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-   -   League of Legends [v2] (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=132864)

Magicturbo 05-22-2014 04:41 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Remember when NA was like the EU is now

Razor 05-23-2014 12:19 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
probably the most lopsided team builder game i've ever played (all plat/dia vs. all bronze/silver) LOOOL


Razor 05-24-2014 12:39 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
First day of LCS was amazing!

I was jumping out of my chair watching LMQ vs. CLG. That game was intense, but I know XiaoWeiXiao is a god and would carry. He easily outclasses any other midlaner in NA.

(also dat 71 points to my fantasy LCS team, XWX and Vasilii doin' work.)

2-0 baby, we gun' 4-0 this super week.

Just watch.

All the fan boys will jump on the Chinese hype train.

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 01:38 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
CLG vs LMQ was the hypest game of League I've watched in a long time.
Link clearly still hasn't lost his Faker buff, that was an incredible Nidalee from him.

I wasn't even mad at the CLG throws, because it made the game fantastically entertaining.
I was so torn between really liking Seraph and the new CLG, and being a fan of LMQ too. I wish them both the best... down with TSM! :P

Razor 05-24-2014 01:44 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
TSM is definitely going to be a bottom 4 team this split.

Amazing didn't do too hot, especially considering how LemonNation scouted him and banned all of the junglers he plays (and they fp'd Lee Sin) just to add even more pressure on him.

Gleeb isn't mechanically up to par with the other supports in the LCS. It seems as if he can only play Thresh, and if that's taken.. he's fucked, haha.

Definitely an interesting first day, can't wait for tomorrow's and Sunday's games.

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 01:46 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
My buddies looked at me weird when I said TSM would be 4th after C9, CLG and LMQ, but I still think that's a very likely result.
They seem Dignitas/Curse-tier now, and I wouldn't be surprised to see Dignitas pull ahead of them too. (All my love for Dignitoast, what a great group of dudes haha)

Razor 05-24-2014 01:46 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
relevant


hi19hi19 05-24-2014 01:51 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Also relevant: My friend told me that XiaoWeiXiao is basically the Pillsbury Doughboy that plays League and cusses, and now I can't see him any other way.


WATER FAK!?

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 03:19 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
ogn lag

groan

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 03:55 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
At least the game is pretty good so far.

EDIT- holy shit

the lags

the throws

quite a game

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 04:17 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
fuck this series is going to be good

e: holy fuck the hype is so fucking real

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 04:48 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
More like the lag is so fucking real. I feel bad for anyone who is subbed to this shit lol

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 04:52 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
how can there be so much lag when there's only one froggen in the world

PriestREA 05-24-2014 05:12 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
rip my $7.99

Razor 05-24-2014 01:38 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4139617)
Also relevant: My friend told me that XiaoWeiXiao is basically the Pillsbury Doughboy that plays League and cusses, and now I can't see him any other way.


WATER FAK!?

XiaoWeiXiao juss always smilin

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 03:37 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
God damn TSM vs CRS was quite

TSM outdrafts CRS and then wins the early game...
Then commences a 30 minute EU style throw carousel.

The most interesting part of the game IMO was when Xpecial rejected Turtle's hug...

Razor 05-24-2014 03:40 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
LMQ lets go baby

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 03:58 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
i think col is going to be the definitive 8th place team

honestly i'd have more fun watching lmq play against bots

Razor 05-24-2014 03:59 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
yeah... definitely agree lmao

game was p much decided after Ackerman's triple kill at bot lane

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 04:03 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
I have a fantasy league with 2 of my friends (and one of their roommates)

We decided that the winner would be the person with the least points.

My team is mostly Gambit and CoL, I'm liking my odds so far.


EDIT-
In case you were wondering my team is:
Soaz
Brokenshard
NiQ
Robertxlee
Edward

Snoopeh as Flex
Complexity as Team

Subs:
Unlimited
Svenskeren
Quas

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 04:09 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
man i wonder what riv's thought processes while casting are

"well khazix is almost dead but he isn't so he has at least 1 hp... i should announce my revelations to the world"

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 04:14 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
God I hate Rivington's casting so much.
People have called his casting style "word salad" but my problem with that term is that sometimes salad is pretty and delicious, while his casting is not. Ever.
I prefer "word diarrhea" which more evokes the feeling of "holy shit I have to mute this retard" that I get every time he opens his mouth.

Seriously some games, he just makes it completely unwatchable for me unless I mute.

Deidara837 05-24-2014 04:16 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
LMQ's last game is vs. Curse, haha

Both they and C9 can go 4-0 np

Razor 05-24-2014 04:24 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
315 CS to 161 CS

lol...

XWX just fucked pr0lly up so hard and made him irrelevant the entire game

I'm just hype to see them against C9 now. At this rate, I know they can take a game off of TSM for sure.

Deidara837 05-24-2014 04:37 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
LMQ is essentially playing the bottom 4 teams (I dunno, Seraph didn't do anything special)

Those upcoming games next week should be really exciting

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 06:28 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
I love seeing Dyrus' levels of shit-giving reach Darien lows.

Fountain diving with Mejias Blue Elixir Renekton...
I always worry when the old favorite players start to not have fun anymore so I'm glad to see he can still enjoy himself.

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 06:36 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
god col is just going to be mineski for an entire split

Razor 05-24-2014 06:40 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
maybe they can pull an Alliance




lol yeah right

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 07:11 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Oh god Dignitoast is toasting C9

I have to go eat dinner, my heart cant handle the possibility they throw this.
Imagine Dig beating C9, what that would do for Dignitas's confidence.
The hype!

EDIT- holy shit Crumbzz is a god

EDIT2- dat dignitas

MinaciousGrace 05-24-2014 08:18 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
rotatoe'd

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 08:25 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Yeah that was a pretty nice rotation ognTSM and all that


BUT DID YOU SEE THAT DIGNITAS
Cloud 9 5th place loooool my donger is fully raised

Trogdor!!!! 05-24-2014 10:24 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
mfw Dignitoast 3-0 first place tie

hi19hi19 05-24-2014 11:32 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Trogdor!!!! (Post 4139874)
mfw Dignitoast 3-0 first place tie

Highly relevant:

Razor 05-24-2014 11:34 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
that was probably the best game i've ever seen Dignitas play

Razor 05-24-2014 11:35 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
it also greatly annoys me how no one bans Morgana against LemonNation, like come the fuck on

are you gonna let that dude play her every single fuckin game of the split

hi19hi19 05-25-2014 12:32 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
I feel like if you target Lemon, like ban Morgana, Karma, and Zyra then firstpick Thresh, you'd deeply fuck C9's botlane. To me, he never seemed at home on Annie, Leona, that kind of champ.

Yeah then the rest of C9 gets whatever they want, but that's nothing new.
They all obviously have deep champion pools, might as well target the one person who hasn't shown their depth yet.

colt.45 05-25-2014 07:41 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Probably streaming tonight at 7 pm pacific time!

I hit 250 followers after 3 streams so im giving away a Pulsefire Ezreal Statue.

http://www.twitch.tv/thelegendofbella


Also I also wondered why no one bans morgana. Lemon is amazing w/ Morg.

hi19hi19 05-25-2014 02:54 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Holy fuck I'm watching this LCS match and all I can think is

PLEASE FIRE RIVINGTON

His inane babble makes it impossible to watch with volume on, that's not even counting the times he gets stuff even a bronze 5 player would know completely wrong

Coolboyrulez0 05-25-2014 04:26 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
lmfao this game (col vs c9)

also might hit 500+ points first week fantasy #easy

meno_rocks123 05-25-2014 05:02 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Started playing this game casually about two months ago. Playing a bit more seriously now.
ign: ActionPhilip
soloQ rank: silver 3
Preferred role: Not mid.

Razor 05-25-2014 06:52 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
LMQ 4-0 baby the dream is real

I also cannot believe C9 lost to Complexity, rofl

hi19hi19 05-25-2014 07:03 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
This is how I feel about NA LCS right now:


Litodude 05-27-2014 03:31 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
AITE SUP YA FUCKS

CHECK OUT DEM PIX AND MERCH THO





full albums:
http://imgur.com/a/pq6XW
http://imgur.com/a/CPdV0

hi19hi19 05-28-2014 12:19 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Pentakill album leaked.

https://www.hmvdigital.ca/releases/3489928

Singer is Jørn Lande, confirmed on Reddit by a Rioter.
People are guessing some of the other instrumentals are by Masterplan.

Surprisingly badass music for being about LoL items.

Xiz 05-28-2014 12:20 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
You ninja'd me hi19. I fucking am listening to this shit now. So gooooood

hi19hi19 05-28-2014 12:21 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Dare I say, steppable? :P

Xiz 05-28-2014 12:23 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
I wanna ask for ffr permission lmfao

L.B.D.D 05-28-2014 01:38 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
aeronautics........................

ReikonKeiri 05-28-2014 10:36 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Back in the Burn is an awesome song

Razor 05-28-2014 02:17 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
album's pretty cool

Razor 05-29-2014 01:19 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
how to be suspended airborne for about 5 seconds ft. 10 yasuos

Coolboyrulez0 05-29-2014 01:41 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
yasuo nida etc all boring as fuck

zac was the funnest so far

L.B.D.D 05-29-2014 03:47 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
return of salieri........???




return of zac..

MinaciousGrace 05-29-2014 04:00 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
just did this with trundle

fucking hilarious

hi19hi19 05-29-2014 05:39 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Jarvans. That is all.


So many missed EQs. So much "helping." So much laughter.

Deidara837 05-29-2014 06:38 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Nid and Vel'koz were some of the most annoying games I've played

MinaciousGrace 05-29-2014 07:32 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
yea im pretty sure any game involving traditionally top tier aram champs is going to be boring as shit

ended up playing a tf game and that was ok because i just went full tank and charged into the enemy team without giving a fuck and they couldn't do anything about it

but i can't imagine having to play a game where not only is it disadvantageous to force fights but nearly impossible due to ranged waveclear and lack of cc

thankfully most of my games thus far have been melees and it's nice to not have to worry about resigning yourself to a loss at the loading screen because the enemy just randoms an unapproachable team

hi19hi19 05-29-2014 09:26 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
All melee bruisers/tanks is the best.
Amumus was stupidly entertaining. Definitely up there with Zacs and Jarvans.

I haven't had a game of Leonas yet but I see that being a blast too.

Basically you want people with no ranged waveclear and no escapes. Go hard 24/7.


EDIT- I just had a Nautilus game, most of the enemies went AP or tanky AP but one of them went full AD carry Naut.
His name was "Best Hooker" (great name btw) so my friend and I were just yelling on Skype for the past 10 minutes, "KILL THE HOOKER!"
Great fun.

Xiz 05-29-2014 09:28 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
thresh is fun.

NFD 05-29-2014 09:49 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
plat is garbage

choof 05-29-2014 10:10 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
posting after nfd

choof 05-29-2014 10:10 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
posting before litodude

hi19hi19 05-29-2014 11:35 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
wow you guys are all shitters

i am so much better than you

because you are all bad







hey guys im streaming
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L.B.D.D 05-30-2014 02:28 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
ur all fuckin trash !!!!!!!!!!!!

not even leftover bannaana

like straight up trash from uganda

Coolboyrulez0 05-30-2014 09:52 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
ya but what uganda do about it ?

Razor 05-30-2014 01:03 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
i'm loling at all the scrublords crying about "blue side has a camera/vision advantage" because theyre too shit to play on purple side !!

hi19hi19 05-30-2014 05:24 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
If anything I'm more annoyed about firstpick/firstban inequality and dragon/baron pit inequality than camera angle.

SR should be mirrored across a vertical axis like TT or Heroes of the Storm maps (which are balanced just naturally) instead of diagonally mirrored, Riot with the A+ design decisions.

stargroup100 05-30-2014 05:39 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143117)
SR should be vertically mirrored like TT or Heroes of the Storm maps (which are balanced just naturally) instead of diagonally mirrored, Riot with the A+ design decisions.

this would either create very large unused sections of the map and UI or the map design would have to be completely changed

in terms of design, the shape and positioning of the map gives it a lot of room for positive features that promote healthy gameplay, and in this context outweighs the advantages for how it's oriented

unless riot sucks at coding and there's something unbalanced, camera angle doesn't mean jack shit unless there's significant obstruction, which is a fairly minor issue in league

hi19hi19 05-30-2014 06:02 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Yeah the UI would have to be completely changed to accomodate the four small triangles at the side of the minimap that would be created.

I see absolutely no other issues with it. Positive features that promote healthy gameplay? Like red side having three natural entrances to the Baron area compared to blue's four? Like blue side's easy botlane access to a redbuff? And red side's much stronger bluebuff control with the dragon being right there next to it?

EDIT- I mean, unless you're making the argument that huge map imbalances are interesting, which I guess you could, imperfect balance and all that... But there's absolutely NO argument that it's competitively equal this way.

stargroup100 05-31-2014 03:36 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143132)
But there's absolutely NO argument that it's competitively equal this way.

If you wanna go there, chess isn't competitively equal either. It's possible that either player could be able to force a win once the game is solved. So why is it not a problem? Because the game is far too complicated to be solved, so absolute balance is not relevant.

And that makes sense too. If you could achieve absolute balance and prove it, then you basically solved the game. A solved game isn't very competitive (or at least isn't strategically rich).

The case with camera angle is an example of this. Sure, it might give one side a slight edge, but unless we're finding out that in the competitive scene one side is really winning more often regardless of other factors, then it's not a problem.

Riot used to have tons of map issues. Remember when Baron was in the back of the pit? Remember when you could push the dragon around? All of the changes they made were meant to balance out the map.

hi19hi19 05-31-2014 07:42 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143416)
Riot used to have tons of map issues. Remember when Baron was in the back of the pit? Remember when you could push the dragon around? All of the changes they made were meant to balance out the map.

Wow, they've changed so much, yay. Guess what, that's completely irrelevant to the argument because the problem still exists.
Nice red herring there m8

Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143416)
If you wanna go there, chess isn't competitively equal either. It's possible that either player could be able to force a win once the game is solved. So why is it not a problem? Because the game is far too complicated to be solved, so absolute balance is not relevant.

And that makes sense too. If you could achieve absolute balance and prove it, then you basically solved the game. A solved game isn't very competitive (or at least isn't strategically rich).

The fact a game is too complicated to be solved should not stop a designer from making a change that would bring it closer to absolute balance without reducing any strategic complexity. I mean, I'm really trying to understand this from your point of view here but I can't think of any meaningful strategic depth that would have been lost by rotating the map 45 degrees.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143416)
The case with camera angle is an example of this. Sure, it might give one side a slight edge, but unless we're finding out that in the competitive scene one side is really winning more often regardless of other factors, then it's not a problem.

95 red side wins vs 129 blue side wins in the 2014 Spring LCS main season. Teams play equal numbers of times on both sides, so it's not that blue side got all the good players or something.
That's a 57.6% winrate for blue during the season, which went up to 61% in the playoffs.
In before complaining about sample size...
Try going back to the 2013 LCS. Similar numbers. Want more? Go back to August 2012 and we have this nice article from Krepo complaining about the same shit.

It's very fucking obvious that blue side is winning more in the competitive scene and it's laughable that you are even arguing that is not the case.


p.s. I'll agree with Razor that complaining to Riot isn't going to do much. Their game is already such a piece of shit in terms of coding that it's pretty far fetched to imagine them just magically implementing a way to rotate the camera without it breaking something and/or everything (despite the fact it kinda already works). The logical thing to do is just suck it up, know you have a disadvantage when you get red side, and learn to play better to overcome it instead of complaining.

But that doesn't mean we can't discuss why that's a terrible design decision with real effects on the game's competitiveness. My argument is that it was a poor initial design decision to have the map be mirrored diagonally, and I've yet to hear specifics on what additional meaningful strategic depth and healthy gameplay this design choice offered.

MinaciousGrace 05-31-2014 10:29 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
aion of strife was diagonally mirrored
so dota was diagonally mirrored
so hon was diagonally mirrored
so lol was diagonally mirrored

there really isnt much more to the issue than that

Litodude 05-31-2014 10:41 AM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
to me it just sounds like someone's mad because theyt aren't good at the game hehe

Litodude 05-31-2014 01:07 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 

da dream

stargroup100 05-31-2014 03:41 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143442)
Wow, they've changed so much, yay. Guess what, that's completely irrelevant to the argument because the problem still exists.
Nice red herring there m8

Remember that I said that absolute balance is not possible. My mentioning of these things is not to show that the map is now balanced, it's to explain that Riot is already aware of these issues and is taking measures to solve them. You seem to be very concerned with competitive balance, so I'm reassuring you that Riot is already doing the best they can and doing a good job.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143442)
The fact a game is too complicated to be solved should not stop a designer from making a change that would bring it closer to absolute balance without reducing any strategic complexity. I mean, I'm really trying to understand this from your point of view here but I can't think of any meaningful strategic depth that would have been lost by rotating the map 45 degrees.

Another point I didn't mention yet is that the amount of effort is takes to rotate the map plus other less significant (but still important) issues such as public relations makes it not worth doing because the advantages are so insignificant. Though I do realize you mention this later on yourself too. It's like running 80 miles for a dollar. Yeah, you're a dollar richer, but it's not worth the effort.

But again, absolute balance cannot be achieved and we don't know where it is. For most competitive games with rich strategic depth, balance comes from a Bayesian kind of analysis. You take the probabilities and payoffs of each strategy and weigh them appropriately. To achieve the best possible, most realistic balance, you want the expected payoff of each player to be as close to 0 as possible.

This means that a lot of social factors play into this, as flavor picks and strategies change the probability of other strategies, changing the expected payoff. Rock, paper, scissors is a game where you can outplay the opponent and read them perfectly and win by a large margin, but due to the probabilities the expected payoff for each player is always 0 (1/3 + 0 - 1/3), so the game is balanced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143442)
It's very fucking obvious that blue side is winning more in the competitive scene and it's laughable that you are even arguing that is not the case.

I never said one side isn't balanced. I said that changing the camera angle doesn't fix this problem in this slightest.

Do you honestly think, realistically, that rotating this map by 45 degrees is going to even out or even significantly change that win ratio?


Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143442)
But that doesn't mean we can't discuss why that's a terrible design decision with real effects on the game's competitiveness. My argument is that it was a poor initial design decision to have the map be mirrored diagonally, and I've yet to hear specifics on what additional meaningful strategic depth and healthy gameplay this design choice offered.

Just to reiterate what I said before, Game design mechanics go further than just strategy. You also have to think about what is beneficial to the player, in terms of what makes playing the game easier to understand, more transparent, what is more fun to the player, etc. My whole point this entire time is that camera angle is an insignificant factor to competitive balance, so the choice of camera angle should be determined by these other factors.

NFD 05-31-2014 05:51 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 

hi19hi19 05-31-2014 06:13 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace (Post 4143486)
aion of strife was diagonally mirrored
so dota was diagonally mirrored
so hon was diagonally mirrored
so lol was diagonally mirrored

there really isnt much more to the issue than that

So because something has been shit for years past, that means we're forced to have it be shit in the future? Gr8 thinking there.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143600)
Another point I didn't mention yet is that the amount of effort is takes to rotate the map plus other less significant (but still important) issues such as public relations makes it not worth doing because the advantages are so insignificant.

That's why I said they should have gone with horizontal mirror as an initial design decision. I agree, it's way too late to change it now, that's why I NEVER SAID they should go about changing it now.
I brought it up saying the map should be that way, not that they should change it now. I'm talking about the value of the design decision, not something Riot should do tomorrow.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143600)
Do you honestly think, realistically, that rotating this map by 45 degrees is going to even out or even significantly change that win ratio?

Yes, very much so.
Even on one for all mirror mode on Howling Abyss, blue side has a much higher win rate. That's been the key insight recently that has caused all this discussion.
Since champion picks are all equal, pick/ban phase is perfectly equal, objective placement on the map is perfectly equal, literally all that remains to cause the observed imbalance is camera angle.
Therefore, changing the camera angle should have a positive effect on game balance.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143600)
Just to reiterate what I said before, Game design mechanics go further than just strategy. You also have to think about what is beneficial to the player, in terms of what makes playing the game easier to understand, more transparent, what is more fun to the player, etc.

I mean, you make my argument for me right here:
It is not beneficial to the player to have the UI and foreground elements in the way.
There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way.
It is harder to understand what is going on when the UI and foreground elements are in the way and your field of vision on the lane is smaller.
Game is less fun when a key move you could have made was interrupted by having the UI in the way.
You can shrink the UI all you want, it's still more in the way when you are playing red side than blue, along with the field of view being suboptimal for red side. Thus the imbalance in win rates. Simple as that.
Quote:

Originally Posted by Litodude (Post 4143489)
to me it just sounds like someone's mad because theyt aren't good at the game hehe

I would not be surprised if over half your post count was this exact post.

stargroup100 05-31-2014 07:26 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143644)
That's why I said they should have gone with horizontal mirror as an initial design decision.

Yeah it's really easy to imagine how much impact camera angle would have on a third-person overhead MOBA game. Clearly they should've figured this out while they were designing the game from the beginning.
Even if you were right, hindsight is 20/20.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143644)
Yes, very much so.

I guess we'll agree to disagree here then. Correlation does not imply causation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143644)
Since champion picks are all equal, pick/ban phase is perfectly equal, objective placement on the map is perfectly equal, literally all that remains to cause the observed imbalance is camera angle.

Champion picks are certainly not equal, as every champion has VERY different mechanics. Pick/ban phase is not perfectly equal too in the same way that chess isn't perfectly equal; someone gets first pick, someone gets first ban, and you can't pick the same champion twice. Objective placement isn't equal either, since the map isn't symmetrical.


Gonna make quick bullets to each point.

"It is not beneficial to the player to have the UI and foreground elements in the way."
No matter what camera angle you use there is always going to be something in the way.

"There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way."
I generally agree. But you don't increase strategic depth by getting it out of the way either.

"It is harder to understand what is going on when the UI and foreground elements are in the way and your field of vision on the lane is smaller. Game is less fun when a key move you could have made was interrupted by having the UI in the way."
I also generally agree.

"You can shrink the UI all you want, it's still more in the way when you are playing red side than blue, along with the field of view being suboptimal for red side. Thus the imbalance in win rates. Simple as that."
Correlation does not imply causation. How do you know this isn't because baron opening is facing blue side? I could say that just because baron opening is facing blue side, it makes it easier for blue side to choose when to engage baron, giving them the advantage and therefore causing imbalance in win rates. I could just as well say the same thing for dragon, but dragon is more important since it allows one team to gain early leads, giving red/purple side higher win rates. What method are we using to determine which of these statements hold water?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143644)
I would not be surprised if over half your post count was this exact post.

Which is why you ignore him. lol
I wonder if this is gonna bait him into saying something stupid hehe

hi19hi19 05-31-2014 07:40 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143681)
Champion picks are certainly not equal, as every champion has VERY different mechanics. Pick/ban phase is not perfectly equal too in the same way that chess isn't perfectly equal; someone gets first pick, someone gets first ban, and you can't pick the same champion twice. Objective placement isn't equal either, since the map isn't symmetrical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143644)
Even on one for all mirror mode on Howling Abyss, blue side has a much higher win rate. That's been the key insight recently that has caused all this discussion.

Please actually read my post before you say something stupid.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143681)
Yeah it's really easy to imagine how much impact camera angle would have on a third-person overhead MOBA game. Clearly they should've figured this out while they were designing the game from the beginning.

Players have noticed how big a difference camera angle makes on red side since beta.
Hell, players have noticed how big a difference camera angle makes on scourge side since original dota (though it was way less pronounced in the WC3 engine, in my opinion)
Blizzard noticed this, and made their third-person overhead MOBA game mirrored left/right. Their game is objectively more balanced for having made that decision.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143681)
"It is not beneficial to the player to have the UI and foreground elements in the way."
No matter what camera angle you use there is always going to be something in the way.

The issue is not that the UI is in the way, it's that the UI is significantly more in the way if you are on red side. If the map is split into left/right, then having the UI on the bottom means it's equally in the way for both teams, which is better for balance.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143681)
"There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way."
I generally agree. But you don't increase strategic depth by getting it out of the way either.

So no net change to strategic depth, but an increase to competitive balance. I fail to see how that's anything but a recommendation for having the map be split left/right.
Quote:

Originally Posted by stargroup100 (Post 4143681)
Correlation does not imply causation.

That's why we take one for all mirror mode on howling abyss as an experimental case. This mode completely equalizes:
champion picks
pick/ban phase inequality
objective placement

leaving only camera angle as a remaining variable between the teams. Lo and behold blue side still wins significantly more, so we now have causation.

stargroup100 05-31-2014 08:10 PM

Re: League of Legends [v2]
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143688)
Please actually read my post before you say something stupid.

First of all, you didn't actually present data to demonstrate your claims. I didn't necessarily not believe you, but until I'm sufficiently convinced, I choose not to assume it.

Secondly, a lot of what I'm saying is addressing the way you're presenting your points, not the point itself. See:

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143688)
So no net change to strategic depth, but an increase to competitive balance.

I was replying to "There is no meaningful strategic depth created by putting the UI in the way." If strategic depth is not relevant, what was the point of that statement?

Quote:

Originally Posted by hi19hi19 (Post 4143688)
That's why we take one for all mirror mode on howling abyss as an experimental case...leaving only camera angle as a remaining variable between the teams. Lo and behold blue side still wins significantly more, so we now have causation.

What about matchmaking?
Champions aren't symmetrical left to right either (Blitz hooks with right hand, Diana's Q, possibly certain bounce/directional patterns, etc.), and neither is the map (brush is left on blue, right on purple).
Does this phenomenon happen only at particular levels of play? Particular regions?
What is the actual margin between the two sides? 51/49? 70/30? Is it possible it's just an accident?
Did social stigma influence one side to have an advantage? If we had this mode before anyone brought up the issue, would this still happen?
Could your data be biased in the first place?

There are different degrees to which I think each of these factors play a part, as well as their influence on win rate relative to the issue of camera angle. I'm not saying that I know I'm right, but I'm still not convinced camera angle significantly influences competitive balance.


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