Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I have been thinking about the 1-99 scale recently (yes, I am a loser, I get it).

I feel like we aren't using the upper section of the scale (80+) effectively. We have the hardest "real" files sitting in around 92-93. Then we have DP and RATO at 95 and 96. I think we can all agree these two are complete dump files. The only other files above 92 are:
Metro (93, easily the most "legit" file in this section)
Revolutionary Etude: (93, piece of crap file)
Party 4u (94, another piece of crap joke file)

So, other than 2 dumps, 2 joke files, and one "real" file, 93-99 is uncharted territory. (unless VROFL is a 99, which I assume it is)

My proposition, then, is this: DP and RATO are 98 and 99 (or both 99s, they play the same to me). Anything worse than those two files honestly shouldn't be in the game, but if it is, just make it a 99 or ??.

Then, we can slide up other files to smooth things out. I feel like a ton of files in the 80s are crammed into difficulties because there isn't enough space. Think about [Rain]. The file is incredibly difficult, yet we couldn't pull the trigger on making it an 87 because all the 87s are so complex/awkward. That seems silly, because to me it is WAY harder than every other 86.

Here are some other examples:

12 Bar Bloops 82 --> 83
Integraation 81 -->82
Molto and GGC 83 -->84
Hardkore Atomic 84 --> 85 (maybe... not sure how other people feel about this file)
Move the hardest 85s up to 86 (Rage Template, Xantha, RAN?)
Most of the 86s up to 87 except Music (For Kirby), RWOB (maybe?), and probably Kirlian Shores. I would argue RAIN should go up to 88.

Now we can start sliding the remaining 87s way up. FREEDOM Dive should stay 87 probably. Grind an Grist 88s for sure. La Camp 89, maybe 90. Scrap and Schmollbluk 88s, maybe 89s. Devour probably 88.

Then we can slide 88s up: Eclipse up to 89, Jai Envie 90, Slashmaid 90, CCCP 90. Something like that, obviously some people will feel differently about which of these is hardest.

89s need to move quite a bit. AT up to 92. M8Bit up to 91. AQD feels like a 90, maybe 91. Vortex 90.

90s: Extratone 93. WWE 92. System Doctor 91. Husigi 93 or 94.

91s: TWWW and Crowdpleaser should be ??. Can't quite decide about Crowdpleaser whether to go the ?? route. It would work at 93-94 as well. Jamais Vu 94.

92s: Do I smile up to 95, Rave7 up to 96 (maybe flip these)

The rest: Put Metro at 96. Revo either ?? or 97.

We could move a lot more of the lower 80s around as well, but I didn't want to go through all of them and interject too much subjectivity.

Thoughts? Don't get bogged down too much on the individual difficulties, as I realize I am but one opinion. Instead, focus on the overarching theme of expanding the upper tier.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Alright, let's discuss this hehe...

Way back when stavie and I were first beginning to rerate everything, I noticed that the upper end of the difficulty spectrum didn't really have a lot of room to breathe. I was told vrofl would be sitting at 99 on the new scale, and of course, to compensate for how much more difficult vrofl is than anything else in game, the ratings of all other files needed to be pushed further down in order to reflect this. I didn't really like this, but it's what was planned to be done, so I didn't argue at the time.

However, I did suggest that the old 9s should start much lower than where they were planned to start, which was 50. I didn't really see the need for old 1-8s to take up half the difficulty spectrum considering how the higher difficulties (especially FMO+) covered far greater of a difficulty spread. FGO alone could easily be segmented into three sublevels that would make sense to most players. In any case, Jae was a bit reluctant to start old 9s down at 40, so 45/46 was the compromise made.

...but now we still have this problem at the upper end lmao

SO...

Speedy Singapore and I came up with this list, excluding vrofl from the 1-99 and giving it a rating of ?? or something similar. It's not finalized or anything, so don't freak out if you guys don't agree with the way we segmented the new FGO tiers. But what do you guys think of this?

p.s. Eze, I moved some stuff around yet again (msg me if you wanna know specifics) don't h8 me pls

p.p.s. A++ thread bballa, I'm glad we have a reason to fix this now (inlove)
sorry it took a bit longer than I told you it would to unlock this btw

Updates to the list:

Shotgun Surgery [80 -> 81]
Holy Orders [80 -> 81]
11Eleven [81 -> 82]
Coactive [82 -> 81]
STRAWBERRY SWEETZ [83 -> 84]
White Walls, Part 1 [83 -> 84]
Storm Raid Battle [85 -> 84]
Eclipse [90 -> 89]
CCCP [90 -> 89]
Vortex [91 -> 88]
Husigi [93 -> 94]
Jamais Vu [94 -> 93]

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I actually really like this idea and that list that Rob came up with. I think they really are all squished and should have more room to breathe as well. vROFL should definitely not be on the 1-99 scale and should be ?? or something and then the rest can come up from there. Very solid Idea! +1

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

The issue that I have with this is that the expansion of the current scale leaves no room for things that might be slightly more difficult than what's listed in each corresponding difficulty level. If we come up with a song that is considerably harder than something in difficulty n-1 but easier than something in difficulty n, ratings will become somewhat disproportionate again.

I'm not opposed to the list, I'm just wary about filling in spaces that could be used later, haha.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Well that's an issue that exists regardless of the expansion haha, although I agree that this issue becomes increasingly problematic when there's fewer songs per sublevel. However, I think the benefits of better utilization for difficulties 88+ outweighs this. Filling out the upper echelon of songs over a wider spread looks much nicer, and the high FGO section (87+) as it currently sits in game really warrants the need to be stretched out.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Fair enough.

A few changes I personally would like to suggest:

Jamais Vu: 94 -> 93
Husigi: 93 -> 94

Essentially, switching these two for the sake of structure comparison/overall scoring difficulty. For the highest tier players, Husigi is a bit tougher to score on/FC, and to those that aren't retarded at FFR, respectable mashing (thanks to tough jack/burst placement) doesn't even get the job done.

Jamais Vu is a bit smoother, as well.

Almost There: 91 -> 92 (or Magical 8Bit Tour: 91 -> 90)

Seeing AT with M8BT doesn't fit with me simply because M8BT's trills are slower, contain less one-handed garbage, and are considerably shorter in stream length.

With the range being expanded, you could also afford changes like this...
World's End Yama Xanadu: 82 -> 83
Shotgun Surgery: 80 -> 81

...where the overall scale expansion could lead to a slight increase of value for longer songs that have extremes further in (in essence, just proportioning the overall increase).

List looks pretty solid, though.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

we could leave 99 unfilled. so RATO is 98, DP 97, etc...

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Not a bad idea, but we're essentially lowering the overall threshold that a "serious" file can be placed in, similar to how it is currently with RATO/DP at 96/95 respectively.

The problem that I presented was a theoretically avoidable one, but it did leave some discussion as to what could be done to remedy it, and OWA answered exactly as I hoped. Maximizing the amount of space within the FGO/FSO territory allows the scale to shine in separating files that are drastically more difficult, within the same level. At this point, I'm happy to see Schmollbluk be considered out of the 87 range, because it presents the most brutal burst patterns out of any FGO due to incredibly rigid transitions in and out of jumptrills. It also (to me), doesn't compare to the other 87s in the area, which (for the most part) are comparably more tame, or lack extremes as difficult as Schmollbluk.

It fits -perfectly- in the current list, in my opinion.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Honestly? I'd prefer RATO to be difficulty 99 with Vertex beta vrofl being an undefined difficulty of "???" - a variable in the difficulty parameter that maybe Velocity could add. Because right now, vrofl (and RATO to a less degreee) are on the 1-99 difficulty list and, as OWA implies, is skewing the difficulty scale a lot on the higher end.

Basically, vrofl shouldn't even exist on the 1-99 scale at all. And I certainly don't think anyone would want a file that's a notch above RATO anyhow. I'm thinking that even RATO might be way above anything below it, and am tempted to also put that as a "???"-difficulty file.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

My only opposition to putting RATO as "???" rating is that it's a ranked file.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

i'm alright w/ RATO being 99 then. makes sense

edit: it has been over 4 years now that it was released, and no song in game has come close to it in dif...

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Oh good point. IMO putting RATO as a ranked file was the main mistake in the first place, but I doubt it'd be converted into a token at this point, even if the token is easily attainable. I wonder how many people would dispute that...

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Sweet, this thread is approved lmao.

Yeah the list looks pretty solid Rob, thanks for posting it :]

I was actually considering of placing Husigi higher than Jamais Vu, but Jamais Vu is one of those files that you can either have the speed for it or you don't. I can't really judge the file without ridiculous bias, and I see far better scores on Husigi than Jamais Vu anyway. I wouldn't mind seeing Husigi higher than Jamais Vu though.

I feel that the trill section in AT and M8T are equally hard. Despite being around ~20 BPM slower, I find Magical 8bit Tour's patterns a lot worse compared to Almost There to not just AAA, but to score on as well.

Also another thing, M8T has harder sections outside the hard section compared to Almost There's easier sections, and although the difficulty of the file outside it is much easier compared to the trill section, it does cause a lot more nerves compared to AT.

I agree with those two, length should be a bigger factor than before with that difficulty list now.

Also I think RATO should stay as the hardest file that doesn't have a "??" difficulty. I don't think there would be any file harder than RATO, and it's not really much harder compared to Death Piano.

ps great thread bballa

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

TWWW, p4u v1, and vrofl being unrated ?? I can agree with since those are tokens and they mess up the difficulty scales hard (TWWW having a ridiculous spike at the end, p4u having zeroframers that make it go over Death Piano physically, and vrofl being uncomparable to everything else).

Before I go into the ratings OWA posted, does this mean 90+ is still the 13 border and 77-89 is 12? (talking old scale here)

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

We haven't really discussed about the borders yet, so I'm not sure actually.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

just make vROFL a 100 to make it seem more bizarre. Nothing is weirder than the only triple digit song.

Making it beyond double digits would imply it has gone farther than any song in terms of difficulty, and indeed it does. It's un AAA'able, and un FC'able for most.

Idk if putting a song into the triple digits would fuck with anything but w/e.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

A lot of this stuff looks really good, honestly. Although if it were up to me, I would be moving Eclipse down, and not up.

I'm curious to know any other changes you've made to this list, and I'd be happy to add another opinion into the mix (although I CLEARLY can't play the higher difficulty files like you guys can)

I honestly wouldn't have a problem with moving it to a token. As long as it isn't hard to get (only since it's been public for so long already). I wouldn't argue with DP getting changed to a token either. They really screw up the difficulty scale of the public files in my opinion.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I agree with nearly everything said in this thread. The upper areas of modern FGO's are way too squished together, and that gap in the 90's needs to be filled. I've always been for making vrofl a ???, because even with RATO at 96, vrofl and 99 is not a big enough jump. Like the joke file it is, vrofl should have no rating, and RATO should be 99, mainly because there should NEVER be a file harder than RATO let into this game. It is a dump file, and I hope to never see another file dumpier, or harder than it. Therefore it should be the limit, 99, and everything else filled out inbetween. I like OWA's scale, and I like your ideas as well bb, but we'd have to look at where to stretch out certain songs, I personally don't find Rain that much harder than other 86's.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I'm a little confused with this whole "no room for movement" discussion. the scale goes from 1-99. 99 means hardest song in the game, A.K.A. VROFL. Perfect that fits. Then make RATO a 98 because it's the second most difficult file in the game (and the only one with a difficulty range in that level) Since I don't foresee any other future files being as difficult as VROFL, this to me means every new file would be 1-98. If a new file as difficult as RATO comes out you would make it a 98 also. I just feel as though you guys are just complicating things way more than they need to be. The problem here seems to be that you guys are worried about VROFL being in it's own category (which I understand that since nothing else compares BUT, it's still the hardest in the game which is why it needs to stay at 99) You already have a great rating system in place so just use that and adjust accordingly. If you're still worried about it that much why not make the rating system go from 1-105....at least that way you could show the huge gap between VROFL and RATO, and it would give you more room for movement.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

RATO being 98 and VROFL being 99 makes no sense. The score gaps between the two songs are MASSIVE.

Also, Rob I REALLY like your list. Overall, you pretty much nailed everything in a far more objective manner than I did.

One thing I saw though....

Anyone else think 11ELEVEN should slide up into the 82s? At the very least it should before Coactive, IMO.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

If we're going to introduce "??" or "???" ratings are we just going to use them for intractably hard songs, or can they also be used for things like omgwtft0k3n as well, like we discussed in the other thread? I mean people have hugely differing opinions on it, and you might argue that it doesn't deserve a rating at all since the difficulty isn't solely derived from the arrows themselves. I've already explained how I play it like something in the 20s (1x speed, +2 offset, use restart trick to move arrows to middle of screen and hit the arrows on the perceived beat while ignoring the precise positions of the on-screen arrows themselves).

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I agree and disagree with you. Yes there is a massive gap, I get that. However **IF** we keep the 1-99 scale:

1)VROFL is a 99.....no arguement (unless of course you expand the system)
2) RATO I think should be a 98 because despite a huge gap, RATO is the second hardest song in the game and, IMO, in its own category, thus being fitting of a 98.

Also a couple other things...If you wanna get technical about the massive difficulty gap with VROFL and keep it proportionate then RATO and DP should be the ONLY songs to reach the 90 mark (RATO 92, DP 90) and all these other songs people have in the 90's would then have to go into the 80's. This is why in my other post I suggested expanding the scale to 1-105 or even possibly higher to more accurately place songs. And to whoever even thought about the idea of making VROFL a difficulty of "??"....no offense, but that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That's just the lazy way of saying "I don't feel like changing a few things around so we'll give it a mystery ranking." It needs to be either 99 or, if you expand the system, a value in the hundreds.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Vrofl shouldn't be on the scale at all...

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

With the current expansion as the list shows, I would say that 91+ is the new 13 now, and then 78-90 is 12.

EDIT: +1 to RATO being moved to tokens; it's unfathomably hard to score on and requires a retarded element of luck to get a good score -- I have a worse score on DP, but I can acknowledge it as a file that tests many things at extreme levels compared to RATO, which is just speed/jumptrilling...

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I actually wouldnt mind RATO being moved to tokens. It doesnt fit in with the other public songs and is really just a dump. vROFL should definitely be off of the scale as i already mentioned and list is looking good guys!

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

this is exactly the same thing you posted in your last comment...

the debate is whether vROFL should even be included in how we rate files. the whole purpose of this thread was so that vROFL isn't, RATO is 99, and we can spread out the higher FGOs. having a top rating of 105 is just weird, and then there are still unused ratings.


btw, I'd be happy for RATO to be moved to tokens. and not just cuz it's one of my worst lvl ranks heehee

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I doubt that anyone will have an issue with it, granted the token is fairly easy to obtain. Seeing the mash fest that is RATO leave the main level ranks sounds like a great thing in my opinion.

Then it will probably go down the lines of vROFL, where the chart is ridiculously hard and silly, but no one cares because it's a token. So the overall appreciation level of RATO's in game existence might actually improve if the change is made.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

RATO as a (skill) token? I'm all for it!

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

92 looks like it'd be lowest FSO at this point, although I really don't have a problem extending that boundary down to 91 considering the hilarious spikes present in songs at that level (although Vortex will probably get pushed down if it ever gets frame treatment). I don't like the current 1-20 splits using this new scaling for the most difficult files, but then again, I've been hoping we could go back to 1-13 for quite some time now.

I don't have a problem with RATO being moved to tokens, as long as the unlock req is simple enough for players of any skill level to gain access to the file once again.

Without going into too much detail, I can agree with swapping Jamais/Husigi ratings and bumping up longer songs like Shotgun Surgery. I agree with what Eze posted about 8bit Tour and AT being of similar difficulty though. Tons of one handed bs present in 8bit Tour's trillstream, and even though it's almost 20bpm slower, I think many players find that section a lot more difficult to PA/combo than AT's 32nd run, so gonna keep those two together for now at least. WEYX probably should've been 81 to begin with so I think it's fine where it is on the new list. 11Eleven 'dense jumpstream -> one handed jumptrill -> 32nd bs' section could push it up to 82, I don't have a problem with that. Everyone's good at Eclipse nowadays for some reason beyond me, so maybe it's fine at 89? Objectively speaking, 330bpm should really be FSO material, but the patterns are so incredibly comfortable to hit...really iffy on that one, gonna leave it where it is for the time being.

Gonna switch Jamais/Husigi in the OP (Jamais fits in well with EP), as well as bump up Shotgun and 11Eleven (and maybe a few other longer songs). If bballa doesn't mind this thread serving two purposes now, might as well bring up any other songs you guys see fit to be tweaked in this thread instead of potentially having a bunch of threads once these changes are live.

edit: I'll update any changes to difficulties I make without discussion in the thread at the bottom of my first post in this thread, just in case I do something really hilarious that none of you agree with so you can all call me out on my crap :')

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

If RATO moves to tokens, I may get back into the game. It's been destroying my lvlranks forever. Honestly, RATO is a terrible file and should be the highest 'real' file in the game. vrofl was a joke so it shouldn't be on a scale, it should be treated like a joke, there is no way to objectively compare that file, or TWWW and P4U to any others, because what makes them challenging are things that no other file has, things beyond comparison and beyond objective ranking. How do you rate 0 framers?

On another note, I'm still unsure if CP should have a rating as well, I guess it's fair to put it in the 90's where OWA has it, but I've never like the idea of objectively placing that file, the spike is ?? material, the rest of the song is 40 range material, so it's still odd.

I pretty much agree with OWA's list though and would be fine if we adopted it.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Let's do it!

Also, those changes look good.


Thoughts on Storm Raid Battle going down to 84?

It seems quite a bit easier than the other 85s, although I may be biased since the file plays to my strengths.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I agree Storm Raid should be at 84. 83 seems too low, and 85 seems too high, so 84 is perfect :)

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

While Death Piano is more doable than RATO the scoreboards show that they're basically no better than each other, both could be at 99 statistically. Death Piano IS actually harder to FC, RATO you can mash more lazily but DP you actually have to jack fast to FC in the first place.

I can also see Husigi being above Jamais Vu. Jamais Vu doesn't go any faster than 230 bpm 8th jacks, it has difficult transitions to get out of but Husigi is harder to FC and manage one handed transitions out of longer jacks and weird dense bursts.

If 92 is supposed to be the border for old scale 13, I can agree with them except for White Walls Part 2. White Walls Part 2 doesn't have that many plays but putting it that low when the scoreboard is that messy is just silly, and 4 levels under Revo is even more silly.

Vortex in its current frame state is ridiculous to even HIT and is definitely way above 92 but with treatment it could be on the border. The file itself is hard to hit without screwing up transitions, especially getting out of those 64th walls.

It's nice that Winter Wind Etude got moved up. More statistics are being considered here now.

CCCP is placed a bit high... the file is difficult to AAA, but so are files like DeVouR etc. someone who can't FC long jacks like in slashmaid or J'ai would have a much easier time playing through CCCP.

I wish Crowdpleaser would be taken off this list because it's one of those files that have ridiculous spikes. Crowdpleaser is one of the only files in this game that has 1 framers and a trill almost 50% faster than Death Piano's trill (240 vs. 170), with terrible patterns to hit where it has 64ths.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

SRB should've been moved down, I forgot that it received frame treatment to remove all the two frame jumpjacks shortly after being released. Fine with 84.

More thoughts on DP and RATO sharing 99? Eze actually mentioned to me that he finds DP to be the more difficult file, but I pushed him to have RATO rated one point higher as I believe that's the general consensus. If ability to just FC is weighted more heavily here, they could share the same rating. But I think most top tier D6 players can PA DP better than they can RATO.

I honestly think the spikes in WW pt. 2 aren't any more difficult than the spikes at the end of System Doctor. The anchor jumpjack section in WW pt. 2 is much more manageable to hit than the jumpjacking section in Revo. It's just like hitting a faster Bloodmeat trill, whereas Revo is nonstop awkward anchor jumpjacking after a certain point. At the risk of sounding biased, I've AAA'd WW pt. 2 all the way to the quarter note jumptrill (at which point I choked like a bitch lol), but from that point onwards, the one handed 12th jack section and 24th trill stream is really just upper-mid FGO material imo. I'm positive I can AAA WW pt. 2 if I put the time in, and I think a lot of D6 players can PA the file much better than other 93+s (but rarely anyone's gonna play it because ffr token files never get played lol). I don't think it needs to be pushed up from where it sits atm, but hey, if you all think otherwise...

CCCP is rated higher because of hilarious difficulty to AAA, but the scoreboard looks like it could be pushed down, so I'm fine with that.

Vortex I'm gonna keep where it is for now because as soon as it gets frame treatment, it's going to play like a 90 or possibly even an 89.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

White Walls Part 2 is definitely FSO, but I agree with it being at 92 and no higher. It doesn't need to go anywhere. It's my worst > 95 FSO, but replay analysis shows for me that if I stop being lazy and speed up on the first anchored trill, I'd AAA the song (lol).

Vortex is fine as well; the hardest sections of the file are no less common than the hardest sections of some higher FGOs (64ths? not too hard - ending patterns? not worse than Schmollbluk, me thinks).

The whole AT/M8BT argument doesn't make sense to me though, the problem with AT vs. M8BT is that you're doing a constant 150 BPM 32nd stream that forces you to transition into and out of mini-trills in AT, but you get interrupted with a lot of easier patterns in M8BT that allow you to regain your bearings, in addition to the song being 10 BPM slower without a constant point. How are these at all comparable?

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

It seems more reasonable to make a difficulty scale with difficulty values more evenly partitioned. That's why RATO as a 98 doesn't at all belong within the company of vrofl as a 99; as hard as those two songs are, vrofl is still indescribably much harder. If I had it my way, vrofl should've been a joke song that would briefly appear before being removed, just like Whimper Wall. However, it's been immortalized into the FFR song list at this point, so now I see "??" as making do with file borne out of bad judgment. People would rage if this joke file was removed from the game, because this file was the top reward for official tournaments.*

The other suggestion you've made on expanding the difficulty scale further into the 100s becomes a little too detailed; and of course, people just find it more likeable to have a difficulty scale constrained within a 100-point value. Because I highly doubt anyone would remotely want a file that comes close to vrofl in difficulty, having vrofl as the lone "??" seems acceptable.


*~IDEA~: MAYBE if vrofl was removed altogether and replaced by another completely exclusive song, still only attainable through winning tournaments, this would solve the problem. This would work perfectly if it isn't for people hanging onto nostalgia of vrofl's infamy. I don't miss vrofl, but others might. Solution: make vrofl yet another token of sorts, have the former vrofl token turned into a different song. Future tokens handed out from official tournaments, as well as those that previous winners already had, will turn into the new song. The scoring table for vrofl may need to be transferred when it becomes a new token, if that's possible.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Honestly, if "??" ratings are implemented, TWWW and omgwtftok3n should get them along with vROFL because the difficulty of these songs are so variable from person to person. vROFL could also get a "???" rating (to signify that it is 100+, harder than anything else on the songlist)

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I will cry if you get rid of VROFL....like literally cry. That's what's motivating me to get to 50 bil. Idc how "shitty of a file it may be, I want it! If that get's taken away I would probably stop playing.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I'm all for vROFL being removed completely. It's a joke file that even though has a very good achievement value in, is not an actually good file. If that thing were submitted today I am sure the judges would obliterate it with [--]s and then laugh about it. We should think about the overall quality of our files.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I've discussed the "??" on Skype with a few other people earlier, and I also mentioned those oddball songs you've listed as well to be within the "??" difficulty. However, we need to be careful in choosing what songs to elect. We don't want "??" to be a garbage dump for all sorts of weird files. Then again, a lot of weird files simply exist when they shouldn't be in the first place.

Maybe "??" isn't the right way to describe it. Maybe, like in movie DVDs, we should call these files "extras". FFR Extras. That might help legitimize this unknown difficulty being a place to put all sorts of weird files, regardless of their natures. They could even be described as "out takes" of sorts - files that were previously in the main game but put aside.

Yeah, I thought some people would still want it. That's why I thought vrofl could be branched into another token, while the token that you normally would get from achieving top 8 in official tournaments will become a NEW, exclusive song. You'd still have a goal to look forward to.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

AT's one handed trills are no more than four notes long iirc, whereas M8BT has several one handed trills 6-8 notes in length. It's possible to cheat these as jumps if you can hit between two frame intervals well, otherwise you'll keep the FC but destroy your PA in the process. Hitting the one handed sections in M8BT as they were intended to be hit makes it very easy to fall behind and dump a boatload of goods before resorting to mashspam to keep your combo. I know you mentioned AT is constant whereas M8BT's tougher section has breaks, but I also use the non-trill sections of AT's stream to regain my bearings if I notice I've fallen behind, as the streamier sections at the first and last bars of each measure during that section are a lot more manageable to hit than the middle two 'trilly' bars. That's just me though.

I took a look at the two scoreboards just now. Top 30 on both files look very similar, after which AT's scoreboard starts to get really sloppy with players that don't have the speed to keep up with 300bpm stream. Then again, AT's top 10 is a bit cleaner than M8BT's. I still think they're of comparable difficulty to AAA. If anything, I definitely wouldn't want to push M8BT down, so if something's to happen, I'd rather AT be pushed up.

p.s. I really like the idea of a new, legitimate file with the same unlock requirements replacing vrofl. +1

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I think Poison got it really. As far as Vrofl is concerned, why do we even need to rate that file on that scale?

I am a defender of Vrofl - I want it in game pretty badly. However, I see absolutely no need of putting it on the 1-99 scale. Just make it ?? or simply nothing. It's not a matter of being a newbie to FFR and being informed of the difficulty, or being someone trying to find a file to score on/reach a difficulty milestone.

In my eyes, Vrofl is just some easter egg of ffr, you can get and play, but is pointless. It only qualifies as a file and that's it. Same sort of idea with Whimper Wall (why did this have to go, it was pretty cool! xD).

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

IMO we shouldn't stick to the 99 limit. What happens when we add more files around that level, which we very well might considering all the new 88+s? If we eventually allow raw scoring it would make it a lot more reasonable to have files around RATO level or harder (imagine some fun, hard midare style dumps), and instead of worrying about being stuck against the 99 wall, we could just play around with the difficulties around that level. Maybe someday we'll have DP at 102, RATO at 106, and vrofl at 117. Or something :)

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

make vROFL 255, no one plays it except to pass it anyway so it's not like anyone cares how hard it is

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I suppose that could be considered if FFR does go raw scoring, but I haven't even come to close to speculating to that point yet.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

1-20 never really took off. I still refer to old system, but w/ 1-99 rank.

I've been wondering this myself lol. the scoreboard on that song is starting to get crazy now!

maybe let's worry about that if raw scoring ever gets implemented?


as for vrofl... that's a tricky one. i def think it shouldn't be rated (and TWWW, p4u v1, CP and OMG could be unrated as well, i care less about those). how you word it, be it ??, or ffr extra, etc... that could be debated. In the end I don't think it really matters.
However, replacing the chart for vROFL... I dont think that's a good idea for a few reasons. It's the token with the craziest and most unique reqs. Fitting that a crazy chart accompany the token. It's also the most coveted of tokens, for better or for worse. How would you pick a file for it? not to mention the subjectiveness of good charts, make a good FGO chart, and it's just another token FGO that D1-4 will hardly play. Make an easier chart, and it's AAA'd once then forgotten. I recon vROFL as it stands equalizes the token for anyone who gets it. It's a joke file, impossible for ANYONE to score on, regardless of skill. I recon it fits.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Concerning putting RATO and DP as 99s, Death Piano is harder to FC but RATO is harder to score on. Both their scoreboards are very messy, but Death Piano has less FCs. I can see them both being 99.

Also, a file getting ingame to be harder than those files has a 99% chance of being rejected. DP and RATO have bad patterns, and to have a harder file you'd have to be going Brutality Tournament status.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

ahhhhhh, that explains the worse top 20 scoreboard on DP

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

+1 to the idea of a legitimate hard file replacing vROFL as the token prize. I feel that vROFL shouldn't be a prize to begin with, why try so hard to play a file that you can't even do legitimately..?

Wouldn't mind seeing it as a token with other requirements though.

EDIT: Wouldn't mind seeing DP and RATO as 99s, RATO requires speed to svore well on, and mostly difficult to score on through out the file, but DP has a lot of tricky bits, some harder to FC/score on compared to RATO.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I agree 99s should be Ridiculous, ??s should be WTF. It looks weird sorting by difficulty and seeing the huge gaps in the 90s.
I disagree with changing the Vrofl song. You just can't do that. Its a bragging token, not really meant to be played. There are plenty of places for legitimate difficult files to be added.
Also, I like Rato and DP as super hard real songs. Just because you're bad at overly difficult charts doesnt mean you're entitled to complain about it. Besides, its 2 songs, it can't affect avg rank too much.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Hey, was going to type this yesterday but shit came up.

Proposal: Why not make Crowdpleaser v1 the Skill token and then make Crowdpleaser v2 the song to unlock it on? It would wipe Crowdpleaser from the level ranks and it would be one less Bullshit song we have to rate because of fucking framer trills.

Just wondering, Anyone else think this would be the wisest choice?

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Agreed.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I'll admit cutting out a lot of your post here is inappropriate, but I feel like difficulty to AAA is taken way too far. Skeletor would be rated much higher for me since I have to do the long 32nd rolls with raw speed if this was the case, for instance.

On ITG, a file shouldn't be rated lower if it's easier to AAA/FA. I care about passing. Connecting to FFR, a player who can't even play through a file properly is not going to care about AAAing the file. They would just want to hit it without taking a huge hit on their score while at the same time getting an FC.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I actually really like death piano. Sure I can't do well on it but despite "bad patterns," which is entirely an opinion statement, I think the file is pretty well done and flows well. Over half the songs in the high 80's and low 90's sound like someone's having a high speed pots and pans fight....I don't even consider it music for that matter. Same with RATO...that's just a bunch of random noises. At least death piano is a song with some melody. Some notes may be excessive but they still fit the song. Most piano songs tend to be hard but at least they sound cool. La Campanella is an amazing song/file too. I'd rather have more songs like that than these stupid random synthesizers or whatever it may be making these shitty ass noises some of you people call songs.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

very good idea for CP
+1

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

As a reference, pattern difficulty/rhythmic structure does have a tendency to tilt files slightly upward or downward, but no more than a point (until you hit 17+, where 220 runs changing face lightly is a high 16 and 220 runs constantly turning is a mid-high 18). A bit more realistic of an example occurs in some custom files on ITG where extremely complicated rhythms cause a difficulty go up (Go *60* Go, where if you ignore the 64th swing, it's very clearly an 11 to pass and not the 12 that it really is), or incredibly simplistic patterns cause it to go down (Walking on Fire, which has the density of most 11s but is rated a 10).

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Random Q... is

65-74 FMO
75-100 FGO

correct? fix it for me if it isn't i don't want to say i got an FMO AAA if its a 65 if FMO is like 66+

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

66-77 is "FMO"
I guess 78+ is "FGO"

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

65-77 is TECHNICALLY FMO and 78+ is FGO lol

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Ahh...shit lol, I think I'll push myself and say 66 is FMO (besides i dont have any 65 AAA's lol)

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

65 is all VCs, and Novo Mundo which used to be FMO
66-76 is all FMOs, with the addition of For FFR at 67, which used to be VC
77 and 78 are a combination of FMOs and FGOs
79+ is all FGOs/FSOs

Any other songs you guys see fit to be tweaked around on that list? Otherwise I'll send the final draft to a game manager.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

+1
Also I wouldn't mind RATO being made into a token. How about pass DP to unlock?

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Only thing is, not everyone can pass DP... lol

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I don't think Eclipse should be a 90. I think it should go in with CCCP.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

More opinions on Eclipse because I'm incredibly iffy on that one...scoreboard definitely says it could be moved down, but man, 330bpm stream is brutally fast. I'm sure most lower level players find that to be the toughest file in the 90s.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I just don't see Eclipse really being any harder than La Camp, or even Scrap Syndrome. I see why low level players would think it's ridiculous though.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Not really good when it comes to files rated that high, but I think I Hate The 80s would be better as a 81/82 than an 83 (Better as an 81 imo because similarity to ERB and mutant corecore)

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Remember that pretty much everything will be switched around. ERB is definitely not an 82 anymore.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Ummm guys, I Hate the 80s has brutal freaking patterns. Not that hard to mash through, but really hard to control several of the transitions. Easily 82 status on the "old scale", so I say 83. 82 at the lowest. Not a chance it is an 81.

Also, I don't get the ERB thing either. Frame fixes don't change the superb amount of jack control required to play it well.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I find I Hate The 80s as difficult as Lawn Wake II honestly, but I'm probably biased because I'm decent at jacking/one hand trill transitions.

Wouldn't mind seeing it as 82, need more opinions though.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

This is a good point, but the frames do make a huge difference in hitting the parts. The jacking parts were sped up from the previous 2 framers and made things more awkward to transition through.

Eclipse (Solar) is fine where it is. Almost There was much easier to play back in the day when I had to mash Eclipse. Almost There may be more physically demanding but Eclipse is a lot harder to read through and recover from if you mess up somewhere in the stream. Biased opinion incoming, but I had to mirror eclipse because the roll transitions in the big stream were awful nonmirror (I've AAA'd the big stream off mirror but it was much more awkward), so it's not like the patterns are easy either.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Maybe my opinion is just biased, because I really don't find Eclipse to be that hard.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I think Eclipse is just fine as it is, it definitely fits with the other three files and it's ridiculously hard to be consistent on.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Eclipse isn't just about the huge section. Those awkward bursts, jacks, and ending are brutal as well. It's fine with Almost There. Eclipse is definitely easier to combo than AT (which may contribute to the scoreboard differences).

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Thanks to Dossar, frames have been fixed in Vortex. The file should play more smoothly now.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

In the 80s, you mean? 330bpm stream is pretty fast, but Eclipse's stream is really smooth, so it's about the same tps as, say, heavy 220bpm jumpstream, which is in a whole bunch of other files. Plus Eclipse has a lot of sections that are no more than FMO level, as compared to some other FGOs that are (for lower-level players) unplayable all the way through.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Oops I meant out of the 90s on that new list, worded poorly.

I have no ~*~QuALmS~*~ about knocking Eclipse down to 89 on the new list. The scoreboard is pretty damn sick, and apparently everyone can do this damn file so lol why not. The stream is incredibly smooth and even though it still looks like a jarbled mess of arrows to most players, for some reason their fingers know what to do without spamming boos. I really don't have anything else to add haha, 89 works.

p.s. JX gave the new list the 'A-ok' last night, so we'll prob see rating changes sometime in the near future possibly? :O

p.p.s. I'm knocking Vortex down like 4 points, get at me (so 87 on the new list). I'm honestly tempted to go lower but that seems like an awfully large point reduction just for frame fixes. Then again, the file as a whole is a lot more manageable now... I'd love to keep the rating higher but it honestly doesn't feel anywhere near FSO material right now

edit: temp-placing it at 88, feel free to discuss

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Vortex is still pretty damn hard to FC with those kinds of walls. It doesn't need to be bumped down a lot. It has segments of 32nd stream etc. that are hard to read with the mix of 48ths too, so it's not like the 64ths are everything, just it's better to play through now

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

I would almost think that Phi-dentity Crisis should be a little higher on the difficulty scale. I don't know how everyone else feels about it, though.

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 

Vortex is pretty hard to FC but so are almost all other mid-high FGOs, so that doesn't mean much. For what it's worth, I don't find Vortex all that bad to play/PA, especially now (I just got ~50 goods and one boo, and there are several files around that level that I could never do that on).