Old 05-8-2008, 06:29 PM   #1
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Default Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

It's been suggested that as a general service to the stepfile making population of the site, that an overview of how copyright works with respect to permissions for FFR would be a good idea.

Speaking generally, any work created by somebody, especially artistic works or "works of the mind" (That's music, literature, etc) is their property and cannot be used without their express permission. With regards to FFR this generally must take the form of express written consent, and may need to be doublechecked by requiring the person claiming to have recieved such consent to put the site administration in touch with the artist to confirm that permission was given.

FFR will not use any music that is someone else's intellectual property without such consent.

This doesn't mean, however, that every piece of music you could possibly want to use requires permission from the artist. Copyright is not permanant in any area of the world that I know of, and eventually, all works enter what is called "The Public Domain"

Works in the public domain can be used by anybody for any reason without any need to seek permission.

The primary legal concept dealing with entry of works into the public domain is called the "Berne Convention" It is an agreement that has been signed by 163 different countries, including every major country I believe has any likely chance to have generated music we'd want to step for FFR.

The basic premise of the Berne Convention as it regards music says this:

1/ Countries can set the length of copyright to anything they want as long as it is NOT LESS THAN 50 YEARS AFTER THE DEATH OF THE AUTHOR,

2/ The copyright law applies in the country that the work is being used in now, regardless of where it originated

3/ None of the countries are allowed to require formal registration of copyright to grant copyright protection

So, for our purposes, anything that was made by someone who died FROM JANUARY 1st 1958 AND ON IS COPYWRITTEN AND YOU MUST GET PERMISSION TO USE no matter who made it, where you live, where they lived, anything. If they died from 1958 on, automatically you need permission to use it.

But as point 1/ suggests, countries can extend this further if they are so inclined, and in fact many (read: most of them) have extended that minimum from 50 years to 70 years (This covers the United States, and the Entire European Union from the get go) That means ANYTHING PUBLISHED BY SOMEONE WHO DIED FROM 1938 ON IS PROTECTED and you must get permission to use it.

As you'd expect, there are naturally exceptions to this, depending on when the countries signed on to the Berne Convention, and older stuff has seperate laws, so I'm going to go through a couple countries with specific differences from the 70 year standard.

United States - 70 years after death for anything published after 1978. 95 years after publication, or 120 years after creation whichever is shorter, for anything anonymously published or made for hire since 1978. Anything published before 1923 is public domain regardless of the circumstances around its publication

Canada - 50 years after death, as per Berne, not extended to 70

The whole EU - A flat 70 years after death of the artist

Japan - 50 years, as per Berne, not extended to 70

France - 74 years, 272 days; 100 years for anything copywritten by somebody who died actively in service in either world war

India - 60 years after death

Mexico - 75 years after death

Spain - 80 years after death (between 1879-1987) 70 otherwise

United Kingdom - 70 except for music, which is 50

So pretty much universally, anything made by someone who died after 1958 is protected, and anything between 1938-1958 will depend on the country you live in.

That covers the legality surrounding simply using somebody's song with FFR. But then we get into the issue of remixes, and the permissions surrounding those.

The primary legal term with regards to remixes is "Fair Use" which governs the legal ability of someone to use copyrighted material without permission from the holder of the copyright.

Remember, Fair Use isn't a legal state, it's a legal defense. Falling under the usual definition of fair use doesn't make you immune to being sued, it just counts as one of the ways you could defend against a lawsuit. So don't think that fair use makes you immune to legal problems.

Fair use is an element of copyright law that, as of yet, is still pretty unique to the United States, but then since Berne Convention countries (pretty much everybody) respect the copyright laws of the country where the use is taking place, rather than where the work came from, and FFR is American, generally fair use will apply.

There are four aspects of your use that are considered when fair use comes up:

1/ the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes.

Basically, the less money you intend to make from using it, and the more contributory and useful your use is, the more likely it is to be ruled fair use. If you are intending to advance knowledge or the progress of the arts, you're in good shape. If your use is transformative rather than derivative, you are probably engaging in fair use.

2/ the nature of the copyrighted work

You're more likely to find a ruling of fair use if the work is non-fictional since the information involved can be arguably better off freely available for the public good. Works of fiction are harder to suggest why you should be able to supercede their copyright. It would seem to me, though I'm no lawyer, that with regards to music, this is a very minor concern compared to 1/

3/ The amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole

A 10-second sample used in a remix of a 5 minute song is much better than taking the entire song and say, adding cowbell. The less of the original you use the better.

4/ the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work

If your remix is in the same style and genre as the original, and you're planning on selling it as an album of remixes of that artist, chances are you aren't engaging in fair use, because you're likely going to damage the market for sales of the original. Using some classical music in a hardcore death metal remix? Probably okay.

So that's fair use. Once again, this is a legal defense, not a legal protection. You're ALWAYS better off contacting the artist of the work for permission than to simply remix and assume you are safe.

The effect of this though, is that when we want to use work by remixers, if we have their permission to use their remix, we have a legal defense of the assumption that their work falls under fair use, and that if anybody tried to claim legally that we can stolen their work via remix, we could direct them to the artist whose remix we used, and have them argue fair use.

I get the feeling that I've messed up some comparative numbers with regards to works produced by a certain year by people who've died by a certain other year, so if anything here seems off to you, or you want some more in depth explanation, please just let me know, and I'll do my best to fix it up.
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Old 05-8-2008, 06:31 PM   #2
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

Fantastic thread and ninja of my idea (). Completely thorough.
Great job.
EDIT: p.s. put a ! after the "you" in the title hehehehe
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Old 05-9-2008, 01:48 AM   #3
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

Very informative... This will really help me some of the works that I have in mind...
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Old 05-9-2008, 07:43 AM   #4
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

A few things, thrown together as mildly coherent rambling:

Remix, as it is used here, really usually means cover. It's not often that songs around these parts are ACTUALLY alternate mixes of songs (only one coming to mind here is Silence) or samples, and are, instead, complete rebuilds of music, using little more than the source melody, recreated in a different style or with some other unique characteristic applied.

So I guess what I'm saying here is, what's the story on covers? What about public domain covers? What if someone covers a song without making it unique in any way, we get permission from the performer of the cover, but do not get permission from the original writer? What about instances of songs being popular under the flag of a certain performer, but they had nothing to do with writing it; could someone cover the popular version of the song in an non-unique way and we could use it? How about same thing, except the cover is at least mildly different?

The 70 year thing, that's 70 years from the performer right? Because if it's 70 years after the writer, couldn't we just use a cover of it and claim it as fair use, even if the 70 years are not up for the writer? And what about old-ish instrumental music-- does that mean the only way to claim fair use on this sort of thing would be for the song to be performed in a non-standard way? What if the song is not clearly defined as being connected to a certain style? Does that mean one could play the song on any instrument in any style and claim fair use?

And what about copyright ownership not owned by the writer or performer? For instance, if Britney Spears gave us permission to use the song "...Baby One More Time", we might be morally justified to use it, but she surely doesn't own the rights, even to the particular studio recording. That would be up to the record label, right (and the writer, of course)? What if we got permission to such a song from both the performer and the producer? Does the copyright still "run out" at the 70 years past death point, and the record label is then just "borrowing" the rights until the 70 years past death runs out?

What about instances of works being the collective effort of many people? When does the copyright run out then? And if the idea is as simple as "it'll be 70 years after the last contributing member has died", then how exactly would contributions be defined? Modern popular music has so many hands in the cookie jar that it would be basically impossible to clearly identify all contributing parties. Would it then be safe to say that only those who the are clearly credited as a contributing party count?

What if, say, 9 people are credited as working on a song, from writing to final recording, and the 9 of them have been dead for 70 years. But there was actually a 10th person who was never credited and who is still alive. Would such a song as that be public domain regardless? Would it enter public domain unless the last remaining person was able to prove officially that they were involved in the production of the song in a noticeable way?

As an example, could you identify some things which are not public domain at present, but will be at some point in the future, and also tell when they would be entering the public domain and identify specifically why? Not only will this help me (and possibly others) understand this with a little more depth, but it might even give some people some nice ideas

ps I always thought works of art such as these only actually entered public domain if the copyright owner failed to publish anything using it for a certain period of time. Are the rules different for different media? Is there anything a copyright owner can do to stop his or her work from entering public domain, short of corporeal eternal life?
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Old 05-9-2008, 11:11 AM   #5
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

Many of your situations are a bit far fetched... but in terms of the copyright holder. With a lot of artists we've contacted, they've said that it is fine by them, but that we'd need to speak with the label, since the label has the copyright. In which case, we get passed along to someone else... but can be like, "So and So said they want to do this."

I'll let devonin pick apart the rest of your stuff.
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Old 05-9-2008, 08:40 PM   #6
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

You should include a section covering Creative Commons licenses.
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Old 05-21-2008, 02:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

lol, this explains everything now !!
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Old 07-10-2008, 02:58 PM   #8
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

FFR I give you premission to use any of my songs for FFR purpose's

http://www.myspace.com/noonasdf

<3
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Old 07-10-2008, 03:20 PM   #9
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

Wait. Even after reading this, i dont understand. What if a song was created anonymously, never published under a record label, and was put in a giant mix CD on bittorent with every song related to, and the entirity of Disc 2 created by 4C**n (Censored because i dont want some dumb 10 year old kid to go google it)?
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Old 07-11-2008, 09:46 PM   #10
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

Sorry to run my noobish ideas by all of you, but i need help on a certain topic.
How do i put a song on FFR? What do i need to go through to do it? I have permission from the band. How do go about all of this?

Can some one shed some light on my situation please?
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Old 07-11-2008, 10:37 PM   #11
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

this thread isn't the right place for that... you can use this other sticky! http://www.flashflashrevolution.com/...ad.php?t=72047
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Old 10-22-2008, 10:52 PM   #12
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

Let's say I want to step a song that was made by a man who died in 1937. That's PD, but is it free to just use someones performance of it?

AND DO NOT MOCK ME FOR BUMPING. This is a sticky.
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dumps abstractly represent the song with arrows

post-dumps abstractly represent the existential nihilism that the song invokes in the listener with negative space, evoking the ephemeral nature of the mind - the journey of stepmania begins in hope yet soon becomes corroded into a dialectic of futility, leaving only a sense of dread and the unlikelihood of a new synthesis
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Old 10-22-2008, 11:25 PM   #13
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

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You'd need to have permission from the performer. This is what usually happens with classical music.
Thanks.
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dumps abstractly represent the song with arrows

post-dumps abstractly represent the existential nihilism that the song invokes in the listener with negative space, evoking the ephemeral nature of the mind - the journey of stepmania begins in hope yet soon becomes corroded into a dialectic of futility, leaving only a sense of dread and the unlikelihood of a new synthesis
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Old 02-10-2009, 05:35 PM   #14
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

ok, say 'person' made a remix of one of led zepplin/linkin parks songs, and i got 'person's permission, would I have to get linkin/led's permission also if its a remix?
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Old 03-3-2009, 02:43 AM   #15
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

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Originally Posted by Bolth mannn View Post
ok, say 'person' made a remix of one of led zepplin/linkin parks songs, and i got 'person's permission, would I have to get linkin/led's permission also if its a remix?
I don't think so.
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Old 03-3-2009, 03:34 AM   #16
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bolth mannn View Post
ok, say 'person' made a remix of one of led zepplin/linkin parks songs, and i got 'person's permission, would I have to get linkin/led's permission also if its a remix?
I don't think so.
Have a look at a song called "Silence" in FFR. You think Sarah McLachlan gave permission? How about the group Delerium, who is actually credited with the original "Silence", as Ms. McLachlan was merely doing guest vocals?

Do you even think this FFMusicDJ who created the mix that appears in FFR got permission to release a remix from either Delerium as a whole or even just Sarah McLachlan?

I'd say that legally, Delerium's record label has every right to throw a C&D at FFR over the use of the remix, but yet it is here regardless. Now, they might have higher standards for avoiding copyright infringement these days, but there is certainly a standing history of use in the past.

On a personal note, I'd say that as long as the source material isn't copied "verbatim" into a remix, it's got a lot more likelihood of standing up on its own. That is to say, if it's more of a "cover", an original rendition of the song, rather than an alternate mix of existing material, it'd probably be better.
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Old 03-27-2009, 01:47 PM   #17
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

So I noticed that there were responses wanting my attention in this sticky, so I guess I should address them.

Quote:
So I guess what I'm saying here is, what's the story on covers?
You're wanting to use someone else's copywritten music for your own ends. Like making a remix, you -should- ask permission to use the music first, but if you didn't ask permission and get sued, you could in the US try to make a fair use defense, appealing to the 4 criteria above.

Quote:
What about public domain covers?
Songs which are in the public domain can be used by anybody for any reason. If you cover a song that is in the public domain, you don't gain copyright over the song, and to the best of my ability to determine, your own cover version -does- become your intellectual property, in the sense that I coudln't simply take your cover and put it on my CD and sell it for money. If someone has covered an open domain song, it works the same way as an orchestra performing an open domain classical piece. You should seek the permission of the artist whose particular performance you are using.

Quote:
What if someone covers a song without making it unique in any way, we get permission from the performer of the cover, but do not get permission from the original writer?
If someone has covered another song at all, we can assume due diligance on their part that they got permission from the original artist, and move forward with only permission from them.

Quote:
What about instances of songs being popular under the flag of a certain performer, but they had nothing to do with writing it; could someone cover the popular version of the song in an non-unique way and we could use it?
Something like All Along the Watchtower? Created by Bob Dylan, arguably substantially more famous and popular as done by Jimi Hendrix? If someone did a cover of All Along the Watchtower, like say the Dave Matthews Band did, and we wanted to use the DMB version, we would need permission from the Dave Matthews Band because, again, via the assumption that they are not themselves breaking the law, it is safe to assume they had permission and we need only DMB's permission to use their particular version.

Mind you, if you want to use All Along The Watchtower by "Some guy named Jim" it's probably -not- safe to assume he himself got permission from the original copyright holder, this really only works when using versions by actual signed artists.

Quote:
How about same thing, except the cover is at least mildly different?
Same thing.

Quote:
The 70 year thing, that's 70 years from the performer right? Because if it's 70 years after the writer, couldn't we just use a cover of it and claim it as fair use, even if the 70 years are not up for the writer? And what about old-ish instrumental music-- does that mean the only way to claim fair use on this sort of thing would be for the song to be performed in a non-standard way? What if the song is not clearly defined as being connected to a certain style? Does that mean one could play the song on any instrument in any style and claim fair use?
The holder of any copyright retains possession of that copyright for 70 years (usually) after their death. If a song is older than that, and thus open domain, you can use it all you want with no permission. If someone else still living has done so, their particular use of it (The remix they made, the cover they made, the faithful reproduction they made) becomes their own intellectual property. So if the Londom Symphony has done a performance of say, Beethoven's 8th symphony, the original Beethoven's 8th symphony is still open domain, but any particular recordings of the London Symphony's recent performance would be their property and we would want to get their permission to use their recording of it.

Once again, fair use is a defense. You use it when you impinge on someone's copyright without permission and they sue you. You say "You can't sue me, this is fair use" and have to set out to prove it to a court of law. It's not automatic.

If you played the song in a non-standard way, that would help a fair use defense.
If you played the song on non-standard instrumentation, that would help a fair use defense.

Quote:
And what about copyright ownership not owned by the writer or performer? For instance, if Britney Spears gave us permission to use the song "...Baby One More Time", we might be morally justified to use it, but she surely doesn't own the rights, even to the particular studio recording. That would be up to the record label, right (and the writer, of course)? What if we got permission to such a song from both the performer and the producer? Does the copyright still "run out" at the 70 years past death point, and the record label is then just "borrowing" the rights until the 70 years past death runs out?
I say "The artist" just in the general sense because it's easier than typing out "The holder of the copyright" every time. If I'm signed onto a label, and part of my contract is that they control the rights to my music, then they are the copyright holder, and they are the ones who can give permission. That's the reason why it is much easier to get permissions from independant bands, and smaller labels, and why when people request that we get permission from major top acts, they are usually told that it will be impossible. The artist may love the idea, but unless the actual holder of the copyright (Usually the label) gives permission, we have no permission.

If I've made a song, and contractually transferred the copyright to a record label, that copyright still expires at the usual time, 70 years after my death.

Quote:
What about instances of works being the collective effort of many people? When does the copyright run out then? And if the idea is as simple as "it'll be 70 years after the last contributing member has died", then how exactly would contributions be defined? Modern popular music has so many hands in the cookie jar that it would be basically impossible to clearly identify all contributing parties. Would it then be safe to say that only those who the are clearly credited as a contributing party count?
I'd say you could probably define a contributing member as someone who recieved royalties from performances of the work while it was under copyright. The guy who worked the sound booth on recording day "contributed" but was not a contributor since they were paid for their labour and that was it. For more modern groups, that sort of information should be on record with the record label who represented them.

Quote:
What if, say, 9 people are credited as working on a song, from writing to final recording, and the 9 of them have been dead for 70 years. But there was actually a 10th person who was never credited and who is still alive. Would such a song as that be public domain regardless? Would it enter public domain unless the last remaining person was able to prove officially that they were involved in the production of the song in a noticeable way?
Of X people are the ones explicitly listed as having held the copyright on a given thing, and all X people have been dead the correct number of years, it is open domain. Someone coming out now to claim they were the 6th beatle and demanding back royalties would have to do an awful lot by way of gathering proof to be remotely accepted as a valid holder of that copyright, but until that happened, 70 years after the last -official- beatle croaks, their stuff becomes open domain.

Quote:
ps I always thought works of art such as these only actually entered public domain if the copyright owner failed to publish anything using it for a certain period of time. Are the rules different for different media? Is there anything a copyright owner can do to stop his or her work from entering public domain, short of corporeal eternal life?
The only way a copyright owner can prevent their work from entering the public domain is to not die, or at least not stay dead for 70 years.

Quote:
I'd say that legally, Delerium's record label has every right to throw a C&D at FFR over the use of the remix, but yet it is here regardless.
FFMusicDJ has created a remixed version of a pre-existing song. Assuming (possibly incorrectly) that this version is not being used to make money, and not being set out to actively compete with Delerium in terms of any potential sales they might still make on the version, FFMusicDJ has a very strong fair use case, if Delerium tried to come after him for his version.

FFR is using his remix with, presumably his permission to use it. If Delerium came after us, we would tell them "We're not using your song, we're using FFMusicDJs song. If you would like to assert your copyright on him, we'd be glad to remove the song" but we -have- permission from the artist whose song we're using, so we're fine unless he loses the rights to his song.
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Old 03-27-2009, 02:16 PM   #18
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

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As an example, could you identify some things which are not public domain at present, but will be at some point in the future, and also tell when they would be entering the public domain and identify specifically why? Not only will this help me (and possibly others) understand this with a little more depth, but it might even give some people some nice ideas
Figured I'd give this one its own post, since there does seem to be some confusion about the way these numbers work.

Sing, Sing, Sing by Benny Goodman is a classic of the jazz/swing era, and was published in 1935. However, Benny Goodman himself did not die until 1986, so even though the -song- is already more than 70 years old, it will not enter open domain until 2056.

La Wally is an opera composed by Alfredo Catalani and was created in 1892. Alfredo Catalani died in 1893. It has been 116 years since Catalani died, so this opera is in the public domain. This exact version would be the intellectual property of the singer, and to use this exact version would require her permission.

Take This Hammerwas a prison song (And thus probably open domain from the get go) performed by the classic blues musician Lead Belly in 1942. Using the lyrics and music to Take This Hammer would already constitute open domain use, because of its nature as a prison song. Using Lead Belly's recording from 1942 would fall under copyright law. Lead Belly died in 1949, which means it has been only 60 years since his death. The rights to his version of Take This Hammer enter the public domain in 10 years, 2019.

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it might even give some people some nice ideas
You could, in fact, go to wikipedia and look up the entry for any year previous to 1939 and check the "deaths" column. Any musician or other recording artist who died previous to 1939 has their works in the open domain. It would be a method with which to find songs that could be used.
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Old 03-29-2009, 09:24 AM   #19
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

This is a lot of very useful information. Thank you, Devonin.

However, I have a question about a cappella performances.

Example: Say I performed the Star Spangled Banner without musical accompaniment. Since Francis Scott Key has been dead for over 160 years, would I be correct in saying I only need to give my permission to use it publicly?

Example 2: Say I have a friend who is talented at singing songs from a group whose members are all still alive. Would I still need to gather permission from the group for their lyrics, even if the music aspect of the song is unused?
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:20 PM   #20
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Default Re: Copyright, Permission, Public Domain and You

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Example: Say I performed the Star Spangled Banner without musical accompaniment. Since Francis Scott Key has been dead for over 160 years, would I be correct in saying I only need to give my permission to use it publicly?
You're not just using his words though, you're performing the song as well, with or without musicians. However, the actual song is even older than the poem. (The song is actually put to the tune of an 18th century men's club's anthem) so in fact, both the tune and lyrics are open domain.

If the tune were composed more recently however, but using old lyrics, you could still use the lyrics so long as you didn't use the same tune. What you'd be doing at that point wouldn't even be singing the star spangled banner, it would be putting the Scott Key poem (which is open domain) to music.

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Example 2: Say I have a friend who is talented at singing songs from a group whose members are all still alive. Would I still need to gather permission from the group for their lyrics, even if the music aspect of the song is unused?
A "song" that has lyrics would, so far as I know, be composed of three elements, each their own piece of intellectual property: The lyrics, the music and the tune. Using any of those things that are someone's protected intellectual property would require their permission.

So when Weird Al does a parody, he is creating his own lyrics, but he is still using someone's music and tune. When Richard Cheese does a parody, he is creating his own music and tune but using someone else's lyrics. In both cases, permission would need to be granted.
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