Do you have a religion?

[rushyrulz]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

The difference between Religion and the Dragon in the garage is that the Dragon doesn't have books dedicated to it with an entire segment of population preaching it + history marks left over multiple centuries.
Maybe that part of the population is crazy, but I like to think there's potentially more to it.

Does a ton of people believing something necessarily mean that that thing is actually true? Think of a magician who performs in front of a live audience and makes his/her assistant disappear. The audience might believe as an entity that the magician really vanished his/her assistant, but the truth of the matter is that it was just an illusion.

I would qualify myself as a gnostic (or strong) atheist and my reason is this: Humans have always looked for answers to questions they have about the world and are usually not willing to accept "don't know" or "can't know" as an answer. Instead we look for an explanation, and when we don't/can't find one, we invent one. I believe this is how religion came about in the first place and it's also why there are so many different religions around the world. Groups of early humans all around the world came up with their own narratives for how this world came to exist and how we as humans came to exist. It was the best explanation at that time, so it was accepted en masse by these cultures and in turn passed down to their young.

Because humans are constantly looking for explanations and validation in their beliefs, they might pray for an outcome, and if it becomes realized, they will attribute it to their God(s) and use that as validation that their religion is true, when in actuality it is equally, if not more plausible, to be a coincidence. When implementing a thought process like this, it is very dangerous when it comes to continuing to validate a belief that is unfalsifiable. Your belief system will never and can never be disproven, which leads us to the God of the gaps and still having religion today. When science explains one thing that was previously attributed to religion, there will usually be another unknown that will take its place. I have done more research on the topic of religion than I care to admit and the reason why people believe with 100% confidence that their God(s) is/are real is that they were raised in the religion and that they have experienced life-changing events that they attribute to the God(s). When trying to reason with these people by using another religion as an example, the usual response is that people can believe what they want to believe, but they believe their religion is the truth and others (who are equally as convinced as they are, but with Allah instead of Yahweh) are believing a lie simply because it is what they have grown up their whole life knowing.

relevant vid (talk starts at 3:40):

[Travis_Flesher]

Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace

in case you missed it- christians are commanded to proselytize, it's part of the christian duty to serving god, you can't abandon that responsibility and then still claim your soul is going to be saved

I understand where both mina and hakulyte are coming from. In the bible belt region of south US where I have lived for 20+ years there are churches everywhere. Most of the church leaders would agree with mina. I agree with hakulyte though, like yeah christianity is great just don't take it too seriously.

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

The difference between Religion and the Dragon in the garage is that the Dragon doesn't have books dedicated to it with an entire segment of population preaching it + history marks left over multiple centuries.

If the scribes and scholars had faced the dragon, we wouldn't have such a rich history.

[the sun fan]

yes mina, it does matter how you conduct yourself in a discussion

the reason she was frustrated with you is not because she felt like you were winning, if I know her posting style, and I think I do, then she doesn't believe she's lost with a good deal of certainty.

if people don't want to engage you because you're being an asshole, it doesn't matter if you've Won A Thread; you actually lose credibility because it could look to some people like the discussion ended prematurely, and it may very well be the case.

I'm not saying you can't be an asshole, and I'm not even saying that you shouldn't be an asshole in most situations because as far as I can tell its who you are, but when having a discussion like this, yes, it absolutely matters.

you can also fluster whoever you are arguing with (without mention of anyone else) and if all you're trying to do is show off how big your brain's penis is, then that's aite, but if you want to have a real discussion that doesn't end in a loop of "They're not talking to me so I win and their point was dumb so I'd win anyway."

also, who gives the fuck about a hyphen em dash whatever we're here to talk about religion.

----------------------------------

I think something that is kind of interesting to me is specific points in the lives of people who don't believe in any particular faith. Speaking solely for myself, I don't have a specific point in my life where I can point to and say "Yeah, on January 31st 2011; that's the day I stopped being a Christian" but I think a lot of people who were raised in a particular faith have these stories and I'd be interested to hear some.

[the sun fan]

I feel like trying to clarify a bit since I think I explained that pretty fucking awfully

If you want spectators and the person(s) you are arguing with to respect your points, being not-an-asshole is important

[ormix]

You see funnygurl, you have to chill out. Minas perpetual articulation limbo is a logic validation mechanism to witch he also finds comfort as some one of faith would other wise.

We are brought up to understand one thing more universally than the other being that if you're wrong, its like the entirety of you're mental make up is in question and that of a virtual death so you would start over to learn what others think is right.

So naturally being right is all that's ever going to matter. Committing mental suicide via over contemplation will create a feed back loop when every ones position has been stated and can be acknowledge to move on.

[G.S.M]

I always found it pretty absurd that a god exists and find it pretty insulting to the human race to say it was the work of some god that has a grand plan lol. (was not brought up by parents to think one way or another about religion)

I also find most of the time they love to cherry pick from the bible to do bad things, make excuses, you name it. What about all of the ridiculous verses that every religious person today ignores? Why not believe in all of them? Why believe in god if you are not willing to believe in the bible to the fullest and simply just cherry pick what you like?

Doesn't sound like a faithful believer to me. I do believe it is an archaic dead thing that should be left as history, nothing more.

note: i do believe this is a fine thing to talk about as long it does not turn into a flame war... I do understand it can be a frustrating thing on both sides, just keep it to debate, and not personal

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Does a ton of people believing something necessarily mean that that thing is actually true? Think of a magician who performs in front of a live audience and makes his/her assistant disappear. The audience might believe as an entity that the magician really vanished his/her assistant, but the truth of the matter is that it was just an illusion.

Is there something wrong with believing in something that's potentially not true if it doesn't have negative consequences ?
Does truth necessary brings more to the table despite being more preferable than a lie (or an hypothesis) ?

If blue is my favorite color and green is proven to be the best favorite color; am I wrong to prefer blue ?

My point is that religion is like a driving force in life. I don't find knowing the truth that important at the end of the day. That's great if someone finds it, but until this happens, I'm more than satisfied living with my hypothetical world.
It genuinely makes me happier as a person, otherwise I wouldn't bother. We have the present to live and if it makes you more comfortable believing in more down to earth things like science, the more power to you.

Being agnostic and believing that you don't know because it's not proven either way is completely fine btw. I just wonder if you get anything out of thinking that way over choosing a side spiritually speaking.

Also, I liked that video because what she said pretty much align with what I think.
I'm definitely lower than 85% confidence in beliefs, but I've never been someone with strong convictions even outside of religion, but that's simply something I need to work on.

Notice how at 12:00 she says "I feel like it's good to believe in something to give us hope". I really strongly agree with that line of thinking and I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of the main reasons behind beliefs.

Religion is just not as necessary nowadays because people have more time to think and create their own system to deal with life. It's still an option tho.

[Walrusizer]

Originally Posted by Hakulyte

The difference between Religion and the Dragon in the garage is that the Dragon doesn't have books dedicated to it with an entire segment of population preaching it + history marks left over multiple centuries.
Maybe that part of the population is crazy, but I like to think there's potentially more to it.

The part you're missing with this is that there are many, vastly different, religions which fall under the category of having "books dedicated to it with an entire segment of population preaching it + history marks left over multiple centuries.". Considering that basically every one of these religions say that "yo dawg, i am the one true religion", they can't all be correct. Also, the vast majority of people are not religious because they critically thought about the issue and decided that religion X is correct, they're religious because they were raised that way. I'm prepared to bet that if people were not taught from a young age to be religious and that anybody who disagreed with you was just wrong then religion would be far less common today. Living in Tennessee, I see this all the time. Basically everybody I know would call themselves Christians (and consider atheists to be literally Hitler), yet they can never provide a reason for their beliefs that doesn't boil down to "my parents told me that". Even further, it doesn't matter what people believe when we see literally no evidence for any religion. People used to think that lightning was caused by good ole' Zeus getting angry or some shit, that doesn't mean it's true.

Originally Posted by Funnygurl555

posting to mention that loftys still wrong. carry on

wow nice degrees though not like you got straight a's at an ivy league tho check. mate. i win. bet ur dum n u suk
#funnygurladapretentiousjoke

Lofty is not wrong and you are making yourself look like an idiot, how about you do as he is doing and actually provide some evidence for your claim that he is incorrect?

Also, stop with this ivy league bullshit. You don't have to be smart to get decent test scores. You don't have to be smart to not get 64% in highschool classes. You don't have to be smart to be in fuckin clubs. I know complete idiots who have perfect highschool GPAs, I know complete idiots who have good ACT/SAT scores. Everybody I know who is a part of those extracurricular clubs and shit is a complete idiot. End this.

[ormix]

edit:

[Hakulyte]

Originally Posted by Walrusizer

The part you're missing with this is that there are many, vastly different, religions which fall under the category of having "books dedicated to it with an entire segment of population preaching it + history marks left over multiple centuries.". Considering that basically every one of these religions say that "yo dawg, i am the one true religion", they can't all be correct. Also, the vast majority of people are not religious because they critically thought about the issue and decided that religion X is correct, they're religious because they were raised that way. I'm prepared to bet that if people were not taught from a young age to be religious and that anybody who disagreed with you was just wrong then religion would be far less common today. Living in Tennessee, I see this all the time. Basically everybody I know would call themselves Christians (and consider atheists to be literally Hitler), yet they can never provide a reason for their beliefs that doesn't boil down to "my parents told me that". Even further, it doesn't matter what people believe when we see literally no evidence for any religion. People used to think that lightning was caused by good ole' Zeus getting angry or some shit, that doesn't mean it's true.

Yeah, I can see where you're going with this. This is one of the main reasons why I've been sharing a view that deviates from the orthodox religious view. To have a belief that comes from oneself rather than an outside influence like education/family etc. you have to take an independant stance toward your religion which literally breaks the concept of being religious because you're admitting that you want to think deeper than what is proposed as the truth. I think it's fair to say that I'm contradicting the spirit of religion by pushing my own interpretation into it which should disqualify me as "Christian" like Mina said earlier.

I guess I can't just reinvent how to view religion to my liking. Well that sucks, now I feel like I'm just irrelevant instead of getting this discussion somewhere.

Good points.

[Dinglesberry]

Yall too mean

[Hakulyte]

btw, I really wanted to believe Santa Claus existed too because I thought as a kid that the "Christmas Spirit" was really cool because that was feeding me with inspiration and I was looking forward to that each year.

That's a shame really.

Well, that won't stop me from taking 15-30min eventually to make a santa hat for my avatar.

Makes you wonder; what if God is proven to not exist and people still decide to keep believing in its teachings just for the hell of it ?

[Travis_Flesher]

Originally Posted by G.S.M

I also find most of the time they love to cherry pick from the bible to do bad things, make excuses, you name it. What about all of the ridiculous verses that every religious person today ignores? Why not believe in all of them?

Heh. I am surprised this topic doesn't have more sporadic bible verses. It will probably happen. People are being very logical, perhaps too logical. The bible verses will come.

Originally Posted by Walrusizer

You don't have to be smart to get decent test scores. You don't have to be smart to not get 64% in highschool classes. You don't have to be smart to be in fuckin clubs.

Take this guy for example. No one thought he'd be a good golfer but look what happened. Sometimes you just gotta trump 'em to succeed, even if you're not 'smart.'

Originally Posted by rushyrulz

Nothing could sway my belief that there's a supreme deity. This topic has really contrasted how I must sound to those annoying atheists and agnostics when looked at it from their point of view.

[Travis_Flesher]

Atheism and agnosticism are not religions, they are the lack thereof.
The primary reason that they haven't been flogged with a Godstick is because religious people tend to be more humble than that.

[ormix]

you are the ONE travis flesher - EDAyUumm

[Mahou]

Originally Posted by ormix

you are the ONE travis flesher - EDAyUumm

Don’t take this the wrong way but weren’t you the one saying you were going off the grid?

[ormix]

Originally Posted by Mahou

Don’t take this the wrong way but weren’t you the one saying you were going off the grid?

Yup that was me - and a product of a mental break down. You seem compelled to single me out, and that much I might sense why I've generally been ignored by most people.

It's no big deal really but life was too boring living a month with out a computer so sure enough here I am :v

edit: but even tho I came back I have had an dramatic change of heart towards developing my social life not to be in such a bind again with out the internet/a computer... It's a frightening prospect that I've set myself up to be alone forever and now I'm attempting to do a 180 xD

[ormix]

oh I forgot to mention directly that jesus is my nigerian and the son of the original g

[Travis_Flesher]

I believe I would rather face a radical jihadist than any more of these flaccid atheists and agnostics.
Also, one of English's primary words begins with the syllable 'hell'

[Celirra]

I think both sides of this argument are being childish and immature; in my mind there's definitely a clear instigator, and there's definitely a bandwagon effect going on here and a bit of an unfair ganging up on someone who's already down, but that's besides the intent of this thread as a whole.

This was never a "religion is terrific I love it and everyone should be religious" thread; rather, more just to see where everyone stands. I think it's a bit out of line the direction that this thread has gone, such being "X stance is bad and illogical" or "Y stance is unfair and apathetic" (not necessarily arguments being made, for the record; consider them examples) etc.

This kind of bickering, and incessant need to prove to others that your stance and belief is the right one is what ultimately draws people either away from, or towards, a pious stance, and is generally the principle root of conflict related to the matter. Sure, there are instances of conflict for the sake of honouring a god, or preserving the image of a religion (eg. the crusades) or similar, but I'd say a majority are attributed to a stance of Belief X vs Belief Y, a concept that should probably be a thing of the past.

Nobody's going to be converted to either a stance of piety or atheism due to debate in an online forum (especially one like FFR); all that's really going to be achieved here through this kind of conflict is further division, and merely for the sake of appearing intelligent or "right".

I was raised growing up that there's three things that probably shouldn't be discussed in a social situation: religion, politics, and finances. Sure, you could argue that a forum board dedicated to social interaction isn't necessarily social in the same way as say, a dinner with friends would be, but I think the intended atmosphere of this thread was more the way of a group hangout, rather than a heated debate. And sure, the original topic itself was dedicated to the very discussion of the religious topic, but I'd argue that it's moreso the path that this thread went down that led to this, rather than the original intent and goal. Then again, perhaps this is just further proof for why those three topics probably shouldn't be brought up.

There isn't really a winner or a loser in this sort of situation; all that could really come of this is hurt feelings, or an inflated ego. I think both are pretty bad, and reflect poorly on all parties involved.