6th Official FFR Tournament - Is over, Congrats to all our winners!

[One Winged Angel]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

you, queef, and plan

[Wineandbread]

If the tournament organizers really didn't want sandbagging to happen they would make the tournament 1 divisional, such that only D6 players would even have a shot at the prizes. They wouldn't have to go through all this placement and sandbagging trouble if they didn't feel the need to reward lower-skill players. I can understand the divisions because they genuinely want to attract people into playing the game just a tad more seriously, to let players improve, and letting everyone compete and be rewarded for the time they put into the game. Why else would you feel compelled to introduce low-skill competition? (by low-skill, I refer to everyone not in D6)

FFR's tourney is designed with a very differing condition of competition compared to most tournaments for rhythm games, and games in general.. We can play the songs as many times as we like instead of going head to head live. It's a VERY forgiving system, and I imagine it has something to do with the fact that it's combo-based scoring. But even looking at osu! World Cup taking place currently, which is also combo scored (worse actually: exponential scaling combo-based scoring), they still play their games live (this comparison has some issues, but I'll leave it). I don't think I could name very many other tournaments (any off the top of my head right now for that matter) that have this kind of system that lets you continuously play and score your best. So don't let the rewards fool you: it's casual tournament gaming to a heavy degree.

Concerning sandbaggers, there's easily incentive to stay in the lower divisions because of the way the prize structure is set up, and also just because of competitive nature in general, like ironic mentioned. But you can't tell with absolute certainty the difference between a sandbagger and a person who is improving from an online standpoint, barring the extremely obvious. There isn't a clearcut point where you can objectively move someone up a division either- like hi19 said, it's punishing to move people around in divisions for those people who are midway (top of their division, but can't even place in the division above).

That being said, there's no reason why players shouldn't be able to complain, regardless of whether they are rational or not, because this is a system that you chose to endorse. You signed up for the whole package.


tl;dr Division tournament structure is inherently flawed for a game like FFR

$0.02

[Findarian]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

I've tried bolding instead and it seems to get the same reaction lol. Half the time I'm so frigging tired I don't even think about how I can word things to make them sound nice. I think people forget I do have an 8 month old that runs me pretty ragged lol.

Or just don't bold anything and there won't be much of a negative reaction to it. Maybe try getting your idea across in multiple posts or put spaces every 2-3 sentences so that people aren't overwhelmed by a block of text.

That's what I do anyways. Hasn't been bad for me so far I think O.o

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by Zakvvv666

After a lot of hard work and very few actual plays being finished, I pull off 3g by luck because I did the first rolls nearly perfect for the first time. But this is one example of how I get my best scores.

See what you can do when you push yourself? That took you 2 hours, I've been trying since it came out and can't beat my 6/0/0/6. Actually have gotten worse at the song now. -_-

[Findarian]

Originally Posted by Ninty64

I think you're starting to care too much. You gotta go get high or something.

I don't see any reason to ask them to do a lot more work for us when they're already doing so much.

Edit: "I am going to make it past this round because I'm a fierce competitor."
Lol sorry, I didn't mean to make it sound like you were going to get eliminated

First off.. no

second off.. I'd rather have it known who might be bumped up or not based on some scores that I can't see as a non-vet. I still stand by if someone works to get to the top of their division, they shouldn't be put into the higher division. Even if they were an outlier to begin with.. (which exceptions like sandbaggers)

[iironiic]

Originally Posted by Wineandbread

tl;dr Division tournament structure is inherently flawed for a game like FFR

$0.02

kjwkjw and I had a very long conversation about this and we support this as well. Well said Wineandbread.

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by iironiic

Do you guys know why this unnecessary "FFRDrama" exists? The reason being is that it is human nature to have this competitive aspect. This fact is why sandbaggers exist, why people are complaining, and why amateurs don't post scores on the brag board anymore. It's simply because we're all human beings who have this tendency to just strive to be the best out of others by varying means via cheating, remaining misplaced, etc.

I want most of you to all take a step back for a minute and evaluate what you are really competing for. All of you guys are driven to compete for overrated prizes that are probably going to be very insignificant in your life and many of you are making a big deal out of a game that is intentionally made to be for fun. If you think fun is winning something, then what I'm going to say is not convincing so feel free to ignore me. If not, do you think those prizes are really worth it?

Most of you guys are jaded by the glory of the token because it's a sign of dedication (which I completely understand), but do you really think it's worth unlocking a bunch of pixels on your profile and a terrible file that has no significant meaning in your life through all of that work? Think about that.

This is a perfectly fine viewpoint. And I've considered it... on the other hand, by the very nature of calling this a tournament, you are inviting the competitive aspect to come to the fore. And part of any competition is the assumption of a consistent playing field. People went into this tournament with a set group of divisions. They knew who they would be competing against, even if not everyone might have agreed with the placements. And to change that in the middle of the competition destroys a lot of the incentive behind competing- why bother to excel if all that gets you is arbitrarily moved to where you're bound to lose?

It's the same reason people would probably make a huge deal if a sports team had its division changed mid-season, or if a professional tournament just decided to un-seed one of its competitors completely against the structure they usually use... nobody likes to feel punished for improving.
I'd honestly rather live with having the divisions wrong and vow to do better next time than change everyone's expectations mid-way through. And so, because of what you're saying in your post (the prizes are honestly not worth getting so worked up over) I'd say that we might as well live with the incorrect divisions we started with. To me, that's better than changing the nature of the tournament entirely mid-way though and destroying part of what makes competing fun.


I'm sure the response to this is to pick apart every word I've said and take it out of context, but I am mostly addressing the precedent this sets. What's the point of competition if you can't be sure you won't be punished for improving?

Originally Posted by Wineandbread

tl;dr Division tournament structure is inherently flawed for a game like FFR

$0.02

Also this.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by Findarian

First off.. no

second off.. I'd rather have it known who might be bumped up or not based on some scores that I can't see as a non-vet. I still stand by if someone works to get to the top of their division, they shouldn't be put into the higher division. Even if they were an outlier to begin with.. (which exceptions like sandbaggers)

And how do we prove the difference between a skill boost and a sandbagger? A sandbagger can easily just say they've worked at it too.

Originally Posted by iironiic

kjwkjw and I had a very long conversation about this and we support this as well. Well said Wineandbread.

At the start of this I said something about how we could just make the official a 1 division tournament, everyone freaked. Which I expected because then that only leaves what maybe like 10 people that could actually fight it out for prizes?

[Ninty64]

Originally Posted by Findarian

First off.. no

second off.. I'd rather have it known who might be bumped up or not based on some scores that I can't see as a non-vet. I still stand by if someone works to get to the top of their division, they shouldn't be put into the higher division. Even if they were an outlier to begin with.. (which exceptions like sandbaggers)

lol, lighten up XD (at the first part I mean)

I agree with you that it would be nice to know that, but it's futile. It may 'solve' the problem of getting bumped up. But it'll create a crapload of new problems. So what's the point in spending time doing it? Especially since they're volunteers. It's not like anyone on this site gets paid. And it's not like you're paying for any services.

It's FREEEE <3

[hi19hi19]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

And how do we prove the difference between a skill boost and a sandbagger? A sandbagger can easily just say they've worked at it too.

You can't, largely due to the anonymity of the internet.
So you might as well just accept that the tournament may have these kinds of flaws and move on from there. Better than changing the expectations halfway through, in my opinion.

[xThai]

who knew moving a person up one division would cause such a commotion... geez lol.

[Zakvvv666]

If me being a sandbagger is somehow considered, check my IP, very few FFR players in my area probably and I also stream myself playing FFR for like 3+ hours daily in tinychat, just saying, I'm sure I'm stuck in D4 because of that good run, but I believe it was a good amount of luck as well as my better scores.

[xXAll-ProXx]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

See what you can do when you push yourself? That took you 2 hours, I've been trying since it came out and can't beat my 6/0/0/6. Actually have gotten worse at the song now. -_-

LOL this happens to you too??, I get my best score on my first couple of tries then my scores keep getting worse and worse after that no matter how long I play the song for.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by Wineandbread

That being said, there's no reason why players shouldn't be able to complain, regardless of whether they are rational or not, because this is a system that you chose to endorse. You signed up for the whole package.

Players also signed up knowing there was the possibility of being moved. It's clearly written in the OP with the rules. I know there's no way of it being perfect but there's also no reason for it to be this out of hand over someone being moved up. He knew that it was probably coming and even said he wouldn't complain if he were moved up. Yet here we are.

Originally Posted by Zakvvv666

If me being a sandbagger is somehow considered, check my IP, very few FFR players in my area probably and I also stream myself playing FFR for like 3+ hours daily in tinychat, just saying, I'm sure I'm stuck in D4 because of that good run, but I believe it was a good amount of luck as well as my better scores.

sandbagging has nothing to do with someone else playing on your account and I never said you were one I'm just saying it's hard to prove one way or the other. You were a player that was brought up from the very start of the tournament by other players. It's not one good run that put you in D4 and I'm not going to keep repeating myself because it's obviously getting nowhere. You managed to pull a 3 good score on this round's song in D4 within 2 hours, there are people that have been in D4 this whole time that have been playing like crazy since it came out and can't beat your score. I can see all the plays backend in the dashboard.

Originally Posted by xXAll-ProXx

LOL this happens to you too??, I get my best score on my first couple of tries then my scores keep getting worse and worse after that no matter how long I play the song for.

Haha yea, the more I whore the worse I get at a song. I've been whoring finder like crazy I don't even know how many botched restart runs AJ deleted off the camera cause he's been trying to catch it on vid. Silly cause I'm usually really good at rolls but for some reason just can't nail this song. I think it may be the speed. There's a good chance I'm not moving on but I'll try my best and just see what happens.

[Findarian]

Originally Posted by hi19hi19

This is a perfectly fine viewpoint. And I've considered it... on the other hand, by the very nature of calling this a tournament, you are inviting the competitive aspect to come to the fore. And part of any competition is the assumption of a consistent playing field. People went into this tournament with a set group of divisions. They knew who they would be competing against, even if not everyone might have agreed with the placements. And to change that in the middle of the competition destroys a lot of the incentive behind competing- why bother to excel if all that gets you is arbitrarily moved to where you're bound to lose?

It's the same reason people would probably make a huge deal if a sports team had its division changed mid-season, or if a professional tournament just decided to un-seed one of its competitors completely against the structure they usually use... nobody likes to feel punished for improving.
I'd honestly rather live with having the divisions wrong and vow to do better next time than change everyone's expectations mid-way through. And so, because of what you're saying in your post (the prizes are honestly not worth getting so worked up over) I'd say that we might as well live with the incorrect divisions we started with. To me, that's better than changing the nature of the tournament entirely mid-way though and destroying part of what makes competing fun.


I'm sure the response to this is to pick apart every word I've said and take it out of context, but I am mostly addressing the precedent this sets. What's the point of competition if you can't be sure you won't be punished for improving?


Also this.

I'm really not sure why people aren't getting it lol

Anyways.. only exception is sandbaggers.. if it's obvious just kick them from tourney right? =)

[DarknessXoXLight]

Originally Posted by xXAll-ProXx

LOL this happens to you too??, I get my best score on my first couple of tries then my scores keep getting worse and worse after that no matter how long I play the song for.

This happens to me too, it's why I haven't played the song in a while. I have to give it like 2 days for it to seem new to me before I can get something decent again. /o/

[DossarLX ODI]

All-Pro, it happens to me on RATO too. I remember the past few weeks I whored it and managed to get 23-1-0-1 and 26-0-0-3 and then consistent 20's with misses (like my 23-0-2-3) then split like a motherfucker

Of course after all that whoring and failure to get past my hated messy current registered score I was like

[Elite Ninja]

Originally Posted by xXAll-ProXx

LOL this happens to you too??, I get my best score on my first couple of tries then my scores keep getting worse and worse after that no matter how long I play the song for.

This definetly happens to me A LOT. Not all the time but A LOT. Only way I find around it is not playing the song for a long time which doesn't work in touraments haha.

[Findarian]

Originally Posted by psychoangel691

And how do we prove the difference between a skill boost and a sandbagger? A sandbagger can easily just say they've worked at it too.



At the start of this I said something about how we could just make the official a 1 division tournament, everyone freaked. Which I expected because then that only leaves what maybe like 10 people that could actually fight it out for prizes?

-Well then.. Ways to catch sandbaggers - play little and improve a lot
-People don't know them/haven't seen them before
-Very inconsistant scores - getting 50-32-0-0, 40-29-0-0 and 6-0-0-0 on the same file in the same day as an example
-Generally keep watch like you have been doing
-If someone posts a high score because they're proud of it, they're probably not a sandbagger

More suggestions are welcome i'm sure, but that's all I can think of atm

[Zakvvv666]

3 goods may be the best I get, for elegante I got the BF in only one day then couldn't beat that no matter how many times I tried, I literally hit restart at least 400 times playing that file.

Also, love the song, but I hate that the file was stepped so well, other than that though good job Bmah, just those jumps killed me haha.