Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

lets just make it easy and actually look at the postcounts

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Just thought I'd point out that Blind isn't town.

The problem is, his overall performance is far, far from organic. No one seems to have really considered what I said yesterday, so I'll reiterate my case against Blind.

Yesterday, I made a series of posts when I got back, one of which included a suggestion by me that we didn't know how many wolves there are.

Emphasis on we can't even be sure of how many wolves there are.

As several people (DBP at length, Freezin and Sun Fan a bit) alluded to—see #1722—this was incorrect. All T tables include three wolves. My confusion came from the fact the the mafiascum wiki table differed from the official game table. I was reading the former when I made that claim, which led to what DBP characterized as a dumbtell.

Blind claims that he hadn't read the long discussion about that when he commented on the post. But that's very hard to believe. You see, he reacted with extremely exaggerated concern

likely trying to scope out an aggressive position on a topic (that he didn't actually understand) in order to simulate town cred.

The problem is, he immediately undercut his own reading. Not only did he misunderstand what had actually happened, but his reaction upon being caught showed that the excessive “What” post was fake.

Note the following:

My initial response:

His response to that:

This is hilariously problematic. Blind makes the same mistake I did, obviously reading from the mafiascum tables. This would be funny on its own, calling out someone for a dumbtell, then making the same dumbtell. But it's more than that, because it reveals his reaction to my post was artificially constructed. There's no need to go “What what what...” or indeed to even react at all if this was his actually understanding of the situation. If he believed what he claimed here, then my initial statement (we don't know how many wolves there are) would have been mechanically valid, and there would have been no reason to jump on it because it was correct.

Instead, by jumping all over it, he commits to the idea that there's something wrong with it. But he very clearly, as demonstrated by the post above, doesn't understand what. Rather, he saw that other people, primarily DBP, had discussed it at length, and saw an opportunity to scope out unclaimed case ground rather than actually making a case. Not only does this speak to a lack of actual scumhunting—looking for a unique position rather than a position supported by evidence—it clashes directly with his claim that he hadn't read further on, and was simply reacting to my post. If that was the case, why the initial overreaction. After all, “I get the chances.”

This interpretation of Blind is borne out by his later responses.

First, I pointed out the obvious problem with his post.

To those actually following the discussion—who had commented on it and understood what the dumbtell was—this remark made sense.

His initial reaction is to explain away his misreading as an immediate hot take to my initial post, although as I've demonstrated that's problematic because by his understanding there was nothing to react to.

Where Blind really undermines himself is in his reaction to Freezin's casual response.

Blind doesn't understand what's embarrassing because he still doesn't realize that he committed the same dumbtell. He read into my statement what he wanted to read, missing the actual point—a point that was necessary to understand in order for his original post (What what what...) to make any sense at all.

Every single post he made in this sequence drives home the fact that he didn't understand what was wrong with what I said initially, which not only shows that his criticism of it was falsely constructed, but that his extreme reaction was as well. It would be one thing to make a passing remark regarding the "how many mafia" thing, another entirely to do what he did.

blindreper1179

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Oh so that's what you've been doing

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

did the quotes and the argument not line up very well for anyone else?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Votes from post 1861 to post 2164
Night in 26:19:03
---

• Votes -- Lynch -- Voters
• 1 -- Xiz -- the sun fan (60)
• 1 -- inDheart -- FreezinIce (37)
• 1 -- blindreper1179 -- Precarious (1)
• 1 -- unvote -- Celirra (95)
• 5 -- not voting -- blindreper1179 (17), Funnygurl555 (16), inDheart (30), Tps222 (5), Xiz (42)

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Sure, mass claiming sounds fun. Vt here for the 142577425785th time.

I didn't dumb tell on the wolf number pre, i was saying at 6/7, which i missed 5, would be 2 wolves IF we were using wiki, but we're not, and i doubt we rolled 6/7. 5 may be possible, but ehhhh.


You're wasting your time trying to construe my words honestly.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

I'm not parsing it very well.

I think he's saying that blind is faking not knowing about the dumbtell?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

why do blind and prec only exist when the other exists
zzzzz

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Ummm. Did you not see me at day start? Have you not seen me through out the day? That was pres literal first post of the day.


And you talk about only using examples to push a motive... :eyeroll:

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

So TTTRRK. So... we're missing one letter right?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Or does vanilla not mean a T for certain?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

It depends on what you're saying by this, but there is always at least 3 vanilla towns.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

I hardclaim vt btw

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

It's mostly just what first came to mind timing wise tbh
You're not wrong

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Im saying with the flips it's TTT. But if there is always 3 vts, then those could be moot for the role queue.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

I am the ideal ice cream flavour eh

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

You're superman?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i didn't know people actually liked superman flavoured ice cream

my mind is blowing

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

You quoted me as follows:

Originally Posted by Precarious View Post
we can't even be sure of how many wolves there are for example.

and responded with

48 Whats suggests you found something really, really objectionable about that statement. And yet you couldn't identify what was obviously wrong about it, as I've pointed out, repeatedly. Probably to the point that people are getting tired of reading it.

If I'm correctly interpreting your word salad above, you're now trying to argue that you knew we weren't using the wiki, yet felt the need to criticize me even though you knew I thought that? That's not terribly believable.

lol that Freudian slip

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Idk what freudian is, but yoshl made it VERY clear that the T roles were updated in OP. Yet you went to the wiki. Not my fault you don't pay attention. You're still wasting your time, and i'm done wasting my time. Try to find anything else if i'm such a wolf bro, come get me. Otherwise, write your pre meditated novels about someone else.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

What I'm saying is that Blind reacted extremely harshly to the original statement, a minor mechanical elaboration in the middle of a much larger post. That's fine on its own, even if it feels unwarranted.

But virtually every subsequent reaction Blind had with me yesterday hammered home the idea that he didn't understand what the problem was with my post, which calls into question the sincerity of his criticism. He also argues that he never read the discussion concerning the post (mostly by DBP), having reacted immediately to it after seeing it. Yet if he didn't understand what was wrong with it, how could he have found reason to attack it if he hadn't read everyone else's commentary on the subject? This is particularly true since my own initial reaction post, which he quoted, made note that said discussion existed.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Let it be clear i say things how i say things for a reason. I literally got mislynched last game because of it. Im not stupid. I've never slipped as a wolf or as a blue.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Hot cake: pre still a wolf.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Precarious I'm gonna have to level with you
I'm not lynching blind without the same stuff that I mentioned earlier about funnygurl

I do think that you're slightly missing what happened, I really don't think that blind was openly criticizing you without knowing what he was saying, that's not really a blindreper thing to do just as a person in my experience.

He probably did know what he was talking about when he posted what that many times imo.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

my vote begins to feel more and more confortable on Xiz btw

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

hey guys

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

massclaim:
freezin- Vengeful
sunfan- vt
cel- vt
blind- vt
inD-
Xiz-
Precarious-
Tps-
fg-

flipped roles:
Gradiant- vt
Syhto- vt
who_cares- vt
DBP- Gunsmith

current setup:
Vengeful, Gunsmith...
KRRxxxx

assuming no additional roles:
KRRTTTT

TTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

this wasn't directed at you but okay

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i dont like how prec didnt claim

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

if ya wanna lynch lurkers then who

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

wait what was the bait

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

convenient vote

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i think im down for the massclaim as well

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

convenient cognitive dissonance for a non mvp wolf, fg should've been lynched d0 again and i think this game needs more posts, then whatever would bug the rest of the cast

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

eod is in 25h right

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

actually no nvm i like that convenient cell i take that back

also unvote

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

kinda late bro. Fess up your role then.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

vt here

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

yeah i realized that after you and i think greg went for it lol

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i might be very drunk tomorrow if i decide i dont mind being hung over for work on friday

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

If you drink, I'll drink and we can strip for each other on cam.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

oh

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

sry i zoned

am vt

i did make my "if i die" post hoping it'd bait a nk tho based off having vaguely mechanical-looking info there

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

As you wish.

On D1, Blind basically did nothing. This is somewhat excusable, given his stated work on a film, so it's not really a black mark against him imo. But at the same time, it's also nothing that attests to any towny likeliness. It's just a NAI void.


**************************************************
**************************************************


On D2, Blind brought this up:

N.B.: The Gradiant list is the group of players suspected as possible wolves in his last testament, namely DBP, Sun Fan, inD, and Funny. It also includes the players who voted for Gradiant, but all Gradiant voters were already on his list.

I'll start by noting that this conveniently creates a pool which doesn't include Blind, thereby exonerating him of all lynch risk on D2. But that doesn't mean it's not a valid suggestion. However, Cel immediately hopped on another Blind inconsistency.

This was due to his vote on Cel slightly earlier.

Blind's response was of course to dismiss any possible significance of the behavioral inconsistency.

I didn't like this yesterday either; Blind crafted a conveniently self-serving strategy, even though his own behavior didn't affirm it. This is even further borne out by his absurd evaluation of the Gradiant list.

According to Blind, DBP is a wolf (oops), Funny is a wolf, and at least one of inD and Sun is a wolf. Setting aside the extreme unlikeliness of Gradiant's pool being so perfect, that's 3+ wolves. Why was he voting Cel again?

This was apparently his reason for suspecting DBP. Which is, as he might put it, flimsy. This isn't much of a problem, merely an overzealous reading on his part. In isolation, I might even read this particular post as towny. But as part of a scheme to wolfread an entire bloc? It feels constructed.

This is even more the case when one considers that Blind's immediately previous post described DBP's case against Gradiant as a "good theory." I guess happening to be wrong in spite of a good theory is enough to assume someone's wolfiness in Blind's eyes.


**************************************************
**************************************************


Xiz throws out a joke post about low activity posters and Blind immediately feels the need to distance himself. He has no capacity to shrug it off as a joke; neither does he exhibit any willingness to actually consider myself or Tps as wolves. It's just "get away from me, I'm not a wolf!"


Here, he immediately turns on Xiz. This is relevant for multiple reasons.

1. Xiz had been pushing Blind, calling into question his DBP scumread, and lightly speculating about a Blind-included wolf team. This is vaguely OMGUS, especially since

2. He neither came up with the read on his own, nor contributed anything to it. Freezin makes an observation that Xiz has been forgettable, so Blind immediately latches on.

3. Whether or not this qualifies as full on suspicion of Xiz, it comes after having fully numbered his wolves (convenient) in the Gradiant pool--while still having his vote on Cel.


**************************************************
**************************************************


Here, he calls out Sun for self meta reading. This is valid, and of course Sun is in the Gradiant group, so this at least is internally consistent. But it still feels scattershot. Rather than scumhunting, he's grasping at every straw he can find, without analyzing, interpreting, or even value-assigning.

In fairness, though, his next post did stay on Sun Fan, pressuring him for information, which is internally consistent with building a case (or at the least suspecting) Sun.


**************************************************
**************************************************


Directed at me. Reasonable given my absence at the time, honestly. I don't like the "I" divorced from the greater group though.

...Oh wait, he's just echoing someone else's read again. 24 minutes (and only one intervening post) before his post:

Originally Posted by Precarious View Post
Okay, I'm free from my real life obligation now. Catching up.
Funnygurl had already made the observation; Blind once again sheeps someone else's work. But maybe that's unfair; it's not his fault I was taking a lot of time to catch up, nor his fault that someone else had pointed that out. However, when it clashes with his pre-arranged reads, his scam gets scrambled. When inD pursued this point, this happened:

So, it's me, DBP, and ??? Great, I guess he'll be voting DBP then, since they were in the Gradiant group.

Never mind then. The thing is, he could have easily included Sun in his previous read, replacing the ??? gap, and no one would have called him on it. But he didn't--and there was only one intervening post between Prec/DBP/??? and the Sun vote. In fairness, that post was by Sun, which might have swayed Blind's vote--but why not include Sun previously? He was already pressuring him and already wolfreading him. Why not include him, unless he had forgotten about him somehow? And indeed, why had he waited all these hours to change his vote, when he had been wolfreading lots of people all day?

He stays on Sun. This is about the only strand of consistency to his thought on D2 to this point--but that it exists at all is a good thing. Although I'm not quite sure what he means by drilling--maybe tunneling? Although that doesn't really make sense in the context of that sentence...

Neither does Sun, I guess.

Oh, come the fuck on dude. You're the last person who should be complaining about people not following what you're saying, Mr. I-don't-know-what-a-Freudian-slip-is-and-I-can't-be-bothered-to-Google;-also-I-don't-read-long-posts-but-comment-on-them-anyway.

Remaking a point? Providing a false presence?

Um, projection much?


**************************************************
**************************************************


After that, he has one bit of banter with DBP...and then the What What What... comes. I'm not going to rehash that here, but refer to about half my posts if you've forgotten!


**************************************************
**************************************************



This is fine, actually. Wondering where his commentary on FG, who he had wolfread way, way earlier, was all day though.

After this, he was mostly absorbed in discussions with me regarding our Thunderdome. I'd forgive him for that if that whole sequence hadn't been wolfier than Remus Lupin on the full moon.


**************************************************
**************************************************


Directed at DBP. He's been mostly consistent with his Gradiant list reads, so why hasn't he pushed that theory again? He then votes DBP after the latter claims to "use big words sometimes"--I guess that was the dealbreaker?

And that's Blind's D2.

Why are people town reading him again?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

ok so like, when blind said this:

i thought he was saying 6 or 7 Ts was low% enough that it wasn't worth considering, and that's why i went and ran the numbers

idk when i read his posts i think there's space for him to think the MS original setup is in play, but also think you're saying something useless, prec

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

that isn't supposed to be a town case, in response to your question, i'm just ??? on this bit

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

well well well, I actually didn't expect that. Well done.

You're still wrong though.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

This is what I did mean. I was saying that even if we were using the wiki. 6/7 T's were very slim of being used, so it'd be safe to assume 3 wolves. Like I said, he's taking what I said and flipping things around and using them to his advantage. He keeps thinking I've done some sort of slip, but I haven't....

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Per the massclaim, I claim VT.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

oh a massclaim

vt

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

massclaim:
freezin- Vengeful
sunfan- vt
cel- vt
blind- vt
inD- vt
Xiz- vt
Precarious- vt
Tps-
fg- vt

flipped roles:
Gradiant- vt
Syhto- vt
who_cares- vt
DBP- Gunsmith

current setup:
Vengeful, Gunsmith...
KRRTTTx

assuming no additional roles:
KRRTTTT

TTTT = Mafia Goon, Mafia Goon, Mafia JOAT, Serial Killer

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

and now we wait on TPS

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

what goes around comes around

I swapped because w_c was just sitting there watching the EOD happen. He was clearly there because he was posting. It was shady, man.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i love the thinking emoji this made me lol

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Precarious I feel like someone owes you a fuller response to that post so I'll try to do that tomorrow, purely from my POV though

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

LOLOLOLOLOL

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

LOLOLOL

did celery all of a sudden acquire a wolf slot

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i got nothing else to add here

precarious drilling into blind like this looks town. i mean i disagree w/ it because blind's pretty townie to me, but still.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

People keep saying this. Can someone please enlighten me as to why? Because if you couldn't tell from the post above, I don't agree.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

so let's think from the perspective that you're wolf

if you're drilling this hard, then blind's probably town

you're expending a lot of effort creating a case on someone who from multiple people's opinions has been pretty town. that's hard

also what happens if blind does die and flips?

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

I'm not talking about why you think I'm town. I'm talking about why you think Blind is town. Like, I get that people see this game as opposed to his wolf meta. That been stated pretty explicitly a couple times. But setting aside meta (which I think is overrated), what else is there? I went through his whole game, and aside from a post here and there I liked, it was just a self-serving mix of scattershot and self-serving observations.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i see townie pov. i don't have a firm enough grasp on blind's playstyle to make a meta argument here.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Votes from post 1861 to post 2223
Night in 21:54:12
---

• Votes -- Lynch -- Voters
• 1 -- inDheart -- FreezinIce (38)
• 1 -- blindreper1179 -- Precarious (7)
• 1 -- Xiz -- the sun fan (68)
• 2 -- unvote -- Celirra (105), Xiz (51)
• 4 -- not voting -- blindreper1179 (30), Funnygurl555 (24), inDheart (33), Tps222 (5)

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

when game

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

whuddup

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

How long do we wait for tps to actually do anything before we just assume one way or the other

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

Does ind/xiz/fg work
(This is poe)

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

i wanna kill xiz or maybe ind idk i didnt look at ind

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

fg who's your top 3? You only gave 2 (two) there

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

zzzzzzzzzzz

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

3rd is u my dude

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

MORNING SUNFAN

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

🤔🤔

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

it's so lonely here it's like People have Lives

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

What's it like being social/productive/having fun/enjoying your life

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

You're powered up, get in there.

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

I have a plan for the different scenarios, I think

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

SUP

Re: TWG CLXXX - OuO what's this? [Game Thread]
 

so, as celery pointed out, there is a potential problem with the massclaim is TPS doesn't participate, so there's a few different things that can happen

TPS hits 10 contentful posts (I don't know where the bar is but there's no way its higher than this given blind and precarious were in the teens on d1 but didn't get the message TPS got) but never claims his role:
Lynch him. No reason for him to be the sole holdout here when it could mean the life of a blue, and we can't let a wolf get away with denying town that info.

----------------------------------------

TPS hits 10 contentful posts, claims his role. We resolve as necessary. We probably just have a normal phase if this happens.

----------------------------------------

TPS doesn't post any more, we expect him to be modkilled, so we lynch Freezin. There's no way to verify whether or not Freezin is telling the truth for sure if we are missing a piece, but it doesn't matter too much if TPS is getting modkilled anyway, and here's why.

Currently 9 alive, 6 town and 3 wolves looks like the most likely scenario by far.
9 alive: tps is modkilled, freezin is lynched (The modkill happens before Freezin shoots assuming he is the vengeful)
tps could be a wolf, freezin could also be a wolf (a lot less likely), and if freezin is a vengeful like he says he is, then town gets a shot at killing a wolf with his ChAoS sHoT.

What is beneath is the worst possible scenario where town can continue onwards.

If Tps is town, freezin is vengeful, then we're at 7 (4 town 3 wolves) alive, and freezin has to both shoot (he can apparently choose not to) and hit a wolf in order for the game to continue, which brings us to 6 alive, then the wolves kill a town bringing us to 5 (3 town 2 wolves), which is still workable, just not ideal.

The only scenario where town outright loses is one where TPS is town, Freezin is Vanilla Town and made a stupid play, and then town loses when the wolves make a nightkill, but this doesn't seem too likely given how early freezin was softing.