Old 03-30-2008, 02:38 PM   #61
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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* Users will find it complicated to do Rolls with a good PA
no

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# May had difficulty hitting jumps accurately.
# Rolls and Staircases may have low PA, due to inconsistent timing.
The only difference between 4 finger and spread is the crowding. It really doesn't affect any particular patterns. In fact, if you get used to 4 finger you can cheat one-handed trills.

But yeah, the only thing spread is inherently bad at is one-handed stuff, namely, runningmen (but not two-handed ones) and one-handed trills.

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Skimming the Surface

Basic Spread
Spread uses four fingers. Probably the most noob friendly style, once they get their keys remapped.
nonononono

Spread isn't really newb friendly at all (say newb not noob please) because most normal people will not even consider using more than one hand (or more than three fingers for that matter) on the arrow keys.

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Basic Four Fingers
The Four Fingered styles can consist of one or two hands. Probably the most awkward of the styles, people who use this style are dedicated. It doesn't take as much work as Two or Three fingers, but being all scrunched together can be irritating. AWKWARD
Just get rid of this completely (or turn the spread section into this). 4-finger is the exact same thing as spread and should be treated as so. The only difference between it and spread is the extra room for the fingers. Playing like that is generally either a because of stubbornness (sup Tass) or because of the extra ability to cheat trills.

Include index in the skimming the surface.

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General
You play index using your index fingers. Index is definitely the style for those who want to be average right now. You'll notice that you instantly have skill without much work. Indexers will find a roadblock very early, however, and the only way to get by it is by building up your arm, or wrist, stamina.
This may be true for those who start 1-handed but not those who start 2-handed (3+ fingers). Also include that index is the best style for PA bar none, as long as the player can master all of the patterns difficult for the style.
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:44 PM   #62
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

Why isn't double setup allowed? I naturally split the left and up arrows on left hand and the right and up arrows to right hand, rarely crossing over. Also, I've been using this style for about 4 months, and it hardly gives me godmode. If I were to use both hands on the arrow keys I could theoretically share the same button on a 3mm press keyboard to basically split jack speed in half the same way you would with double setup. It's almost identical to the aforementioned spread except you have the option of instantly switching the allocation of which arrows to which side you want, rather than moving your hand across the keyboard.

Am I prohibited from using a style I've worked on for several months, and operates completely off my own reflexes and note comprehension? Two handed styles are obviously already in use.

Last edited by Ezion; 03-30-2008 at 02:46 PM..
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Old 03-30-2008, 02:54 PM   #63
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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Originally Posted by Ezion View Post
Why isn't double setup allowed? I naturally split the left and up arrows on left hand and the right and up arrows to right hand, rarely crossing over. Also, I've been using this style for about 4 months, and it hardly gives me godmode. If I were to use both hands on the arrow keys I could theoretically share the same button on a 3mm press keyboard to basically split jack speed in half the same way you would with double setup. It's almost identical to the aforementioned spread except you have the option of instantly switching the allocation of which arrows to which side you want, rather than moving your hand across the keyboard.

Am I prohibited from using a style I've worked on for several months, and operates completely off my own reflexes and note comprehension? Two handed styles are obviously already in use.
Not sure we're all talking about the same idea here.

Double setup: Mapping keys so that any of the arrows can be pressed by more than one key at the same time. This would allow you to jack the down arrow really fast by "trilling" the two keys you have set for the down arrow, or with any arrow. An example would be using the arrow keys AND wasd (all 8 keys, or at least more than 4 of the keys) to press the four standard arrows in any game of FFR. If I wanted to cheat using double-setup with WASD, for the part of AIM anthem that just jacks the <v jump, I'd press <v AS <v AS really fast so I'd only be playing half as fast as any player in a legit playing style. Double setup does NOT refer to splitting up the four keys on both sides of the keyboard. As long as you're only pressing four keys, you're fine.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:12 PM   #64
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

This looks like it would be a useful guide to various playing styles, and having it stickied might help cut back on the number of new threads posted on this subject. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think this is meant to cover every single key and finger combination. I think it's supposed to get the most common ones, and leave out slight variations on these. For example, something like the asl; spread could be any two adjacent keys on the left hand and any two adjacent keys on the right hand. Maybe you like sdkl or as;' or even different levels like as,. or zxkl. You get the idea. Hopefully people can use the guide here to get the general idea with most of the basic styles and use whatever variation is most comfortable for them.

One style I've considered, but not really used, is using hjkl one-handed, with four fingers. In some programs like vi/vim these keys can function like the arrow keys, and I think some old rogue-like games also use them as direction keys. Someone who was already used to using these keys in that way might find remapping them for FFR use as a good way to play. I'm not though, so I've never seriously attempted it. I thought I'd mention it anyway, and no, you don't have to include this in the first post. I imagine it's pretty rare, if it's used at all.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:13 PM   #65
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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Not sure we're all talking about the same idea here.

Double setup: Mapping keys so that any of the arrows can be pressed by more than one key at the same time. This would allow you to jack the down arrow really fast by "trilling" the two keys you have set for the down arrow, or with any arrow. An example would be using the arrow keys AND wasd (all 8 keys, or at least more than 4 of the keys) to press the four standard arrows in any game of FFR. If I wanted to cheat using double-setup with WASD, for the part of AIM anthem that just jacks the <v jump, I'd press <v AS <v AS really fast so I'd only be playing half as fast as any player in a legit playing style. Double setup does NOT refer to splitting up the four keys on both sides of the keyboard. As long as you're only pressing four keys, you're fine.
We are talking about the same thing.
Sure, you can split jacks apart into 'half as fast', but it still requires the same number of keypresses at the correct times to get perfect. As I mentioned before; you could also achieve this jack splitting with a 4 button setup with a large key and a very shallow keypress.

If that's the only counter-argument for it, then it would seem that we need jacks that are twice as fast, and an engine to handle it.

Also, upon a bit more thought, assuming that it makes ffr 'too easy' means that you're willing to stop pushing the envelope to make harder songs. I want to a see a song that's impossible to do unless you're doublebinding, that would be a whole new level of 'skill', per se.

The fundamental reason I object to it not being considered a legitimate style is because everyone has two hands. Yes, it's that simple. Everyone has two hands, therefore we should all be able to achieve the same level of 'skill', and it's not fair to say that fully using two hands makes someone 'too skilled'. I hardly consider myself the best ffr/stepmania player out there either, so a double bind isn't your one step setup for godliness.

Last edited by Ezion; 03-30-2008 at 03:17 PM.. Reason: adding paragraph
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:18 PM   #66
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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Originally Posted by Ezion View Post
Also, upon a bit more thought, assuming that it makes ffr 'too easy' means that you're willing to stop pushing the envelope to make harder songs. I want to a see a song that's impossible to do unless you're doublebinding, that would be a whole new level of 'skill', per se.
Vertex BETA vRofl. Kthanks bai.

Although not everyone has access to it. Just play by the rules, jacks are one hand, not two. That way no modifying anything. The new files are hard enough. Eclipse, rawr.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:19 PM   #67
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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Originally Posted by Ezion View Post
We are talking about the same thing.
Sure, you can split jacks apart into 'half as fast', but it still requires the same number of keypresses at the correct times to get perfect. As I mentioned before; you could also achieve this jack splitting with a 4 button setup with a large key and a very shallow keypress.

If that's the only counter-argument for it, then it would seem that we need jacks that are twice as fast, and an engine to handle it.

Also, upon a bit more thought, assuming that it makes ffr 'too easy' means that you're willing to stop pushing the envelope to make harder songs. I want to a see a song that's impossible to do unless you're doublebinding, that would be a whole new level of 'skill', per se.

The fundamental reason I object to it not being considered a legitimate style is because everyone has two hands. Yes, it's that simple. Everyone has two hands, therefore we should all be able to achieve the same level of 'skill', and it's not fair to say that fully using two hands makes someone 'too skilled'. I hardly consider myself the best ffr/stepmania player out there either, so a double bind isn't your one step setup for godliness.
Double Setup = Cheating.

Also, it's worth mentionting that in reality while these are common to some extent. There are many people who use different setups and/or key variations that aren't mentioned there.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:23 PM   #68
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

The thing is, the whole point of jacks are to "jack" your hand up and down like a jackhammer, or at least your finger(s). Double-setup is like taking your bike to a marathon. Sure it's the same distance (same number of keypresses in a given time), but it gives you a big advantage.

Jacks that are twice as fast? We already have one-framers without double-setup. Are you saying we need to double FFR's frame display rate?

You don't need to make songs that are impossible without double-setup to add a whole new level of skill. The whole new level of skill is doing well on the most difficult songs we have without using double-setup.

And a shallow keypress doesn't quite get the same effect. With a shallower keypress, sure, you don't have to press the key as far down, but your finger still needs to reverse directions just as fast, regardless of keypress.

A song that requires double-setup just to pass is just plain retarded IMO. Sure it can be fun and amusing, but it'd usually require overstepping and stupid amounts of jacks. Example: Vertex Beta vROFL
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:28 PM   #69
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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The fundamental reason I object to it not being considered a legitimate style is because everyone has two hands. Yes, it's that simple. Everyone has two hands, therefore we should all be able to achieve the same level of 'skill', and it's not fair to say that fully using two hands makes someone 'too skilled'. I hardly consider myself the best ffr/stepmania player out there either, so a double bind isn't your one step setup for godliness.
The fundamental reason I object to doping not being considered a legitimate practice is because every athlete has access to these drugs. Yes, it's that simple. Everyone can have them, therefore athletes should be able to achieve the same level of 'skill', and it's not fair to say that fully doping yourself makes someone 'too skilled'. I hardly consider myself the best athlete out there either, so increasing your physical functions via drugs isn't your one way ticket to godliness.

Doping is good.
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:38 PM   #70
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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And a shallow keypress doesn't quite get the same effect. With a shallower keypress, sure, you don't have to press the key as far down, but your finger still needs to reverse directions just as fast, regardless of keypress.
My point here was that you could still cut jack speed in half without double binding, depending on your keyboard setup. A touch keyboard would be ideal for this; bind your down arrow to a large button (such as the enter) and you could just spam press it with multiple, achieving the same effect. Timing between multiple hands is still a pain if you're trying to achieve perfects, and that jack scenario is one of the few advantages.

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You don't need to make songs that are impossible without double-setup to add a whole new level of skill. The whole new level of skill is doing well on the most difficult songs we have without using double-setup.
So we're forcefully limiting ourselves to keep it challenging? Wouldn't it be better to play with everything you've got and still have it challenging?

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Are you saying we need to double FFR's frame display rate?
Quite possibly.

I think that this percieved advantage of the double setup is being blown up a bit too much; not often do I find myself having the processing cycles to decide to split a jack into two fingers, unless it's ridiculously long. If we're aiming to completely balance all styles, then 1) What's the point of having different styles, and 2) spread players already have an advantage over single handed players, in fatigue if nothing else, no?


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The fundamental reason I object to doping not being considered a legitimate practice is because every athlete has access to these drugs. Yes, it's that simple. Everyone can have them, therefore athletes should be able to achieve the same level of 'skill', and it's not fair to say that fully doping yourself makes someone 'too skilled'. I hardly consider myself the best athlete out there either, so increasing your physical functions via drugs isn't your one way ticket to godliness.

Doping is good.
The reason this analogy falls apart is because every human being is born with two hands, while not every human being is born with dope. The better ones are using what they were given more efficiently.

Last edited by Ezion; 03-30-2008 at 03:41 PM..
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Old 03-30-2008, 03:39 PM   #71
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

This whole page is tl;dr.

P.S. I cant do fast rolls on index, I always mess up

Well i can do like <v^> rolls in that order, but i cant do >^v< in that order.
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:05 PM   #72
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

Double setup is legal as long as you never use multiple fingers on the same arrow for the same pattern. It's when you cheat trills and jacks that it becomes cheating, because jacks are intended to be a one finger pattern; ergo, using more than one finger is cheating.
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:07 PM   #73
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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The reason this analogy falls apart is because every human being is born with two hands, while not every human being is born with dope. The better ones are using what they were given more efficiently.
Every human is born with hormones such as EPO (hope it's called that in English) and stuff like it. They're what help produce red blood cells which transport the oxygen in the body. Doping is just putting a synthetic EPO in your body that produces more blood cells and thus more oxygen is transported, which then helps you endure more.

Double setup helps you jack faster. Doping helps the body just as well as double setup helps to jack.
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:10 PM   #74
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

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Originally Posted by Ezion View Post
My point here was that you could still cut jack speed in half without double binding, depending on your keyboard setup. A touch keyboard would be ideal for this; bind your down arrow to a large button (such as the enter) and you could just spam press it with multiple, achieving the same effect. Timing between multiple hands is still a pain if you're trying to achieve perfects, and that jack scenario is one of the few advantages.
As far as I know, this is not against the rules, but double-setup is. We are not discussing different keyboards and keypress depths, I had the idea we were discussing double-setup.


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Wouldn't it be better to play with everything you've got and still have it challenging?
By "everything you've got" it's implied that double-setup is included, which is cheating. Well, so shouldn't we all use cheats on every computer game and still have it challenging? Even challenging enough so that we can't beat it without cheats?

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I think that this percieved advantage of the double setup
Perceived? Did I hear you right? I think it's a lot more than just perceived...

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Originally Posted by Ezion View Post
...[the advantage double-setup] is being blown up a bit too much; not often do I find myself having the processing cycles to decide to split a jack into two fingers, unless it's ridiculously long.
The advantage of hacking is being blown up a bit too much; not often do I find myself having the time/guts/resources to decide to hack a high score on a song, unless it's ridiculously hard.

...Hmmm, I think I've heard that line of thinking before. Not calling you a hacker in any way though, thought I should make that clear.

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If we're aiming to completely balance all styles, then
WHOA WHOA WHOA... stop there. Who told you anybody was aiming to completely balance all styles? That is not what we were talking about, or I am blind.

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1) What's the point of having different styles,
Personal preference, comfort, enjoyment. What else?

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Originally Posted by Ezion View Post
and 2) spread players already have an advantage over single handed players, in fatigue if nothing else, no?
The difference here is that double-setup is cheating and spread is not cheating.


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The reason this analogy falls apart is because every human being is born with two hands, while not every human being is born with dope. The better ones are using what they were given more efficiently.
By your logic: Just as human beings are not born with dope, FFR does not come shipped with key remappers that allow you to use double-setup.

I am done arguing this, thank you.
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Old 03-30-2008, 04:18 PM   #75
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Double setup is legal as long as you never use multiple fingers on the same arrow for the same pattern. It's when you cheat trills and jacks that it becomes cheating, because jacks are intended to be a one finger pattern; ergo, using more than one finger is cheating.
I can live with that, as I never have the time or need to 'cheat' jacks. I still disagree that double binding is cheating, but it seems argued out at this point, so we'll let it die.
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:07 PM   #76
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

i play with a mix of index and 2 haned/3 fingered. my resting position before it starts is indexes on left and right arrows. then i use my right hand index and middle finger on up, right and down arrows. i sometimes use my left index on the up and down arrows and rarely use my left middle finger.
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:10 PM   #77
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

I'm getting lost in my own thread. x.x
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Old 03-30-2008, 05:38 PM   #78
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

Might be time for a cleansing of unnecessary stuff soon.
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Old 03-30-2008, 06:21 PM   #79
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

con for one hand/three fingers: thumb tends to slip.
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Old 03-30-2008, 06:38 PM   #80
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Default Re: FFR Playing Style and Hand Position Guide

How does your thumb slip? I don't even have my thumb on the keyboard.
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