El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

First and foremost, I just wanna make a disclaimer here. I'm not making this thread to start any trouble because it happened either yesterday or the day before. Point being, with the flags being at half mast for the next week across the states, I just wanna get my thoughts out on this.

It saddens me that some people with vile intent would actually take time out of their day to kill 20-30 innocent people who were more than likely going about their day and more or less keeping to themselves or having a friendly chit-chat with friends about whatever. It's 2019, and America has already had over 200 mass shootings in various locations across the country. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if other nations called us "crazy assholes with guns."

It really sickens me that people would pull stupid shit like this, and what's worse is that some people are blaming it on a stupid shirt for being the reason for the shooting. Why? The shirt is completely moot, as is the weapon used. I wanna make the point that while the gun WAS used and is, in effect, involved in the shootings, the REAL thing to put the blame on is the shooter himself. Not the gun, not the shirt. It doesn't matter what the crime is or the method of carrying out said crime. The person committing said crime is ALWAYS at fault. And in 2019, people STILL don't understand this very simple fact.

I get really tired of crap like this and it just puts me in a sour mood if I'm being perfectly honest about it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families and close friends of those victims. As for the shooters, I KNOW they'll get their comeuppance for this.

Again, I'm not trying to stir shit up. I just want to get this out because I feel it needs to be said. Feel free to discuss, but please keep it respectful. We're all a community here, and the last thing I want is for the whole thing to fall apart. Also, if something like this ISN'T allowed, the mods have the right to delete if needed.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Pretty sure that ready and easy access to guns of that sort absolutely contributes to these things. I mean...there's a reason almost every single one of these shootings of the last several years used the exact same kind of weapon.

People like him exist in every country in the world, but only one of those countries has a massive endemic problem with mass shootings. And there's one clear and obvious difference between the USA and the rest of those countries.

Disenfranchised people? We've got those.
Racists and White Supremacists? We've got those.
Mental Illness? We've got that
Violent video games? We've got that
Bullies in schools who victimize people? We've got that
Access to the internet? We've got that.

We have -every single one- of the things that get trotted out as the "Cause" of these mass killings, except we don't have a constant sequence of mass killings.

You should be asking yourself what's the one thing you have that we don't have.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Obviously the shooters are the ones responsible, your third paragraph is a red herring. The relevant concern is:

---The weapon dramatically increased the potential damage. 30 casualties (9 deaths) in the span of a single minute is a huge liability for this country. If the dude only had a knife or a pistol the extent of the damage would be much lower and he would be easier to stop. THAT is one of the major principles of gun control.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I'm gonna preface my response with this:

1. I own a pistol for self defense.
2. Equally, I have a license in the state to concealed carry said pistol. I typically do not at the moment, but intend to.

It's 2019, and America has already had over 200 mass shootings in various locations across the country. At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if other nations called us "crazy assholes with guns."

We have inner turmoil in the country over gun rights. I'm all personally for being able to own say a pistol, and a non automatic riffle for say hunting, or home defense, along with a shotgun. For someone like me, it's very comforting that at the very least, there is a chance the field is either skewed in my favor, or me and the intruder would possibly be on equal footing. Not really interested in the notions about regulations here though.

It really sickens me that people would pull stupid shit like this, and what's worse is that some people are blaming it on a stupid shirt for being the reason for the shooting. Why? The shirt is completely moot, as is the weapon used. I wanna make the point that while the gun WAS used and is, in effect, involved in the shootings, the REAL thing to put the blame on is the shooter himself. Not the gun, not the shirt. It doesn't matter what the crime is or the method of carrying out said crime. The person committing said crime is ALWAYS at fault. And in 2019, people STILL don't understand this very simple fact.

People are blaming things? I softly disagree, and have to actually say they're led to believe because of how hard media influences choices. To blame the music, or even fucking video games though, is such a far fetched opinion you'd think we'd long be over this by now.

The person had issues, and decided the best way to go about trying to force change (misguided as it is) was to shoot people to get their message heard.

But like I said, it's sort of a moot point in 2019, until these types of people realize that social media is actually the correct way to sway change it's rough. And if someone wants to argue this with me I'm just gonna cite that you need to look at the modern social justice movement, and then get back to me.

We literally have someone in the world, in a nondictatorship, who was tried and convicted of offending the public. You've got to be kidding me.

I get really tired of crap like this and it just puts me in a sour mood if I'm being perfectly honest about it. My thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and the families and close friends of those victims. As for the shooters, I KNOW they'll get their comeuppance for this.

It sucks, and if better people had surrounded those people maybe it wouldn't have been a thing.

However I disagree that the shooters get their comeuppance. People are going to run their name around, and people now know who they are. They got what they wanted.

Fuck these people though. As much as I fucking hate the use of social media, I'd rather deal with that, than shootings.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

There were 'good guys with guns' at several of the last few mass killings. In general they either do nothing, or accidentally also kill some innocent people. "good guys with guns" at the Vegas shooting -fired back at the hotel- for god sakes.

In El Paso, police were on the scene in 6 minutes, by which time 20 were already dead.

In Dayton, the police stopped him THIRTY SECONDS after he started firing, by their own reports. In that 30 seconds, 9 died and 27 more were injured.

With respect, your gun is not protecting anybody from these people.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

people were talking about this on the discord briefly yesterday.

personally i think everyone should have a gun, for self-defense (or, fuck it, whatever). there's no need for an automatic weapons or any of those things where you can fire a ton of bullets at once. (idk about guns; dunno the terminology.) evidently, the harm greatly outweighs any potential benefits (edit: i said it was only harmful before. someone could /probably/ think of a potential benefit)

obvious restrictions should be on people with either a violent criminal history or people who are seriously mentally ill (i.e. have potential to harm themselves or others). so, i support background checks, but i'm wary of a system where the government can control who could be armed or not, because that historically works against disenfranchised groups.

i'm very against banning firearms in public spaces that don't have adequate protective measures in place. at my old job, no one could carry firearms, but safety against shooters was so bad they were soft telling us we were fucked at training. that's... scary.

edit: @devonin what America also has that Canada and other countries don't is a culture of mass shootings.

@ULTIMEGA if the "shirts" are MAGA shirts, .... well... sorry to be all political on you, but the current political climate rn is fostering the growth of anti-immigrant sentiments. the link between Trump's rhetoric and mass shootings against minorities isn't causal, but the former is a contributing factor to the latter.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I can't even begin to describe what a bad idea this is, supported by literally all the evidence.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

hey i said there should be restrictions

Man it would be really swell if the NRA would let the CDC investigate gun violence.

But instead they decided to be complicit with white nationalism, oh well.

Like for fuck's sake, when are we going to have the testicular fortitude to stand up and say "enough is enough"? This is disgraceful.

Oh wait, I forgot, capitalism is the only moral framework that matters in this country. Fuck me

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Let me elaborate.

In that situation, I am disinterested in using mine to defend anyone but myself, and anyone who is with me I care about personally. Random strangers? I can't say I particularly care about saving any of them unless the correct type of opportunity is presented.

Do I think it'll help in a mass situation? No. That's not why I bought it.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Well I hope for your sake that you don't join the majority statistic of people who own a gun for home defense, and use it, discovering that they've accidentally shot the aforementioned people you care about personally.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

doop

Yeah I know 1993 but if that matters check the 1998 correction or any of the articles that cite this one

EDIT: Not as a complete dissuasion, I understand that gun ownership in the home can provide some sense of security and safety, just keep in mind that there is indeed a tradeoff here

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I wonder how many stories don't get reported when a "good guy with a gun" saves the day.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Given the extent to which the media falls all over itself to do anything BUT criticize guns, and given how many networks constantly push the 'good guy with a gun' narrative, I would hazard a guess that all of the stories where they save the day get reported.

The last time I heard a story of a good guy with a gun actually getting involved in the actions going on, the bouncer of a bar who had a gun saved the day, and then when the police arrived, since he was black and had a gun, murdered him.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

so guns are always bad? unless your a non-racist cop..

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

That's the kind of false equivocation that gets trotted out any time somebody levels a reasonable criticism against America's lax gun laws.

"We should improve gun control somewhat"
"So you think all guns should be ripped out of our hands and destroyed?!?!"

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Lol i'm saying there are times where having a "good guy with a gun" around can be a very good thing. It's not black and white.

Can you even show me, say...five such cases in the last 10 years? And then argue whether those cases justify the offsetting hundreds and hundreds of not prevented mass shootings?

If the cost of 'good guys with guns' who might get to save the day 1 in every 2000 mass murders is the other 1999 mass murders, I don't think you're arguing a very sustainable point.

From the study that DBP linked above:

Owning a gun puts you at a larger risk of being murdered, not a lower one.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I looked and found several different sites that have way more than 5 cases and you can easily find them with a quick google search (litterally top links on the first page). But I didn't want to get into a stats/math argument with you I was more just wanting to bring the consensus on "guns are always a bad thing" more towards the middle where I believe the truth lies.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I'll go out on a limb and say that yes, civilian gun ownership for purposes besides hunting and sport shooting is always a bad thing.

Edit: I suppose on further reflection, I need to explicitly account for people who live in rural/farm areas where there are actual animal predators capable of killing livestock etc, but I mostly lump that in with hunting.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

How did he get an "ak47 style rifle" btw I haven't heard

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Theoretically it can be a good idea. But would you allow 10 more El Paso shootings to happen if the "good guy with a gun" only pops up a single time? Based on what we've seen those are just terrible odds to bet on, so little it's not even worth entertaining seriously.

EDIT: Maybe there's a middle ground but asserting that Batman with a gun is gonna save us from mass shootings ain't it chief.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

that's a good question.

@dabackback
I'm not betting on the good guy with a gun to save the day... i'm just saying that at least that's better then nothing at all.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

i don't think this is an appropriate statistic to support the claim you're making.

when you share a home with someone, you trust someone enough to be vulnerable with them, so oftentimes you wouldn't actively think to protect yourselves against them. so, the presence of a deadly force in the home will increase the risk of someone who already wants you dead doing it successfully, granted they have access to the gun themselves

but the statistic shouldn't be used to defend guns not being at home, or on someone's person. rather, the gun that someone does have should be safeguarded against others, especially those with precarious mental states. and while i'm at it, children.

this is almost as bad as if my "everyone should have guns" comment were unqualified

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

-----but is that small percentage a worthy tradeoff for the larger percentage of crimes you could pevent entirely

that's the question

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

This specific paper controls for mental instability and histories of violence. That said, I'm not sure the conclusion dev made is justified by this paper by itself. I listed it to challenge the notion that "gun ownership in the home" is a sufficient condition for "being safer" (to some degree of confidence). The correlation is not that simple: there are factors, known and unknown, that actually raise mortality in these situations.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Maybe they're a *bit* too prevalent though if all these 21 year olds can buy them no prob. You think a 21 year old skin head could afford black market weapons?

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

rip i should read LOL

edit:i guess to be clearer this invalidates my recommendations

i don't think cost'll be a notable prohibitive factor to someone who wants to kill a bunch of people

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Complete prevention will never happen and arguments like this are often used to refute any attempt at solution-making. "Nothing will work completely, therefore let's not do anything."

Incremental change is still valuable.

I also want to point out that nobody thinks that gun control is the only step required to reduce gun violence. Gun control is a part of a larger plan that we think can reduce gun violence.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

i think gun control is good, but like sanjixcon i don't like it when people say that guns are bad

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Right now, all I have is a knife, not that I think it would do me any good, but I have considered getting a gun. Briefly. Solely for the reasons that I think Xel purchased his.

Its a scary world; I can't fault someone for buying a weapon for the reasons Xel has. I know statistics suggest that you're significantly more likely to shoot yourself or someone you care about than you are to shoot someone who intends to do you or your family/friends harm, but owning a gun for those reasons still seems to me like it provides the most peace-of-mind.

The US is absolutely, entirely, completely beyond fucked up when it comes to guns and access to guns and obtaining a gun as easily and readily as possible and fuck you if you ask someone what they're going to do with it. An interesting bleak outlook on the world is whether or not you think the United States will significantly bring down the mass shooting numbers before Florida ceases to become a U.S. state because its entirely underwater.

So, between just putting any kind of concern out of mind that this could happen to me or anyone I care about and owning a pistol "just in case," I completely understand why someone would want to have that 2nd option.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

For stopping the shootings, there's absolutely nothing that the United States will consider doing within the next 15-20 years that will stop these events from happening. And 15-20 years is extremely, extremely optimistic. These events are not going to stop until the public does not have access to these kinds of weapons that can unload a large number of rounds in a short amount of time. And the United States is not even close to reaching a point where its even possible to consider this change happening.

A large part of this, I believe, stems from America's obsession with the Constitution. The founding fathers themselves could not have predicted the shelf-life that we've slapped onto that document, yet here we are, 300+ years later, still thumping our tables to the guarantee that the government will not quarter soldiers in the homes of civilians in times of peace.

Things have to change in a big way for America to stop being such an eyesore to the rest of the world. I think it would be beyond drastic, and my views on how this would happen are nowhere near feasible, but I think we need an entirely new basis for what America gets its values from before anything can change. We're stuck in the past because we have an obsession with a document that has outlived its purpose, only in letter.


EDIT:
I see this said often, and I agree that loosely-organized crime and above will definitely do this for years after America fixes its gun problem, if it ever does, but you mean to tell me that these mass shooters will get their hands on automatic weapons illegally to carry out these crimes?

I have nothing other than my intuition telling me that the harder you make it for people to do something, the less people will do it. Certainly, some people will still do it. But the number of mass shootings has to go down if you make it harder for people to get their hands on these kinds of weapons.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I still don't know any relevant facts, because nobody talks about them
I know the shooter was a white kid
I know he had an "ak-47 style gun"
And I know 29 people were killed in two different places
Where did he get the gun
What kind of gun is it
Where did he get ammo
Did he share his plans with anyone?
Etc
None of this is being talked about so how do you expect to fix a problem without any context of the problem?

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Not all of the facts have been discovered yet, when they're released we can talk about those too. But why not talk about stuff we already know?

I know he shared a manifesto on 8chan, minutes before he started shooting. Which is another drop in the bucket as to why 8chan is a shithole that should be burned to the ground.

sunfan coming in with the money shot

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I've heard of 8chan
That place shouldn't exist for several reasons

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

do they have a mafia community

yeah, it will go down, but by how much? relative to the determination it takes to commit mass murder, how much would it take to illegally buy a gun?

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

No

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

you would think the fact that 8chan exists only because users were mad about 4chan banning child pornography would be enough reason to nuke it from orbit

but nope, 8chan was only dropped by Cloudflare because they're going public in a month

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

my intuition (which I know isn't anything, I'm not trying to solve this issue just giving my hot takes) says that these people probably don't have the connections/funds needed to illegally buy a weapon like that

that shit is gonna be hella expensive on the black market, so probably it would go down by a significant amount

my bigger problem comes from people keeping their weapons because they believe the government can go to hell for trying to take away their weapons

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

yeah, at this point i don't have much but my intuition also, but my intuition says the opposite would occur :P

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I'm just curious why the shooter is always a young white male

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

There is a trade off on everything. Statistics aren't something I'm versed in well enough to argue, which is why I made my posts based on my own emotions.

We can sit here and argue statistics and the logical approach all day, and I am very certain we'd arrive at the conclusion that guns are more bad than good. There are going to be people who make horrible use of something. You can only try to stop it if it's in your physical means of doing so.

But as someone who is never winning a physical encounter with my own physical strength, and wit alone, I'm happy that I have access to something like a weapon. It's a comfort and I'm responsible about it.

The shorthand is that everyone is arguing just logic and are allowing maybe just fear to dictate their choice. A responsible owner is going to keep it in a way that won't harm someone unless needed, and that's how I intend to be. I'm not gonna walk around waving the fucking thing, most people won't know it's there.

Shootings suck, fuck those people.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

This is how I feel, I am smol weak little man also

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

White People™

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

how so?
I don't see how that is feasible

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

ok by opposite i don't mean mass shootings would increase but that the decrease would be insignificant

going by addict mentality, if you really want it you get it

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I'm just gonna be a good boy and stay inside and play/watch/discuss video games as humanely possible when I'm not obligated to be somewhere else.

...

These shooters should find a hobby if their answer to (probably) some petty, ridiculous thing is to go somewhere with large amounts of people and start shooting it up. Sometimes the shooter even commits suicide, so it's a never-ending "what was even the point?"

USA has it bad, and it's been getting worse over the years. First it was only schools, but now they're happening in everyday locations, like Walmart.

I'm no gun expert by any means, so I don't know what solution could even be made with this problem. Perhaps they could go the way of what most other countries do and just make it next to impossible to get a gun. I'm sure that's already been expressed multiple times anyways, lol.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

racism, white supremacy, even access to guns.

those things don't cause shootings.

you have to be on a crusade to shoot people.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

The white part is cause America is mostly white people

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

people will always, always, always slip through the cracks because humans

yeah, you're right, but you're proposing an impossible solution

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

yeah but that crusade is often spurred by the desire for a white ethnostate or some other racist bullshit, and you can't really go on said crusade if you CAN'T ACCESS GUNS.

I firmly believe gun ownership is going to be part of the US for the rest of its existence but any time I see these bullshit arguments my depression worsens.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Nukes don't kill people, people kill people!

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Lets not make laws against murdering people. If murdering is illegal, criminals will still murder!

Like...come on now. This is one of the saddest and weakest objections to a claim that civilian gun ownership is generally bad and shouldn't be allowed except for hunting, sport shooting, and farm protection.

"But criminals will still get guns!" I have a few things to say about this.

1. Funny how all the places with more gun controls don't have a major gun crime problem like the USA does. So controls on access to guns, which you say criminals will just ignore, isn't resulting in criminals doing all kinds of gun things anywhere else.

2. I need to go find the actual study in writing, but I know a study was done where they went and interviewed a whole bunch of convicted criminals in prison for armed robbery with guns. These are all people who did it, admit they did it, were tried and convicted, so there's no issue with them claiming innocence or trying to do anything to get them off easier. They were all asked, among other things "Why did you use a gun in this robbery, why not something else?" and the -overwhelming- answer was "In case the homeowner had a gun." So you having guns in your home for 'protection' has the -direct- effect of making criminals MORE likely to use guns themselves, hugely increasing the risk that somebody dies from gun violence.

3. Limits on civilian access to guns would also depress criminal access to guns by reducing the total number of guns available, reducing the market for guns both legal and illegal, and it's not like anybody is suggesting "Just ban guns" and call it a day as a one-step process. Among other things the penalty for using guns in crimes could be increased etc to act as a further deterrent.

Fundamentally though, nothing is -ever- going to fix America's gun problem. The problem is guns, but the cause of the problem is intrinsic to American culture and the people in power have a vested interest in never addressing or changing the root causes of the problem, so it will never actually get better.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Seemingly impossible.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but it sounds better than one that won't work.

You can't make guns inaccessible.

Look, I'm all for gun control, especially perfectly reasonable screening etc. But it's just a bandaid and a pat on the back, while the wound is still there.

This is literally why nuclear war hasn't happened.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

guns dont cause things like this to happen, it just lowers the entry requirement so now any dumbass can do stupid things with a gun.

if it was harder to do this shit (e.g. no guns) then more people who would be willing to do something like this would likely question themselves and ideally stop, or they would be dumb and be terrible at making a plan and end up getting stopped earlier

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

laws aren't there to prevent people from doing things that are bad, they're there to punish people for doing said thing anyways

i would like to believe that even with a law saying murder is fine or w/e then the rate of murders in actually developed areas with intelligent people would barely increase, but realistically humanity is gross

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

theres gangs in other places in the US, of predominately african-american people, where there are probably far far more killings than the amount in a school shooting, its just not brought to public attention

whats better for a news article, reporting that "a bunch of bright, young students with big futures ahead of them were suddenly...", or to report "a bunch of gang members were found dead on the intersection between 12th and 18th street.. locals say that they were known for selling drugs, suspects appear to be rival gang x that wears a different color of diaper"

as to why its always a white male, i think they just have different culture lol.. like for example, ive noticed in most cases of school shootings and whatnot, they go into a whole backstory about how the perpetrator was abused, had a horrible childhood etc

yet when someone from a different race has a horrible upbringing, abuse like that, etc, most likely they wont even be going to school in the first place lol, imagine some young black boi who has no mom or dad so just hangs around on streets all day, people like that arent gonna be in school to carry out a shooting lol

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

cursed post

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Homocide and Mass Shootings are entirely different categories of thing. White people do plenty of Homocide as well. But mass shootings of mostly strangers is a pretty uniquely white thing in America.

I'd suggest that in the current political climate they would LOVE to report on a bunch of gang violence especially by non-white people, especially anywhere even vaguely close to a border.

They almost never were though. Like, the Dayton shooter I believe, the news has been reporting widely that he was bullied in school. Several people who -went to school with him- have since come forward to say that not only was he not bullied, he was himself a bully with a history of threatening violence especially against women.

'Black people don't do school shootings because black people don't go to school' is one of the most disgusting takes I've seen in a very long time. This is like, coming close to being bannable as racism, and you should seriously look inward if this is a thing you honestly feel.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Just wanna point out the fact that the majority of gun deaths are actually suicides

In 2010 in the USA, 62% of gun deaths were suicide and 50% of successful suicides were committed with a firearm (https://lawcenter.giffords.org/gun-d...es-statistics/)

Personally I think that if you advocate for mental health assistance and suicide prevention, you also have to advocate for gun control or else you're a bit of a hypocrite

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

"theres literally no way to stop this from happening" claims only country where this happens on a regular basis

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

no one is saying that in this thread
people are saying that its not going to change anytime soon

if you're just quoting that one Onion article for the sake of quoting it, good for you

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

re: dingmles

Yeah, in some sense I think the fixation on White People Crime by news media is a form of casual racism: when poor black kids commit multiple homicide, it's seen by the public/MSM as mundane; when it's a white kid, it's sensational, exceptional: after all, mass homicide isn't a White Person Thing™

One other relevant thing is that most of these mass shootings are terroristic in nature: targeting random people in public spaces to further an agenda. On the other hand, gang crime is generally more focused and insular. (Still evil obviously, but to the average White Viewer, a bunch of gang violence in shitty ol' Baltimore City is way more distant than violence in the sacred public space of Wal-Mart)

So yes, race is inextricable from the discussion of mass shootings and its reporting

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

i never said that people are saying that in this thread in this thread

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

I didn't want to say it, but this is an entirely thread worthy thing on its own.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

we're all pretty aware that racism towards whites isn't possible in america unless you're saying that the fixation on white people killing other white people is racist towards minorities

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

The casual racism is towards minorities

because when the populace see something like black shootings it's """par for the course""" and thus less of a spectacle

but when the Righteous White Man starts shooting, it's seen as abnormal, thus the media coverage

EDIT: This is apparent over the years in how it's always about mental health when it's a white shooter. This is because "white people aren't like that, so this white shooter has something wrong with him."

When it's a black person or a Muslim, it's terrorism or thuggery. There's a clear double standard.

DOUBLE EDIT: To be clear, I'm asserting that America is afraid to admit that white people have historically been "holier than thou" when it comes to violence, but engage in it just as frequently as (if not more than) other American populations.

And that realization is gonna be real fucking hard for this country in particular, given how our culture and heritage has specifically capitalized off of the systemic and systematic oppression of the "other."

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Well any shooter (regardless of race) has to have some kind of mental health problem

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Regardless of whether this is true or not----

Mental illness is 100% every single time a diversionary tactic. A convenient scapegoat that makes white people comfortable, because if it's just "a couple of guys with mental illness", nobody has to actually introspect and critically analyze the culture. It demands no change to the status quo.

"I'm not a part of the problem. There is nothing wrong with me. That guy just had mental illness, something that was totally out of my hands. Nothing will change for me personally."

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

What a fundamental misunderstanding of entitlement and privilege. I mean, yes there's a tongue-in-cheek argument that somebody who thinks they are so owed things from other people that murder is an acceptable response to being denied those things is definitely sick.

But the idea that "Nobody in their right mind could do this" basically lets people off the hook by letting them hide behind an illness that doesn't exist. And lets people with financial and political interests in the status quo avoid having to acknowledge their responsibility.

Every country has mental health problems. The rest of them don't have mass killing problems.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

scapegoating mental illness for mass shootings not only avoids the rEaL iSsUes but also increases the stigma towards the mentally ill population

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

do you guys really think the shooters are sane people??
come on. anyone who decides to kill a bunch of people is fucked in the head

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

That depends on whether you are using a clinical, or a gross pop culture definition of "sanity/insanity"

I think they have a lot of internalized anger and should be in therapy. I think that toxic masculinity needs to be addressed at a systemic level, but no I don't think these mass shooters are "crazy" in most cases.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Port Arthur Shooter who was mad at the world and wanted to kill a lot of people: Not insane by my non-professional opinion

Plenty more people who aren't "insane" they're just "mad at something in particular and have guns"

Surely, there are some people who are insane who commit these crimes but nah

I don't think that every person who commits these crimes is insane

definitely not perfectly mentally healthy tho

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

Yeah no fucking shit. Brilliant tautology.

Are content to throw up your hands and say "oh well! it's mental illness" or would you rather actually face reality and find non-trivial causes and solutions?

EDIT: Mental illness doesn't make you sit down for a month and plan a massacre on Mexicans. Don't you think that... MAYBE... there are other reasons behind that?

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

If you can not control your anger and it leads you to only one possible conclusion: to kill as many people as you can, then yes, your fucking crazy. and you need help.

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

No I don't think you can reasonably say "this person was willing to kill other humans" and say there was absolutely nothing wrong with them

Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)
 

no one is saying that
people are saying "insane" isn't the right word