Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

My two cents:

This probably won't be my only post on the matter, so don't expect me to cover everything.
To preface, I have not read the most recent game. I'm not attempting to minimize people's feelings or experiences, so if I say something presumptive about the recent game, assume it's at its face: presumptive. I am speaking on behalf of my own experience here.

Speaking as a general trend for FFRTWG, I would say hostility has been decreasing over the years. I firmly believe that what is perceive as toxicity and hostility has trended downward. I will make a few reference points of recent memory where bouts of toxicity have been tangible.
-Adam being force replaced as a result. Most people agreed his posts were disgusting (pretty sure they were re: someone's mental health, and therefore crossed the line being too personal
-rzr being super banned not only for cheating, but lying, making excuses, and insulting his way through the situation. The super ban came from the discussion afterwards for posts he directed towards choof which were personal and disgusting in nature.

These have had visible consequences. We recognize and agree across the board when someone is being overtly harmful to the community and/or specific people. However, these examples stand out since something was done. To not point the finger at anyone, let me bring in some scenarios where I might have been perceived as hostile. Take note that I have not been banned or reprimanded for any of my posts.
-See postgame for the most recent FE mystery game. IIRC, this is where I absolutely unloaded on Freezin for "being on a fucking high horse," insinuating that he was being pretentious and dismissive. I called people "fucking idiots" for their inability to play and solve mystery games. I'm pretty sure this can be construed as saying FFR sucks at mystery games.
-Deadchats. Most of these logs have been purged from existence, but I think deadchats are where other players and myself have been overly critical. This leads to some nasty posts at times, and I know I've tossed my share of "town is being so fucking stupid" or "x has shitty play this game."
-I'm pretty sure I went off on Red Blaster pretty hard after Mashi/DBP wolf team convinced him to vote for me/plop.

As I mentioned, I have not been reprimanded. For the first example, I know I apologized within the thread after cooling down. This brings me to my next point that has been acknowledged in the thread. Emotions run high. Games can last week's, especially large ones where things can really get down to the wire. A game with 24 people takes longer than 9 people, and by the end of a 24-person game, things get intense because you don't want to let your teammates or yourself down. Most people don't want to go so far just to lose. It's hard not being heard. When it comes to moderating this, how do you even measure and enforce emotions running high? Imagine someone's behaviour is labeled toxic. Can they lob emotions as a potential explanation, or is that going to be the only way people respond to accusations, and it becomes an excuse? This line of logic is a bit hyperbolic, admittedly, but I think it taps into measuring the "how do we deal with saying it was emotion" vs "said without emotions running high." I think it's impossible to distinguish perfectly.

One aspect of our culture that isn't necessarily accommodating, I think, is something akin to an "old boys club," where only a certain sect of users are taken seriously in-game (and out-of-game, too). I know I belong to this since people frequently take my reads with more than a grain of salt instead of moving past them. I know that this post will be taken seriously, so that's why I think it's important for me to respond.
I think certain vets here and new users have a bias pressed against them for possible reasons of inexperience, lack of results, user demographics, or general lack of trust. For new users, I think the inexperience and trust stand out, and for veteran users, I think demographics and results stand out. I know I'm guilty of making judgment calls on people's reads because they've had a trend of being wrong. I've glanced past certain users because I perceived their skill to be low. I feel like I've improved on this and judged less, but implicit bias is hard to move past once someone has said something that rubbed you the wrong way at one point. One example that I feel stands out is Lar. When Lar first started, he had his Lar method of analyzing votes and whatnot, and I know he was the subject of some lines of ridicule. His method didn't seem to get results, and it seemed like he was a one-trick pony that was constantly or mostly wrong. However, I think Lar is a beast at the game now. I do think he is taken more seriously now, but he has results that got him out of that social rut. Some people are not as fortunate and have a hard time posting and being taken seriously. I think this is an issue that should get some attention as well.

So, I think the calls on toxicity come from something I'm seeing as an exception and not the rule. TWG culture, I feel, was much more cutthroat and hostile previously, and I divulged examples from my past to describe the culture and what was deemed acceptable or reasonable behaviour in the past (in addition to the bans on unacceptable behaviour). On the whole, I think people are much less rude than before. If people are exceptionally rude now, I think they're standing out rather than being a part of the norm. As a community, we've banded together against poisonous behaviour. I think we've come a long way.

One last note: what is the definition of toxicity we are looking to draw and create rules about? What's off the table? Some more objectivity here would be appreciated (yes, I get we're dealing with a topic with subjectivity in its rulings). Like Charu is saying, does it cross the line of toxic? How do we know if it did/didn't? Were emotions running high? I provided some solid examples of what the community agreed upon as "too far," and would like to see discussion shift towards that in addition to my points about bias.

TL;DR
read my post

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i finally dictionary.com'd toxic and ima have to say....... no, because the qualifier "extremely" is too much

"extremely harsh, malicious, or harmful"

if we take the extremely out though then yeah fits the bill

but one person doesn't ruin the atmosphere of a game. i think it would be beneficial if others toned down too. idk why no one was bringing up this happening all game

issa multiple people thing. thanks

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

yeah this grinds my gears as well

wait what

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

ok also to be honest idk of an optimal way to enforce rules around toxicity. but i think laying down some ground rules would reduce incidences of harsh behavior. and i also don't know what those rules should be 'cause apparently compared to all y'all i'm a wuss and think things are MUCH MEANER THAN THEY ARE like i haven't been told that by ppl already but it's whatever

at the heart of this issue isn't a lack of rules though it's a culture problem and imo we have to reach a consensus on how to move forward

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

That snippet from Roundbox's post that Funny quotes deserves more attention because I feel nobody can deny that it happens a lot. Even in my own case and using myself as an example here, 99% of the time most of what I say isn't taken remotely seriously or looked at in and out of game, and I've been with you guys for years now. I'm not sure if it's because of how I was in the past, but in the POV of a new player if I noticed that I wasn't being noticed or taken seriously because I'm new (even if they're not new to Mafia) I wouldn't continue trying to play because it feels like there isn't a point.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

It's actually that simple, but the how is surprisingly more complex than it sounds.
The tricky part is that you need to be aware of what's affecting respect for everyone.
That is a colossal task because there's no way that I know perfectly how everyone thinks here and why.

This quickly convert into problems because I need to know what people needs in order to give it to them.
Entire games can deviate horribly if you force me to assume everything on my own.
Last game is a good example of that.

Most of the time, I have absolutely no clue how to make sense of how people post in this game.
What worked in the past, doesn't necessarily work anymore and it's pretty discouraging at times.

Even with the full information now that we are postgame, there's still things that doesn't make sense to me at all.
If I don't identify and understand them, I will probably keep getting wrong reads on players.

Toxicity is the consequence of something else. If you get through that something else, toxicity should go away.
I think that something else has to do with respect and trust over playing this game a long period of time.

So, I can echo on what Roundbox said.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Yea regarding the snippet that funnygurl quoted

I joined this community less than a year ago and this was definitely the first thing i noticed. People would ridicule me or dismiss my reads that I put a lot of effort in, and the same people would comment stuff like ''xxx is town'' with absolutely no evidence, and it really threw me off at the start. Though I'm used to the culture now, I don't put nearly as much effort into my reads these days as, i think, a result of my first few games. The condescending nature of posts is arguably more negative for TWG culture than the harsh language, though I do think some of Shadows and some of MMLs posts were just straight up unnecessary.

I will note that the condescending undertone has gotten a lot better. I found some people very condescending my first few games that seem to have stopped being so, so I think that is a positive thing, regardless of whether its to do with them or whether its to do with the fact that im not as new anymore and I've had some moments of proving myself

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Oh, I remember that.
Honestly, your reads were so good in your first games that I thought only wolf you could have come up with them.
I was really shaken to see you flip town in one of the first ones.
Please realize the difference between posting quality content and people attempting to understand if that content is coming from a town player or not.

They're very different things. I believe you did the "reading part" as good as it could have been done. It's just that there's this 2nd mini game where you need to rally town together as a team.
That is honestly probably the hardest part in TWG. You can solve an entire game perfectly and still lose if people doesn't want to follow up on your reads.

You're more close than you think of being in a good spot to have these great games.
If you can practice shifting game momentum and talking to others to like get on your side while still have quality reads, you will not just win, but also MVP a game.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I'mm-a echo roundbox at his TL;DR and say read his posts. It's a large post, but it's a really good large post.

I'm currently suffering the consequences of sleeping really late to dabble on his points. Will probably try again later after I nap after work or something (if I nap).

...

As for funnygurl's quotes on shadow, holy moly. I think Shadow did more insult flinging than MML this game. But when I read his posts, I don't get any malicious intent as I do when MML lets loose an insult even though I really should.

Roundbox definitely on the right track here with his really good post.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i've certainly been overly emotional in the past (good lord i'm ashamed of several year ago me) and i apologize to anyone affected by it

this game is intimidating enough to new players and it can be really difficult to get a foot in the door. anyone that doesn't hit the ground running and immediately produce dissertation-level reads list is dismissed out of hand at best and insulted at worst.

roundbox's post is good and i honestly don't have much to add to it. codifying what is allowable and what's not is important and i think any decisions and reasons for them would need to be public. this is not the sort of thing you can really moderate behind closed doors.

also i'd like to put my name in for consideration. i have a stupid amount of mod/admin experience on other communities and i've been in this one for a long-ass time. i love this place and want to see it continue to be the best damn twg/mafia community ever

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Same here. Lewdy is a very excitable person and just posts his unfiltered reactions to things

does anybody really think Lewdy actually wants to beat Subs with a chair? or is this just his emotional reaction to Subs doing a silly play?

Some people can be really mean spirited but Lewdy is not one of those people. he just isn't. He just gets super into things and has big reactions

Maybe can we have a vote of people who actually think this is a problem vs who does not see it as a big deal? Because honestly I don't see a problem and I'm more worried about scaring people like Lewdy away than the few newbies we may occasionally get. I do wish that Bugkid would play again but they also said they didn't like the format of forum TWG so even if the game went differently, not everyone is going to be into this way of playing.

I agree with Roundbox in that I think we have improved a lot over the years.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I still think that overarching limiting rules about conduct won't ever give enough specified and nuanced coverage of the interactions that go on in TWG.

I'm still thinking that having just an outside player, whether it be a host or a mod outside of the game be able to take concerns about conduct privately. Optionally, the report post button can be used, mods (including twg mods) will be able to see those reports, and can be reviewed case-by-case

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

so it's ok for shadowgod to make those kinds of posts but not mml

why?

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

obviously we're never going to be able to list out every conceivable thing that is okay or not, that's impossible. having some sort of code of conduct that we can point to and go "hey don't be like this" is a very necessary thing to have

add a catch-all "don't be a dick and don't explicitly try to find loopholes" and we're good. it's kind of amazing we've gone this long without a CoC tbh

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

further to this point making sure whatever method is used for working out problematic behavior is applied evenly to everyone is also super super important

a line will need to be drawn and certain people shouldn't be given extra leeway for whatever reason. if two people can make the exact same post and be treated differently for it then that's a problem that needs fixing

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

That's the difference between Lewdy and Lar. It's the same difficult to define characteristic of "I know it when I read it" but it is the intent and the intensity behind the words

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

what

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

hot take incoming

perhaps the community would be better off if we didn't insult each other all the time? regardless of intent or intensity or whatever, that's super hard for a newbie/outsider to work out. this is the kind of game that can get emotional but it really shouldn't be too much to ask to not actually insult folks during it

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I've been reading this and the other thread a bit, and I think that getting heated is sometimes very beneficial to a game, but should it not be up to the moderators to police/manage behavior that goes past the line? I think the outcome of this is to have a team of multiple people who can moderate properly and come to independent conclusions so as to avoid favoritism. Spirit of the game should be kept up but when people cross the line and it starts to get meta then they step in to stop it.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I mean it's not like we're out here roasting the shit out of each other.

For me, yeah, I can get pretty heated and emotional when I'm heavily invested in a game like this and I can fly off the handle. But it's all in good fun at the end of the day in my opinion and anything I might say, or if we're using Lar as another example should be taken with a grain of salt in terms of actually insulting people vs trying to get what we want out of them, which is information, thoughts, and opinions.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

sure, and folks who've been here a while and know the crowd understand that. but from someone on the outside looking in it could very much look like actual vitriol, especially during particularly spirited arguments

i'm not necessarily trying to say we need to be 100% polite to each other in every single action, but it definitely could stand to be toned down a bit at the very least

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I'm fine with being called out for anything I say that might come across as "toxic" or "mean". I do tend to hurl out light jabs at people when I get annoyed with them, but I'm not going for that Mike Tyson knock out punch if you get what I'm saying

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

adam requested replacement, I did not force replace him, just for the record

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I think that lewdy's posts there, even though they're obviously not seriously meant, would violate what I would want to move forward with
I know the intent behind words matters as well, but that can't undermine the impact of the typed words themselves

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i'm not sure what the best method for choosing the two new moderators would be tbh
I know two people (maybe more) in fg and makilaz have volunteered and maybe its as simple as that
force has been mentioned, not sure if he's said he'll do it himself
star has been mentioned as well
apologies if I've missed anyone

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

intent matters for sure but it can sometimes be really difficult to determine whether it was genuine (even in the moment and regretted after the fact) or just playful banter. this game gets really heated and that's fine, but it shouldn't be an excuse for being at each others' throats

i've tended to strive towards "be excellent to each other" sort of conduct in any community i've had a position of authority in and i'd like to see that happen here too

there's also the potential for one side to mean it to be playful and non-serious and the other side sees it in the moment as genuine and takes it the wrong way. it's really fucking difficult for tone and subtlety to be conveyed in text form and misunderstandings are common. if you're about to type something that could easily be misconstrued as being more nasty than you want it to be, maybe tone it down first

eta: i'm ready and willing to back up my mod/admin credentials if needed, but i'd understand if someone else got the gig over me

eta2: when i initially came back from my long-ass hiatus i was rather intimidated at the state of the game, ngl. game threads were so much longer and more active than i was used to and just at a glance players seemed a bit meaner and inclined to snipe at one another. i powered through this and realized it was not what it seems, but coming from a standpoint of 'we need fresh blood to keep this place alive' i'm in favor of doing as much as possible to remove friction from someone new coming aboard and playing. this very much includes toning down the jabs, even playful ones. it's too easy to take that as serious if you're not already steeped in twg culture

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Don't really think the twg scene is active enough to warrant having more than the 3 mods that there already are.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

A lot of mod sections appear to be outdated at a quick glance. I mean it says the health and fitness forum has 3 mods (do any of those 3 even post at all anymore btw) and that forum gets like one new post a month. Don’t think gatekeeping adding new mods means anything, especially when I think sunfan is the only one of the 3 current mods of TWG who is active

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

makilaz seems like a g

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I'd be down to do it if asked / if the community is cool with me being a part of it.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

already a gary's mod tho :^)

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

You're fucking kidding right?

Is everyone here five? Two? How old is everyone? Maybe fresh out?

That's what it feels like.

How can no one read those posts and understand the amount of intentionally blowing it out of proportion for effect those posts are? It's not toxic, it's hyperbole.

I thought reading between the lines was a game mechanic, apparently everyone here is shockingly shit at it.

An actual pity imho.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

that post is exactly the sort of thing we need less of, thank you for being an example of how not to behave

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Going forward, I shall post Rias Gremory pole dancing every time I get mildly upset in future games as a means to reflect upon my actions

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i think we know shadow's intent but it's still much, at least in my opinion. not even everyone here thinks it's too much though so you don't gotta bash everyone like that

but most of the posts were directed at subaru who first of all is newer and second is also younger than most of us

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Fair enough. Wasn't meaning to misrepresent anything in my post.
He was still agreed upon as being too much by the community.

Can you tell us what you mean by "move forward with"? It's still a bit vague.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

the real pity is that you're saying stuff like this outside of a twg thread.

you may still be living in the internet age of toxicity and cynicism being king, but there's something nice about being able to show people respect and kindness.

I think after collecting my thoughts, the clearest thing that I can say is - why does your TWG play and identity need to be based off of insulting and offending people, in a game of problem solving

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

You know what his tone is like.
I know what his tone is like.
Raeko, roundbox, sunfan, etc. They all know what his tone is like.

Now what about those who don't. Those who are newer to the game, or to the community. Are they going to see his posts and think, "hmm, I bet you he's saying this with a chuckle, a smile, and with a slight sense of sarcasm."
Probably not. And, whether you like it or not, that's what's going to keep this community alive.

Serious talk. How hard is it to actually be like, somewhat genuine and just -say- things without the need to throw a ton of swearing or personal jabs into it. You may not think we need to, but maybe it's something bigger than that.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

With all due respect YoshL, you are prime example number 1 of this mindset. Your toxicity before was... yikes.
Now? Very pleasant, would play with again, and it's this exact mindset that I think contributed to that for you.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

You're that type of guy though, who is genuine and doesn't throw jabs. Not everyone has that personality. Some people express themselves differently, more forcefully, with more "jabs" than you would throw. Some people have that fiery personality type. and that's not wrong it's just different

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Yea

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

This argument holds no water tbh because Subaru and I have interacted a lot outside of TWG, so he would know my tone and my sense of humor by now if you're pushing a point of me bullying a newer player.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I mean, I feel like I can be pretty sassy at times, but I do try to not go too overboard. The one time I did was the most recent Turbo I played where I exploded on FFA and had to simmer for several hours afterwards due to how heated I was.
I will personally say I went overboard in that moment, but that's just me.

And I'm not saying that fiery personalities aren't good, but it's like that post Charu made. You can get the same point across without having to resort to personal jabs.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Can we just make this TWG 198: Toxic Or Not?

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

In b4 I get told to take this thread more seriously

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i don't think you're bullying him-- think everyone here loves subaru too much for that lol-- but from post game i got a sense that even he wants to take a break

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

'scuse me miss could u take this thread just a bit more seriously thanks

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

7 pages in 48 hours, time to compare that to the game thread

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Yeah no offense taken, I recognize where I was and the kind of player/playstyle that defined me back then. I'm saying what i'm saying from that lens, from that kind of post-shift towards just trying to be a more empathetic/compassionate human being in more things that I do. As a result, tbh I haven't really had the want to play TWG because of still being somewhat locked into feeling like i can't get my point across unless some sort of hyperbole sticks into the posts haha

honestly in the end, none of us are dumb in this twg community. be considerate, use common sense, apply nuance to your reasoning instead of overgeneralizing.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

If the way you or other people in the community are acting is impacting negatively on the community you’re a part of, is that not something you think should be taken seriously?

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

*GROOOOOOOOOOOAN*

Fine.

My original point stands, in that since I've played with you guys, I've not seen any sort of toxic behavior.

Do I honestly see a need for dRaStIC change? No, no I do not. We all have our different ways of playing and poking for information. Even if some deem other people's methods to be "toxic".

Do I think we could be a little warmer to newbies? I'm not sure what we classify as "Newbie" around here. Are we talking as someone new to the community of FFR, new to the game of TWG, or both?

As a newbie, who had only ever played one forum game, it was a jTWG, and got tanked D0 as a wolf (Thanks Raeko) I shoved my dick into a bastard game, was given a roll that was basically Vanilla town unless I was killed by a certain individual, floundered my way around until an F4 and got steamrolled. Was this a smart decision? Fuck no it wasn't, but it gave me those harsh growing pains that was needed to develop a style of play that was comfortable for me.

My point for that recap of TWG hell is sometimes it's frustrating to play in a community as a brand new player, because I felt like my voice wasn't really being heard, which can be very disengaging for a player when they're playing a game for around a month

People just gotta take the deep plunge and read deeper into things, as opposed to screaming around saying that Person #1 is insulting Person #2 which is what we have right now from my point of view.

As for recruitment... Among Us is a thing. I happen to know that quite a few of us have played with MANY different people, so what if we gathered them together and ran a jTWG to get their feet wet?

Just my thoughts here.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

This is a kind of question that has a question to the question being asked, if you catch my drift

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

LOL I WAS DRUNK AT A COTTAGE SUCK MY DICK

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i want among us i wonder if i can long onto steam now. anyways, yeeeaa buddy it's a good idea

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Maybe a jTWG Turbo could be a thing

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I think if I keep coming in here, I'm going to get to a point where I just lose my shit like I always do. I actually can't take it.

I'm just gonna bow out.

Was fun I guess.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Dawg you better fucking sign up for the next game. We have memeing to do.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

what ground has been made in this thread realistically?

I still don't get what the actual problem is, or the solution being proposed

this honestly just seems like drama at this point ngl

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

This

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Re: Among Us, I know that's actually encouraged a friend to play (again. They played one game several years ago. I wonder if anyone can figure out who).
With that said, a jTWG-esque Turbo, or just a basic Turbo would be cool to roll, imo. I know I'd sign up for it.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

What I was thinking was a jTWG turbo with all the fresh recruits we have

We watch and cackle in delight as they argue with each other and vote town off one by one until the wolf gets tired of pulling the charade and gives up

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Funny thing is that's happened.. a wolf actually committed seppuku in F3 because of the stress. Either that or it was a town.

Either way, watching the all Team Quebec F3 end that way was shocking, to say the least.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I'm not kidding
lambast me all you want, its not good for the environment of the games

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I mean like
its a hard question to answer, and it'll still always be vague

but I do want a general shift towards just being decent people inside the game, that's the simplest way I can put it

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Does this involve more memeing or less memeing?

I am serious about my Rias Gremory post.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

No ground is being made because the people who the thread is targeting are refusing to find fault in their ways and the people who recognise the problem aren’t able to identify a realistic solution.

I really echo what Makilaz has been suggesting, and agree a lot with what Roundbox posted as well.

Could it be as simple as disallowing personal insults? I’m sure there’s negatives to this too, but for sake of coming up with a tangible solution, I’ll start here I guess.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

I feel like very little has been done in engaging with my post. Let me roll my sleeves up a bit

First, for those that did respond: thanks. FG, to answer your question, pointed and cutthroat play used to be the rule, not the exception. Over time, I feel like it's become the exception, not the rule of general player behaviour.

Now, can we try and engage some of the points I've made? I feel like things are moving forward without nearly any consideration of my contributions.
-We've agreed unanimously as a community when certain people are stepping far out of line
-Overt rudeness and harshness, I feel, has decreased
-As a previous offender, I pointed to my downward trend of spiciness. Deadchats, as they stand, are breeding grounds for personal attacks.
-Getting heated and emotional is anticipated in a longer game. How do we draw the line to moderate this? Is it even something we can define?
-Implicit bias controls the hierarchy of vote/read importance. There is a clear divide in newness/experience. Perceived skill/lack of skill. Male/female or other. As someone who occupies the beneficial side of all these equations, I look back on situations where I've not believed someone's read or taken as seriously as another due to some of these.

I don't know. That's really how I feel at this point. This whole thing just feels like decisions are being made in the background without too much being said in this thread. My understanding is that at least one person in the game had a bad time. Maybe this is wrong, but work with me here as I'm in the dark. There are absolutely, unequivocally, zero problems with someone having a problem with another user's behaviour. I've had chats with TWG mods about individual players, so I've been there. However, this was dealt with in private. Why this thread? It just feels like we're putting Lewdy, Lar, and Xel on display. Why not talk to them in private? Why does this have to be aired out here with people taking potshots and low blows?

The thread started off by proposing adding another mod. Now we're up to adding two more? Where did this come from? It seems like conversations going on outside of this thread are influencing decisions and not what's being discussed here. I feel like what I'm saying is falling on deaf ears.

-What is the idea moving forward? This is still not clear. I've only heard "more mods," but what specific aspects of behaviour or code of conduct content is being pondered?
-To achieve meaningful change, first, you must have acknowledgement. After that, you can discuss solutions. I don't feel like we've hit either of these stages.

I don't want FFR to die. Hell, I submitted a 13 player game to Freezin earlier. Please, someone, elucidate me.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

This begs the question of "what's a personal insult?" which is a can of worms that I'm sure no one really cares to open.

Like generally saying "You're an idiot, lmao" is not an insult

Telling someone "Your IQ is so fucking low, I'd have to give you a shovel and three weeks in order for you to find a single point" is an insult.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

yet twg posts are toxic :rolleyes:

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Got crossposted but whatever I'm bed

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

..

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

hey i mentioned havin a vet on standby for SUPPORT thanks

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

- Agreed
- Possibly, I cant accurately confirm. As a relatively new player, I often find a lot of the conversations as still unnecessarily harsh
- I’ve noticed a downward trend in a lot of players, in all fairness, which I see as a positive thing
- I don’t believe it is something easily defined, which is why I suggested something to do with personal attacks, as there’s no need for a space for those on a problem solving game
- I personally find this the biggest issue, but as you’ve sort of stated, it’s only something that can be tackled on an individual level, not by the mods

For the record, two extra mods is potentially too many, but I don’t really know the background or reasoning why or even who is a current mod other than sunfan

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

Like it’s a theoretically good idea, but would the role of the vet in this instance be what a mod or hosts job would normally be?

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

this thread isn't about them three though. like i only brought shadowgod into the mix because i was like "hello this is a community thing." i don't mean to come off as defensive though, eh. i just don't think the issue is a few players toning it down. y'all are saying that the community's improved, which, sure. i wasn't really around from 2015-2017. i didn't see how bad things got if they did get bad. but what i've noticed from 2018-2020 is it feels /worse/

lmao beats me man i never know what's going on

i think we should have some BASIC RULES
some COMMUNITY SUPPORT
some OUTREACH thanks

i'm like unpleasantly surprised that most people don't see an issue with the twg culture here. it's whatever though. i mean, if y'all are satisfied with how things are going then maybe no change has to happen

im just saying the community will continue to shrink lol

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

If we're all STILL saying "what's the point of this thread?" then the last 100+ posts have been completely fucking useless, including my own.

All of us are in a giant hamster wheel and we're going nowhere.

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

host, no, because the host knows game information
mod? perhaps, but what if the mods want to play the game. you can't rely on a few people doing it all the time

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

ok but hear me out my idea about having someone sit down is EASY. it doesn't necessarily CHANGE group culture, and it would help retain newbies

y'all we used to have coaches for the jtwg'ers we can do this

ok one more thing: y'all the whole not listening/acknowledging newbie reads stuff like actually stunted my twg game. i took a break for a bit and played on other sites and i found that when i was assertive with my reads i was much better than i thought i was.
that really broke my heart when i figured that out
so anyways i hate that some players (like ya girl) are routinely ignored. y'all can ignore me though 'cause like i'll just win as a wolf again but don't do it to other people. thanks

Re: On the subject of Toxicity/Community Check-in (TWG)
 

i'll post more tomorrow morning
2 mods came from yoshl being fairly inactive and manti being extremely inactive (both of them responded very quickly when I have needed them over the years, don't get me wrong) and I think having two mods here would be alright

5 was the number of the council (which I hate as a term) back in the day so I don't think 5 is too big of a number