that as a personal jest rather than a comment about what happened with poor wording (which is what I did to bug in the most recent game because I really needed him to read Cedo as a wolf and he flipped on me lol).

The last seriously toxic moment I've witnessed in FFRTWG in the last few months was when that Adam guy played with us that one game and I had to sub his slot. He said some really fucked up things and that's inexcusable. Other than that instance, I can't recall a situation that was a fraction as toxic as that event.

There's multiple lines to draw here moving forward, and I think one of the first ones would be dealing with frustration as a whole, or installing some countermeasure to excessive demeanor like repeatedly attacking someone's character rather than keeping discussion game-based. There's a lot of confusion about someone being frustrated but it being taken as toxicity, which I have to agree with defining toxicity withing TWG itself. I think that would be a good first step.

I also agree that post-game should be more about sportsmanship rather than highlighting what went wrong or bashing on any particular team for losing in any given way. There's not enough praise given when players deserve it, and we have some absolutely strong players and promising up-and-comers.

I could continue this, but I feel like I'm dragging this along more than it needed to be, and I apologize if some things I said made little sense, but I'm glad to see even an attempt at figuring out as a collective whole means to improve the community and the matches moving forward.

Charu 10-19-2020 05:48 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Yeah, this is probably one of the biggest reason why I stopped.

The other because I've done it myself and I don't wish to bad mouth anyone. I think I've been good about moderating myself the last few times I played, but meh.

Also just seeing the same type of crud on others mafia sites or spinoffs (ToS, Among us, ect) makes me believe there's really no avoiding it since the games at its core is all about lying and trying to clear yourself. It doesn't help that innocent players, when being pinned with being guilty for what they believe to be a "stupid" reason, are of course going to not think fondly of everyone accused.

Then there's the issue of when I see actual guilty players use this as a means to win. By name calling, attacking someone's thinking, ect. Like I said, I've done this before when I was considered a good wolf. It's... not right. I nor anyone should do that to get a win. It's playing dirty.

...

Was the last game that toxic? I didn't watch the game, lmao

Charu 10-19-2020 06:36 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I guess I should expand, time for shower thoughts (literally as I type this)

The act of name calling or challenging someone's logic isn't the issue. It's how players go about it at an extreme negative angle to purposely provoke a player.

For example...

"The hell are you talking about? I've explained why I believe (player) is (guilty/notguilty) if you look at my previous posts!?"

To...

"What the fuck are you talking about you fucking moron? I've explained why I believe (player) is (guilty/notguilty) multiple fucking times. Learn how to read dipshit or stop being bad at the game."

Both convey the same message, but its pretty clear which one is intended to provoke a player negatively.

Bolth mannn 10-19-2020 06:38 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Agreed^

Charu 10-19-2020 06:46 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
And for some people... That's just who they are, and I get it.

I might post more once I'm settled at work, lol

Charu 10-19-2020 07:59 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Alright, now I'm on a keyboard at work, uh oh!

The "solution" to toxicity isn't some kind of rule that would make the problem go away. It's tied to player personality and as such, that's why I made a point about how some are just like that and it's in their normal dialect. I think censoring in general is a big no-no because it restricts who they are.

What I DO propose though is have players do what I've done in my last few games if this thread was made because someone insulted a player.

Moderate themselves accordingly. Or try to...

Read the post back and determine if your flavored post is attacking someone on a personal level. Leave in the curses and swearing and what have you, if the player finds that offensive, then that's their fault and not yours.

So that example above?

Quote:

"What the fuck are you talking about you fucking moron? I've explained why I believe (player) is (guilty/notguilty) multiple fucking times. Learn how to read dipshit or stop being bad at the game."
Knock it down to this.

Quote:

"What the fuck are you talking about? I've explained why I believe (player) is (guilty/notguilty) multiple fucking times. Please read my posts!"
It still gives that bite, but now you're not insulting the player. If the player feels insulted after that, then it's on them and not you.

mellonxcollie 10-19-2020 08:12 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
what about every time you want to use an insult you instead sub in a funny word like Gordon Ramsey

"you fucking donkey!" "you friggin donut!"

Charu 10-19-2020 08:21 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
However, emotion is a big part in these kind of games. When it gets tense, it gets TENSE. Size 4 and bold and everything! It's really really REALLY easy to forget to moderate yourself in critical moments. It's also really really REALLY easy to feel offended even if a particular bite-y post was not assaulting your abilities. Like the above example, it can still feel like you're insulting someone's reading comprehension indirectly, which majority of the time they DID feel like that anyways after "moderating".

Unfortunately there's no fix for that. If the person you're replying to interprets it as such, they will no matter what you'll say. You can try to apologize, but no one here is flat out dumb to not know what your intent was.

All in all, the problem will just repeat itself more or less, which is why, once again, I stopped because I can't control someone's emotions and how they speak/type. It's not going to go away, not unless censorship happens and I'll not have that in TWG. Butchering someone's personality just because they're known to be super abrasive and blunt in general.

It's just unfortunate.

Charu 10-19-2020 08:30 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Why am I rambling about this when I haven't even played a single game in over a year (or more now, I don't know)?

I miss playing I guess. If it's not inactives, it's... this issue. I think I went the opposite direction and learned how much of a dick I've been when I was playing this in my heyday. I miss it, but at the same time, I don't like what it brought out of me (or anyone else).

Of course there's other personal reasons, but shhhhhhhhh...

Bolth mannn 10-19-2020 09:20 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Well I think Charu is absolutely right, we’re all here And talking about this in general because we love the game, and it is unfortunate, because I agree that censoring is not the answer. I’d be interested to see what funnygurl has to say about the issue as she mentioned another TWG community elsewhere that toxicity didn’t seem to be present in (in the postgame thread) and I’m curious whether that’s to do with any rules the forums over there might have or if it’s more to do with the different personalities that happen to play over there

inDheart 10-19-2020 09:33 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747480)
what about every time you want to use an insult you instead sub in a funny word like Gordon Ramsey

"you fucking donkey!" "you friggin donut!"

u miserable potato
knife sounds

you can create pressure without it needing to be needly on a personal level (see: other communities not having this problem or trying to shut that shit down when it comes up. like the dark lord potter community all hates each other now because certain people have problems never washing their laundry, etc.). when i play in places where the average age on the site tends to be much younger, they also (ime) tend to have a much lower tolerance threshold for shit, where it's like if i make a reasonably analyzed wall where i conclude that someone's lying, i could get a certain group of friends mad online that i pointed imo reasoned pressure in any direction. there's even a certain kind of player that's not bothered by adam but adam also bothers himself out of some places anyway

so tl;dr i think the question is "is our tolerance level among the regs for personal attacks & the like too high"

i didn't read the game so __________

ig there have been some highly publicized past flare-ups of particular people that felt like they were "dealt with" in that those people got hate and selected themselves away, but question 2 is "is that the proper way to deal with that? should the twg mods do a thing?"

also "do people even bring shit up to the twg mods or do we feel like it's tattling?"

anyway, rolls away

Charu 10-19-2020 09:54 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
People call it getting a thicker skin, but I dunno about that anymore. That was my view as well in my heyday in this game.

There's having a tolerance for trash talk, and then there's knowing that trash talk is detrimental to everyone involved. Having views of both just make the situation more unbearable because you know it's going to happen since it's human nature to get frustrated at someone if you feel they're not doing something you consider to be "right".

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 10:52 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747471)
Was the last game that toxic? I didn't watch the game, lmao

No, but blaming me for being toxic (whatever that term means here) was more preferable to town then admiting their faults.

This whole thread sprang from those accusations and if this is going to just be a call out thread it'll be really cool if people dropped the pretense and just called me out like we're adults.

Charu 10-19-2020 11:01 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747490)
No, but blaming me for being toxic (whatever that term means here) was more preferable to town then admiting their faults.

This whole thread sprang from those accusations and if this is going to just be a call out thread it'll be really cool if people dropped the pretense and just called me out like we're adults.

I actually got curious myself and decided to glance through the game.

...

Besides the other big problem (inactives), the emotional part I was describing was very much in the game that just ended.

The insults could be toned down, for sure. However, your bite-y posts were just that.

Bite-y.

Most of them were anyways. There were some insults here and there, but again, that goes back to the "heat of the moment" spiel. Biggest issue last game from what I glanced was honestly the inactivity more than the toxicity.

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 11:12 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747491)
I actually got curious myself and decided to glance through the game.

...

Besides the other big problem (inactives), the emotional part I was describing was very much in the game that just ended.

The insults could be toned down, for sure. However, your bite-y posts were just that.

Bite-y.

Most of them were anyways. There were some insults here and there, but again, that goes back to the "heat of the moment" spiel. Biggest issue last game from what I glanced was honestly the inactivity more than the toxicity.

Yeah it's probably more me losing my shit in deadchat and people not wanting ti be called out in post more then anything I feel.

Except who knows because no one's really defining quantifiable issues.

I get examples like what you and and Bolth post seem like they're clear but since a lot of it is interpretation anyway (I use to make up insults if you recall, and people legit would get hung up on being called something like bathwater harder then just fucker) it just seems like a pointless circle of debate.

Also maybe this is me taking it too personal but if I'm more toxic again what even does that word mean anyway then any other player it's probably 95% because I actually have a decent post volume and everyone else is slanking. Bug's flip from unsure newbie to arrogance the moment he got cleared would be considered toxic to some people but since he spent the game largely not playing it until the last phase nobody is going to really care.

Charu 10-19-2020 11:33 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
To be fair, I think you were a bit too strong on a new player... the arrogance might've just been a response to it to be honest, lol.

My view of toxicity in TWG (Or games like this) are what I described. Being an aggressive poster does not inherently make you a toxic player. However, just being aggressive has its issues as you know from me and others. Feelings get hurt and whatnot when you may not have intended to hurt feelings (keyword, MAY).

It's just inevitable with that playstyle, there's no changing it outside of forcing yourself to not be yourself.

You're certainly not like Adam boy like inDheart referenced, dohoho.

dAnceguy117 10-19-2020 12:05 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
hey Lar,

I haven't read anything, so feel free to take this with a grain of salt, but I think the fact that you're getting personal with someone who hasn't even posted in a thread named "On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)" - and whose pronouns you haven't made any note of - is worth reflecting on.

mellonxcollie 10-19-2020 12:11 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747492)
Yeah it's probably more me losing my shit in deadchat and people not wanting ti be called out in post more then anything I feel.

Except who knows because no one's really defining quantifiable issues.

isn't deadchat where the dead go to rant though...?

I also thought you were too harsh on bugkid, I brought it up in the game while you were doing it. This might sound weird but I think there is a level of... closeness? that is needed if you are going to get so personal and insulting without it having that negative impact.

Bugkid is new to the forum and relatively new friend to everyone here except Xiz. Meanwhile most of us have played a thousand games and know exactly what each other are like. Bugkid doesn't know that. If you insult me I just shrug it off like "what a very Lar thing to do", but all Bugkid sees is someone being a jerk to them without any context of that person's play style. It's off putting

MixMasterLar 10-19-2020 12:15 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747493)
To be fair, I think you were a bit too strong on a new player... the arrogance might've just been a response to it to be honest, lol.

My view of toxicity in TWG (Or games like this) are what I described. Being an aggressive poster does not inherently make you a toxic player. However, just being aggressive has its issues as you know from me and others. Feelings get hurt and whatnot when you may not have intended to hurt feelings (keyword, MAY).

It's just inevitable with that playstyle, there's no changing it outside of forcing yourself to not be yourself.

You're certainly not like Adam boy like inDheart referenced, dohoho.

Ok cool but that description of toxicity can really only be answered by me making the same response I already have and we've already started a circle.

The only consistant throughline in everyone's definition is that post made them feel victimized and unless the accusation is that people are intentionally victimizing players in the game then that's something largely iut of ny control unless I just adopt a game strategy that involves no pushing and that's honestly half the game. Or more, since when people don't feel pressure they don't play the game instead

As currently described, you're not going to get toned down responses/pushes unless you start a list of banned words like idiot, dolt, fuckface, whatever but everyone doesn't want censorship and since the sin here really is, when you boil the complaints down, people taking it personal and not the words themselves censoring isn't gonna matter.

Like if Airhead is the worst insult I'm allowed to say and I call someone an airhead and they recognize that I used the worst insult that I could, they're still going to get their feelings hurt regardless of what word actually got used.

"Don't use insults", while at least being quantifiable and enforceable, isn't super practical in a game that gets heated by nature (you know with the fact that you're either lying to your friends or know for a fact that if the game is still happening, a friend is lying to you).

Last post on the issue. I've no more to say and frankly this community's repeated unwillingness to actually play the game (inactivity, unwillingness for town to do basic town things like reads, cross examine or vote apparently) make me not want to engage it. Blaming this last game going sideways on me for being angry at Bug is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

Hakulyte 10-19-2020 12:18 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
It feels more like an awareness issue than a real problem to me.
Everyone has their own perspective of how they want to play the game.
I feel like "toxic situations" can happen because one side doesn't understand the other or sometimes both sides are lost at same time.

Is there supposed to be more to this thread ?
Are you guys thinking at doing proactive actions ?

Something like making a survey about why people play, what they value and what would be preferable within reason in comparison to how things used to be/are/could be ?
I doubt everyone will magically change how they play. That being said, feedback can be important to give a sense of what to do next with what we have here.
I think if people get in the right mindset, games can be pretty cool overall.

mellonxcollie 10-19-2020 12:18 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747498)
Blaming this last game going sideways on me for being angry at Bug is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

I don't think anybody is saying that? I'm pretty sure people acknowledge that many town players fucked up hard in this game.

Charu 10-19-2020 12:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747498)
As currently described, you're not going to get toned down responses/pushes unless you start a list of banned words like idiot, dolt, fuckface, whatever but everyone doesn't want censorship and since the sin here really is, when you boil the complaints down, people taking it personal and not the words themselves censoring isn't gonna matter.

Like if Airhead is the worst insult I'm allowed to say and I call someone an airhead and they recognize that I used the worst insult that I could, they're still going to get their feelings hurt regardless of what word actually got used.

"Don't use insults", while at least being quantifiable and enforceable, isn't super practical in a game that gets heated by nature (you know with the fact that you're either lying to your friends or know for a fact that if the game is still happening, a friend is lying to you).

Pretty much exactly why I don't want censorship, it restricts how players would want to go about a game of lying and logic. It is what it is.

...Also, I feel you on that "not playing the game" part. That's part of the inactivity problem that FFRTWG suffers from.

Xiz 10-19-2020 12:42 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the sun fan (Post 4747434)

Regardless, I would like another TWG sub forum moderator. I'm not sure how best to choose this person, and would like input on this matter as well.


Touching on this, I nominate either Charu, Funnygurl or Danceguy. They in my opinion are the most level-headed players, and most responsible out of everyone and know how/when to diffuse situations.

Xiz 10-19-2020 12:47 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Also this past game was kinda one of the last straws for me. I love this game, I love the people, you all are some of the best people in the world who I respect and treasure as friends. But I really need a break from this game for at least a few months because it's to the point where I join and need to just skip any messages said by one or two players in order to not get annoyed at being verbaly abused. There is a line, and it's different for every player.

Some people can handle / want to play more aggressivly then others. Some people can't handle it. The people who play more aggresivly need to respect and understand the boundries of other players in the game, but at the same time I understand how that's not that easy for some players to do.

I'm very well aware that I'm probably the reason Halogen doesn't play TWG when he first joined back in 2015. After that I promised myself to never play like that again and play around people's line levels.

The Adam situation was so toxic, I brought him in but I cut him off completly. You cannot treat anothre human being like that ever.

the sun fan 10-19-2020 12:59 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747462)
Oh people have given me examples before I'm good on that.

I'm asking for a definition so we can have a deeper conversation then our standard "be nice in a game about not being nice" discussions.

I don't think a fine definition exists, if there was one, I would've attempted to supply it in my first post.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747490)
No, but blaming me for being toxic (whatever that term means here) was more preferable to town then admiting their faults.

This whole thread sprang from those accusations and if this is going to just be a call out thread it'll be really cool if people dropped the pretense and just called me out like we're adults.

I want to be clear, and I really should've done this in the first post, this is not calling out you or anyone specifically. Almost all of us have been toxic before. Bolth listed me as non-toxic, but I'd say I really crossed some lines in the Animal Crossing game, to name a recent(ish) instance. Its probably got no exceptions that, if you've been playing the game for as long as most of us have, you've been toxic at least once.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747473)
I guess I should expand, time for shower thoughts (literally as I type this)

The act of name calling or challenging someone's logic isn't the issue. It's how players go about it at an extreme negative angle to purposely provoke a player.

For example...
"The hell are you talking about? I've explained why I believe (player) is (guilty/notguilty) if you look at my previous posts!?"

To...

"What the fuck are you talking about you fucking moron? I've explained why I believe (player) is (guilty/notguilty) multiple fucking times. Learn how to read dipshit or stop being bad at the game."

Both convey the same message, but its pretty clear which one is intended to provoke a player negatively.

I think this is as good of a definition as it will get; the difference between these two.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747498)
Ok cool but that description of toxicity can really only be answered by me making the same response I already have and we've already started a circle.

The only consistant throughline in everyone's definition is that post made them feel victimized and unless the accusation is that people are intentionally victimizing players in the game then that's something largely iut of ny control unless I just adopt a game strategy that involves no pushing and that's honestly half the game. Or more, since when people don't feel pressure they don't play the game instead

As currently described, you're not going to get toned down responses/pushes unless you start a list of banned words like idiot, dolt, fuckface, whatever but everyone doesn't want censorship and since the sin here really is, when you boil the complaints down, people taking it personal and not the words themselves censoring isn't gonna matter.

Like if Airhead is the worst insult I'm allowed to say and I call someone an airhead and they recognize that I used the worst insult that I could, they're still going to get their feelings hurt regardless of what word actually got used.

"Don't use insults", while at least being quantifiable and enforceable, isn't super practical in a game that gets heated by nature (you know with the fact that you're either lying to your friends or know for a fact that if the game is still happening, a friend is lying to you).

Last post on the issue. I've no more to say and frankly this community's repeated unwillingness to actually play the game (inactivity, unwillingness for town to do basic town things like reads, cross examine or vote apparently) make me not want to engage it. Blaming this last game going sideways on me for being angry at Bug is just the cherry on top of the sundae.

I'm not in favor of banning any specific words, aside from words that are already banned by FFR as a whole (and I don't really think there's a hard list of these anywhere).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4747500
I don't think anybody is saying that? I'm pretty sure people acknowledge that many town players fucked up hard in this game.

Make no mistake, that was one of the worst town performances I've seen on FFR, both to Lar and to agree with raeko. This thought can be expressed in a way other than "none of the towns gave a fuck and lost to the worst fucking fakeclaim I've ever seen, which really goes to show how stupid town was"
I won't spend 1,000 words (or more xd) talking about this game since its not the postgame thread, but its just a singular example.

I would say that Lar played the best out of town, but that's not an excuse to behave in such a manner, especially considering I think bug played nearly as well and is the last person town should "blame" for a loss. (finding people to blame is another subject entirely)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On this subject, I believe that this is a team game. You win as a team, and you lose as a team. Stats fall a bit short here in this department, and certainly its very hard to blame someone who had perfect reads on the first day phase, and died at the wolves hand on the very first night, but there is no such thing as a perfect game.

And most-most importantly, winning and losing just doesn't matter as much as I thought it did. I hope some other people are either here or get here. We can play this game 1,000 times under the same setup and find out as much as we can about the particular setup dynamics if we want, and we can even see who has the highest winrates, etc. It doesn't matter because we will never do this, and even if we did, its not really what we should be trying to get out of the game.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

On the subject of policing toxicity, its part of why I want another moderator (or maybe even two to bring it back to the size of 5 from the past). It shouldn't be just one person deciding whether or not something is toxic. I don't know what the punishments would be for being toxic, I don't know where the line would be drawn, but I think these are things that do need to be decided, probably after deciding on the new mod(s).

the sun fan 10-19-2020 01:06 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
to use a stupid line
"I don't know how to define pornography, but I know it when I see it"

I think this is applicable here.

MafiaUniverse uses a metric of "attack the play, not the player," and I think MU does a much better job at policing than I previously thought, but there are absolutely some shortcomings here, to talk about something I've seen happen to FFA specifically.

DailyMafia has basically no line and I think that's probably a bad thing.

j-rodd123 10-19-2020 01:11 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
side note but i find it funny that an identical discussion is going on right now on 2+2 after some toxic incidents in a recent game. the WW scene is way less active there now and is nowhere near as "toxic" as it was in like the mid 2010s as a number of players from then don't play any more or only play majors (if any of you have played there you know the culture can be insane....), but it's nice to see that people actually grow over time

Xiz 10-19-2020 01:16 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I really believe the penalty thread was a huge step in the right direction.

Charu 10-19-2020 01:24 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
If you're thinking of penalizing MML right now, let me just stop you son, lmao. That ain't the solution either, that's just another form of censorship.

...Penalizing inactives though...............................................

Then again, FFRTWG has this inactivity problem for a long while now. Really puts a dent on the penalty thread.

the sun fan 10-19-2020 01:27 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
that thread did not stop inactivity
it punished inactives, sure, but it had no impact on whether or not people would be inactive or not (I also think that the metrics were a tiny bit harsh)

I want to be clear that there is ex post facto if we decide to start policing toxicity more heavily
the most toxic posts that have ever been made on FFR will NOT under any circumstances receive any kind of punishment if they were made before this change

Charu 10-19-2020 01:42 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
My threshold would be not to insult someone on a personal level, that's really it.

They can be a aggressive as they want beyond that.

All the gray inbetweens of aggressive plays indirectly insulting someone is super subjective and... yeah, you'll probably have to "deal" with it.

Xiz 10-19-2020 01:58 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747510)
If you're thinking of penalizing MML right now, let me just stop you son, lmao. That ain't the solution either, that's just another form of censorship.

...Penalizing inactives though...............................................

Then again, FFRTWG has this inactivity problem for a long while now. Really puts a dent on the penalty thread.

Inactive's, not MML

Funnygurl555 10-19-2020 04:04 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i volunteer as new mod

make me a mod

Shadow_God_10 10-19-2020 04:37 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747524)
i volunteer as new mod

make me a mod

I uh, don't think that's how that works, Funny

YoshL 10-19-2020 04:56 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Been reading through thread past couple days

I stopped playing TWG because i found a better environment and better community uplift elsewhere rather than "playing" a game that feels less like play, and more like stress.

But since I don't play anymore, I can honestly just volunteer to be someone to approach if someone believes that another player is being too toxic, and make judgment calls post-game regarding that. I think our playerbase is mature enough to at the very least receive and give such reports of perceived toxicity in good faith, and I would like to believe that the other way around, that when being reported against, receive the criticism in good faith as well.


so not as a method of punishment, but moreso of player self-improvement.

Funnygurl555 10-19-2020 05:44 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747528)
I uh, don't think that's how that works, Funny

but i wanna

id do a good job

T-Force 10-19-2020 06:05 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747528)
I uh, don't think that's how that works, Funny

You'd, uh.. be surprised.

FreezinIce 10-19-2020 06:37 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I think i said most of my thoughts on the matter in the postgame thread.

Maybe my tolerance for verbal abuse is not the norm but for the most part i didnt see anything egregious in the game i hosted.

The only time insults seemed to be close to crossing into the "wtf" territory is when shadowgod was ranting at raeko and insulting subaru. But even then i didnt really feel it was my place to interject and police the way the game is being played.

Maybe i should've. Maybe i will in the future. I will definitely be more cognizant of that fact.

FreezinIce 10-19-2020 06:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Funnygurl is p chill. She'd keep things real so she gets my vote if we're voting on mods

FreezinIce 10-19-2020 06:41 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Also was adam the guy from the fe mystery game? I think i never properly read his posts.

YoshL 10-19-2020 06:57 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
yeah adam was the one who was like "yoshl get checked into a mental institute" and really nasty shit

mellonxcollie 10-19-2020 07:05 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747539)
shadowgod was ranting at raeko

me and lewdy are tight as heck and I knew I was gonna piss him off by even bringing that up lol. I was totally fine with the way he reacted.

I feel like it should be up to the players and not the host to decide what crosses the line. Hosts can't be expected to understand the personal relationships and boundaries between each player.

Like for me and Lewdy we both share a love for Asuka and tsundere characters. me calling him a perv and him telling me to shut up or he will put me into a nursing home is all in good fun and a way to show we care in a weird tsundere way. we are dedicated fully to anime lifestyle

mellonxcollie 10-19-2020 07:07 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
My vote for mod would be T-Force. He's a global mod already so he has all the permissions that come with that, so in a worst case Ontario he could break out a ban.

Also he's a very level headed player and I think he would be a good judge of what is too far/over the line

Quote:

Originally Posted by the sun fan (Post 4747504)
Its probably got no exceptions that, if you've been playing the game for as long as most of us have, you've been toxic at least once.

I think star is the mf queen of making super strong arguments without being aggressive at all. but unfortunately I doubt she would want to be a mod but if she would, I would totally support it

T-Force 10-19-2020 07:37 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Yeah, I think personal relationships are a weird factor into all this. Having person A say something to C, but having B say the exact same thing to C could lead to different reactions all based on what's said.
But, that's also something to keep an eye depending on what's said and how that can skew the perceptions of people D, E, F, etc. They might view it as toxic even if that's not the intention.

T-Force 10-19-2020 07:39 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747548)
so in a worst case Ontario he could break out a ban.

LMAO! I don't know if that was intentional or not, but I love this!



Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747548)
I think star is the mf queen of making super strong arguments without being aggressive at all. but unfortunately I doubt she would want to be a mod but if she would, I would totally support it

Oh hell yeah. Star is a good player to study for this.

mellonxcollie 10-19-2020 07:59 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 


go to 3:03 to see my attempt at fake claiming against xiz

3:46 for worst case ontario

Funnygurl555 10-19-2020 08:11 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747484)
Well I think Charu is absolutely right, we’re all here And talking about this in general because we love the game, and it is unfortunate, because I agree that censoring is not the answer. I’d be interested to see what funnygurl has to say about the issue as she mentioned another TWG community elsewhere that toxicity didn’t seem to be present in (in the postgame thread) and I’m curious whether that’s to do with any rules the forums over there might have or if it’s more to do with the different personalities that happen to play over there

ok yeah i'm home now so i'll finally actually post stuff

first of all toxic isn't an exaggeration it accurately describes what the community is like during games. there's a culture here of hostility and deprecation of people's characters or intelligence. (not to mention that this place is a little cliquey y ' a l l but it's whatever though that's some high school shit but i miss it when other ffr people would just hop on down. there ain't that kinda energy around twg anymore and i miss it). anyways y'all have made me want to sub out of games, sometimes i'm out here wanting to leave twg, and i believe that i'm a pretty tough cookie. imagine how others feel.

yeah, check out the syndicate. i've played with nanook there. even though i was a newbie they welcomed me with open arms. not to mention they actually go out of their way to get to know newbies. i'm sure they're not perfect and have their issues but like man, what a crew. i haven't played in a while tho maybe i'll go back

so anyways one actionable recommendation i have is to have a twg vet available to chat with people who are uncomfortable while playing a game. i wanted to chat with bugkid but couldn't because we were both still in it (i'm sure others had their back though). sometimes players, especially newbies, need to feel supported. i'd be happy to step back for a couple of games and be that person if need be.

ok i'm not done. two more things:

1) i want to see this community grow. i love y'all but without active recruiting ffr twg's gonna die out. some of us will get busy, others will get tired of the game. we /need/ a steady stream of newcomers-- it's not a question of whether we /want/ them.

2) xel and mml are (imo understandably) confused about how they should act in twg. i get that social rules can be a bit hard to define, but i think that rules aganst toxicity should be delineated.

i'd be a good mod thanks

Funnygurl555 10-19-2020 08:18 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
mml, if it helps, i think what really gets to people is when what you say is disproportionately mean compared to what someone else says. like bugkid was p darn nice in the game but you were insulting them

i hope this thread doesn't make you wanna leave though. i actually really like playing with you and your posts don't get on my nerves personally 'cause i know you don't really mean them

inDheart 10-19-2020 09:02 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747539)
I think i said most of my thoughts on the matter in the postgame thread.

Maybe my tolerance for verbal abuse is not the norm but for the most part i didnt see anything egregious in the game i hosted.

The only time insults seemed to be close to crossing into the "wtf" territory is when shadowgod was ranting at raeko and insulting subaru. But even then i didnt really feel it was my place to interject and police the way the game is being played.

Maybe i should've. Maybe i will in the future. I will definitely be more cognizant of that fact.

any time you would get to a level of "policing" that's not "chill fam tbh pls fam" either in DM/PM or in the thread, i think it becomes a twg-mod-worthy question

like if things are going batshit wild and people are telling you as much, and you post a general warning to quit the batshit wilding, if it continues after that it's like. go get backup

maybe the enemy zero game could've benefited from me doing a modpost tbh. i don't claim to be perfect

_Zenith_ 10-19-2020 09:05 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4747544)
yeah adam was the one who was like "yoshl get checked into a mental institute" and really nasty shit

Yeah, and I thought he said something along the lines of someone's life not mattering or alluding to someone taking their lives, but Adam was definitely a prime example of the level of toxicity that would get you permanently banned from this community.

Charu 10-19-2020 09:05 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Make me mod and I'll give everyone free bird ups

FreezinIce 10-19-2020 10:34 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747555)


go to 3:03 to see my attempt at fake claiming against xiz

3:46 for worst case ontario

I was originally just going to go to the timestamps but i watched the whole thing in a mesmerised stupor


Wow

XelNya 10-19-2020 11:11 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747556)
2) xel and mml are (imo understandably) confused about how they should act in twg. i get that social rules can be a bit hard to define, but i think that rules aganst toxicity should be delineated.

I think you didn't understand my post, like at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747557)
mml, if it helps, i think what really gets to people is when what you say is disproportionately mean compared to what someone else says.

I've attempted to respond to this nicely like 50X, and I just can't

you literally cannot post more than like a fucking infant like that

you can't

Funnygurl555 10-19-2020 11:30 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
you wanna explain how i don't understand your post or what

and do i post like an infant to you

flashflash account 10-19-2020 11:32 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
njikunjher 4r4nnqq2qawaq

Shadow_God_10 10-19-2020 11:43 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4747583)
njikunjher 4r4nnqq2qawaq

*strokes beard*

I see...

Shadow_God_10 10-20-2020 12:04 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Gonna throw in my two cents here because fuck it, I can.

I've been playing with you guys for a little over a year now, and I've been having a blast, despite my inexperience.

Emotions can run a little rampant in a game involving lying through your teeth and deceiving your friends for a period of two to three weeks. This is all well and good, but if I'm being honest here, I have not once seen a drip of toxicity from this community.

Charu 10-20-2020 12:09 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
500 IQ suggestion.

Just be respectful, lol.
Wait... I already suggested that for moderation, nevermind

Charu 10-20-2020 12:43 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747557)
mml, if it helps, i think what really gets to people is when what you say is disproportionately mean compared to what someone else says. like bugkid was p darn nice in the game but you were insulting them

i hope this thread doesn't make you wanna leave though. i actually really like playing with you and your posts don't get on my nerves personally 'cause i know you don't really mean them

I somehow missed this, oops.

I know it ain't directed at me, but after glancing at the game that just ended to see if there was a connection between this thread's creation to then.

MML posts are aggressive and are meant to pressure players as he said in this thread. There was actually very few posts I would deem "too strong" coming from him this game. Yes, I went through every single post he made in that game to see if your post had merit.

In fact the only quote I can share that might've been an insult was this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4746324)
If you can play the game better then me then by all means start actually playing the game

Which was directed at bug and it was a little insult too, not a big one that would stir up personal drama. Of course that entirely depends on how bug interpreted it

...

I'm just trying to figure this out, don't mind me!

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 12:59 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4746415)

You're doing jack all and Bug flipped from being meek and unsure to cocky and unhelpful on a dime the fucking moment Haku gave him an out. I don't want to hear your shit about how that isn't wolf behavior

it didn't take me too long to find this

someone calling me cocky and unhelpful when i'm dipping my toes in the water would hurt my feelings

edit:

you know i'm still waiting on xel's response so i hope he returns to thread

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 01:03 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
im back

Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4746347)
Oh a confident player now are we?
Only responds when you think I left the thread eh?
Can't answer basic bitch questions about their own viewpoint
Such an asset to town ain'cha?

Know that Confirmed Town (what Haku is parading you as) has more of a responsibility to lead and be bold, since the rest of the game shouldn't be questioning your motives. You wanna let Haku bail your ass out you better act the part all the way.

Out for real, go ahead and make a snarky comeback I'll let you have the next one for free. Probably the last noteworthy thing you 'll post this phase anyway


Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 01:04 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
anyways if you talked to bug postgame it becomes p obvious that they were affected by how people posted this game. even if you think, "oh that's not too bad," it was bad enough that bug doesn't wanna play another game

our one newbie

Charu 10-20-2020 01:06 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
That is one of the "too strong" posts, yeah. It's not particularly insulting though unless the player laying out how they read a player's reactions was insulting.

This is what I mean when I said aggressive playstyles inevitably leads to hurt feelings when they probably didn't mean it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747493)
My view of toxicity in TWG (Or games like this) are what I described. Being an aggressive poster does not inherently make you a toxic player. However, just being aggressive has its issues as you know from me and others. Feelings get hurt and whatnot when you may not have intended to hurt feelings (keyword, MAY).

It's just inevitable with that playstyle, there's no changing it outside of forcing yourself to not be yourself.


Charu 10-20-2020 01:12 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747596)
im back

Again, it's one of his "too strong" posts, but yeah, looks like I missed a line when going through his posts.

"Such an asset to town ain'cha?" is an insult, for sure.

Charu 10-20-2020 01:17 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747597)
anyways if you talked to bug postgame it becomes p obvious that they were affected by how people posted this game. even if you think, "oh that's not too bad," it was bad enough that bug doesn't wanna play another game

our one newbie

MML is tough to play with though, I do agree. His bites when I played with him in the heat of the moment are super stressful. I agree he should've been WAAAAAAAAY calmer with the new player than he projected, that is a valid critique for him last game.

But did he reach toxic levels though?

Charu 10-20-2020 01:26 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Why am I up analyzing this, uuuuugh. I should be sleeping for work this morning.

Work is gonna suuuuuuuuuuck.

...

I think this is my mini-TWG. I've starved myself so long for analyzing that I'm using this thread as a means to crack the toxicity case.

MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM, YEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEAH!


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