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-   -   On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG) (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=152456)

roundbox 10-20-2020 01:30 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
My two cents:

This probably won't be my only post on the matter, so don't expect me to cover everything.
To preface, I have not read the most recent game. I'm not attempting to minimize people's feelings or experiences, so if I say something presumptive about the recent game, assume it's at its face: presumptive. I am speaking on behalf of my own experience here.

Speaking as a general trend for FFRTWG, I would say hostility has been decreasing over the years. I firmly believe that what is perceive as toxicity and hostility has trended downward. I will make a few reference points of recent memory where bouts of toxicity have been tangible.
-Adam being force replaced as a result. Most people agreed his posts were disgusting (pretty sure they were re: someone's mental health, and therefore crossed the line being too personal
-rzr being super banned not only for cheating, but lying, making excuses, and insulting his way through the situation. The super ban came from the discussion afterwards for posts he directed towards choof which were personal and disgusting in nature.

These have had visible consequences. We recognize and agree across the board when someone is being overtly harmful to the community and/or specific people. However, these examples stand out since something was done. To not point the finger at anyone, let me bring in some scenarios where I might have been perceived as hostile. Take note that I have not been banned or reprimanded for any of my posts.
-See postgame for the most recent FE mystery game. IIRC, this is where I absolutely unloaded on Freezin for "being on a fucking high horse," insinuating that he was being pretentious and dismissive. I called people "fucking idiots" for their inability to play and solve mystery games. I'm pretty sure this can be construed as saying FFR sucks at mystery games.
-Deadchats. Most of these logs have been purged from existence, but I think deadchats are where other players and myself have been overly critical. This leads to some nasty posts at times, and I know I've tossed my share of "town is being so fucking stupid" or "x has shitty play this game."
-I'm pretty sure I went off on Red Blaster pretty hard after Mashi/DBP wolf team convinced him to vote for me/plop.

As I mentioned, I have not been reprimanded. For the first example, I know I apologized within the thread after cooling down. This brings me to my next point that has been acknowledged in the thread. Emotions run high. Games can last week's, especially large ones where things can really get down to the wire. A game with 24 people takes longer than 9 people, and by the end of a 24-person game, things get intense because you don't want to let your teammates or yourself down. Most people don't want to go so far just to lose. It's hard not being heard. When it comes to moderating this, how do you even measure and enforce emotions running high? Imagine someone's behaviour is labeled toxic. Can they lob emotions as a potential explanation, or is that going to be the only way people respond to accusations, and it becomes an excuse? This line of logic is a bit hyperbolic, admittedly, but I think it taps into measuring the "how do we deal with saying it was emotion" vs "said without emotions running high." I think it's impossible to distinguish perfectly.

One aspect of our culture that isn't necessarily accommodating, I think, is something akin to an "old boys club," where only a certain sect of users are taken seriously in-game (and out-of-game, too). I know I belong to this since people frequently take my reads with more than a grain of salt instead of moving past them. I know that this post will be taken seriously, so that's why I think it's important for me to respond.
I think certain vets here and new users have a bias pressed against them for possible reasons of inexperience, lack of results, user demographics, or general lack of trust. For new users, I think the inexperience and trust stand out, and for veteran users, I think demographics and results stand out. I know I'm guilty of making judgment calls on people's reads because they've had a trend of being wrong. I've glanced past certain users because I perceived their skill to be low. I feel like I've improved on this and judged less, but implicit bias is hard to move past once someone has said something that rubbed you the wrong way at one point. One example that I feel stands out is Lar. When Lar first started, he had his Lar method of analyzing votes and whatnot, and I know he was the subject of some lines of ridicule. His method didn't seem to get results, and it seemed like he was a one-trick pony that was constantly or mostly wrong. However, I think Lar is a beast at the game now. I do think he is taken more seriously now, but he has results that got him out of that social rut. Some people are not as fortunate and have a hard time posting and being taken seriously. I think this is an issue that should get some attention as well.

So, I think the calls on toxicity come from something I'm seeing as an exception and not the rule. TWG culture, I feel, was much more cutthroat and hostile previously, and I divulged examples from my past to describe the culture and what was deemed acceptable or reasonable behaviour in the past (in addition to the bans on unacceptable behaviour). On the whole, I think people are much less rude than before. If people are exceptionally rude now, I think they're standing out rather than being a part of the norm. As a community, we've banded together against poisonous behaviour. I think we've come a long way.

One last note: what is the definition of toxicity we are looking to draw and create rules about? What's off the table? Some more objectivity here would be appreciated (yes, I get we're dealing with a topic with subjectivity in its rulings). Like Charu is saying, does it cross the line of toxic? How do we know if it did/didn't? Were emotions running high? I provided some solid examples of what the community agreed upon as "too far," and would like to see discussion shift towards that in addition to my points about bias.

TL;DR
read my post

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 01:39 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747600)
MML is tough to play with though, I do agree. His bites when I played with him in the heat of the moment are super stressful. I agree he should've been WAAAAAAAAY calmer with the new player than he projected, that is a valid critique for him last game.

But did he reach toxic levels though?

i finally dictionary.com'd toxic and ima have to say....... no, because the qualifier "extremely" is too much

"extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful"

if we take the extremely out though then yeah fits the bill

but one person doesn't ruin the atmosphere of a game. i think it would be beneficial if others toned down too. idk why no one was bringing up this happening all game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4746161)
Well now since we've crossed this bridge, you can kindly fuck off with any notion of my being a third party. You can fuck off with me saying I'm dodging the issue. I literally don't give a fuck about the Alien. You can fuck off with not voting, I'm of the opinion that both wagons were garbage, glad to know no one asked me about why I didn't vote until JUST NOW.

Holy fuck get out of this tunnel you're in Lar

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4746099)
Fuck off with this Alien shit. I actually want you dead because you're being an idiot right now and everything you've said has been unhelpful this entire day

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4746089)
Are you fucking dumb? This is weak sauce and flimsy as fuck. Do you want me to throw a vote on your ass? I'll be more than happy to

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4745971)
Soooo you're reading Subaru town?

Put the fucking pom-poms down and do some work, yeah?

I see the lazy coasting play you're going for with your short answers, and frankly it's annoying me right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4745724)
I would flip my chair if Bug is town here. I would legitimately hammer myself at L-1 and retreat into the fucking mountains if Bug is town. Haku do not make me consider this

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4745636)
Subaru get a reads list going because I want to throw you into the sun right now

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4745627)
I legit want to beat you with a chair for this

Let me get this straight: You see two wagons going, Sunfan and WV

Your best play for that is voting YOURSELF?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4745622)
if you aren't 3p here, you're a fucking idiot for doing it

If you're 3p you may as well out yourself now and save the hassle

issa multiple people thing. thanks

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 01:52 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roundbox (Post 4747602)
One aspect of our culture that isn't necessarily accommodating, I think, is something akin to an "old boys club," where only a certain sect of users are taken seriously in-game (and out-of-game, too). I know I belong to this since people frequently take my reads with more than a grain of salt instead of moving past them. I know that this post will be taken seriously, so that's why I think it's important for me to respond.
I think certain vets here and new users have a bias pressed against them for possible reasons of inexperience, lack of results, user demographics, or general lack of trust. For new users, I think the inexperience and trust stand out, and for veteran users, I think demographics and results stand out. I know I'm guilty of making judgment calls on people's reads because they've had a trend of being wrong. I've glanced past certain users because I perceived their skill to be low. I feel like I've improved on this and judged less, but implicit bias is hard to move past once someone has said something that rubbed you the wrong way at one point. One example that I feel stands out is Lar. When Lar first started, he had his Lar method of analyzing votes and whatnot, and I know he was the subject of some lines of ridicule. His method didn't seem to get results, and it seemed like he was a one-trick pony that was constantly or mostly wrong. However, I think Lar is a beast at the game now. I do think he is taken more seriously now, but he has results that got him out of that social rut. Some people are not as fortunate and have a hard time posting and being taken seriously. I think this is an issue that should get some attention as well.

yeah this grinds my gears as well

Quote:

Originally Posted by roundbox (Post 4747602)
So, I think the calls on toxicity come from something I'm seeing as an exception and not the rule. TWG culture, I feel, was much more cutthroat and hostile previously, and I divulged examples from my past to describe the culture and what was deemed acceptable or reasonable behaviour in the past (in addition to the bans on unacceptable behaviour). On the whole, I think people are much less rude than before. If people are exceptionally rude now, I think they're standing out rather than being a part of the norm. As a community, we've banded together against poisonous behaviour. I think we've come a long way.

wait what

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 02:16 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
ok also to be honest idk of an optimal way to enforce rules around toxicity. but i think laying down some ground rules would reduce incidences of harsh behavior. and i also don't know what those rules should be 'cause apparently compared to all y'all i'm a wuss and think things are MUCH MEANER THAN THEY ARE like i haven't been told that by ppl already but it's whatever

at the heart of this issue isn't a lack of rules though it's a culture problem and imo we have to reach a consensus on how to move forward

_Zenith_ 10-20-2020 02:28 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
That snippet from Roundbox's post that Funny quotes deserves more attention because I feel nobody can deny that it happens a lot. Even in my own case and using myself as an example here, 99% of the time most of what I say isn't taken remotely seriously or looked at in and out of game, and I've been with you guys for years now. I'm not sure if it's because of how I was in the past, but in the POV of a new player if I noticed that I wasn't being noticed or taken seriously because I'm new (even if they're not new to Mafia) I wouldn't continue trying to play because it feels like there isn't a point.

Hakulyte 10-20-2020 04:19 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747589)
500 IQ suggestion.

Just be respectful, lol.
Wait... I already suggested that for moderation, nevermind

It's actually that simple, but the how is surprisingly more complex than it sounds.
The tricky part is that you need to be aware of what's affecting respect for everyone.
That is a colossal task because there's no way that I know perfectly how everyone thinks here and why.

This quickly convert into problems because I need to know what people needs in order to give it to them.
Entire games can deviate horribly if you force me to assume everything on my own.
Last game is a good example of that.

Most of the time, I have absolutely no clue how to make sense of how people post in this game.
What worked in the past, doesn't necessarily work anymore and it's pretty discouraging at times.

Even with the full information now that we are postgame, there's still things that doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I don't identify and understand them, I will probably keep getting wrong reads on players.

Toxicity is the consequence of something else. If you get through that something else, toxicity should go away.
I think that something else has to do with respect and trust over playing this game a long period of time.

So, I can echo on what Roundbox said.

Bolth mannn 10-20-2020 04:22 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Yea regarding the snippet that funnygurl quoted

I joined this community less than a year ago and this was definitely the first thing i noticed. People would ridicule me or dismiss my reads that I put a lot of effort in, and the same people would comment stuff like ''xxx is town'' with absolutely no evidence, and it really threw me off at the start. Though I'm used to the culture now, I don't put nearly as much effort into my reads these days as, i think, a result of my first few games. The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

I will note that the condescending undertone has gotten a lot better. I found some people very condescending my first few games that seem to have stopped being so, so I think that is a positive thing, regardless of whether its to do with them or whether its to do with the fact that im not as new anymore and I've had some moments of proving myself

Hakulyte 10-20-2020 04:36 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747611)
Yea regarding the snippet that funnygurl quoted

I joined this community less than a year ago and this was definitely the first thing i noticed. People would ridicule me or dismiss my reads that I put a lot of effort in, and the same people would comment stuff like ''xxx is town'' with absolutely no evidence, and it really threw me off at the start. Though I'm used to the culture now, I don't put nearly as much effort into my reads these days as, i think, a result of my first few games. The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

I will note that the condescending undertone has gotten a lot better. I found some people very condescending my first few games that seem to have stopped being so, so I think that is a positive thing, regardless of whether its to do with them or whether its to do with the fact that im not as new anymore and I've had some moments of proving myself

Oh, I remember that.
Honestly, your reads were so good in your first games that I thought only wolf you could have come up with them.
I was really shaken to see you flip town in one of the first ones.
Please realize the difference between posting quality content and people attempting to understand if that content is coming from a town player or not.

They're very different things. I believe you did the "reading part" as good as it could have been done. It's just that there's this 2nd mini game where you need to rally town together as a team.
That is honestly probably the hardest part in TWG. You can solve an entire game perfectly and still lose if people doesn't want to follow up on your reads.

You're more close than you think of being in a good spot to have these great games.
If you can practice shifting game momentum and talking to others to like get on your side while still have quality reads, you will not just win, but also MVP a game.

Charu 10-20-2020 07:44 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I'mm-a echo roundbox at his TL;DR and say read his posts. It's a large post, but it's a really good large post.

I'm currently suffering the consequences of sleeping really late to dabble on his points. Will probably try again later after I nap after work or something (if I nap).

...

As for funnygurl's quotes on shadow, holy moly. I think Shadow did more insult flinging than MML this game. But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult even though I really should.

Roundbox definitely on the right track here with his really good post.

Makilaz 10-20-2020 09:02 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i've certainly been overly emotional in the past (good lord i'm ashamed of several year ago me) and i apologize to anyone affected by it

this game is intimidating enough to new players and it can be really difficult to get a foot in the door. anyone that doesn't hit the ground running and immediately produce dissertation-level reads list is dismissed out of hand at best and insulted at worst.

roundbox's post is good and i honestly don't have much to add to it. codifying what is allowable and what's not is important and i think any decisions and reasons for them would need to be public. this is not the sort of thing you can really moderate behind closed doors.

also i'd like to put my name in for consideration. i have a stupid amount of mod/admin experience on other communities and i've been in this one for a long-ass time. i love this place and want to see it continue to be the best damn twg/mafia community ever

mellonxcollie 10-20-2020 10:06 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747615)
As for funnygurl's quotes on shadow, holy moly. I think Shadow did more insult flinging than MML this game. But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult even though I really should.

Same here. Lewdy is a very excitable person and just posts his unfiltered reactions to things

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4745627)
I legit want to beat you with a chair for this

Let me get this straight: You see two wagons going, Sunfan and WV

Your best play for that is voting YOURSELF?

does anybody really think Lewdy actually wants to beat Subs with a chair? or is this just his emotional reaction to Subs doing a silly play?

Some people can be really mean spirited but Lewdy is not one of those people. he just isn't. He just gets super into things and has big reactions

Maybe can we have a vote of people who actually think this is a problem vs who does not see it as a big deal? Because honestly I don't see a problem and I'm more worried about scaring people like Lewdy away than the few newbies we may occasionally get. I do wish that Bugkid would play again but they also said they didn't like the format of forum TWG so even if the game went differently, not everyone is going to be into this way of playing.

I agree with Roundbox in that I think we have improved a lot over the years.

YoshL 10-20-2020 10:21 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I still think that overarching limiting rules about conduct won't ever give enough specified and nuanced coverage of the interactions that go on in TWG.

I'm still thinking that having just an outside player, whether it be a host or a mod outside of the game be able to take concerns about conduct privately. Optionally, the report post button can be used, mods (including twg mods) will be able to see those reports, and can be reviewed case-by-case

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 10:42 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
so it's ok for shadowgod to make those kinds of posts but not mml

why?

Makilaz 10-20-2020 12:03 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4747619)
I still think that overarching limiting rules about conduct won't ever give enough specified and nuanced coverage of the interactions that go on in TWG.

I'm still thinking that having just an outside player, whether it be a host or a mod outside of the game be able to take concerns about conduct privately. Optionally, the report post button can be used, mods (including twg mods) will be able to see those reports, and can be reviewed case-by-case

obviously we're never going to be able to list out every conceivable thing that is okay or not, that's impossible. having some sort of code of conduct that we can point to and go "hey don't be like this" is a very necessary thing to have

add a catch-all "don't be a dick and don't explicitly try to find loopholes" and we're good. it's kind of amazing we've gone this long without a CoC tbh

Makilaz 10-20-2020 12:06 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747621)
so it's ok for shadowgod to make those kinds of posts but not mml

why?

further to this point making sure whatever method is used for working out problematic behavior is applied evenly to everyone is also super super important

a line will need to be drawn and certain people shouldn't be given extra leeway for whatever reason. if two people can make the exact same post and be treated differently for it then that's a problem that needs fixing

mellonxcollie 10-20-2020 12:23 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747615)
But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult

Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747618)
Some people can be really mean spirited but Lewdy is not one of those people. he just isn't. He just gets super into things and has big reactions

That's the difference between Lewdy and Lar. It's the same difficult to define characteristic of "I know it when I read it" but it is the intent and the intensity behind the words

Funnygurl555 10-20-2020 01:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
what

Makilaz 10-20-2020 03:20 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it

Netjet! 10-20-2020 03:30 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I've been reading this and the other thread a bit, and I think that getting heated is sometimes very beneficial to a game, but should it not be up to the moderators to police/manage behavior that goes past the line? I think the outcome of this is to have a team of multiple people who can moderate properly and come to independent conclusions so as to avoid favoritism. Spirit of the game should be kept up but when people cross the line and it starts to get meta then they step in to stop it.

Shadow_God_10 10-20-2020 03:34 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747637)
hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it

I mean it's not like we're out here roasting the shit out of each other.

For me, yeah, I can get pretty heated and emotional when I'm heavily invested in a game like this and I can fly off the handle. But it's all in good fun at the end of the day in my opinion and anything I might say, or if we're using Lar as another example should be taken with a grain of salt in terms of actually insulting people vs trying to get what we want out of them, which is information, thoughts, and opinions.


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