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-   -   On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG) (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=152456)

Makilaz 10-21-2020 12:51 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747763)
nobody NEEDS to say anything, or really play at all. friendly jabs and insults can be a part of some people's personality and how they banter with their friends. It doesn't make the person toxic, and I don't think they need to take a step back for any reason

there's a big difference between banter with friends and chat/twg in an online community. friendly jabs between friends can look mean-spirited and unwelcoming if you're not already familiar with the people involved

like, it's super easy to see someone doing what they feel is friendly jabbing to their friend and think 'wow they're kind of an asshole, I better stay out of their way' and there's no need for that sort of misunderstanding to be possible in the first place

if something could be viewed as toxic regardless of the intention behind it maybe don't post it in the first place

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 01:09 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747766)
if something could be viewed as toxic regardless of the intention behind it maybe don't post it in the first place

but that is going to impact some people more than others and by extension impact the game.

some people don't use friendly jabs at all, they've just never done it or are afraid to be mean or whatever. while for others it is a part of their daily interactions with people and part of the way they talk to their friends. They would have to make a conscious effort to change the way they talk while playing while other player's wouldn't. And the more aggressive players would be more likely to be perceived as wolfy for sounding "unnatural"

not to even mention people's varying levels of tolerance for "toxic" behaviour. depending on the audience everything or nothing could be perceived as toxic and how is someone who is making the post supposed to know how someone else is going to read into it?

it's just super confusing

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 01:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Like I agree that straight up insults, personal attacks etc cross the line. But I think trying to police those is going to be really hard because of all the things I have brought up.

That's why I think Freezi's solution of "get a few more mods, and if problems arise have the mods deal with it in post-game" is the best solution

XelNya 10-21-2020 01:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747763)
nobody NEEDS to say anything, or really play at all. friendly jabs and insults can be a part of some people's personality and how they banter with their friends. It doesn't make the person toxic, and I don't think they need to take a step back for any reason

Ok I lied. I'm coming back this once.

This post pretty much summarizes how I feel about posts like the ones from Shadow earlier. Posts in the games always just feel like friendly banter - or like I guess a good modern equivalent would be playing among us, where you would speak more on the cuff, and loose with your friends.

That's how I've treated TWG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Force (Post 4747685)
Serious talk. How hard is it to actually be like, somewhat genuine and just -say- things without the need to throw a ton of swearing or personal jabs into it. You may not think we need to, but maybe it's something bigger than that.

If I can actually be really frank with you all for a minute, I'm not like, unaware at all that the way I talk is off-putting to people, but it's not like I go too far, I'd expect people in this area to just, tell me if I'm being too rough.

Like there's two instances I can think of where everyone did just that, that's LTWG when I called Roundbox a white-knight, and actually funny enough when I blew up over being modkilled at roundbox.

I already feel less genuine because I actively go out of my way to keep my posts more tame. I think some of you are too boomer, and attached to swear words being swear words instead of just really versatile words.

In short, Trevor to answer your question, I'm already less genuine because I don't talk in twg the same way I do IRL. If I didn't like most of you, this conversation would be very, very different.

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 01:26 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747764)
I think some people should look at their posts in this thread through the same lens to be completely frank

once again, excuse me, but what

Makilaz 10-21-2020 01:30 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747768)
Like I agree that straight up insults, personal attacks etc cross the line. But I think trying to police those is going to be really hard because of all the things I have brought up.

That's why I think Freezi's solution of "get a few more mods, and if problems arise have the mods deal with it in post-game" is the best solution

this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

Charu 10-21-2020 01:34 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747770)
once again, excuse me, but what

She saying some of y'all are being jerks to the folks being accused of being jerks.

^
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This post is brought to you by someone's interpretation, one of the silly things I mentioned previously in the thread! Hooray for interpretation!

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 01:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747771)
this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

yeah I think sunfan and maybe YoshL should weigh in here for sure

I do think having the ability to ban in a worst case Ontario is still a good idea so maybe a global mod?

or maybe a TWG subforum group that mods can kick people out of the group (this is what we have for tgb). but the problem with that is people have to apply/be added manually in order to be kicked out of the forum group

Charu 10-21-2020 01:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747771)
this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

Probably a warning first. If the offending player did not feel they were out of line, then I suppose an appeal is made right there. If it's truly deemed that it was not out of line, then the warning is averted and probably is just a strict talking instead to perhaps approach a situation with less hostility. If the warning is valid, then next time they do it again, they'll get a game ban.

...I'm assuming that's how it's going to work out anyways.

Makilaz 10-21-2020 01:40 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747773)
yeah I think sunfan and maybe YoshL should weigh in here for sure

I do think having the ability to ban in a worst case Ontario is still a good idea so maybe a global mod?

or maybe a TWG subforum group that mods can kick people out of the group (this is what we have for tgb). but the problem with that is people have to apply/be added manually in order to be kicked out of the forum group

there's already a twg group but it stopped getting used ages ago and I think it's been forgotten about

having the ability to ban would be a very good thing, so if we don't outright get a gmod on the roster then having one on standby to help would be solid

YoshL 10-21-2020 01:59 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
twg mods do have the ability to hand out bans through infractions

I think i've said this too many times in thread, but there's too much specificity in each scenario of "is it a friend making funny insults towards someone they know well" or "person unabashedly flaming a new person"

if i'm saying "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz", but xyz says "no it's actually ok" then I don't see a reason to take action.
if i say "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz" and xyz says "yeah it really sucked" then yeah, warning, and follow through with game bans if the behavior persists.
The only way I see this resolving is if people don't speak for someone else, but the people in question being able to say something.

i'm still advocating for just transparency in postgame (or during game, in private to a non-playing twg mod). This whole entire thread and debate becomes more clear cut if the person who's being talked to in a toxic manner is empowered and is given the agency to speak up

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 02:12 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747772)
She saying some of y'all are being jerks to the folks being accused of being jerks.

^
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This post is brought to you by someone's interpretation, one of the silly things I mentioned previously in the thread! Hooray for interpretation!

thanks charu

Makilaz 10-21-2020 02:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
tharu

the sun fan 10-21-2020 02:27 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747721)
Does this involve more memeing or less memeing?

I am serious about my Rias Gremory post.

I'm not sure if this is a meme question

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Force (Post 4747718)
Funny thing is that's happened.. a wolf actually committed seppuku in F3 because of the stress. Either that or it was a town.

Either way, watching the all Team Quebec F3 end that way was shocking, to say the least.

op was town that game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747722)
No ground is being made because the people who the thread is targeting are refusing to find fault in their ways and the people who recognise the problem arenít able to identify a realistic solution.

I really echo what Makilaz has been suggesting, and agree a lot with what Roundbox posted as well.

Could it be as simple as disallowing personal insults? Iím sure thereís negatives to this too, but for sake of coming up with a tangible solution, Iíll start here I guess.

this thread was not made to target anyone
like I said before, almost everyone has been toxic on multiple occasions over the years
it just doesn't have to be this way and, moving forward, I'd like there to be a much lower amount of this

Quote:

Originally Posted by roundbox (Post 4747723)
I feel like very little has been done in engaging with my post. Let me roll my sleeves up a bit

First, for those that did respond: thanks. FG, to answer your question, pointed and cutthroat play used to be the rule, not the exception. Over time, I feel like it's become the exception, not the rule of general player behaviour.

Now, can we try and engage some of the points I've made? I feel like things are moving forward without nearly any consideration of my contributions.
-We've agreed unanimously as a community when certain people are stepping far out of line
-Overt rudeness and harshness, I feel, has decreased
-As a previous offender, I pointed to my downward trend of spiciness. Deadchats, as they stand, are breeding grounds for personal attacks.
-Getting heated and emotional is anticipated in a longer game. How do we draw the line to moderate this? Is it even something we can define?
-Implicit bias controls the hierarchy of vote/read importance. There is a clear divide in newness/experience. Perceived skill/lack of skill. Male/female or other. As someone who occupies the beneficial side of all these equations, I look back on situations where I've not believed someone's read or taken as seriously as another due to some of these.

I don't know. That's really how I feel at this point. This whole thing just feels like decisions are being made in the background without too much being said in this thread. My understanding is that at least one person in the game had a bad time. Maybe this is wrong, but work with me here as I'm in the dark. There are absolutely, unequivocally, zero problems with someone having a problem with another user's behaviour. I've had chats with TWG mods about individual players, so I've been there. However, this was dealt with in private. Why this thread? It just feels like we're putting Lewdy, Lar, and Xel on display. Why not talk to them in private? Why does this have to be aired out here with people taking potshots and low blows?

The thread started off by proposing adding another mod. Now we're up to adding two more? Where did this come from? It seems like conversations going on outside of this thread are influencing decisions and not what's being discussed here. I feel like what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears.

-What is the idea moving forward? This is still not clear. I've only heard "more mods," but what specific aspects of behaviour or code of conduct content is being pondered?
-To achieve meaningful change, first, you must have acknowledgement. After that, you can discuss solutions. I don't feel like we've hit either of these stages.

I don't want FFR to die. Hell, I submitted a 13 player game to Freezin earlier. Please, someone, elucidate me.

I don't really know if its lower than it was before, i'm not really keeping track. If I had to guess, it would be lower than before but that doesn't mean that it can't get better (no one's saying otherwise, just felt like saying it)

I think that there ought to be some punishment for being toxic in a game, harsher for repeat offenders.

Why did I make this thread? its to begin the discussion, and to let people know that I am looking for TWG mods. Discord is great and all, but this is the place that the most people check and will actually read the large amount of words that people post, whereas discord is uh... not that

I knew there would be some drama to making this thread. I knew it, and I did it anyways because I think its important. Sometime in the future, there will be enforcement against toxicity, and this is to begin discussion about toxicity, as well as let people know what the future will eventually bring. I don't know the specifics. This thread was made partly to figure out the specifics. When the specifics are known, everyone will know. Firstly, I want to get two new mods to help moderate and provide input.

As for acknowledgement, I feel like there has been some. By posting in the thread, you've acknowledged it. Maybe I don't understand what you're saying here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747745)
Here is my guide for not being a dingus

- dont insult people to discredit their points (bolth said it best, attack ideas not people)

- dont be a dick

- if someone asked u to stop doing a negative behavior towards them, respect their wishes

- at the end of the day your playing against another person, treat them like one

good list

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747771)
this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

probably warnings into bans is what i'm thinking. my goal is to make it kind of hard to get banned, warnings are usually sufficient enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4747776)
twg mods do have the ability to hand out bans through infractions

I think i've said this too many times in thread, but there's too much specificity in each scenario of "is it a friend making funny insults towards someone they know well" or "person unabashedly flaming a new person"

if i'm saying "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz", but xyz says "no it's actually ok" then I don't see a reason to take action.
if i say "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz" and xyz says "yeah it really sucked" then yeah, warning, and follow through with game bans if the behavior persists.
The only way I see this resolving is if people don't speak for someone else, but the people in question being able to say something.

i'm still advocating for just transparency in postgame (or during game, in private to a non-playing twg mod). This whole entire thread and debate becomes more clear cut if the person who's being talked to in a toxic manner is empowered and is given the agency to speak up

this brings up the point that I am least sure about; what to do when someone wants to make a complaint about toxicity. The official report post feature seems out of the equation to me, so maybe it'd have to involve PMing someone on discord?

would like some input/ideas here

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 02:43 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i think it's in my best interest to step outta this thread for now

sorry if i hurt anyone's feelings with my posts-- i know I singled out a few of you here but it wasn't my intention to say that you're the problem

anyways i hope sunfan makes a lit decision for moving forward

Makilaz 10-21-2020 02:44 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
not everyone uses discord or is in the server - sending a forum pm is probably easier

maybe sending a pm to all the mods in one message is the way to go? that way they can confer on what action to take, if any, get both sides of things, etc. it also helps prevent situations where one mod gets messaged and the other mods are out of the loop

Makilaz 10-21-2020 02:45 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747780)
anyways i hope sunfan makes a lit decision for moving forward

very same

_Zenith_ 10-21-2020 07:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
A known band-aid solution for those who cannot help themselves when they get heated is to type a heated message and then delete it. It's helped me in the past and I think it was also a suggestion in the past for some as a means to get it off your chest but not actually post it and tarnish the healthiness of the game.

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 07:53 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by _Zenith_ (Post 4747785)
A known band-aid solution for those who cannot help themselves when they get heated is to type a heated message and then delete it. It's helped me in the past and I think it was also a suggestion in the past for some as a means to get it off your chest but not actually post it and tarnish the healthiness of the game.

Another suggestion I'd have is to rant at someone who is outside the game and the website entirely.

I rant about stuff constantly so even if I'm not particularly heated in TWG I'll sometimes rant to my parents about it. They have literally no idea what I'm talking about because their response every single time is "so are you a wolf?" but it still helps to sort my thoughts out and get things off my chest lol

fatfuck42 10-22-2020 10:28 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Adding a couple more mods sounds fine to me (and I'm cool with the names that've been suggested). I also like the reporting/tip-line feature too.

Outside of those more formal things, us being more proactive in telling people to chill out or letting them know they crossed a line would probably help out. I know in my own personal experience I've crossed lines that I would've remained oblivious to crossing had people not pointed it out to me. Also, I know I've seen posts where, were they directed at me, I would've told the person to relax, but since they weren't I just kept scrolling...but if we get like five people telling someone to chill, chances are they're gonna be more likely to chill.

Ultimately, this is a really complicated issue with no one-size-fits-all solution. We can only try out different arrangements and see if they bring us closer to where we wanna be.


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