VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

or rather, the Horowitz center claims this.



https://www.dailywire.com/news/34955...witz-paul-bois
https://www.splcenter.org/fighting-h...david-horowitz

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

this could be bullshit, since I have never heard of anything like this before.

I want it to be bullshit.

but if it isn't, this is one of the most important domestic US stories all year.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

what I am suspecting happened is that the SPLC, or some group like this, bombed his organizations with deliberately fraudulent investigations to get VISA to investigate.

this is not much different than bombing videos with many fake reports to get algorithms to remove the content.

if that's true, we cannot keep accepting complaints at face value, and this whole system of "trust people's complaints first" is a glaring vulnerability that threatens the integrity of information as a whole.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Are you gonna post in this thread after your opening posts or are you gonna abandon this like all of your CT threads

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

the lifetime of a thread is, ostensibly, months

not replying for a few hours is not "abandonment"

moreover, stay on topic. you know what you're doing.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Nah

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

maybe Horowitz freedom center got blocked because, you know, it's a hate group lol

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

that's... clearly the implication of why this is an issue. are you paying attention? at all?

it is possibly one of the worst precedents the american economy and american politics could set in the past decade for a group's commerce to be able to be blocked by credit card companies because of any sort of political label, nevermind anything as vague as "hate group."

in what universe do you not see your position as backward and completely wrong

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

wow dang i didnt realize the act of letting a credit card company freely choose if they want to do business with a racist organization would be such a terrible precedent

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Visa and Mastercard are private companies who can decide to conduct or not conduct business with whomever they decide, end of story.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

it is difficult to compress the scope of how wrong both of you are into words that properly convey how false each and every thing you said was. it is mentally taxing to walk on the eggshells created by this rule system to convey the gravity of other people believing the non-thoughts both of you just typed, while also skirting the asinine rules that prevent me from "insulting" you because telling a person they are wrong on every axis of evaluation and every scope to which a thought can be conceived is "insulting", even though this is precisely how wrong you both are.

it's unbelievable that both of you even halfway buy what you're saying, and you've clearly not thought about it at all, as you both are parroting pseudo-libertarian mockery you undoubtedly repeat ad nauseam for any speech policy issue so that you don't have to think about the ramifications, or the policy, or what the words even mean.

it is illegal for credit card companies to discriminate in this way. this is why, up to this point, they have not.

what is most likely happening here is that the SPLC bombarded VISA with fraudulent transactions to flag the horowitz center.

either way, this is what you did

person: wow, this company is blowing up the moon
you: lol a private company can blow up the solar system if they want

how you post here with anything resembling an unguilty conscience is beyond me.

what both of you are thoughtlessly advocating is something that is already illegal, and far worse than what is actually going on, even though what is actually going on is one of the most concerning events to happen all year. it is not common, at all, for a credit card company to block people for speech. this is concerning period. you are wrong, whether or not you think so, for not making this a concern of yours. you are against the "right side of history" -- you cannot be on the right side of history if you are on the wrong side of reality. it doesn't matter what you feel. your feelings don't matter. you're wrong. you are not right. you are the opposite of correct. you are backward. you could have never existed and your opinions could have been adopted by an AI machine and run forever as the passing of time is extended indefinitely by simulation and they'd be wrong until the heat death of the universe, and even after that.

and here you are, typing happy-go-lucky shit with the bambi-esque tone of "this could never be redefined to work against me because I have all the right ideas!" as if you don't understand the concept of precedent, or principle, and you cannot think at all how any sort of thing like this could be abused due to whatever limits on imagination exist for you or your political sensibility.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

lmao

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

you have zero self-perspective and warped priorities, what else is new.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

ok

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Business: We're currently doing a thing as we have the freedom to do so.

Majority of customer base that keeps business afloat: We don't like the thing you're currently doing and may take our business elsewhere as we have the freedom to do so.

Business: Hey, we like keeping the business of the majority of our customer base, we'll stop doing a thing

Minority: Our questionable morals aside, we will ignore the fact that illegal and legal is defined by the majority of society and bitch about not realizing that we're in the minority on this due to being blinded by some misguided since of principality and gross exaggeration.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

tps222

did you read my reply, whatsoever

even so much as the bold text

did you

yes or no question

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Yes, that's why I addressed the "illegality" argument as well as the absurd exaggeration part.

We have innocent kids being detained and sexually abused in immigration camps, but no, fucking David Horowitz's foundation being blocked by credit card companies is truly the worst thing to happen in America all year, because of the precedent, right? lmao get real.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

jesus christ you actually buy your own delusion.

you are the reason the "one death is a tragedy" quote even exists, because you are focusing on melodramatic news tragedies and refusing to see the larger picture. the idea of a precedent being used to chill political speech is something not-real to you. this should be immensely concerning to you but somehow it is not.

the precedent is immensely worse and has far more reverbertions than a few hundred people. this has nothing to do with the horowitz center, and for me to even need to clarify this means you have not put even the most token effort in understanding why this is important. independent of the center (<-- read) it sets a precedent for how commerce can be used applied to speech across the country, and sets the tone for political disagreements for years to come. yes, this matters more. actually. in-reality. really. profoundly more. you are wrong for thinking otherwise, and not just kind-of wrong, but the kind of wrong that gets put alongside lamarckian evolution and other "wow, I'm glad history never gave a shit about that" viewpoints.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Lmao

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

taken to its logical extreme you would shred a right to public education or constitutional rights or any other civil liberty of this kind to stop human trafficking or any other small-picture tragedy

what is so bothersome about this is not that it's wrong

it's that the wrongness is so easily gotten to if you would just think about it

this is the cognitive equivalent of watching a whole TV show because you're too lazy to pick up the remote

you are smart

how the fuck do you justify this crap yourself

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

alfred's not wrong here guys lol

okay mayyybee with the "this is the worst thing all year" that might be a bit of an exaggeration. but this shit is dangerous. whether the horowitz center is a bunch of jerks or not isn't the issue

weren't you all mad when some baker said it was his constitutional right not to make a cake for a gay couple? no matter how you see it, if you boil the stories down to their essence they're the same deal

also i love y'all so please stop this isn't tgb don't gotta spread the hate into chit chat
sayin' this to everyone
you can argue w/o being mad
spread the love

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I can't wait to find out what crucial piece of information is selectively being omitted from this scenario to artificially spark outrage

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

your concern is in the right place. the horowitz organization is undoubtedly leaving something out, so it's a question of what.

I want it to be bullshit, because then that's one less thing to worry about

paypal's actions are concerning, but ultimately, you can start a competitor to paypal. it is difficult, but it exists.

for VISA/mastercard there is very little alternative. both go through merchant services. starting a new alternative is similar to starting a new ISP.

the actual nature of the organization is unrelated. VISA could block the SPLC itself and this would still be a big deal. mccarthism was bad when applied to communists, and it's bad when applied to the opposite of communists.

what I suspect will happen is that horowitz will have to sue the organization in a similar way to how the SPLC was sued for defamation, and this will have to happen a fuckton more times, and then this shit will stop.

but it's unreal that people here think in the universe they thought existed it was okay for VISA to selectively block payment to organizations based on speech. what the fuck.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

something someyhi g slipery slope falachie

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

oh yeah depending on the merchant service that horowitz is using they may be getting browned out due to lack of pci compliance

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

that's a fair criticism to make, because I know where you are coming from

but the slippery slope fallacy is causal, not categorical. i.e. "if gays get married, then snakes will get married to people." the precedent does not allow for the cause of gay marriage --> snake marriage.

however, it is justifiable to say something like "if we accept that dwarf planets like pluto can be exploded by the Death Star for fun, it's not a stretch to explode the whole solar system" because the planet category can be stretched, it's not jumping from cause to cause.

here, "hate group" is vague, so anything can be defined as a hate group, or the category can be re-defined later on once the group defining it is no longer in power. muslim groups were targeted unfairly post-9/11, and black groups during the civil rights era, and so on. you cannot predict what group will be undesirable next and it is immensely arrogant to think you are invulnerable. (I don't mean you = choof, but you = hypothetical person.)

this is super dry and boring, but it's roughly how the fallacy works and it's the best I can do in a pinch.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

yes but what if pluto was filled with a bunch of white supremacists who'd have no issue death starring a multicultural planet

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

omg

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

lmao

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I kind of agree with this sentiment -- situationally

For me it boils down to power dynamics: institutions with more power have a disproportionate amount of influence when it comes to... well, a lot of things. YouTube in particular has a similar kind of problem, where content creators get flagged whenever they portray certain IPs in a negative light, regardless of whether or not Fair Use is invoked. The ones that flag the videos (the "complainers" in this case) almost exclusively win these fights because YouTube just automatically sides with the flagging party, regardless of context -- this is, more or less, because the flagging party tends to have more power: they're executives, back by legal teams, etc.

Sure, free market and blah blah, but "with great power comes great responsibility" -- and, obviously, Visa/Mastercard have a lot of power.

With that said.

That doesn't vindicate Horowitz in this kind of case --- I'm pretty sure there's something we're not privy to at the moment, some subtlety that justifies whatever is going on here. Perhaps the complaints were legitimate, perhaps Visa/Mastercard already have performed an investigation, whatever. I have the feeling that something like this doesn't "just happen" arbitrarily, especially at these higher tiers of corporation (compared against the bakery situation, which was rather arbitrary, occurring a low corporate level).

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

to break from the tone of the first page for a second:

thank you, backpack, for taking the time to read this and comment thoughtfully. I appreciate it.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I think this is a false equivalence but yeah

If I can give my two cents on a larger matter.

I think there are just some situations that are impossible to reconcile in a logically consistent manner. The government emboldening these hate groups hurts the civil liberties of others. The government denying these hate groups -potentially- hurts free speech. Is there a middle ground? Probably, but I sincerely doubt that any concessions made will result in a logically consistent system.

As a specific example:

I've started to think that sexual assault cases are fundamentally incompatible with the current legal system (or, at the very least, the legal system's reliance on forensic science). Somewhat axiomatic in forensic science is "Locard's Exchange Principle", which states that any two bodies that come in contact leave trace evidence of the contact. This is remarkably difficult to apply in sexual assault cases for obvious reasons. Rape kits are unreliable, and other trace evidence is difficult to prove "beyond a shadow of a reasonable doubt".

And yet, a fundamental principle of law is that defendants are innocent until proven guilty.

I've been thinking for a while that something's gotta give here. Should there be a different protocol for handling sexual assault cases? Maybe. It just seems as if the legal system is inherently contradictory sometimes. "Justice for the victims" and "innocent until proven guilty" can sometimes be diametrically opposed.

Coming back to this example:

There is a philosophical incompatibility with "securing the civil liberties of Americans" and "free speech." That's why the meaning of free speech has changed over history -- we now know that you can't incite violence, directly endanger others, etc. So I would imagine that in cases like this, censoring hate groups might be a thing that happens. It -does-, strictly speaking, violate free speech, but it instead values "civil liberties" for historically oppressed groups.

I know Arch is more well-versed in law than I am and he probably won't like this answer, but, I wholeheartedly believe that philosophical incompatibilities exist, and, through some means, we as a society dictate what values are more valuable than others.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

If it helps contextualize my responses, my background is in mathematics and formal logics.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

the sexual assault thing is an interesting side-discussion and if you post it in a separate thread I am more than willing to have that argument. you're a good interlocutor so I wouldn't mind.

I do have one comment to make here though:

there is some writing about this worth reading:

1. most important: https://freespeechdebate.com/case/th...t-to-violence/
2. important: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...rst-amendment/
3. less important, but still good: https://www.theatlantic.com/national...-quote/264449/

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I'm kind of bothered by the amount of people who are for taking down opinions they don't agree with
Let people believe and think what they want to, diversity in thought keeps humanity thinking
It's not they their fault if you're too stupid to give counterarguments
Resorting to filthy backhanded tactics that graze the edges of the law is disgusting

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I'm bothered by the amount of people who think a meaningful discussion can even arise from the assholes on this site

Oh wait the point isn't convo it's for everyone to stroke their egos

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

ok bye

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Oh wow everyone agrees with me on "insert moral dilemma here that has obvious solution and implications" someone debate me.LOL JK I just wanted to tell u all how right I am xD

Plot twist none of you are smart, none of you are nice, everything anyone has said in any thread has been repeated from things that have already been said

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

If it helps contexualize my responses my background is dealing with pompous assholes

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Ya bye see ya nerd

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Jesus

If I wanted to read someone belittling everyone on the site for being "wrong" about something, then I'd just go to GameFAQs or something...

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

i wonder why komochii's so angry

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Well okay, not "everyone". Just two people.

Still though

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Got blocked by VISA/Mastercard probably.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Boom, gottem~~~

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

LOL

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

never change charu

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Thanks

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

ignore him, he's just baiting

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Pot Kettle [Black ANOTHER]

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

God damn it

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

there's some good news: VISA denied involvement, and it appears to not be an explicit decision by VISA. this is in contrast to PayPal's recent decisions, where the company did admit involvement in blocking certain accounts for speech-related reasons. so if it was a decision at all, it's due to some kind of automated fraud detection a la report abuse.

this rules out the worst case scenario, which was far more worrisome. I was hoping this was the case, because Stormfront would have been first on the chopping block ahead of the Horowitz center. I still can't believe some of you are conceptually okay with the worst-case outcome. you have warped priorities if you think that would not be disastrous.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

the worst-case scenario would have been a hate group not receiving money which is actually a good thing imo

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

no, the "hate group" label is useless, vague, and irrelevant. the term "hate" is meaningless, and more ideological than substantial.

the splc's definition in particular has not been meaningful in any way. https://www.law.com/americanlawyer/2...20180724171554

what a given group is able to do, and therefore what sets the standard for what is posssible and what people are okay with -- aka, societal and legal precedents -- is far more important than whether any given group receives money or not.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

LOL best thing posted in this thread

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

my questions are

what did DHFC do to deserve this flak?
this spreading of spiteful and biased information?

even if Horowitz himself has different political views from whoever is starting this,
it should have nothing to do with the business he runs. (by this, i mean the ability to keep said business up and running shouldn't be affected)

the flow of money is all these credit card companies care about anyway,
why would they give two shits without a sound reason?
otherwise anybody can go around pointing fingers at whoever and saying they did stuff and everybody will believe them.

this isn't the 1700's

one more question.
who's to say the organization spreading this information isn't jumping the gun or making a mistake?
biased media can be quite the spectacle when it turns out the people calling others out is wrong.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I remember having a passing conversation with Sky Kitten once while at Anime North where she went to a major grocery chain in Ontario here, and they could take VISA but not MasterCard, or vice versa, I forget which one it was exactly. I pressed about whether or not like the service was just temporarily down but no, they just didn't accept it.

Regardless, the point stands. Life will find a way.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

So people are saying, who cares, if people hate a hate group... their a hate group

edit: they deserve to be hated, even though certain people hate that the people are hating them o_o and this further implicates universal hatred D:then everyone will love to hate :3

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

I have a feeling posts like this are not gonna age well. now even your payment processors/credit card handlers are getting their greasy hands in the virtue signalling ring? just move money and shut the fuck up jesus christ.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

pretty bad analogy i think

but this is still valid

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

oh so we're having objective morality over here huh

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

it would be helpful if you quoted who or what you are responding to

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

heY WHat even is a melongrap BOi

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

is what I was responding to

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

WHERE ARE YOU PEOPLE GETTING THE INFORMATION THAT THE COMPANY IS RACIST

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

you're going to have to expand on the point you're trying to make. sorry. i don't follow. i think its valid to proclaim that the definition of "right ideas" is subjective and it is always possible with this precedent in place for someone to stretch the definition of right and wrong as to shutdown opposition. the people calling the shots aren't always going to be aligned with your viewpoint.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Yknow I'm trying not to engage this thread in any actual argumentative sense

but when you word your arguments (?) like this

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

horowitz? it's members are pretty staunchly anti-muslim. which, yes, isn't a "race" per se but I dislike the term "islamphobic" and I doubt that the members only dislike brown ppl

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

you're projecting.

everything i find is saying that Horowitz is a far left conservative, he even claims to be so.
even if it were true that he was lying and discriminated, It hasn't made it into his public practice as far as i can tell.

None of this should have to do with whether he is able to use a credit card company.

and before anyone starts projecting onto me, saying i'm against muslims or i'm for white power, I'M NOT. i'm just tryna figure this shit out

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

what am I projecting lol
also I'm fairly certain I didnt call them alt-right or indicated any political leaning, I'm not sure if being a "far-left conversative" automatically clears you of not liking muslims

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

where's the proof

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

choof gets his facts from a lady and a cat

edit: pussy squared boi

edit: \[]/

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Proof of what?

Also, self-description from Horowitz that he's "left-leaning conservative" doesn't actually mean anything. Actions and incitement > words

If you want "proof" of bias, just check the verbage in the letter in the OP.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

If you want proof of anti-Islamic sentiments, this is from their website metadata:

"We are dedicated to the defense of free societies whose moral, cultural and economic foundations are under attack by leftist and Islamist enemies at home"

They also run a blog called fucking Jihad Watch. So, yeah.

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

can I just have to point out

"We are dedicated to the defense of free societies whose moral, cultural and economic foundations are under attack by leftist and Islamist enemies at home".

you mean economic attacks like VISA/Mastercard blocking payments and leftists like those that agree with said attacks?

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

dayyyum

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Looks like the DHFF didn't do a very good job then ☹

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

Those damn leftists, always trying to undermine democracy ☹

Proof? Well we don't have any proof, just take our word for it!

Re: VISA/Mastercard blocks payment to Horowitz Center because of SPLC
 

what am I projecting tho