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-   -   Expanding the difficulty spectrum (http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/vbz/showthread.php?t=128166)

Zapmeister 01-9-2013 11:41 AM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
If we're going to introduce "??" or "???" ratings are we just going to use them for intractably hard songs, or can they also be used for things like omgwtft0k3n as well, like we discussed in the other thread? I mean people have hugely differing opinions on it, and you might argue that it doesn't deserve a rating at all since the difficulty isn't solely derived from the arrows themselves. I've already explained how I play it like something in the 20s (1x speed, +2 offset, use restart trick to move arrows to middle of screen and hit the arrows on the perceived beat while ignoring the precise positions of the on-screen arrows themselves).

ssbmchamp 01-9-2013 12:42 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bballa48 (Post 3831537)
RATO being 98 and VROFL being 99 makes no sense. The score gaps between the two songs are MASSIVE.

I agree and disagree with you. Yes there is a massive gap, I get that. However **IF** we keep the 1-99 scale:

1)VROFL is a 99.....no arguement (unless of course you expand the system)
2) RATO I think should be a 98 because despite a huge gap, RATO is the second hardest song in the game and, IMO, in its own category, thus being fitting of a 98.

Also a couple other things...If you wanna get technical about the massive difficulty gap with VROFL and keep it proportionate then RATO and DP should be the ONLY songs to reach the 90 mark (RATO 92, DP 90) and all these other songs people have in the 90's would then have to go into the 80's. This is why in my other post I suggested expanding the scale to 1-105 or even possibly higher to more accurately place songs. And to whoever even thought about the idea of making VROFL a difficulty of "??"....no offense, but that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That's just the lazy way of saying "I don't feel like changing a few things around so we'll give it a mystery ranking." It needs to be either 99 or, if you expand the system, a value in the hundreds.

Poison- 01-9-2013 12:44 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Vrofl shouldn't be on the scale at all...

TC_Halogen 01-9-2013 12:46 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI (Post 3831434)
TWWW, p4u v1, and vrofl being unrated ?? I can agree with since those are tokens and they mess up the difficulty scales hard (TWWW having a ridiculous spike at the end, p4u having zeroframers that make it go over Death Piano physically, and vrofl being uncomparable to everything else).

Before I go into the ratings OWA posted, does this mean 90+ is still the 13 border and 77-89 is 12? (talking old scale here)

With the current expansion as the list shows, I would say that 91+ is the new 13 now, and then 78-90 is 12.

EDIT: +1 to RATO being moved to tokens; it's unfathomably hard to score on and requires a retarded element of luck to get a good score -- I have a worse score on DP, but I can acknowledge it as a file that tests many things at extreme levels compared to RATO, which is just speed/jumptrilling...

SK8R43 01-9-2013 01:01 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I actually wouldnt mind RATO being moved to tokens. It doesnt fit in with the other public songs and is really just a dump. vROFL should definitely be off of the scale as i already mentioned and list is looking good guys!

popsicle_3000 01-9-2013 03:04 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ssbmchamp (Post 3831619)
1)VROFL is a 99.....no arguement (unless of course you expand the system)
2) RATO I think should be a 98 because despite a huge gap, RATO is the second hardest song in the game and, IMO, in its own category, thus being fitting of a 98.

this is exactly the same thing you posted in your last comment...

the debate is whether vROFL should even be included in how we rate files. the whole purpose of this thread was so that vROFL isn't, RATO is 99, and we can spread out the higher FGOs. having a top rating of 105 is just weird, and then there are still unused ratings.


btw, I'd be happy for RATO to be moved to tokens. and not just cuz it's one of my worst lvl ranks heehee

foxfire667 01-9-2013 03:17 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3831332)
Oh good point. IMO putting RATO as a ranked file was the main mistake in the first place, but I doubt it'd be converted into a token at this point, even if the token is easily attainable. I wonder how many people would dispute that...

I doubt that anyone will have an issue with it, granted the token is fairly easy to obtain. Seeing the mash fest that is RATO leave the main level ranks sounds like a great thing in my opinion.

Then it will probably go down the lines of vROFL, where the chart is ridiculously hard and silly, but no one cares because it's a token. So the overall appreciation level of RATO's in game existence might actually improve if the change is made.

Coolboyrulez0 01-9-2013 03:23 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
RATO as a (skill) token? I'm all for it!

One Winged Angel 01-9-2013 03:33 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
92 looks like it'd be lowest FSO at this point, although I really don't have a problem extending that boundary down to 91 considering the hilarious spikes present in songs at that level (although Vortex will probably get pushed down if it ever gets frame treatment). I don't like the current 1-20 splits using this new scaling for the most difficult files, but then again, I've been hoping we could go back to 1-13 for quite some time now.

I don't have a problem with RATO being moved to tokens, as long as the unlock req is simple enough for players of any skill level to gain access to the file once again.

Without going into too much detail, I can agree with swapping Jamais/Husigi ratings and bumping up longer songs like Shotgun Surgery. I agree with what Eze posted about 8bit Tour and AT being of similar difficulty though. Tons of one handed bs present in 8bit Tour's trillstream, and even though it's almost 20bpm slower, I think many players find that section a lot more difficult to PA/combo than AT's 32nd run, so gonna keep those two together for now at least. WEYX probably should've been 81 to begin with so I think it's fine where it is on the new list. 11Eleven 'dense jumpstream -> one handed jumptrill -> 32nd bs' section could push it up to 82, I don't have a problem with that. Everyone's good at Eclipse nowadays for some reason beyond me, so maybe it's fine at 89? Objectively speaking, 330bpm should really be FSO material, but the patterns are so incredibly comfortable to hit...really iffy on that one, gonna leave it where it is for the time being.

Gonna switch Jamais/Husigi in the OP (Jamais fits in well with EP), as well as bump up Shotgun and 11Eleven (and maybe a few other longer songs). If bballa doesn't mind this thread serving two purposes now, might as well bring up any other songs you guys see fit to be tweaked in this thread instead of potentially having a bunch of threads once these changes are live.

edit: I'll update any changes to difficulties I make without discussion in the thread at the bottom of my first post in this thread, just in case I do something really hilarious that none of you agree with so you can all call me out on my crap :')

stavie33 01-9-2013 03:34 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
If RATO moves to tokens, I may get back into the game. It's been destroying my lvlranks forever. Honestly, RATO is a terrible file and should be the highest 'real' file in the game. vrofl was a joke so it shouldn't be on a scale, it should be treated like a joke, there is no way to objectively compare that file, or TWWW and P4U to any others, because what makes them challenging are things that no other file has, things beyond comparison and beyond objective ranking. How do you rate 0 framers?

On another note, I'm still unsure if CP should have a rating as well, I guess it's fair to put it in the 90's where OWA has it, but I've never like the idea of objectively placing that file, the spike is ?? material, the rest of the song is 40 range material, so it's still odd.

I pretty much agree with OWA's list though and would be fine if we adopted it.

bballa48 01-9-2013 03:39 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by One Winged Angel (Post 3831775)

Gonna switch Jamais/Husigi in the OP (Jamais fits in well with EP), as well as bump up Shotgun and 11Eleven (and maybe a few other longer songs). If bballa doesn't mind this thread serving two purposes now, might as well bring up any other songs you guys see fit to be tweaked in this thread instead of potentially having a bunch of threads once these changes are live.

Let's do it!

Also, those changes look good.


Thoughts on Storm Raid Battle going down to 84?

It seems quite a bit easier than the other 85s, although I may be biased since the file plays to my strengths.

Poison- 01-9-2013 03:41 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I agree Storm Raid should be at 84. 83 seems too low, and 85 seems too high, so 84 is perfect :)

DossarLX ODI 01-9-2013 03:48 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
While Death Piano is more doable than RATO the scoreboards show that they're basically no better than each other, both could be at 99 statistically. Death Piano IS actually harder to FC, RATO you can mash more lazily but DP you actually have to jack fast to FC in the first place.

I can also see Husigi being above Jamais Vu. Jamais Vu doesn't go any faster than 230 bpm 8th jacks, it has difficult transitions to get out of but Husigi is harder to FC and manage one handed transitions out of longer jacks and weird dense bursts.

If 92 is supposed to be the border for old scale 13, I can agree with them except for White Walls Part 2. White Walls Part 2 doesn't have that many plays but putting it that low when the scoreboard is that messy is just silly, and 4 levels under Revo is even more silly.

Vortex in its current frame state is ridiculous to even HIT and is definitely way above 92 but with treatment it could be on the border. The file itself is hard to hit without screwing up transitions, especially getting out of those 64th walls.

It's nice that Winter Wind Etude got moved up. More statistics are being considered here now.

CCCP is placed a bit high... the file is difficult to AAA, but so are files like DeVouR etc. someone who can't FC long jacks like in slashmaid or J'ai would have a much easier time playing through CCCP.

I wish Crowdpleaser would be taken off this list because it's one of those files that have ridiculous spikes. Crowdpleaser is one of the only files in this game that has 1 framers and a trill almost 50% faster than Death Piano's trill (240 vs. 170), with terrible patterns to hit where it has 64ths.

One Winged Angel 01-9-2013 04:21 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
SRB should've been moved down, I forgot that it received frame treatment to remove all the two frame jumpjacks shortly after being released. Fine with 84.

More thoughts on DP and RATO sharing 99? Eze actually mentioned to me that he finds DP to be the more difficult file, but I pushed him to have RATO rated one point higher as I believe that's the general consensus. If ability to just FC is weighted more heavily here, they could share the same rating. But I think most top tier D6 players can PA DP better than they can RATO.

I honestly think the spikes in WW pt. 2 aren't any more difficult than the spikes at the end of System Doctor. The anchor jumpjack section in WW pt. 2 is much more manageable to hit than the jumpjacking section in Revo. It's just like hitting a faster Bloodmeat trill, whereas Revo is nonstop awkward anchor jumpjacking after a certain point. At the risk of sounding biased, I've AAA'd WW pt. 2 all the way to the quarter note jumptrill (at which point I choked like a bitch lol), but from that point onwards, the one handed 12th jack section and 24th trill stream is really just upper-mid FGO material imo. I'm positive I can AAA WW pt. 2 if I put the time in, and I think a lot of D6 players can PA the file much better than other 93+s (but rarely anyone's gonna play it because ffr token files never get played lol). I don't think it needs to be pushed up from where it sits atm, but hey, if you all think otherwise...

CCCP is rated higher because of hilarious difficulty to AAA, but the scoreboard looks like it could be pushed down, so I'm fine with that.

Vortex I'm gonna keep where it is for now because as soon as it gets frame treatment, it's going to play like a 90 or possibly even an 89.

TC_Halogen 01-9-2013 04:30 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
White Walls Part 2 is definitely FSO, but I agree with it being at 92 and no higher. It doesn't need to go anywhere. It's my worst > 95 FSO, but replay analysis shows for me that if I stop being lazy and speed up on the first anchored trill, I'd AAA the song (lol).

Vortex is fine as well; the hardest sections of the file are no less common than the hardest sections of some higher FGOs (64ths? not too hard - ending patterns? not worse than Schmollbluk, me thinks).

The whole AT/M8BT argument doesn't make sense to me though, the problem with AT vs. M8BT is that you're doing a constant 150 BPM 32nd stream that forces you to transition into and out of mini-trills in AT, but you get interrupted with a lot of easier patterns in M8BT that allow you to regain your bearings, in addition to the song being 10 BPM slower without a constant point. How are these at all comparable?

bmah 01-9-2013 04:38 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by ssbmchamp (Post 3831619)
I agree and disagree with you. Yes there is a massive gap, I get that. However **IF** we keep the 1-99 scale:

1)VROFL is a 99.....no arguement (unless of course you expand the system)
2) RATO I think should be a 98 because despite a huge gap, RATO is the second hardest song in the game and, IMO, in its own category, thus being fitting of a 98.

Also a couple other things...If you wanna get technical about the massive difficulty gap with VROFL and keep it proportionate then RATO and DP should be the ONLY songs to reach the 90 mark (RATO 92, DP 90) and all these other songs people have in the 90's would then have to go into the 80's. This is why in my other post I suggested expanding the scale to 1-105 or even possibly higher to more accurately place songs. And to whoever even thought about the idea of making VROFL a difficulty of "??"....no offense, but that is quite possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard. That's just the lazy way of saying "I don't feel like changing a few things around so we'll give it a mystery ranking." It needs to be either 99 or, if you expand the system, a value in the hundreds.

It seems more reasonable to make a difficulty scale with difficulty values more evenly partitioned. That's why RATO as a 98 doesn't at all belong within the company of vrofl as a 99; as hard as those two songs are, vrofl is still indescribably much harder. If I had it my way, vrofl should've been a joke song that would briefly appear before being removed, just like Whimper Wall. However, it's been immortalized into the FFR song list at this point, so now I see "??" as making do with file borne out of bad judgment. People would rage if this joke file was removed from the game, because this file was the top reward for official tournaments.*

The other suggestion you've made on expanding the difficulty scale further into the 100s becomes a little too detailed; and of course, people just find it more likeable to have a difficulty scale constrained within a 100-point value. Because I highly doubt anyone would remotely want a file that comes close to vrofl in difficulty, having vrofl as the lone "??" seems acceptable.


*~IDEA~: MAYBE if vrofl was removed altogether and replaced by another completely exclusive song, still only attainable through winning tournaments, this would solve the problem. This would work perfectly if it isn't for people hanging onto nostalgia of vrofl's infamy. I don't miss vrofl, but others might. Solution: make vrofl yet another token of sorts, have the former vrofl token turned into a different song. Future tokens handed out from official tournaments, as well as those that previous winners already had, will turn into the new song. The scoring table for vrofl may need to be transferred when it becomes a new token, if that's possible.

Guest15937 01-9-2013 04:56 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Honestly, if "??" ratings are implemented, TWWW and omgwtftok3n should get them along with vROFL because the difficulty of these songs are so variable from person to person. vROFL could also get a "???" rating (to signify that it is 100+, harder than anything else on the songlist)

ssbmchamp 01-9-2013 05:00 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by bmah (Post 3831831)
*~IDEA~: MAYBE if vrofl was removed altogether and replaced by another completely exclusive song, still only attainable through winning tournaments, this would solve the problem. This would work perfectly if it isn't for people hanging onto nostalgia of vrofl's infamy. I don't miss vrofl, but others might. Solution: make vrofl yet another token of sorts, have the former vrofl token turned into a different song. Future tokens handed out from official tournaments, as well as those that previous winners already had, will turn into the new song. The scoring table for vrofl may need to be transferred when it becomes a new token, if that's possible.

I will cry if you get rid of VROFL....like literally cry. That's what's motivating me to get to 50 bil. Idc how "shitty of a file it may be, I want it! If that get's taken away I would probably stop playing.

Pseudo Enigma 01-9-2013 05:01 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
I'm all for vROFL being removed completely. It's a joke file that even though has a very good achievement value in, is not an actually good file. If that thing were submitted today I am sure the judges would obliterate it with [--]s and then laugh about it. We should think about the overall quality of our files.

bmah 01-9-2013 05:01 PM

Re: Expanding the difficulty spectrum
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Guest15937 (Post 3831857)
Honestly, if "??" ratings are implemented, TWWW and omgwtftok3n should get them along with vROFL because the difficulty of these songs are so variable from person to person. vROFL could also get a "???" rating (to signify that it is 100+, harder than anything else on the songlist)

I've discussed the "??" on Skype with a few other people earlier, and I also mentioned those oddball songs you've listed as well to be within the "??" difficulty. However, we need to be careful in choosing what songs to elect. We don't want "??" to be a garbage dump for all sorts of weird files. Then again, a lot of weird files simply exist when they shouldn't be in the first place.

Maybe "??" isn't the right way to describe it. Maybe, like in movie DVDs, we should call these files "extras". FFR Extras. That might help legitimize this unknown difficulty being a place to put all sorts of weird files, regardless of their natures. They could even be described as "out takes" of sorts - files that were previously in the main game but put aside.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ssbmchamp (Post 3831861)
I will cry if you get rid of VROFL....like literally cry. That's what's motivating me to get to 50 bil. Idc how "shitty of a file it may be, I want it! If that get's taken away I would probably stop playing.

Yeah, I thought some people would still want it. That's why I thought vrofl could be branched into another token, while the token that you normally would get from achieving top 8 in official tournaments will become a NEW, exclusive song. You'd still have a goal to look forward to.


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