Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums

Flash Flash Revolution: Community Forums (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/index.php)
-   The Werewolf Game (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/forumdisplay.php?f=47)
-   -   On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG) (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=152456)

Shadow_God_10 10-21-2020 02:00 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747734)
ok one more thing: y'all the whole not listening/acknowledging newbie reads stuff like actually stunted my twg game. i took a break for a bit and played on other sites and i found that when i was assertive with my reads i was much better than i thought i was.
that really broke my heart when i figured that out
so anyways i hate that some players (like ya girl) are routinely ignored. y'all can ignore me though 'cause like i'll just win as a wolf again but don't do it to other people. thanks

WOW, It's almost as if I said the same damn thing and no one heard me

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747701)
My point for that recap of TWG hell is sometimes it's frustrating to play in a community as a brand new player, because I felt like my voice wasn't really being heard, which can be very disengaging for a player when they're playing a game for around a month.

Amazing

mellon_collie 10-21-2020 02:13 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
:ooooo shock and horror

lol im raeko eh

Shadow_God_10 10-21-2020 02:14 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellon_collie (Post 4747738)
:ooooo shock and horror

lol im raeko eh

Best Wolf teammate to leave in a cottage <3

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 02:21 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747737)
WOW, It's almost as if I said the same damn thing and no one heard me



Amazing

oh no i know you said it i'm just all like SAME HERE Y'ALL

u should have seen me smashing games in other communities then i come here and it's like
"check out my reads"
*crickets*

i'll win over u guys one day tho

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 02:24 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I think trying to enforce some kind of hard rule is a mistake.

Just appoint another mod or 2 and hold people accountable in postgame if they have a meltdown.

Im sure people are smart enough to realize when theyre going too far. And if they dont it will quickly become apparent

Shadow_God_10 10-21-2020 02:31 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747742)
I think trying to enforce some kind of hard rule is a mistake.

You can't hear me, but I'm screaming in happiness.

Enforcing a hard rule such as possibly: No Profanity will filter some content that players are trying to produce which can limit us in our ability to communicate with each other

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 02:33 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Here is my guide for not being a dingus

- dont insult people to discredit their points (bolth said it best, attack ideas not people)

- dont be a dick

- if someone asked u to stop doing a negative behavior towards them, respect their wishes

- at the end of the day your playing against another person, treat them like one

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 02:34 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I think everyone here is capable of following these points and playing in the same general style they usually play in

Shadow_God_10 10-21-2020 02:46 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747745)
Here is my guide for not being a dingus

- dont insult people to discredit their points (bolth said it best, attack ideas not people)

- dont be a dick

- if someone asked u to stop doing a negative behavior towards them, respect their wishes

- at the end of the day your playing against another person, treat them like one

If you don't mind me adding to this:

If a player feels genuinely uncomfortable they should be able to effectively communicate that they aren't comfortable with the way they're being grilled and can so and so back off, regardless if it's T/T W/W T/W W/T 3p/T 3p/W interactions.

Nowhere does it say that we are not allowed to call people out for anything that we feel is wrong.

Even if we see it, we should all have the awareness to say "Bro, you're grilling X too hard, take a 15 minute break and cool your jets"

I think now that I've said this, I believe ignorance to the aggression (MYSELF INCLUDED) that any player gets, is an addressable issue going forward in this discussion.

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 02:47 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
To roundbox, i agree that going forward any infractions shouldnt be subject to community judgement and should be taken care of in private by mods.

Shadow got dragged into this because i brought up an example from my game. To which i aplogize because it was out of line to namedrop him when we are brainstorming broad solutions to a persistant issue. There is no behind the scenes chats going on (i dont think) so i dont think u have to worry about that.

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 02:50 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747747)
If you don't mind me adding to this:

If a player feels genuinely uncomfortable they should be able to effectively communicate that they aren't comfortable with the way they're being grilled and can so and so back off, regardless if it's T/T W/W T/W W/T 3p/T 3p/W interactions.

Nowhere does it say that we are not allowed to call people out for anything that we feel is wrong.

Even if we see it, we should all have the awareness to say "Bro, you're grilling X too hard, take a 15 minute break and cool your jets"

I think now that I've said this, I believe ignorance to the aggression (MYSELF INCLUDED) that any player gets, is an addressable issue going forward in this discussion.

Lol i tell people all the time in games to go drink some water when they getting too heated. (Shoutout to shadogod)

I agree that we are capable of self policing in games and it shouldnt have anything to do with alignment.

Ideally it should never get bad enough to require a mod to intervene but everyone has to be on the same page

Shadow_God_10 10-21-2020 02:55 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747749)
Lol i tell people all the time in games to go drink some water when they getting too heated. (Shoutout to shadogod)

I agree that we are capable of self policing in games and it shouldnt have anything to do with alignment.

Ideally it should never get bad enough to require a mod to intervene but everyone has to be on the same page

You're STILL missing the W in ShadowGod

IT'S BECAUSE I LOST THE GAME, YOU WON'T GIVE ME MY W :(

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 03:06 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747750)
You're STILL missing the W in ShadowGod

IT'S BECAUSE I LOST THE GAME, YOU WON'T GIVE ME MY W :(

Its cause that quote comes from ShadoWolfe, not Shadow_God_10

EDIT: i was being retarded and misremembered his name. You have hijacked his space in my mind i guess

Come back and play wolfe! :(

He's the originator of telling people (Read: Me) to "go drink some water ffs" which is code for go take a break youre being obstinate. Ive used it a fair bit since then

Shadow_God_10 10-21-2020 03:11 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747752)
Its cause that quote comes from ShadoWolfe, not Shadow_God_10

EDIT: i was being retarded and misremembered his name. You have hijacked his space in my mind i guess

Come back and play wolfe! :(

He's the originator of telling people (Read: Me) to "go drink some water ffs" which is code for go take a break youre being obstinate. Ive used it a fair bit since then

What makes this even funnier is that Greg called me Omar at Anime North last year

EDIT: How much is rent in your head?

FreezinIce 10-21-2020 03:13 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747753)
What makes this even funnier is that Greg called me Omar at Anime North last year

EDIT: How much is rent in your head?

Tree fiddy.

Here's the origin of the quote. Good old classics man

http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...postcount=2468

I guess AA orginally got it used on him first

Makilaz 10-21-2020 04:28 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747731)
i think we should have some BASIC RULES
some COMMUNITY SUPPORT
some OUTREACH thanks

if i could quote this a hundred times i would

if you absolutely need to involve insults and "friendly" "jabs" in your playstyle then maybe you should take a step back and figure out why that is

everyone here should be perfectly capable of playing this game without being a dick, friendly intentions or not, to other players

Makilaz 10-21-2020 04:31 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747745)
Here is my guide for not being a dingus

- dont insult people to discredit their points (bolth said it best, attack ideas not people)

- dont be a dick

- if someone asked u to stop doing a negative behavior towards them, respect their wishes

- at the end of the day your playing against another person, treat them like one

this is a good guide

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 12:33 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747755)
if you absolutely need to involve insults and "friendly" "jabs" in your playstyle then maybe you should take a step back and figure out why that is

nobody NEEDS to say anything, or really play at all. friendly jabs and insults can be a part of some people's personality and how they banter with their friends. It doesn't make the person toxic, and I don't think they need to take a step back for any reason

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 12:35 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747755)
friendly intentions or not

I think some people should look at their posts in this thread through the same lens to be completely frank

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 12:37 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
also in a twist that will shock everyone, I 100% agree with Freezi's posts especially this one

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747742)
I think trying to enforce some kind of hard rule is a mistake.

Just appoint another mod or 2 and hold people accountable in postgame if they have a meltdown.

Im sure people are smart enough to realize when theyre going too far. And if they dont it will quickly become apparent


Makilaz 10-21-2020 12:51 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747763)
nobody NEEDS to say anything, or really play at all. friendly jabs and insults can be a part of some people's personality and how they banter with their friends. It doesn't make the person toxic, and I don't think they need to take a step back for any reason

there's a big difference between banter with friends and chat/twg in an online community. friendly jabs between friends can look mean-spirited and unwelcoming if you're not already familiar with the people involved

like, it's super easy to see someone doing what they feel is friendly jabbing to their friend and think 'wow they're kind of an asshole, I better stay out of their way' and there's no need for that sort of misunderstanding to be possible in the first place

if something could be viewed as toxic regardless of the intention behind it maybe don't post it in the first place

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 01:09 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747766)
if something could be viewed as toxic regardless of the intention behind it maybe don't post it in the first place

but that is going to impact some people more than others and by extension impact the game.

some people don't use friendly jabs at all, they've just never done it or are afraid to be mean or whatever. while for others it is a part of their daily interactions with people and part of the way they talk to their friends. They would have to make a conscious effort to change the way they talk while playing while other player's wouldn't. And the more aggressive players would be more likely to be perceived as wolfy for sounding "unnatural"

not to even mention people's varying levels of tolerance for "toxic" behaviour. depending on the audience everything or nothing could be perceived as toxic and how is someone who is making the post supposed to know how someone else is going to read into it?

it's just super confusing

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 01:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Like I agree that straight up insults, personal attacks etc cross the line. But I think trying to police those is going to be really hard because of all the things I have brought up.

That's why I think Freezi's solution of "get a few more mods, and if problems arise have the mods deal with it in post-game" is the best solution

XelNya 10-21-2020 01:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747763)
nobody NEEDS to say anything, or really play at all. friendly jabs and insults can be a part of some people's personality and how they banter with their friends. It doesn't make the person toxic, and I don't think they need to take a step back for any reason

Ok I lied. I'm coming back this once.

This post pretty much summarizes how I feel about posts like the ones from Shadow earlier. Posts in the games always just feel like friendly banter - or like I guess a good modern equivalent would be playing among us, where you would speak more on the cuff, and loose with your friends.

That's how I've treated TWG.

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Force (Post 4747685)
Serious talk. How hard is it to actually be like, somewhat genuine and just -say- things without the need to throw a ton of swearing or personal jabs into it. You may not think we need to, but maybe it's something bigger than that.

If I can actually be really frank with you all for a minute, I'm not like, unaware at all that the way I talk is off-putting to people, but it's not like I go too far, I'd expect people in this area to just, tell me if I'm being too rough.

Like there's two instances I can think of where everyone did just that, that's LTWG when I called Roundbox a white-knight, and actually funny enough when I blew up over being modkilled at roundbox.

I already feel less genuine because I actively go out of my way to keep my posts more tame. I think some of you are too boomer, and attached to swear words being swear words instead of just really versatile words.

In short, Trevor to answer your question, I'm already less genuine because I don't talk in twg the same way I do IRL. If I didn't like most of you, this conversation would be very, very different.

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 01:26 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747764)
I think some people should look at their posts in this thread through the same lens to be completely frank

once again, excuse me, but what

Makilaz 10-21-2020 01:30 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747768)
Like I agree that straight up insults, personal attacks etc cross the line. But I think trying to police those is going to be really hard because of all the things I have brought up.

That's why I think Freezi's solution of "get a few more mods, and if problems arise have the mods deal with it in post-game" is the best solution

this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

Charu 10-21-2020 01:34 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747770)
once again, excuse me, but what

She saying some of y'all are being jerks to the folks being accused of being jerks.

^
|
|
|
|
This post is brought to you by someone's interpretation, one of the silly things I mentioned previously in the thread! Hooray for interpretation!

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 01:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747771)
this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

yeah I think sunfan and maybe YoshL should weigh in here for sure

I do think having the ability to ban in a worst case Ontario is still a good idea so maybe a global mod?

or maybe a TWG subforum group that mods can kick people out of the group (this is what we have for tgb). but the problem with that is people have to apply/be added manually in order to be kicked out of the forum group

Charu 10-21-2020 01:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747771)
this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

Probably a warning first. If the offending player did not feel they were out of line, then I suppose an appeal is made right there. If it's truly deemed that it was not out of line, then the warning is averted and probably is just a strict talking instead to perhaps approach a situation with less hostility. If the warning is valid, then next time they do it again, they'll get a game ban.

...I'm assuming that's how it's going to work out anyways.

Makilaz 10-21-2020 01:40 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747773)
yeah I think sunfan and maybe YoshL should weigh in here for sure

I do think having the ability to ban in a worst case Ontario is still a good idea so maybe a global mod?

or maybe a TWG subforum group that mods can kick people out of the group (this is what we have for tgb). but the problem with that is people have to apply/be added manually in order to be kicked out of the forum group

there's already a twg group but it stopped getting used ages ago and I think it's been forgotten about

having the ability to ban would be a very good thing, so if we don't outright get a gmod on the roster then having one on standby to help would be solid

YoshL 10-21-2020 01:59 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
twg mods do have the ability to hand out bans through infractions

I think i've said this too many times in thread, but there's too much specificity in each scenario of "is it a friend making funny insults towards someone they know well" or "person unabashedly flaming a new person"

if i'm saying "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz", but xyz says "no it's actually ok" then I don't see a reason to take action.
if i say "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz" and xyz says "yeah it really sucked" then yeah, warning, and follow through with game bans if the behavior persists.
The only way I see this resolving is if people don't speak for someone else, but the people in question being able to say something.

i'm still advocating for just transparency in postgame (or during game, in private to a non-playing twg mod). This whole entire thread and debate becomes more clear cut if the person who's being talked to in a toxic manner is empowered and is given the agency to speak up

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 02:12 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4747772)
She saying some of y'all are being jerks to the folks being accused of being jerks.

^
|
|
|
|
This post is brought to you by someone's interpretation, one of the silly things I mentioned previously in the thread! Hooray for interpretation!

thanks charu

Makilaz 10-21-2020 02:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
tharu

the sun fan 10-21-2020 02:27 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadow_God_10 (Post 4747721)
Does this involve more memeing or less memeing?

I am serious about my Rias Gremory post.

I'm not sure if this is a meme question

Quote:

Originally Posted by T-Force (Post 4747718)
Funny thing is that's happened.. a wolf actually committed seppuku in F3 because of the stress. Either that or it was a town.

Either way, watching the all Team Quebec F3 end that way was shocking, to say the least.

op was town that game

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747722)
No ground is being made because the people who the thread is targeting are refusing to find fault in their ways and the people who recognise the problem arenít able to identify a realistic solution.

I really echo what Makilaz has been suggesting, and agree a lot with what Roundbox posted as well.

Could it be as simple as disallowing personal insults? Iím sure thereís negatives to this too, but for sake of coming up with a tangible solution, Iíll start here I guess.

this thread was not made to target anyone
like I said before, almost everyone has been toxic on multiple occasions over the years
it just doesn't have to be this way and, moving forward, I'd like there to be a much lower amount of this

Quote:

Originally Posted by roundbox (Post 4747723)
I feel like very little has been done in engaging with my post. Let me roll my sleeves up a bit

First, for those that did respond: thanks. FG, to answer your question, pointed and cutthroat play used to be the rule, not the exception. Over time, I feel like it's become the exception, not the rule of general player behaviour.

Now, can we try and engage some of the points I've made? I feel like things are moving forward without nearly any consideration of my contributions.
-We've agreed unanimously as a community when certain people are stepping far out of line
-Overt rudeness and harshness, I feel, has decreased
-As a previous offender, I pointed to my downward trend of spiciness. Deadchats, as they stand, are breeding grounds for personal attacks.
-Getting heated and emotional is anticipated in a longer game. How do we draw the line to moderate this? Is it even something we can define?
-Implicit bias controls the hierarchy of vote/read importance. There is a clear divide in newness/experience. Perceived skill/lack of skill. Male/female or other. As someone who occupies the beneficial side of all these equations, I look back on situations where I've not believed someone's read or taken as seriously as another due to some of these.

I don't know. That's really how I feel at this point. This whole thing just feels like decisions are being made in the background without too much being said in this thread. My understanding is that at least one person in the game had a bad time. Maybe this is wrong, but work with me here as I'm in the dark. There are absolutely, unequivocally, zero problems with someone having a problem with another user's behaviour. I've had chats with TWG mods about individual players, so I've been there. However, this was dealt with in private. Why this thread? It just feels like we're putting Lewdy, Lar, and Xel on display. Why not talk to them in private? Why does this have to be aired out here with people taking potshots and low blows?

The thread started off by proposing adding another mod. Now we're up to adding two more? Where did this come from? It seems like conversations going on outside of this thread are influencing decisions and not what's being discussed here. I feel like what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears.

-What is the idea moving forward? This is still not clear. I've only heard "more mods," but what specific aspects of behaviour or code of conduct content is being pondered?
-To achieve meaningful change, first, you must have acknowledgement. After that, you can discuss solutions. I don't feel like we've hit either of these stages.

I don't want FFR to die. Hell, I submitted a 13 player game to Freezin earlier. Please, someone, elucidate me.

I don't really know if its lower than it was before, i'm not really keeping track. If I had to guess, it would be lower than before but that doesn't mean that it can't get better (no one's saying otherwise, just felt like saying it)

I think that there ought to be some punishment for being toxic in a game, harsher for repeat offenders.

Why did I make this thread? its to begin the discussion, and to let people know that I am looking for TWG mods. Discord is great and all, but this is the place that the most people check and will actually read the large amount of words that people post, whereas discord is uh... not that

I knew there would be some drama to making this thread. I knew it, and I did it anyways because I think its important. Sometime in the future, there will be enforcement against toxicity, and this is to begin discussion about toxicity, as well as let people know what the future will eventually bring. I don't know the specifics. This thread was made partly to figure out the specifics. When the specifics are known, everyone will know. Firstly, I want to get two new mods to help moderate and provide input.

As for acknowledgement, I feel like there has been some. By posting in the thread, you've acknowledged it. Maybe I don't understand what you're saying here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FreezinIce (Post 4747745)
Here is my guide for not being a dingus

- dont insult people to discredit their points (bolth said it best, attack ideas not people)

- dont be a dick

- if someone asked u to stop doing a negative behavior towards them, respect their wishes

- at the end of the day your playing against another person, treat them like one

good list

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747771)
this reminds me

what sort of dealing with it would the mods be doing, exactly

are we talking like game bans, probationary periods, stern warnings, what's the plan there

probably warnings into bans is what i'm thinking. my goal is to make it kind of hard to get banned, warnings are usually sufficient enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4747776)
twg mods do have the ability to hand out bans through infractions

I think i've said this too many times in thread, but there's too much specificity in each scenario of "is it a friend making funny insults towards someone they know well" or "person unabashedly flaming a new person"

if i'm saying "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz", but xyz says "no it's actually ok" then I don't see a reason to take action.
if i say "wow you were pretty toxic towards xyz" and xyz says "yeah it really sucked" then yeah, warning, and follow through with game bans if the behavior persists.
The only way I see this resolving is if people don't speak for someone else, but the people in question being able to say something.

i'm still advocating for just transparency in postgame (or during game, in private to a non-playing twg mod). This whole entire thread and debate becomes more clear cut if the person who's being talked to in a toxic manner is empowered and is given the agency to speak up

this brings up the point that I am least sure about; what to do when someone wants to make a complaint about toxicity. The official report post feature seems out of the equation to me, so maybe it'd have to involve PMing someone on discord?

would like some input/ideas here

Funnygurl555 10-21-2020 02:43 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i think it's in my best interest to step outta this thread for now

sorry if i hurt anyone's feelings with my posts-- i know I singled out a few of you here but it wasn't my intention to say that you're the problem

anyways i hope sunfan makes a lit decision for moving forward

Makilaz 10-21-2020 02:44 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
not everyone uses discord or is in the server - sending a forum pm is probably easier

maybe sending a pm to all the mods in one message is the way to go? that way they can confer on what action to take, if any, get both sides of things, etc. it also helps prevent situations where one mod gets messaged and the other mods are out of the loop

Makilaz 10-21-2020 02:45 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747780)
anyways i hope sunfan makes a lit decision for moving forward

very same

_Zenith_ 10-21-2020 07:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
A known band-aid solution for those who cannot help themselves when they get heated is to type a heated message and then delete it. It's helped me in the past and I think it was also a suggestion in the past for some as a means to get it off your chest but not actually post it and tarnish the healthiness of the game.

mellonxcollie 10-21-2020 07:53 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by _Zenith_ (Post 4747785)
A known band-aid solution for those who cannot help themselves when they get heated is to type a heated message and then delete it. It's helped me in the past and I think it was also a suggestion in the past for some as a means to get it off your chest but not actually post it and tarnish the healthiness of the game.

Another suggestion I'd have is to rant at someone who is outside the game and the website entirely.

I rant about stuff constantly so even if I'm not particularly heated in TWG I'll sometimes rant to my parents about it. They have literally no idea what I'm talking about because their response every single time is "so are you a wolf?" but it still helps to sort my thoughts out and get things off my chest lol

fatfuck42 10-22-2020 10:28 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Adding a couple more mods sounds fine to me (and I'm cool with the names that've been suggested). I also like the reporting/tip-line feature too.

Outside of those more formal things, us being more proactive in telling people to chill out or letting them know they crossed a line would probably help out. I know in my own personal experience I've crossed lines that I would've remained oblivious to crossing had people not pointed it out to me. Also, I know I've seen posts where, were they directed at me, I would've told the person to relax, but since they weren't I just kept scrolling...but if we get like five people telling someone to chill, chances are they're gonna be more likely to chill.

Ultimately, this is a really complicated issue with no one-size-fits-all solution. We can only try out different arrangements and see if they bring us closer to where we wanna be.

Wayward Vagabond 10-22-2020 02:09 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747787)
Another suggestion I'd have is to rant at someone who is outside the game and the website entirely.

I rant about stuff constantly so even if I'm not particularly heated in TWG I'll sometimes rant to my parents about it. They have literally no idea what I'm talking about because their response every single time is "so are you a wolf?" but it still helps to sort my thoughts out and get things off my chest lol

I'm sorry but your parents response is so adorable and I love it

bugkid666 10-22-2020 08:37 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
ok i've read through this whole thread now (was avoiding it for obvious reasons) but I feel that i'm somewhat responsible for replying at some point.

first thing I want to say is that i'm honestly really uncomfortable with the fact that a lot of this thread has been focused on three people "attacking" me specifically when I really didn't see it that way. from my perspective, I wasn't personally hurt by the things people said to me during the game, most of it just felt completely unnecessary to playing the game. like mml's post that fg is referencing in this:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747595)
it didn't take me too long to find this

someone calling me cocky and unhelpful when i'm dipping my toes in the water would hurt my feelings

** actual quote posted below **

like why would you think saying something like this to anyone would encourage them to.... "play better" ?? that kind of logic is so beyond me that I don't know where to start, like... at the end of the day we're here to play a game right? figure out who the werewolf is or win as werewolf. if you're not being productive in doing that, it's not necessary. i'm not saying we have to be talking about only the game in strict terms all the time bc that's not what makes the game fun. but berating somebody for being an idiot doesn't help your game or mine so why bother?


Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747492)
Also maybe this is me taking it too personal but if I'm more toxic again what even does that word mean anyway then any other player it's probably 95% because I actually have a decent post volume and everyone else is slanking. Bug's flip from unsure newbie to arrogance the moment he got cleared would be considered toxic to some people but since he spent the game largely not playing it until the last phase nobody is going to really care.

this is by far the worst take i've seen this entire thread. if you're so put off by someone literally learning how to play the game then why on earth would you play it? I straight up mentioned in the beginning that I was very unclear about how the game operated so my logic may be confusing/i may be dumb at times so god forbid I actually make progress in trying to learn.

it's also really funny to me that you interpreted me refusing to engage with your unproductive insults as me being cocky. it's actually not funny, it's really sad. had you ever considered that you weren't saying anything useful? because you weren't. you were constantly calling me an idiot saying my gameplay sucks and that I should try harder. why is that helpful to the game at all? I was never personally offended at the things anyone had to say to me, and i'm confused as to why people seem to think that's the issue at hand. the issue isn't emotions attached to the game, the issue is that half of you seem to think there isn't an issue in the first place.

these are just some things I really agreed with and think should be addressed more:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747611)
The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747637)
hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it


if you think there isn't an issue, then just go ahead and read the following exchange:

Quote:

Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4747575)
I think you didn't understand my post, like at all.

I've attempted to respond to this nicely like 50X, and I just can't

you literally cannot post more than like a fucking infant like that

you can't

Quote:

Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4747670)
You're fucking kidding right?

Is everyone here five? Two? How old is everyone? Maybe fresh out?

That's what it feels like.

How can no one read those posts and understand the amount of intentionally blowing it out of proportion for effect those posts are? It's not toxic, it's hyperbole.

I thought reading between the lines was a game mechanic, apparently everyone here is shockingly shit at it.

An actual pity imho.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747671)
that post is exactly the sort of thing we need less of, thank you for being an example of how not to behave

Quote:

Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4747677)
the real pity is that you're saying stuff like this outside of a twg thread.

you may still be living in the internet age of toxicity and cynicism being king, but there's something nice about being able to show people respect and kindness.

I think after collecting my thoughts, the clearest thing that I can say is - why does your TWG play and identity need to be based off of insulting and offending people, in a game of problem solving

I think we can rule out the idea that anyone wants straight up censorship, that's not productive at all and honestly that can potentially be really detrimental to the community at large. what I think would be productive is people asking themselves "is this productive for the game" because if it isn't, ask yourself why you're saying it in the first place.

for example, lewdy and raeko's banter towards each other never felt toxic to me. you can tell they're close friends just trying to get a rise out of each other and I don't really see anything wrong with that. what I do take issue with is people (because it was NOT just me) genuinely trying to be helpful and then people calling them an idiot and unhelpful. I saw this happen to funnygurl over and over again throughout the game as well, and of course I don't want to speak for her but it made me upset seeing her trying to play the game only to have a bunch of people come at her saying she sucked.

I don't have any real final thoughts here, just figured i'd contribute somewhat. but don't fool yourself into thinking that this toxicity thread was made because 3 people "bullied" me. even as an outsider I can see that this issue has very little to do directly with the last twg.

bugkid666 10-22-2020 08:42 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4746415)
Oh piss off. Not contributing is wolfy on FFR and at best anti-town everywhere else

You're doing jack all and Bug flipped from being meek and unsure to cocky and unhelpful on a dime the fucking moment Haku gave him an out. I don't want to hear your shit about how that isn't wolf behavior

We're at the point were you going "uh-huh, no you" is becoming the most you've done next to that near OMGUS vote on Xiz.

this is the quote that funnygurl and I were referring to btw sorry I didn't quote it directly above

flashflash account 10-22-2020 09:11 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
thanks for that insight bugkid, new players are always appreciated by the community even if it's not always apparent

bugkid666 10-23-2020 12:16 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4747834)
thanks for that insight bugkid, new players are always appreciated by the community even if it's not always apparent

thanks for saying that, I appreciate it. I don't want to seem ungrateful, I just had a few people asking me to state my opinion.
i've seen how welcoming this community can be through the survivor game which was (I think entirely) ffr users and primarily prior twg players. i've been so lucky to have found a new group of friends through xiz's game specifically.

but that being said, I think we definitely have to consider why "taking breaks" from a game that's supposed to be fun is so common on here.

flashflash account 10-23-2020 12:35 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I play semi-regularly on over a dozen different forums. TWG is just mentally and emotionally taxing and pretty much everyone who plays it consistently needs to take breaks from time to time to avoid burnout, it's not something unique to here at all

Hakulyte 10-23-2020 02:40 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bugkid666 (Post 4747832)
"is this productive for the game"

Yes, but no, but yes. (lol)

He's going for goal A of reading others/asking for reads which is a big yes.
He's failing goal B because the slight amount of toxicity work against rallying town together.
MML for me is fun to read even if he would yell at me because his posts feel genuine and I know 100% that all his intentions are toward playing the game and not something against the player.
I don't believe he genuinely hates anyone here.

So, you got an important point: what is productive for the game ? (I believe if people can answer and prove this, it might change how others play and even reduce toxicity.)
How do you separate your town folks from your wolves ?
How do you create that scenario where you put your stone in the middle and help town build that step ladder that leads to victory ?
I'll try to answer that for everyone here from my perspective really quick.
Why ? That's because I think it's highly relevant to the topic of toxicity.

How people are posting in games are an approximation of what they feel in the moment that is the best course of action in that direction.
If I think this way, it's very easy for me to understand how MML feel about the game.
It's not the cutest thing to read, but it feels genuine and if you look at the game objectively; he was the closest town player to get somewhere.
Is MML the reference for how to play and what to do ? No. Everyone has their own playstyle and that's okay.

There's players who post nicely, but don't make an impact.
They may have solved the entire game, but they didn't bring a megaphone with them to yell: "HEY, I THINK I FOUND SOMETHING IMPORTANT" or "I HAVE INFORMATION FOR ALL OF YOU".
This is the 2nd half of the game once you're done with reads.
Players need to rally the group together and come to mutual understanding.
This part was obviously going very poorly for honestly the entirety of town past the 2nd half of the game. (well, before you bury me alive; note that you did an excellent last phase and I was impressed.)
That feeling eventually converted into more negative/cynical posts because well, progress wasn't made in that direction at all.

Solving thoughts doesn't rally people. (but it does help a little)
Being afk doesn't rally people.
Saying things in a way make others feel negative doesn't rally people.
So, yeah. Even MML was wrong here.

People needs to switch to this "listening to each other" mentality and a lot of small things kept putting a wrench in that direction.
I personally kept being unsure how to make that happen because I had a lot of trouble establishing who is town and who isn't.
Town basically needed to be online at same time and come to a consensus of what to do together.
That couldn't happen because

A) Town wasn't online at same time except at EoD.
B) EoD kept going wrong from lack of preparation or uncertainty.

We needed more interactions that helps town solidifying itself as a group last game.
That could have shifted the momentum and the votes at multiple occasions.

I'm at the point where I feel like I must inevitably vote inactives because they make the game unwinnable due to how communication is vital in this game.
I feel like every time I try to be nice in that direction, it backfires.

tl;dr: A good leader is a good listener and everyone needs to consider becoming one after they're done with reads unless they're satisfied with what's going on with votes.
At least, that's how I feel about this game's "meta" in terms of what you should be doing for the wincon.
Unfortunately for most of you, I couldn't lead this game because I failed goal A pretty hard which was to properly read others and being read by others.
I think everyone town read me, but I couldn't town read others properly for various reasons.

ps: I think most of you have everything it takes to play this game successfully and help others improve their games.
It's not because some players are veterans that you have to conform to what they're doing.
On the contrary, if you helps us understand how to contribute into making this game as enjoyable as possible while playing. It's a big win/win.
I'll be happy to try to break the current meta if that's possible.

cedolad 10-23-2020 11:08 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Yall need hugs

Makilaz 10-23-2020 01:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I definitely could use a hug

Shadow_God_10 10-23-2020 03:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Free hugs here! Refund your hug coupon for a hug

Charu 10-23-2020 05:51 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Bird hugs are better

DaBackpack 10-23-2020 10:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I don't think rule changes will fix anything. The problem isn't "words", it's "spirit." If a person really wants to say something cruel and harmful to another player, they will find a way to skirt the rules. That's the nature of adversarial social relationships.

"More mods" isn't an answer either. It doesn't address the underlying issues of player toxicity. It really is convenient for us to imagine that our problems can be solved in a top-down manner-- that is, if somebody is being bad, that a mod will swoop in and save the day. Some base level of moderation is required when things really get out of hand (e.g. someone needs to be banned) but the fundamental problem we keep seeing is cultural and contextual. For example, there are things I would say to YoshL that I wouldn't ever say to Gradiant. How would you ever expect a single moderator to correctly interpret what "the line" is, when "the line" is completely different for each player dyad? The answer is, you can't. A top-down solution isn't going to suffice.

The players of the game need to be better at actively policing each other. If you take a step back and look at the "problem" posts in context, you'll notice that they didn't just come out of nowhere. There was an argument, some escalation that got you there. It should have been obvious to other players that, say, MML was escalating and bugkid was clearly uncomfortable, even before MML made his worst posts. Again, TWG isn't made up of posts, it's made up of conversations. If you, as a player, see somebody being made uncomfortable, it is YOUR JOB to speak out and de-escalate the conflict before someone crosses "the line".

Furthermore. As a player, it is your job to treat other players how they expect to be treated. Like I said, I treat different players differently depending on my relationship with them, as well as my differing mental models for them. I know that a player like Xelnya has a tough skin, so if things escalate between the two of us, I don't expect other players to de-facto police us (unless things get REALLY hostile, when I tell Xelyna to cut it the fuck OUT).

On the other hand, bugkid is a new player and most of us really don't know where bugkid's "line" is, so your default behavior should be respectful and dignified, until you and bugkid come to understand each other. And if you misjudge where bugkid's "line" is, our culture should allow for bugkid to speak up and defend themselves, or for other players to speak up to defuse the situation.

The answer to the problem is a culture shift, one where we ALL look out for each other ALWAYS, and we chastise and police each other in-game depending on specific contexts.

TL;DR: This answer is the same vein as "defund the police" IRL

the sun fan 10-24-2020 01:56 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I do think more mods will help not just in this area, but in others

having people who are active will help make decisions, which I expect there to be a good amount of early on

I somewhat disagree that moderation would have no effect/limited effect here

DaBackpack 10-25-2020 06:06 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the sun fan (Post 4747908)
I do think more mods will help not just in this area, but in others

having people who are active will help make decisions, which I expect there to be a good amount of early on

I somewhat disagree that moderation would have no effect/limited effect here

I'm not against more mods, I just think it doesn't help here. You add a new mod, then what happens? Again, this isn't a problem with the rules or TOS, it's about not being self-aware of how your words hurt others. If we were constantly dealing with rzr situations then I'd agree, but this is different.

What actually seems to be -happening- is that players get heated and go way too far. Honestly there aren't a whole lot of actively hostile characters in this community... it's just that the game very often brings out "that side" of everyone. Am I wrong? If this is accurate then rules changes or banning won't do anything. Like I said, the TWG rules and bans are for openly hostile and subversive players.

Everybody gets mad in this game, and everybody has different ways of expressing that with other players. Reactive hostility CAN and WILL happen, you can't just regulate around that. What we -need- is a general culture of respect and community-driven policing. Each player needs to be able to hear those words, "you're going too far, DBP", and reflexively understand that they are being a problem and hurting people's feelings. Like 80% of hostile rage in this game can be avoided or mitigated by being told to take a fucking break and come back with a clear mind.

Conflict resolution is a part of my job and I understand that sometimes it's embarrassing to openly admit that someone is hurting your feelings. Maybe it's the host's job to receive player complaints and then issue warnings on an ad-hoc basis in OOT. But at the end of the day, it's not administrative action that saves the day, it's a culture of support and decency.

DaBackpack 10-25-2020 06:12 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
To maybe be more concise, I think if you sat down any FFRTWG player in the middle of a game and told them that they were hurting someone's feelings or that they crossed the line, they would listen and try to correct it.

I've gotten heated in this game too, and sometimes I've made posts I've quickly come to regret. I try to make it a point to immediately apologize to the respective parties and prevent game derailment. I think most people would agree with me when I say that making low blows and harassing players doesn't actually feel good; it feels shitty, but it happens all the time, regardless of alignment. The key is having a social dynamic in place where hostile players can reliably be kept in check by other players (or maybe even the host).

mellonxcollie 10-25-2020 12:06 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I 100% agree with you DBP, but sometimes people don't listen or just ignore you calling them out...

it'd need to be an effort from every player not just one or two people in the game

the sun fan 10-25-2020 05:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack (Post 4747937)
To maybe be more concise, I think if you sat down any FFRTWG player in the middle of a game and told them that they were hurting someone's feelings or that they crossed the line, they would listen and try to correct it.

this is what I hope the future will look like

inDheart 10-26-2020 12:22 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i view more mods as a positive thing because am i wrong in saying the only current one who often currently clicks to this forum is sunfan, but i think it's a little unfair for him to be "on call" or something while he's playing the current game, as he often is (and when he isn't, he's usually busy or beating himself into being busy)

i wish everyone had the brain power to regret posts later but i'm not sure that is a thing that occurs to everyone in the community, and i think player attempts at intervention are seen more often as something that produces a read than a genuine desire for defusal. no i don't have examples of this

YoshL 10-26-2020 01:05 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i actually click the subforum a bunch, at least once every couple days lol

and I still usually take questions from game hosts if sunfan is playing regarding rulings and game resolution stuff

inDheart 10-28-2020 11:13 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
oh cool i've just been going "nah they're probably busy"

Makilaz 10-28-2020 04:27 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
this has been open for quite some time now, what's the plan timelinewise

are we keeping this open another indefinite period, are new mods a thing, are we going to do self policing instead, what's the dealio

Charu 10-28-2020 04:39 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
FFRTWG's been cancelled

Makilaz 10-28-2020 04:48 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Charu (Post 4748109)
FFRTWG's been cancelled

we had a good run lads

Funnygurl555 10-28-2020 05:01 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
vote me for mod

Bolth mannn 10-28-2020 11:45 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
funnygurl

the sun fan 10-30-2020 06:02 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
i'll be making a post addressing some/all things no later than Sunday, assuming I continue to have power

star-crossed 11-2-2020 07:44 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by roundbox (Post 4747602)
One aspect of our culture that isn't necessarily accommodating, I think, is something akin to an "old boys club," where only a certain sect of users are taken seriously in-game (and out-of-game, too). I know I belong to this since people frequently take my reads with more than a grain of salt instead of moving past them. I know that this post will be taken seriously, so that's why I think it's important for me to respond.
I think certain vets here and new users have a bias pressed against them for possible reasons of inexperience, lack of results, user demographics, or general lack of trust. For new users, I think the inexperience and trust stand out, and for veteran users, I think demographics and results stand out. I know I'm guilty of making judgment calls on people's reads because they've had a trend of being wrong. I've glanced past certain users because I perceived their skill to be low. I feel like I've improved on this and judged less, but implicit bias is hard to move past once someone has said something that rubbed you the wrong way at one point. One example that I feel stands out is Lar. When Lar first started, he had his Lar method of analyzing votes and whatnot, and I know he was the subject of some lines of ridicule. His method didn't seem to get results, and it seemed like he was a one-trick pony that was constantly or mostly wrong. However, I think Lar is a beast at the game now. I do think he is taken more seriously now, but he has results that got him out of that social rut. Some people are not as fortunate and have a hard time posting and being taken seriously. I think this is an issue that should get some attention as well.

In my opinion, the condescension you have described is definitely the most unpleasant aspect of this community. You explained it a lot better than I could have. I actually think FFR is the least toxic overall of the werewolf games I have tried.

the sun fan 11-9-2020 07:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Alright, this update is right on time, I promise

After some conferring, we've decided to go with two new mods, T-Force and Makilaz. Among the five of us, we will be discussing our ideas for managing toxicity.

Makilaz 11-9-2020 07:43 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
I am grateful for this opportunity and hope to make ffrtwg a better place for everyone

T-Force 11-9-2020 07:46 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Cheers. Makilaz summed up my thoughts as well.

mellonxcollie 11-9-2020 07:59 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Congrats guys!

XelNya 11-9-2020 08:27 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4748666)
I am grateful for this opportunity and hope to make ffrtwg a better place for everyone

You have already failed by default. I thought I'd let you know, so you could adjust your standards accordingly.

That said, congrats. Hopefully it goes well.

Makilaz 11-9-2020 08:29 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4748670)
You have already failed by default. I thought I'd let you know, so you could adjust your standards accordingly.

That said, congrats. Hopefully it goes well.

what is life if not an unceasing series of failures

Funnygurl555 11-10-2020 12:36 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 
all y'all really had to be out here appointing t-force over me tho. i see how it is

gl though i have faith that y'all will improve this community


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:17 AM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright FlashFlashRevolution