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-   -   Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=150859)

the sun fan 04-13-2019 01:34 PM

Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
For a long time, I have felt like C9++ is pretty horribly balanced. My main complaints are:

1) Wolves don't have wolfchat during the day (neither do masons, but idc about that as much). Wolves absolutely need to be able to coordinate in reaction to town claiming roles, and its far too heavy of a burden for them to have to lay out EVERYTHING in nightchat in preparation.

2) Some of the role distributions kind of suck. It should roll for a 1-shot Doctor before it rolls for a Doctor, as Doctors are really strong. I would be totally fine with replacing a Doctor with an Angel, as Angel is a saving role that is functionally similar, obviously weaker (in c9++, at least, as day kills do not exist) and punishes, instead of rewards, roleclaiming prematurely. If you do not know what an Angel is or does, look further beneath.

3) The possible wolf roles do not scale very well into the higher side of the role rands, meaning that the wolves tend to be underpowered when there are a lot of town roles. I suggest that the role distribution for mafia be changed entirely in order to better allow mafia to have better counterplay, which will be outlined further beneath.

4) The pregame confirmation phase rests entirely on the Serial Killer choosing between two rather unimportant abilities, and there might not even be a Serial Killer at all. People really don't like pregame confirmation phases, and I can see why. In order to avoid this, I propose that the Serial Killer be given Investigation Immune if there is, at least, one full Cop in the setup. Otherwise, the Serial Killer be given the 1-shot Bulletproof Vest. Role confirmation can take place before the end of d0, with a gentleman's honor on reading your role and confirming it before the end of d0.

5) The Role rands are not even, and they really should be imo.

6) This isn't as much of a balance thing as it is an idea, but I think changing the Innocent Child to reveal when they want to is a neat idea. It might place too high of a moderator burden, so I have a workaround.

As such, I propose to entirely re-balance this game mode from the ground up, keeping what I feel like works well.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

So, what does an Angel do? Essentially, it is the same as a Doctor, but instead of saving a player on the same night, the save is performed 1 night later, such that:

Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night One, and because Sunfan's Angel save is not yet in effect, star-crossed dies.

Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night Two, and because Sunfan's Angel save is in effect, star-crossed does not die.

A really big problem in C9++ stems from someone being forced into claiming a role, like a full cop, and then, instead of Mafia or the Serial Killer being able to kill that role, a Doctor saves them. Potentially, two or more Doctors can keep someone alive forever, which is really gross and its not even TWG anymore at that point.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would suggest that the randomization be changed from:
1-50 = T (Townie)
51-65 = C (Cop)
66-75 = D (Doctor)
76-85 = V (Vigilante)
86-95 = M (Mason)
96-100 = B (Blocker)

to:
1-50 = T (Townie)
51-60 = C (Cop)
61-70 = A (Angel)
71-80 = V (Vigilante)
81-90 = M (Mason)
91-100 = B (Blocker)

This decreases the chance of rolling a Town Cop, while increasing the chance of a Town Roleblocker, evening out the roles. This also replaces Doctor with Angel.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Wolves really, really need to be able to talk to one another as much as possible. Currently, they cannot, and the only reason is because of the culture of MafiaScum, rather than any balance reason. We know from countless games the power of wolfchat; but what I think we don't know, or maybe have forgotten, is how disorienting it is to be a wolf without Daychat. Lack of coordination for a massclaim can be devastating, and its not fun to lose that way as a wolf.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Serial Killer thing is, I think, self-explanatory. It would speed up games, and eliminates a silly choice, while giving the alignment with the lowest win percentage a slight buff. I see no potential negatives here.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Perhaps the biggest change I would make to the game is that of equivalent Mafia Roles. I think a Role Cop instead of a Goon would help Mafia out tremendously. For the lower non-T rands, a 1-shot Role Cop seems to fit nicely.

I would change the distribution from:
TTTTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)

TTTTTT = Goon + Godfather

TTTTT = Goon + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)

TTTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker

TTT = 2 Goons + Roleblocker, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)

TT = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather

T = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Investigation Immune OR 1-Shot Bulletproof)

0 Ts = Goon + Roleblocker + Godfather

to a more balanced:
TTTTTTT = 1-Shot Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)

TTTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather

TTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)

TTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather

TTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather, Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)

TT = Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather

T = Role Cop + Roleblocker + Godfather Serial Killer (Conditional Extra Ability)

0 Ts = 2 Role Cops + Roleblocker

------------------------------------------------------------------------

My proposed Innocent Child change is that, in the OP, or perhaps beneath is, the moderator of each game posts an image, and posting that image means that you are revealed as the Innocent Child. If a player who is not the Innocent Child posts the image, then that player is modkilled. It makes the most boring role in TWG a little bit more interesting, in my opinion.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would rather like to see how a game plays out with these proposed changes. I think I have improved the setup significantly, and I know people look to C9++ for a nice, relaxing game with a balance between known and unknown information. This, I believe, will create better games for a setup that players on FFR already rather liked.

DaBackpack 04-13-2019 02:11 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Why not just always give the SK investigation-immune (or just make them green permanently) and also the bulletproof? Losing my bulletproof (which I'd choose every time) just because town randed a cop would really sting.

IC suggestion is good, I like it. Everything else makes sense at the surface level at least.

inDheart 04-13-2019 03:14 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
i'm in favor of IC choosing when to reveal; i'm not sure it's as mod-intensive of a thing to handle as to require the image thing but that's a clean enough way of handling it

no opinion on wolfchat or mason chat

i don't really care about pregame confirmation phases and having one probably would have reminded me that the christmas game existed

is the plan to nerf angels or let them be un-nerfed? the line about 2 doctors saving someone forever makes me think that

was one of the goals to put a godfather in almost every setup? it seems like the number of Ts only locks if you ever see a wolf 1-shot rb flip which seems nice

flashflash account 04-13-2019 03:16 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Increase the likelihood of vanilla town rand :^)

I don't know how I feel about Angel honestly. I just don't really see someone being able to predict 2-3 phases in advance until it gets closer to endgame. I get the point is to prevent cop from claiming and being saved by doctor every night or w/e but angel might as well be a randomized doctor imo

the sun fan 04-13-2019 03:39 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DaBackpack (Post 4670649)
Why not just always give the SK investigation-immune (or just make them green permanently) and also the bulletproof? Losing my bulletproof (which I'd choose every time) just because town randed a cop would really sting.

IC suggestion is good, I like it. Everything else makes sense at the surface level at least.

The SK point is a decent one; the last time I did that, Xiz cruised to a victory as the SK, but I think I would be interested in trying that. SK definitely needs help either way.

Glad you like the IC suggestion, as FFR's resident Innocent Child, I would imagine you would have a pretty relevant opinion there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inDheart (Post 4670651)
i'm in favor of IC choosing when to reveal; i'm not sure it's as mod-intensive of a thing to handle as to require the image thing but that's a clean enough way of handling it

Its definitely the least mod-intenstive thing I could think of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inDheart (Post 4670651)
no opinion on wolfchat or mason chat

this one surprises me; I really think that wolves need it. If wolves have it, it feels like the masons ought to as well, but that one is not as important.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inDheart (Post 4670651)
i don't really care about pregame confirmation phases and having one probably would have reminded me that the christmas game existed

Every time I host a C9++ with a pregame confirmation phase, I get multiple people complaining about it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inDheart (Post 4670651)
is the plan to nerf angels or let them be un-nerfed? the line about 2 doctors saving someone forever makes me think that

Yeah, they will be nerfed. It will roll like:

A = 1-shot Angel

AA = Angel + 1-shot Angel

AAA = 2 Angels

AAAA = 2 Angels + 1-shot Angel

AAAAA = 3 Angels

which I will admit, is not super clean to look at. While, yes, two angels can also keep a player alive indefinitely, its a heck of a lot less likely for this to happen.

An Angel will never be able to target the same player twice in a row, same as a Doctor would be and same as a Roleblocker would be still.

Quote:

Originally Posted by inDheart (Post 4670651)
was one of the goals to put a godfather in almost every setup? it seems like the number of Ts only locks if you ever see a wolf 1-shot rb flip which seems nice

Yup. It confirms less about the setup for both sides. With 7 T's, Godfather is basically useless, but if I make it a goon instead, either Mafia flip confirms the setup for town, which I would like to avoid. Massclaim situations are too commonly set up by the wolves losing a member that only exists in specific circumstances. Goons are also hot garbage, and I think that giving mafia a slight boost would help the win % disparity that I think exists.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4670652)
Increase the likelihood of vanilla town rand :^)

I don't know how I feel about Angel honestly. I just don't really see someone being able to predict 2-3 phases in advance until it gets closer to endgame. I get the point is to prevent cop from claiming and being saved by doctor every night or w/e but angel might as well be a randomized doctor imo

Nah for the first point, just play something else.

It sounds like you understand what I am trying to avoid with the Doctor, but don't like the Angel. I think Angels reward good thinking from a player, without being too strong. What would you suggest instead?

the sun fan 04-13-2019 03:42 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
there's some other small stuff, like I think that a mafia roleblocker or role cop should not have to choose between using their ability and performing the factional nightkill, but that's stuff I think FFR already agrees on

OH
I totally forgot; I really think the SK should be staggered differently. Sk currently exists when there is an odd number of T's, but I think it would be better for SK to exist when there is an even number of Ts. When doing this, the 7 T setup would need to changed, but this might be the smallest change I can think of.

flashflash account 04-13-2019 07:31 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
I probably just don't like angel cause I'm bad lul
I don't have any hard evidence against it so I think it at the very least deserves to be tested out to see how it affects gameplay
I'm generally a big proponent of jailkeeper/bodyguard over un-nerfed docs in that slot
bodyguard specifically has a lot of room to reward high skill on top of good prediction like angel without the random/not in control feeling that I suspect the angel would give

the sun fan 04-13-2019 07:39 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4670681)
I probably just don't like angel cause I'm bad lul
I don't have any hard evidence against it so I think it at the very least deserves to be tested out to see how it affects gameplay
I'm generally a big proponent of jailkeeper/bodyguard over un-nerfed docs in that slot
bodyguard specifically has a lot of room to reward high skill on top of good prediction like angel without the random/not in control feeling that I suspect the angel would give

maybe; but I think bodyguards are kind of... weird in C9++, then again, Angels are too.

Jailkeeper is too similar to roleblocker here in my mind, too much roleblocking for town if both are in

flashflash account 04-13-2019 08:52 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Oh yeah can we call it C9ff

inDheart 04-13-2019 08:57 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
bodyguard gameplay isn't everyone's favorite thing. it and angel kinda both have downsides which aren't people's fav

i think what to do with daychat is more a player taste thing that you can then work around. people like daychat but i don't personally mind games without it, not that i use the nighttime particularly well in many cases. i think it just makes sense to have the masons mirror whatever wolves have though

the sun fan 04-16-2019 09:29 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by flashflash account (Post 4670697)
Oh yeah can we call it C9ff

but why

Quote:

Originally Posted by inDheart (Post 4670701)
bodyguard gameplay isn't everyone's favorite thing. it and angel kinda both have downsides which aren't people's fav

i think what to do with daychat is more a player taste thing that you can then work around. people like daychat but i don't personally mind games without it, not that i use the nighttime particularly well in many cases. i think it just makes sense to have the masons mirror whatever wolves have though

what do people dislike about angel specifically? The fact that you can't do anything about it, other than lynch the person?

flashflash account 04-16-2019 09:39 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Cause f looks like + and it stands for flashflash

inDheart 04-16-2019 09:39 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by the sun fan (Post 4671779)
what do people dislike about angel specifically? The fact that you can't do anything about it, other than lynch the person?

just because you can't do something the same night you actually pick a target

idkwym by "you can't do anything about it", if it's not about resolving an angel claim, which docs would just have the same problem anyway

also, bringing over from the other thread in case it's not here, it's been brought up that maybe only the cops and role cops should have express notification of being blocked (via the "no result" they should get), because they're usually obligated to receive results when they act. and like i said, i could see that going either way. i'm used to playing that way, but the other option is the old way and it does feel intuitive, to an extent

inDheart 04-16-2019 09:56 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. roundbox, a wolf roleblocker, blocks sunfan on night one. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night Two. does she die?

every time i want to do a role or mechanic with temporal distance like this, i have issues in explaining it because i feel like either night for the block can be rationalized as the intuitive answer here

i think the answer that wins out in my mind here is "yes"

the sun fan 04-16-2019 10:13 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
I would rule that she dies there, yes.
The action is processed on night one.

YoshL 04-16-2019 10:27 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
other question, is angel posthumous? e.g.

Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. sunfan is lynched the following day phase. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night Two. does she die?

MixMasterLar 04-20-2019 05:04 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
I've never seen an issue with a pregame phase. Gives people who don't post d0 less of an excuse to not be ready to post on d0.

flashflash account 04-20-2019 05:09 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
I hate pregame phases but don't say anything about it

the sun fan 04-20-2019 05:17 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by YoshL (Post 4671792)
other question, is angel posthumous? e.g.

Sunfan is an Angel. He targets star-crossed on Night One. sunfan is lynched the following day phase. star-crossed is targeted by a kill on Night Two. does she die?

Its post-humous yeah

star-crossed 05-7-2021 01:25 PM

Re: Sunfan's Modified C9++ Proposal Thread
 
Hi, somebody was asking on discord how to actually roll this setup if you are modding it.

I wanted to confirm that it is like this:
1. Roll 7d100
2. Compare your rolls to the table with the letters
3. Use all the T letters to find out the wolves and neutrals according to the list. (Basically, low amount of Ts mean town is powerful, high amount of Ts means town is weak. The strength of their opposition, corresponds to this.)
4. Use all the non-T letters to find out the town special roles according to the list. (Having several different letters is going to mean there are a lot of different, weaker types of roles. If you have a lot of C for Cop, then there will be more investigative power, etc.)
5. Write down all those roles you just figured out, and then add more townies to make it 13 people.

Example 1
Rolled: 1,9,12,41,45,45,79

1=T, 9=T, 12=T, 41=T, 45=T, 45=T, 79=V
TTTTTTV

Town Roles: V = One-Shot Vigilante
Not Town Roles: TTTTTT = 1-Shot Role Cop + Godfather

[Setup]
Wolf 1-Shot Role Cop
Wolf Godfather

Town 1-Shot Vigilante
Townies

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Example 2
Rolled: 1,34,49,53,62,81,84

1=T, 34=T, 49=T, 53=C, 62=A, 81=M, 84=M
TTTCAMM

C is 1-shot cop, A is Angel, MM is 2 masons for Town Roles
TTT = Wolf Role Cop + Wolf Roleblocker + Wolf Godfather, Serial Killer

[Setup]
Serial Killer

Wolf Role Cop
Wolf Roleblocker
Wolf Godfather

Town 1-Shot Cop
Town Angel
Town Mason
Town Mason
5 Townies


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