Old 05-17-2019, 02:39 AM   #141
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Default Re: fuck Georgia

internalized misogyny is a thing
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:38 AM   #142
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Default Re: fuck Georgia

Siding with sun fan here in that I don't think a typical pro-lifer lays down in bed at the end of the day and thinks "Hmm... what are some ways I can actively subjugate women tomorrow?"

Just because an action has a certain consequence (e.g. women being subjugated due to anti-abortion laws being passed) doesn't necessarily imply that that consequence is the motivation of those that do or support such actions.

In addition, the exact motivations are going to vary depending on what subgroup of people are being looked at. The motivations and exact belief system of a typical low/middle class that self-identity as a pro-lifer is going to be different than a politician in a position of power to push forward anti-abortion legislation. Similarly, there are going to be differences if you compare atheists, typical church goers, and those in a position of power in their religion.

Looking at a typical person, they are going to be socialized to think that "Murder is bad!" in general. And many people are socialized to picture abortion as the "murdering" of an unborn "baby" (the quotes are intentional). This view of abortion makes it clearly "bad" if someone takes the belief "murder is bad" unconditionally without any additional thought.

However, we "murder" bacteria, plants, pests, other animals for food, etc. Of course, we really know that these things typically "don't count" as murder. So I think that most self-proclaimed pro-lifers either (1) haven't really thought much about the "conditionally" of murder or (2) have thought about it and have reason to believe that abortions still "count" as murder. These reasons might not make sense, might be self-contradictory with their current belief system, whatever.

I think I'm rambling and I'm not sure where I'm going with this. I guess I'm trying to say that I was once young, dumb, and naive and growing up, the notion of "murder is bad" + "abortions are murder" together gave me the belief that "abortions are bad" upon first thought when I was much younger. I know this is primarily anecdotal and doesn't speak for everyone's experiences, but like sunfan, I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations.
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:39 AM   #143
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Default Re: fuck Georgia

Oof, almost forgot...fuck Georgia.
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:05 AM   #144
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I guess I'm trying to say that I was once young, dumb, and naive and growing up, the notion of "murder is bad" + "abortions are murder" together gave me the belief that "abortions are bad" upon first thought when I was much younger. I know this is primarily anecdotal and doesn't speak for everyone's experiences, but like sunfan, I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations.
This is true for young, dumb, naive people like kids who grow up in the church. But once you got older you thought critically about it and thought differently, right?

Church going type people in general want to give off this air of naive innocence, "I just have my own innocent beliefs", but a lot of the time its a facade. They get it. I think if they really believed abortion is murder, they wouldn't use such bullying tactics and instead would offer compassion. They don't want to help the women prevent pregnancy, they want to punish them after the fact. Anyone who can't or won't think critically about this issue doesn't get a pass from me just because "they really believe it" anyway but honestly, that's not as common as you guys are making it out to be. Religious people are very subtle like this on purpose
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Old 05-17-2019, 07:45 AM   #145
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Theres an execution scheduled in Alabama today that the Governor is overseeing. That's about as much as I believe that most of these people "really believe in" abortion being murder
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:09 AM   #146
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Church going type people in general want to give off this air of naive innocence, "I just have my own innocent beliefs", but a lot of the time its a facade. They get it.
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They don't want to help the women prevent pregnancy, they want to punish them after the fact.
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Anyone who can't or won't think critically about this issue doesn't get a pass from me just because "they really believe it" anyway but honestly, that's not as common as you guys are making it out to be.
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Religious people are very subtle like this on purpose
these are bigoted sentences. you shouldn't generalize most people in the world this way. a good way to reflect on how you think is if you replace religious people with a different group (e.g. race of people) and see if what you say comes off as offensive.

and i speak as an immigrant communitiy's nightmare, dissociating from culturally/religiously held beliefs are difficult, and condemning people for not doing so is not how you solve the problem

in other words, listen to your bud sunfan.
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Old 05-17-2019, 08:18 AM   #147
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wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.
well... this is the chit chat section of the forums and is not against the rules. The reason most threads are locked is because it goes completely off-topic, or posts are deleted if they are just simply insults.

when it comes to controversial stuff I think most people here can be respectful enough about a topic without acting like a complete idiot... most of the time
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:33 AM   #148
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It's worth remembering that the Alabama bill was sponsored by a woman and signed by a woman. I've got no doubts that huge factions of men "want to control women's bodies" but framing it like that on a widespread level instead of as a political power move is really counterproductive IMO
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:35 AM   #149
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these are bigoted sentences. you shouldn't generalize most people in the world this way. a good way to reflect on how you think is if you replace religious people with a different group (e.g. race of people) and see if what you say comes off as offensive.
I agree that generalizing the religous isnt gonna change minds

still tho its lame to compare religous intolerance to racism lol
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:44 AM   #150
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once again, men and women want this in equal amounts. it's a women's issue but not a men's vs women's issue. thanks for ya time
It has been a known and well understood thing for decades that people in an oppressed class will vote for their own oppression in the generally mistaken assumption that by proving themselves "one of the good ones" that the group oppressing them will make an exception for them. It is also a known and well understood thing that misogyny like homophobia is often internalized as a result of one's upbringing and even people who are voting directly against their own best interest can convince themselves of the rightness of their position even while it causes them direct harm.

The same percentage of men and women appear to support banning abortion according to Funny's poll results there. How many of those women do you think are currently married to those men? I would put money down that it is at least half of them, probably more.

Poor people frequently elect leaders whose policies directly harm poor people.

This is not new, or especially compelling as some kind of argument.

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Siding with sun fan here in that I don't think a typical pro-lifer lays down in bed at the end of the day and thinks "Hmm... what are some ways I can actively subjugate women tomorrow?"
No, they don't actively think that because they don't need to actively think that. Their entire belief system is built around it, so it happens as a consequence of their beliefs, and doesn't need to be consciously considered. This makes it worse not better.

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, I think yes, there is a link between the reasons why people oppose abortion and their faith.
Yes, it is that their faith is inherently oppressive to women.

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wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.
We've got to pay close attention to certain types of sensitive subjects, but as long as people are staying relatively civil, and engaging in good faith, there's no reason to lock the thread.

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I find it very difficult to believe that subjugating women is the primary motivation of typical people that identify as pro-life when there are much more simpler explanations.
I mean...when you look at the history of male-led sources of authority going back 2000 years, 'subjugating women' has basically been their primary goal all along. It -is- the simpler explanation.

Men in power want to keep power. Empowering women creates a whole new subset of people in competition with them. I mean...you've got people passing as intellectuals with huge followings of almost entirely men saying things like, the biggest damage done to our entire modern society was the creation of birth control, because it gave women control over their own reproduction, allowing them to take that control away from men.
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Old 05-17-2019, 09:56 AM   #151
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I agree that generalizing the religous isnt gonna change minds

still tho its lame to compare religous intolerance to racism lol
it wasn't a comparison. we all know that racism is bad so it's good example for a thought exercise.

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It has been a known and well understood thing for decades that people in an oppressed class will vote for their own oppression in the generally mistaken assumption that by proving themselves "one of the good ones" that the group oppressing them will make an exception for them. It is also a known and well understood thing that misogyny like homophobia is often internalized as a result of one's upbringing and even people who are voting directly against their own best interest can convince themselves of the rightness of their position even while it causes them direct harm.
this is something i've never heard of so if you have links to text i can look at that'd be cool

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The same percentage of men and women appear to support banning abortion according to Funny's poll results there. How many of those women do you think are currently married to those men? I would put money down that it is at least half of them, probably more.
i mean, yeah that's likely. but i don't think their thoughts were influenced by the men they're with per se, but by the environment they've always been in.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:11 AM   #152
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it wasn't a comparison. we all know that racism is bad so it's good example for a thought exercise.
This is not always, and is in fact almost never a good thought exercise. Saying "If you substitute in this other group that is not related to the subject and it 'sounds bad' that means your statement is bad" is just almost never correct.

"The Catholic Church is inherently oppressive to women, and has always taken steps to ensure the subjugation of women in the Church and therefore in wider society." is a statement that I, as somebody raised, baptized, confessed, and confirmed Catholic who had 15 years of Catholic education absolutely believe to be the case.

To say "Well if you substitute "The Catholic Church" for say..."Pick a race" you'll see how that statement magically becomes racist!" and like...okay, except the statement was about the group that actually does the thing the statement was about. Replacing it with a group that -does not do that- making the analogy fall apart is not actually a criticism of that analogy.

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this is something i've never heard of so if you have links to text i can look at that'd be cool
You need look no further than all of the coal miners and farmers that voted for Trump who are now being completely ruined by his policies. You can look at the success of candidates in poorer rural white areas who go on to just give tax breaks to the wealthy and leave the poor with cuts to all their services. It happens ALL THE TIME.


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i mean, yeah that's likely. but i don't think their thoughts were influenced by the men they're with per se, but by the environment they've always been in.
If the environment creates internalized misogyny and causes women raised in that environment to hold those positions, I think it's fair to suggest that the ~20% of people who "want to ban abortion" would be much closer to 10% of all those women hadn't been raised and then married into and then lived in an environment that taught them to hate themselves.
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Old 05-17-2019, 10:45 AM   #153
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To say "Well if you substitute "The Catholic Church" for say..."Pick a race" you'll see how that statement magically becomes racist!" and like...okay, except the statement was about the group that actually does the thing the statement was about. Replacing it with a group that -does not do that- making the analogy fall apart is not actually a criticism of that analogy.
but see, she didn't criticize the ideology; she criticized the people who believe it. and so yes, it's an offensive sweeping generalization that she can't even prove to be true (e.g. are you sure that christians want to punish women? perhaps some, but can you make that generalization?). when speaking about subjects like this, she should have been more careful with what she said. not that i'm offended (duh), but fighting bigotry with more bigotry does not make progress.

anyway i still think it's a good thought exercise :shrug:

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You need look no further than all of the coal miners and farmers that voted for Trump who are now being completely ruined by his policies. You can look at the success of candidates in poorer rural white areas who go on to just give tax breaks to the wealthy and leave the poor with cuts to all their services. It happens ALL THE TIME.
i meant it sincerely that what you were talking about was something i never heard of before, and i wanted links in order to learn more about it. it's okay if that's not something you have, but i wasn't contesting your prior point.

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If the environment creates internalized misogyny and causes women raised in that environment to hold those positions, I think it's fair to suggest that the ~20% of people who "want to ban abortion" would be much closer to 10% of all those women hadn't been raised and then married into and then lived in an environment that taught them to hate themselves.
yeah, i agree. but what you said doesn't refute what i said, if that's what you were going for.
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There comes a point where we have to ask our selves, "do we really want to deal with that, desperate as we are?"

I think we can all agree on the answer, yeah?

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Old 05-17-2019, 11:23 AM   #154
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just wanna say i stole my last point from a communist acquaintance of mine lol
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:11 PM   #155
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this is from alabama

Yes, intersectionality is a thing and power structures are complicated. But we can't say men aren't in more control, and ultimately deciding what is happening. None of the women who voted in the alabama vote voted yes.

So yes, these specific men are actually pushing this idea onto women. We can argue about theoretical blame all day but I'd rather keep that for when real people aren't having their rights fucking stomped all over

This pic says all it needs to say
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:16 PM   #156
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this is from alabama

Yes, intersectionality is a thing and power structures are complicated. But we can't say men aren't in more control, and ultimately deciding what is happening. None of the women who voted in the alabama vote voted yes.

So yes, these specific men are actually pushing this idea onto women. We can argue about theoretical blame all day but I'd rather keep that for when real people aren't having their rights fucking stomped all over

This pic says all it needs to say
There's also not any Republican women, which is interesting considering Alabama is a red state.
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Old 05-17-2019, 02:33 PM   #157
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these are bigoted sentences. you shouldn't generalize most people in the world this way. a good way to reflect on how you think is if you replace religious people with a different group (e.g. race of people) and see if what you say comes off as offensive.

and i speak as an immigrant community's nightmare, dissociating from culturally/religiously held beliefs are difficult, and condemning people for not doing so is not how you solve the problem
FG you are actually one of my favorite people on this site.

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wft is this, uh this is a forum for a rhythm flash game. That being said I am extremely surprised that admins don't censor or ban controversial forum posts. I am actually quite supportive of that.
Most of the time they do when it gets out of hand. This thread has been kept very civil, and there's been no name calling / derailment. It's been a nice heavy discussion, which tbh for a thread like this, is rare. It'd be really bad of the forum mods to lock the thread before that happens.

Also again, fuck those people
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Old 05-17-2019, 03:01 PM   #158
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FG you are actually one of my favorite people on this site.
likewise

keep doing you man
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There comes a point where we have to ask our selves, "do we really want to deal with that, desperate as we are?"

I think we can all agree on the answer, yeah?
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:01 PM   #159
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There's a bunch of things being conflated

1) Nobody is saying that all proponents of pro-life are bigots or are consciously aware of any misogynistic bias. Such bias is unconscious.

We live in a patriarchal society. Certain people benefit from this in explicit terms and are aware of this. These people, I suspect, are religious officials and elected politicians, as well as (potentially) business executives. People in power seek to remain in power; this is why progressive outlooks and revolutionary thinking are scary to them. To stay in
power, these people condition the rest of the populace to think a certain way. In other words, Bob and Jill from Alabama might not wish to subjugate women, but they do express political views that further the patriarchal objectives.

"Life is precious" is a form of conditioning that leads people to reject abortion without explicitly confronting the misogynistic undertones behind pro-life stances. It's a simple mantra that seems unpolitical even if the discussion for the past several decades has historically been rooted in political and religious agenda.

If you are pro-life you are complicit in patriarchy whether you realize it or not.

2) Women being pro-life means nothing w/r/t to this discussion because, as mentioned above, misogyny can be internalized. "Women should stop being sluts, I will never need an abortion because I am chaste." ---- she says until she accidentally gets pregnant. It is well-documented that these women will view their own unwanted pregnancy as an exceptional case that does not contradict her held beliefs (which prevents cognitive dissonance). Numerous women in the Kavanaugh case called Blasey-Ford a liar and that sexual assault as a political issue was artificially inflated by liberals. Numerous women were anti-LGBT until either they or a loved one came out. Does that make these issues any less about gender and oppression?

No, both genders are complicit in upholding patriarchal beliefs.

3) No one is denying the religious experience. Religion holds valuable function in social outreach and community engagement. We are suggesting that religion is no longer needed in a modern system of morality and that religious appeals to pro-life stances should categorically be disregarded. "Thou shalt not kill" is an axiom that emerged from the Old Testament, we can't deny that. But "thou shalt not kill" is not a moral precept because it's in the Bible, it's a moral precept because it allows society to function and increases the quality of life for everyone. You can justify this commandment outside of its function in the Bible.

An appeal to religion only works if you can demonstrate that the stance you take is worthy outside of the dogma of religion. "God says that life is precious because He created us" is not a valid argument because it holds no water outside of the dogma of Abrahamic faith.
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Old 05-17-2019, 06:08 PM   #160
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Internalized misogyny examples:

http://www.prochoiceactionnetwork-ca...QJcJFQEtegCzAs

Quote:
Many anti-choice women are convinced that their need for abortion is unique -- not like those "other" women -- even though they have abortions for the same sorts of reasons. Anti-choice women often expect special treatment from clinic staff. Some demand an abortion immediately, wanting to skip important preliminaries such as taking a history or waiting for blood test results. Frequently, anti-abortion women will refuse counseling (such women are generally turned away or referred to an outside counselor because counseling at clinics is mandatory). Some women insist on sneaking in the back door and hiding in a room away from other patients. Others refuse to sit in the waiting room with women they call "sluts" and "trash." Or if they do, they get angry when other patients in the waiting room talk or laugh, because it proves to them that women get abortions casually, for "convenience".

A few behave in a very hostile manner, such as calling clinic staff "murderers." Years ago, a clinic counselor in British Columbia told me that one of her patients went into the procedure room apparently fine with her decision to have an abortion. During the abortion, at a stage when it was too late to stop the procedure, the woman started screaming "You murderers!" and other invectives at everyone in the room.
Quote:
"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)
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