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-   -   On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG) (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=152456)

Wayward Vagabond 10-22-2020 02:09 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Originally Posted by mellonxcollie (Post 4747787)
Another suggestion I'd have is to rant at someone who is outside the game and the website entirely.

I rant about stuff constantly so even if I'm not particularly heated in TWG I'll sometimes rant to my parents about it. They have literally no idea what I'm talking about because their response every single time is "so are you a wolf?" but it still helps to sort my thoughts out and get things off my chest lol

I'm sorry but your parents response is so adorable and I love it

bugkid666 10-22-2020 08:37 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
ok i've read through this whole thread now (was avoiding it for obvious reasons) but I feel that i'm somewhat responsible for replying at some point.

first thing I want to say is that i'm honestly really uncomfortable with the fact that a lot of this thread has been focused on three people "attacking" me specifically when I really didn't see it that way. from my perspective, I wasn't personally hurt by the things people said to me during the game, most of it just felt completely unnecessary to playing the game. like mml's post that fg is referencing in this:


Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 (Post 4747595)
it didn't take me too long to find this

someone calling me cocky and unhelpful when i'm dipping my toes in the water would hurt my feelings

** actual quote posted below **

like why would you think saying something like this to anyone would encourage them to.... "play better" ?? that kind of logic is so beyond me that I don't know where to start, like... at the end of the day we're here to play a game right? figure out who the werewolf is or win as werewolf. if you're not being productive in doing that, it's not necessary. i'm not saying we have to be talking about only the game in strict terms all the time bc that's not what makes the game fun. but berating somebody for being an idiot doesn't help your game or mine so why bother?


Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4747492)
Also maybe this is me taking it too personal but if I'm more toxic again what even does that word mean anyway then any other player it's probably 95% because I actually have a decent post volume and everyone else is slanking. Bug's flip from unsure newbie to arrogance the moment he got cleared would be considered toxic to some people but since he spent the game largely not playing it until the last phase nobody is going to really care.

this is by far the worst take i've seen this entire thread. if you're so put off by someone literally learning how to play the game then why on earth would you play it? I straight up mentioned in the beginning that I was very unclear about how the game operated so my logic may be confusing/i may be dumb at times so god forbid I actually make progress in trying to learn.

it's also really funny to me that you interpreted me refusing to engage with your unproductive insults as me being cocky. it's actually not funny, it's really sad. had you ever considered that you weren't saying anything useful? because you weren't. you were constantly calling me an idiot saying my gameplay sucks and that I should try harder. why is that helpful to the game at all? I was never personally offended at the things anyone had to say to me, and i'm confused as to why people seem to think that's the issue at hand. the issue isn't emotions attached to the game, the issue is that half of you seem to think there isn't an issue in the first place.

these are just some things I really agreed with and think should be addressed more:


Originally Posted by Bolth mannn (Post 4747611)
The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.


Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747637)
hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it

if you think there isn't an issue, then just go ahead and read the following exchange:


Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4747575)
I think you didn't understand my post, like at all.

I've attempted to respond to this nicely like 50X, and I just can't

you literally cannot post more than like a fucking infant like that

you can't


Originally Posted by XelNya (Post 4747670)
You're fucking kidding right?

Is everyone here five? Two? How old is everyone? Maybe fresh out?

That's what it feels like.

How can no one read those posts and understand the amount of intentionally blowing it out of proportion for effect those posts are? It's not toxic, it's hyperbole.

I thought reading between the lines was a game mechanic, apparently everyone here is shockingly shit at it.

An actual pity imho.


Originally Posted by Makilaz (Post 4747671)
that post is exactly the sort of thing we need less of, thank you for being an example of how not to behave


Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4747677)
the real pity is that you're saying stuff like this outside of a twg thread.

you may still be living in the internet age of toxicity and cynicism being king, but there's something nice about being able to show people respect and kindness.

I think after collecting my thoughts, the clearest thing that I can say is - why does your TWG play and identity need to be based off of insulting and offending people, in a game of problem solving

I think we can rule out the idea that anyone wants straight up censorship, that's not productive at all and honestly that can potentially be really detrimental to the community at large. what I think would be productive is people asking themselves "is this productive for the game" because if it isn't, ask yourself why you're saying it in the first place.

for example, lewdy and raeko's banter towards each other never felt toxic to me. you can tell they're close friends just trying to get a rise out of each other and I don't really see anything wrong with that. what I do take issue with is people (because it was NOT just me) genuinely trying to be helpful and then people calling them an idiot and unhelpful. I saw this happen to funnygurl over and over again throughout the game as well, and of course I don't want to speak for her but it made me upset seeing her trying to play the game only to have a bunch of people come at her saying she sucked.

I don't have any real final thoughts here, just figured i'd contribute somewhat. but don't fool yourself into thinking that this toxicity thread was made because 3 people "bullied" me. even as an outsider I can see that this issue has very little to do directly with the last twg.

bugkid666 10-22-2020 08:42 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Originally Posted by MixMasterLar (Post 4746415)
Oh piss off. Not contributing is wolfy on FFR and at best anti-town everywhere else

You're doing jack all and Bug flipped from being meek and unsure to cocky and unhelpful on a dime the fucking moment Haku gave him an out. I don't want to hear your shit about how that isn't wolf behavior

We're at the point were you going "uh-huh, no you" is becoming the most you've done next to that near OMGUS vote on Xiz.

this is the quote that funnygurl and I were referring to btw sorry I didn't quote it directly above

flashflash account 10-22-2020 09:11 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
thanks for that insight bugkid, new players are always appreciated by the community even if it's not always apparent

bugkid666 10-23-2020 12:16 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4747834)
thanks for that insight bugkid, new players are always appreciated by the community even if it's not always apparent

thanks for saying that, I appreciate it. I don't want to seem ungrateful, I just had a few people asking me to state my opinion.
i've seen how welcoming this community can be through the survivor game which was (I think entirely) ffr users and primarily prior twg players. i've been so lucky to have found a new group of friends through xiz's game specifically.

but that being said, I think we definitely have to consider why "taking breaks" from a game that's supposed to be fun is so common on here.

flashflash account 10-23-2020 12:35 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
I play semi-regularly on over a dozen different forums. TWG is just mentally and emotionally taxing and pretty much everyone who plays it consistently needs to take breaks from time to time to avoid burnout, it's not something unique to here at all

Hakulyte 10-23-2020 02:40 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Originally Posted by bugkid666 (Post 4747832)
"is this productive for the game"

Yes, but no, but yes. (lol)

He's going for goal A of reading others/asking for reads which is a big yes.
He's failing goal B because the slight amount of toxicity work against rallying town together.
MML for me is fun to read even if he would yell at me because his posts feel genuine and I know 100% that all his intentions are toward playing the game and not something against the player.
I don't believe he genuinely hates anyone here.

So, you got an important point: what is productive for the game ? (I believe if people can answer and prove this, it might change how others play and even reduce toxicity.)
How do you separate your town folks from your wolves ?
How do you create that scenario where you put your stone in the middle and help town build that step ladder that leads to victory ?
I'll try to answer that for everyone here from my perspective really quick.
Why ? That's because I think it's highly relevant to the topic of toxicity.

How people are posting in games are an approximation of what they feel in the moment that is the best course of action in that direction.
If I think this way, it's very easy for me to understand how MML feel about the game.
It's not the cutest thing to read, but it feels genuine and if you look at the game objectively; he was the closest town player to get somewhere.
Is MML the reference for how to play and what to do ? No. Everyone has their own playstyle and that's okay.

There's players who post nicely, but don't make an impact.
They may have solved the entire game, but they didn't bring a megaphone with them to yell: "HEY, I THINK I FOUND SOMETHING IMPORTANT" or "I HAVE INFORMATION FOR ALL OF YOU".
This is the 2nd half of the game once you're done with reads.
Players need to rally the group together and come to mutual understanding.
This part was obviously going very poorly for honestly the entirety of town past the 2nd half of the game. (well, before you bury me alive; note that you did an excellent last phase and I was impressed.)
That feeling eventually converted into more negative/cynical posts because well, progress wasn't made in that direction at all.

Solving thoughts doesn't rally people. (but it does help a little)
Being afk doesn't rally people.
Saying things in a way make others feel negative doesn't rally people.
So, yeah. Even MML was wrong here.

People needs to switch to this "listening to each other" mentality and a lot of small things kept putting a wrench in that direction.
I personally kept being unsure how to make that happen because I had a lot of trouble establishing who is town and who isn't.
Town basically needed to be online at same time and come to a consensus of what to do together.
That couldn't happen because

A) Town wasn't online at same time except at EoD.
B) EoD kept going wrong from lack of preparation or uncertainty.

We needed more interactions that helps town solidifying itself as a group last game.
That could have shifted the momentum and the votes at multiple occasions.

I'm at the point where I feel like I must inevitably vote inactives because they make the game unwinnable due to how communication is vital in this game.
I feel like every time I try to be nice in that direction, it backfires.

tl;dr: A good leader is a good listener and everyone needs to consider becoming one after they're done with reads unless they're satisfied with what's going on with votes.
At least, that's how I feel about this game's "meta" in terms of what you should be doing for the wincon.
Unfortunately for most of you, I couldn't lead this game because I failed goal A pretty hard which was to properly read others and being read by others.
I think everyone town read me, but I couldn't town read others properly for various reasons.

ps: I think most of you have everything it takes to play this game successfully and help others improve their games.
It's not because some players are veterans that you have to conform to what they're doing.
On the contrary, if you helps us understand how to contribute into making this game as enjoyable as possible while playing. It's a big win/win.
I'll be happy to try to break the current meta if that's possible.

cedolad 10-23-2020 11:08 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
Yall need hugs

Makilaz 10-23-2020 01:13 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
I definitely could use a hug

Shadow_God_10 10-23-2020 03:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
Free hugs here! Refund your hug coupon for a hug

Charu 10-23-2020 05:51 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
Bird hugs are better

DaBackpack 10-23-2020 10:38 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
I don't think rule changes will fix anything. The problem isn't "words", it's "spirit." If a person really wants to say something cruel and harmful to another player, they will find a way to skirt the rules. That's the nature of adversarial social relationships.

"More mods" isn't an answer either. It doesn't address the underlying issues of player toxicity. It really is convenient for us to imagine that our problems can be solved in a top-down manner-- that is, if somebody is being bad, that a mod will swoop in and save the day. Some base level of moderation is required when things really get out of hand (e.g. someone needs to be banned) but the fundamental problem we keep seeing is cultural and contextual. For example, there are things I would say to YoshL that I wouldn't ever say to Gradiant. How would you ever expect a single moderator to correctly interpret what "the line" is, when "the line" is completely different for each player dyad? The answer is, you can't. A top-down solution isn't going to suffice.

The players of the game need to be better at actively policing each other. If you take a step back and look at the "problem" posts in context, you'll notice that they didn't just come out of nowhere. There was an argument, some escalation that got you there. It should have been obvious to other players that, say, MML was escalating and bugkid was clearly uncomfortable, even before MML made his worst posts. Again, TWG isn't made up of posts, it's made up of conversations. If you, as a player, see somebody being made uncomfortable, it is YOUR JOB to speak out and de-escalate the conflict before someone crosses "the line".

Furthermore. As a player, it is your job to treat other players how they expect to be treated. Like I said, I treat different players differently depending on my relationship with them, as well as my differing mental models for them. I know that a player like Xelnya has a tough skin, so if things escalate between the two of us, I don't expect other players to de-facto police us (unless things get REALLY hostile, when I tell Xelyna to cut it the fuck OUT).

On the other hand, bugkid is a new player and most of us really don't know where bugkid's "line" is, so your default behavior should be respectful and dignified, until you and bugkid come to understand each other. And if you misjudge where bugkid's "line" is, our culture should allow for bugkid to speak up and defend themselves, or for other players to speak up to defuse the situation.

The answer to the problem is a culture shift, one where we ALL look out for each other ALWAYS, and we chastise and police each other in-game depending on specific contexts.

TL;DR: This answer is the same vein as "defund the police" IRL

the sun fan 10-24-2020 01:56 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
I do think more mods will help not just in this area, but in others

having people who are active will help make decisions, which I expect there to be a good amount of early on

I somewhat disagree that moderation would have no effect/limited effect here

DaBackpack 10-25-2020 06:06 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Originally Posted by the sun fan (Post 4747908)
I do think more mods will help not just in this area, but in others

having people who are active will help make decisions, which I expect there to be a good amount of early on

I somewhat disagree that moderation would have no effect/limited effect here

I'm not against more mods, I just think it doesn't help here. You add a new mod, then what happens? Again, this isn't a problem with the rules or TOS, it's about not being self-aware of how your words hurt others. If we were constantly dealing with rzr situations then I'd agree, but this is different.

What actually seems to be -happening- is that players get heated and go way too far. Honestly there aren't a whole lot of actively hostile characters in this community... it's just that the game very often brings out "that side" of everyone. Am I wrong? If this is accurate then rules changes or banning won't do anything. Like I said, the TWG rules and bans are for openly hostile and subversive players.

Everybody gets mad in this game, and everybody has different ways of expressing that with other players. Reactive hostility CAN and WILL happen, you can't just regulate around that. What we -need- is a general culture of respect and community-driven policing. Each player needs to be able to hear those words, "you're going too far, DBP", and reflexively understand that they are being a problem and hurting people's feelings. Like 80% of hostile rage in this game can be avoided or mitigated by being told to take a fucking break and come back with a clear mind.

Conflict resolution is a part of my job and I understand that sometimes it's embarrassing to openly admit that someone is hurting your feelings. Maybe it's the host's job to receive player complaints and then issue warnings on an ad-hoc basis in OOT. But at the end of the day, it's not administrative action that saves the day, it's a culture of support and decency.

DaBackpack 10-25-2020 06:12 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
To maybe be more concise, I think if you sat down any FFRTWG player in the middle of a game and told them that they were hurting someone's feelings or that they crossed the line, they would listen and try to correct it.

I've gotten heated in this game too, and sometimes I've made posts I've quickly come to regret. I try to make it a point to immediately apologize to the respective parties and prevent game derailment. I think most people would agree with me when I say that making low blows and harassing players doesn't actually feel good; it feels shitty, but it happens all the time, regardless of alignment. The key is having a social dynamic in place where hostile players can reliably be kept in check by other players (or maybe even the host).

mellonxcollie 10-25-2020 12:06 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
I 100% agree with you DBP, but sometimes people don't listen or just ignore you calling them out...

it'd need to be an effort from every player not just one or two people in the game

the sun fan 10-25-2020 05:28 PM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)

Originally Posted by DaBackpack (Post 4747937)
To maybe be more concise, I think if you sat down any FFRTWG player in the middle of a game and told them that they were hurting someone's feelings or that they crossed the line, they would listen and try to correct it.

this is what I hope the future will look like

inDheart 10-26-2020 12:22 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
i view more mods as a positive thing because am i wrong in saying the only current one who often currently clicks to this forum is sunfan, but i think it's a little unfair for him to be "on call" or something while he's playing the current game, as he often is (and when he isn't, he's usually busy or beating himself into being busy)

i wish everyone had the brain power to regret posts later but i'm not sure that is a thing that occurs to everyone in the community, and i think player attempts at intervention are seen more often as something that produces a read than a genuine desire for defusal. no i don't have examples of this

YoshL 10-26-2020 01:05 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
i actually click the subforum a bunch, at least once every couple days lol

and I still usually take questions from game hosts if sunfan is playing regarding rulings and game resolution stuff

inDheart 10-28-2020 11:13 AM

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
oh cool i've just been going "nah they're probably busy"

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