Averages = Lifebar penalty

[andy-o24]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

the benefit of this adjustment is that it makes passes MEANINGFUL, because they currently aren't.

We've already established that FC's aren't meaningful because of the raw scoring change.
You're establishing that passes aren't meaningful because averages don't have a life penalty and that makes passing too easy.

Is boiling FFR down to a single goal oriented game really what we want?

-o24

[Kraezymann]

I think he's establishing that various songs on FFR are too easy to mash, and that the "Averages as a penalty" is simply a possible solution.

Having a secondary way to complete a song, like the "hard mode" that has been suggested also provides more than the single goal of AAA'ing the song. With only one chart per song there isn't much more than the one goal of AAA'ing it, no?

[_Zenith_]

I never understood the need to mash at all. If you're mashing a song, wouldn't that mean you haven't gathered enough skill to actually play the patterns the correct way but instead your brain goes to a "let me hit every key I can because I won't fail because the Perfect life regen outweighs the mashing speed of boo'ing patterns". It's honestly a misinterpretation of how to play the game in general.

[Rapta]

Originally Posted by _Zenith_

I never understood the need to mash at all. If you're mashing a song, wouldn't that mean you haven't gathered enough skill to actually play the patterns the correct way but instead your brain goes to a "let me hit every key I can because I won't fail because the Perfect life regen outweighs the mashing speed of boo'ing patterns". It's honestly a misinterpretation of how to play the game in general.

I honestly don't feel like writing "all the reasons to mash" right now. Let me finish my mp with Mourning and I will explain my reasons.

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Rapta

I said what I said earlier because I did not like the idea proposed
(making averages a life bar penalty) but I didn't want to outwardly
say it like that so I explained my feelings on the way averages currently are.

I read an idea (averages being neutral) which sounded better than averages
being a penalty, so I thought "if this were to be changed, I would rather they be neutral".

I like passes being the way they are because I often mash through extremely hard Mania engine songs.
It is the predominant way I play to get better these days. I believe making averages a penalty would ruin that for me.
Just my opinion on \thread

The bolded section is the wrong way to go about improving (even on Mania songs). On FFR you have the beautiful ability to Isolate specific sections of any given chart, and doing so would benefit you more than just mashing the patterns and not learning them/reading them.

IMO Mashing would help you build up stamina in your forearms (the burning sensation you feel) which Arch0wl (or someone else) mentioned in an earlier thread some time ago.

[Rapta]

Reasons to mash:

1. Isolating patterns and playing them over and over again is the one thing that gets me mind blocked (example being System Doctor, I tried isolating the part I had trouble on and I never got it even after many recorded tries.)
Also, usually parts that need isolating are at the end of songs, and after playing through the whole song (at least in difficult songs) your arms are weathered and don't feel the same as when only playing the isolation (they are more tired), so even if you do hit the isolation a couple of times (in my case, Dissapearance of Miku) by the time you get to the part you isolated and AAAd in isolation, your arms feel different.

2. When I say I mash to get better currently, I didn't mean I mash every song, I only mash the ones I cannot come close to doing at the moment. When I mash, I look at the screen the whole time and analyze the notes, and after doing that for about a week, intermediate parts in hard songs (like conspiracy of silence) become easier to do.

3. After mashing, my fingers feel like they are able to move faster (hence why I always warm up with incredibly hard songs). "If you're mashing a song, wouldn't that mean you haven't gathered enough skill to actually play the patterns the correct way but instead your brain goes to a "let me hit every key I can because I won't fail " " My brain doesn't go like that. When I mash the hard parts, I think -I need to mash hard to tire myself- and when I get to intermediate parts, my brain thinks -mash with less intensity and focus on what the patterns look like-. Though I don't really think it to where I can hear myself think, more like I just.. do it. Edit: I don't focus on the hardest patterns in some songs, only the intermediates, because I'm no where near being able to hit those hard parts (like the insanely fast parts of torero)

4. Mashing to gain more skill is not a misinterpretation if the ultimate goal is to be able to become better at the game when not mashing.

I may come edit this after more mp

Edit: I will edit this throughout mp cus why not

Edit: Mashing can help you get better if you do it "right" in a way. How I look at it is basically training my body like a weight trainer would for a competition, but for FFR.. Also I think you have to be at a certain skill before mashing to get better to actually get better (maybe D5 and up) so to get better by mashing may only be helpful to people who are very used to reading patterns and are committed to the physical fatigue after mashing the hardest of songs.

Edit: As I said, the way I look at it is training my body for FFR. That doesn't mean I just mash (or for an analogy I don't just do squats to strengthen my legs) I also do rates when I am at my peak to help maintain and practice the stamina and reading ability gained from mashing. Edit: Even though mashing is not the only way to get better, it's still a part of how I do.

Edit: This may seem a little off topic, but soon after I got to D7, magnuses (a d6 player) came to me asking for advice on how to get better. At the time I couldn't offer much advice, but I did invite him to "train" with me, and we ended up doing that for a while. He said personally that he felt like he improved more after our "training sessions". Training sessions were basically mashing hard songs and playing a few "easy" hard songs, along with a few tips on how I train solo (with rates).

Edit: I don't think I missed anything.

[_Zenith_]

Originally Posted by Rapta

Reasons to mash:

1. Isolating patterns and playing them over and over again is the one thing that gets me mind blocked (example being System Doctor, I tried isolating the part I had trouble on and I never got it even after many recorded tries.)
Also, usually parts that need isolating are at the end of songs, and after playing through the whole song (at least in difficult songs) your arms are weathered and don't feel the same as when only playing the isolation (they are more tired), so even if you do hit the isolation a couple of times (in my case, Dissapearance of Miku) by the time you get to the part you isolated and AAAd in isolation, your arms feel different.

2. When I say I mash to get better currently, I didn't mean I mash every song, I only mash the ones I cannot come close to doing at the moment. When I mash, I look at the screen the whole time and analyze the notes, and after doing that for about a week, intermediate parts in hard songs (like conspiracy of silence) become easier to do.

3. After mashing, my fingers feel like they are able to move faster (hence why I always warm up with incredibly hard songs). "If you're mashing a song, wouldn't that mean you haven't gathered enough skill to actually play the patterns the correct way but instead your brain goes to a "let me hit every key I can because I won't fail " " My brain doesn't go like that. When I mash the hard parts, I think -I need to mash hard to tire myself- and when I get to intermediate parts, my brain thinks -mash with less intensity and focus on what the patterns look like-. Thought I don't really think it to where I can hear myself think, more like I do it.

4. Mashing to gain more skill is not a misinterpretation if the ultimate goal is to be able to become better at the game when not mashing.

I may come edit this after more mp

Edit: I will edit this throughout mp cus why not

Edit: Mashing can help you get better if you do it "right" in a way. How I look at it is basically training my body like a weight trainer would for a competition, but for FFR.. Also I think you have to be at a certain skill before mashing to get better to actually get better (maybe D5 and up) so to get better by mashing may only be helpful to people who are very used to reading patterns and are committed to the physical fatigue after mashing the hardest of songs.

Edit: As I said, the way I look at it is training my body for FFR. That doesn't mean I just mash (or for an analogy I don't just do squats to strengthen my legs) I also do rates when I am at my peak to help maintain and practice the stamina and reading ability gained from mashing.

1) That is somewhat true, but your muscle memory should take precedence over that awkward feeling of playing a certain section on iso or in an real run.

2) You might as well use the song preview in the level ranks to pause at what a pattern looks like (cannot be done on Mania so I agree halfheartedly there). You could also take a screenshot of the specific pattern and read it and muscle memory your fingers into hitting at least the right keys at the time to get a feel for the pattern.

3) Your explanation makes no sense whatsoever. You are literally saying you mash very difficult patterns because you do not have the stamina to do them in a real run without burning your stamina before the end of the song. You are also saying that on lesser difficult patterns, you mash slightly and moreso read the pattern itself. You might as well just play the damn pattern and not mash.

4) Your misinterpreting the actual trying to hit patterns. If you awkwardly mash (presumably jumptrill 12 - 34 contantly), then you are missing the timing information and the accuracy lessons in actually playing the game. To a lesser extent you are right but there is still no real beneficial purpose of mashing, excluding the ones that were previous mentioned like stamina training.

EDIT2: There is no right way to mash period. If you mean that you are presumably mashing the actual patterns because you can read the arrows and not actually hitting them by getting either Perfects Goods or Averages, then you are missing out on the physical learning part of hitting a pattern correctly.

I feel this is more an issue of "Does mashing just create more work for the same results in lesser time?".

[rushyrulz]

justified mashing lol.

The only somewhat acceptable reason is to warm up. I thought that a D7 player claiming their arms are weathered after playing up til the ending of System Doctor was funny, considering that file is an absolute joke excluding the end.

[Rapta]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

justified mashing lol.

The only somewhat acceptable reason is to warm up. I thought that a D7 player claiming their arms are weathered after playing up til the ending of System Doctor was funny, considering that file is an absolute joke excluding the end.

System doctor doesn't phase me much until the end, yes. I didn't say (or intend to say) my hands were weathered on System Doctor specifically, my hands DO get weathered on Disappearnace of Miku which is what I meant. System doctor has that one stupid 32nd pattern repeated 4 times I can never do.

From Zenith: "I feel this is more an issue of "Does mashing just create more work for the same results in lesser time?"."
From personal experience, I started mashing to get better a bit after the 9th official. People have said I skill gained incredibly fast to go from D5 to D7. That is presumably why.

"on lesser difficult patterns, you mash slightly and moreso read the pattern itself. You might as well just play the damn pattern and not mash." Just because it is a lesser difficult pattern doesn't mean it can be done, nor does the fact that it is easier than the harder parts mean that just because you can read it better, you should try it instead of mashing every time. If there is a part that can be done, surely do it but if you cannot do it in the slightest, don't try to do it yet, just mash until you find yourself to be able to do it. I hope I stated that correctly.

[Arch0wl]

@Rapta: if you want to mash through songs we're currently discussing the idea of a "pro pass" feature.

I personally think we'd be better off if the game had a harder lifebar to begin with, but if that's too controversial, an option to just enable a harder lifebar pass as an intermediate between passing and FCing would be great.

Originally Posted by ca25nada

Also, since someone mentioned IIDX, these are the recovery/drain values for each note.

Values are for:
PGreat/Great/Good/Bad/Poor/mashPoor(see them as boos in FFR) respectively.
You can see the timing windows here: https://zenius-i-vanisher.com/v5.2/v...?threadid=5233

HARD Drain is reduced by half when the gauge is below 30%, recovery is still the same.
+0.16 / +0.16 / 0.00 / -5.00 / -9.00 / -9.00
EXHARD Drain remains the same even when below 30%
+0.16 / +0.16 / 0.00 / -10.00 / -18.00 / -18.00
Dan Gauge Drain is reduced by half when the gauge is below 30%, recovery is still the same.
+0.16 / +0.16 / +0.04 / -1.50 / -2.50 / -1.50

Dude, I love you. I've never seen that data before but I've wanted it forever.

Do you have the data for Pop'n? That game's lifebar is ridiculous.

[Arch0wl]

Originally Posted by andy-o24

We've already established that FC's aren't meaningful because of the raw scoring change.

wait, what? FC's are absolutely meaningful goals to strive for, even with the scoring change.

meaningfulness, in terms of goals, is inversely related to achievability. if everyone can do x, then it's not that meaningful of an accomplishment; if you're the only person in the world who can do x, it's definitely meaningful; if you're the only person who can do x and there is an ocean of competition for doing x, well, it probably involves a sport and you're probably a millionaire but whatever.

you're saying that FCs aren't meaningful because they're not related to the score hierarchy, but that is not and has never been the case, even with games that prioritize score to a greater degree than FFR. a full combo on Mei another in IIDX is a huge deal, for example; only I think one person has done it, even though FC's aren't recognized by the game.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Originally Posted by Wayward Vagabond

Hard pass:

Amazing->perf(life regen 1)
Perf->good(no life regen)
Good->avg(life penalty 1)
Avg->boo(life penalty 2)
Boo=boo(life penalty 3)

*ahem*

[Arch0wl]

I think we should listen to Wayward Vagabond but what would he know about FFR he's only designed most of the charts in the game

[Wayward Vagabond]

hand crafted with love and ddreams

[ca25nada]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

Dude, I love you. I've never seen that data before but I've wanted it forever.

Do you have the data for Pop'n? That game's lifebar is ridiculous.

I have no idea for pop'n but the recovery rate is note count dependent.
It's somewhere around 40+ greats for a single bar for certain songs


(also fixed a typo i made with the hard/exhard values)

[SK8R43]

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

wait, what? FC's are absolutely meaningful goals to strive for, even with the scoring change.

meaningfulness, in terms of goals, is inversely related to achievability. if everyone can do x, then it's not that meaningful of an accomplishment; if you're the only person in the world who can do x, it's definitely meaningful; if you're the only person who can do x and there is an ocean of competition for doing x, well, it probably involves a sport and you're probably a millionaire but whatever.

you're saying that FCs aren't meaningful because they're not related to the score hierarchy, but that is not and has never been the case, even with games that prioritize score to a greater degree than FFR. a full combo on Mei another in IIDX is a huge deal, for example; only I think one person has done it, even though FC's aren't recognized by the game.

Not really. I mean fc's are cool, but you dont really need them anymore. Sure you can get stuff like HWG for getting a bunch of fc's, but in terms of scores theres no need for them especially if you are mashing for them in which case thats meaningless because of raw scoring.

[andy-o24]

Originally Posted by SK8R43

Not really. I mean fc's are cool, but you dont really need them anymore. Sure you can get stuff like HWG for getting a bunch of fc's, but in terms of scores theres no need for them especially if you are mashing for them in which case thats meaningless because of raw scoring.

This is the majority of people's thought nowadays, Arch. That's why I said it. I personally like FCs but they do seem to have less importance. The gradual decline of FFR~

-o24

[Arch0wl]

@SK

you didn't read/understand what I said

meaningfulness is unrelated to score, it's related to achievability, how people regard them is... tangential, since people tend to hyperfocus on their current skill range, and most of the people who post here are extreme outliers relative to the average

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnWYCAlmiHE

this is, I believe, the only fc of this song on iidx, and it's completely unrelated to score but you better believe it's significant

if FCs were unmeaningful on FFR it'd be because of mashability, not because FCs themselves are unmeaningful; a non-mashed FC on a hard song is still an accomplishment

[Tyson ultima]

Nah Rag is the second person to have a video recorded FC of the song. There is a nicodouga video of a dude giving a tutorial on how to nonran FC Mei. Also I mean there is another guy who FC'd Mendes Black which is well probably the only FC on it.

[Arch0wl]

holy fuck who fc'd mendes black