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Old 11-13-2008, 04:56 PM   #1
Hydlide
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Default I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Here's a random thought that I wrote down in notepad yesterday when I was thinking out loud. I have posted this same thought on multiple boards.. And being a hardcore Reason user, and you people probably knowing me being a hardcore reason user.. I just wanted to share this moment...

So here goes...

Personally, I have been a reason user myself fully since Reason 2.5. And seriously. Reason has been a really great tool to work with since then. But still, I have a feeling that reason users themselves are being hold back for some thought. Propellerhead makes you decide what to use, in some way, other wise some merchandise like "Refill" packages could never take place.

Personally, I think that most of the sounds that are actually in the Reason factory soundbank is something you would expect from a complete studio like that. Since, it almost comes with a 'complete' set of any instrument you could think of. And it works pretty well. However, when I look at the synths... they are somewhat limited in a way, even though I have found a workaround for it. I personally think it shouldn't be like that in the first place.

Just to name a few:

Why can I not load up a wave file inside a subtractor? I know I can use the same things inside the NN-XT or NN-19 sampler. But personally I think I can get more out of a subtractor (subtraction, or multiply for instance) from this beast then having to trick something inside one of the 2 samplers. The subtractor itself is based on a pattern. Why cannot this be a sample too? I mean, make the sample a pattern and you would have the same exact thing.

Same thing goes with the malstrom. I do know the thought behind the granual synthesis. But why couldn't it be like a "load custom wave file" inside the malstrom? The only thing the malstrom does, basicly, is slice up the sample into 64 portions and plays those back.So, having a similar algorythm like: filesize / 64 = one granual slice. Or is there just more to it then that? I don't know... I can actually recall that I had to trick it with the NN-XT + RPG to recreate a granual Malstrom using samples. Why couldn't this just be one of the features in the malstrom to begin with?

Shift? Is that the problem? Hmm.. Vocoder, NN-XT, shift.. works the same way.. I know, but why all the hastle when we can do without?

Same goes with the Dr Rex. I mean, Rex technoligy has been here since the early days of reason. The Dr Rex has NEVER EVER had a facelift since then. If you really want to know what I mean: look at the way Ableton live uses Rex technoligy! It is awesome! Another example would be the old slicer of Fruity Loops, which is basicly the Dr Rex. But later on, in version 8 they upgraded it and came with the Slice X! Thats innovation for yah.

Filters in general... I have been following other programs that even have more filter types then reason does. Why is there always a limit inside the filters. Can't older modules be upgraded too? Why does Thor have the formant filter, the Comb filter and the Low Pass Ladder filter while the subtractor doesn't? I don't know. Maybe it has something to do with lazyness and they didn't want to upgrade existing older synths. So they basicly decided that we as the music artists have to figure out how to route a subtractor inside a Thor patch to make use of the new filter types... For god sake.. Why?!

I mean, even the Controlled Filter hasnt been upgraded since reason 2.5. Why do I still need to route a subtractor or NN-XT through a Malstrom patch just to get a comb filter effect?! Why!?

In a way, I do love the idea that old goes with new. But why not just upgrade the old stuff as well. Is it too much to ask? Or are we always going to have to stick with good old subtractor and nothing get upgraded and we have to tear our hairs of our heads to get a new sound out of it because Reason 4 does only have a modulate envelope that is fully customizable while thor is the only device that can do that...

Why not just bring in all the wave forms from the subtractor or malstrom in thor? Would also save a lot of hastle to begin with... I mean, as far as I can tell, the only device that can get a Sawtooth 16 sound like a sawtooth 16...is the malstrom. the multi oscillator of thor doesnt even come close to it.

Comparing it with other music programs
Seriously, I know what Propellerhead is trying to do... to set the standards for themselves and make something stable and making their own thing. And not looking into other music programs. Here's a thought: thats mistake number one!

I mean, reason will always be reason, Fruity loops remeans fruity loops and Ableton still is Ableton. But why can't... or even better yet: Why DONT! other music program developers look at some techniques that other programs have, while others don't. I mean that is simply stupid and brings back the whole discussion back what has been a discussion since day one of Mod trackers made on the Amiga system: this program is better then that one because...

Take my advice: when people actually bring up discussions like that, it means you are doing something wrong here...And I am the next person that can be added to the list to admit that Reason is not the 'best' DAW yet. I already pointed out a few right now.

But. There is more to trash on... The Sequencer

Personally, I really embrace the new sequencer inside Reason 4. Don't get me wrong about that. But personally, when I compare it with the original sequencer of Reason 3. The new sequencer was more based on midi input, rather then looking back at the once that don't have one. Just to name one: the line tool! I mean, I know where it is... but I had like uberhack comments going like

"Hey.. I know a new trick, press CTRL+ALT and you get a plus sign. I haven't figured out what it does... but this is just something I wanted to share with you!".

This is almost like a comment I got inside my PM box of Youtube. Meaning: people don't even know what:
- a line tool is
- think they figured out something special because they pressed a key combination
- a manual looks like

But on a personal note. The line tool has been a VITAL componment inside my Reason 3 productions. Just the fact that people go stunned after reviewing my "how to do a snare drum roll" tutorial on youtube, just means the following to me: the line tool should never ever been as criptic as it is of today! Seriously!

Its like, here you have a lolly pop... Now we will just put it in a bag, and you just need to figure out how to get it...

Which brings me to another thing: look back at other sequencers. One of the cool things about modplug (a really old tool comming from the late 90's) introduced a method to transpose a whole sequence.In a way, I can do this on intstrument level. However, most programs come with a simple to use transpose option. Heck, even back in the good old 1984 there was a program that even did the same thing. I do understand the whole sequencer thing... I have to use a mouse. But what if I would just progress CTRL + and get a transpose up... How hard would that be?

Heck, its even in the matrix pattern sequencer. Why couldnt this be inside the sequencer itself?

One of the real nice features I find within fruity loops these days are the 'helper' tools that are inside the Sequencer of Fruity loops. Just to name one: the slicer! It is ****ing awesome! See... I look at another program, see a nice feature and I can even mention it... Which also brings me to the limited 1/64 notes... Why can't this be 1/512 notes? or 1/128 notes even? I mean, the Arpeggiator supports 1/128. The matrix does... why doesn't the sequencer do this? Now i have to make a pattern on 1/128 notes. copy the whole thing to the sequencer. and move on with that. Why cannot I use 1/128 notes on the sequencer? because no one uses them? I do

Another cool thing I found inside fruity loops, which is also a bit lame in a way.. but it works: the chords helper. I mean, why can't it be a thing inside Reason? Because people that make music inside Reason know how to make music... Ok, I know... but do 100's of people even know what a chord looks like? If reason wasn't ment to be to be a tool to get new people into playing music. Fine, I will accept it... It is for the group of people that know how to create music. But this will also mean that eventually the newcommers will skip it, because they don't know how to create music...

And personally, I have seen alot of people struggle with reason and moved on because of the same thing. They don't know how too... but they want to... Reason doesn't provide it.. so they move on. How customer friendly is that.

By now you might think I am doing a pissing contest on Reason right now... And yes.. I am... I am a reason geek myself. But I am a Reason geek that had his eyes opened! I still think the whole concept about Reason not embrasing VST's is awesome. Since it is stable as hell! I have never had a crash in my life! But I just wanted to point out a few 'limitations' even though I can use work arounds for some of them, but still. I think there are some problems going on with the current development stages. If they would actually add an Odin to the reason rack (which is a old school joke in a way) just to add a new synth with new options... And not paying attention to what is already inside the current rack.. I think propellerheads will loose the fight from my point of view!

Since its like having a music artist on a string, constantly giving him new tools to use but never upgrade those that actually need one. I have found other tools already that have provided me the methods to move on. At this point I have always been using Reason as my primary music studio. But as I see it... with the other stuff I have been seeing in the last few weeks. I really think that Reason is behind. The only thing that I find cutting edge is the routing of Reason. And personally, if I would actually move on to another music tool that is one of the things I would definitly miss the most!

Signed, a dedicated person to Reason who has his eyes wide opened.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:08 PM   #2
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

I know hyd... i know ...


I talked so much trash on fruity loops for years. Even before I was producing music. Now I have to eat my words.
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Old 11-13-2008, 09:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Ahahahahahahaha
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Old 11-13-2008, 11:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

tl;dr
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Old 11-14-2008, 01:52 AM   #5
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Quote:
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tl;dr
Reason is awesome.. FL is better.

Nubbin is everyone's Hero.

There was something about you in there too Draigun, but I didn't read it.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:30 PM   #6
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

uhh.. why dont you just rewire reason in to another host? You get all of reasons functionality + vst's and ****.

I.e. Reason Rewired in to Ableton Live which is what I do now.
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Old 11-15-2008, 12:40 PM   #7
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

I think this has been said by like sleeplessdragn, but wouldn't it be cool if you uh...didn't have to buy a second program for that?
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Old 11-15-2008, 05:21 PM   #8
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

I'm waiting for the day when someone writes a wrapper vst for ReFills.
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Old 11-15-2008, 05:54 PM   #9
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

I'd second that.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:31 PM   #10
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Don't get me wrong on this. Reason is a fine program to use. But just think of it... I just sit here, take a beer.. get my thoughts straight. Post a random thought here.. and I come up with this story!

Really.. Reason is cool when it comes to its instrumentation. I can make VST's cry, run back to mommy and hope they wish they were never born when I touch a combinator and screw around with it.

But.. the thing is this. I have seen stuff inside VST's that Reason really needs to have! I mean, I have been looking at Z3ta+ (at least I know how to spell it this time). And the real time Shaper... Its like having a WET DREAM! I mean, nothing gets close to it inside any VST I have encountered.

I was drewling all over the place since I am an Analogue freak myself. Heck, I even embrase the subtractor over thor since I think thor is just something... that doesnt even come close to the subtractor.

But still, having to shape the analogue sounds the way the some VST's does is what has have ment to be... I personally won't throw away reason yet. Because what I can get out of a combinator will make any synth cry. But just the fact that I can't get any sound out of it that 'easy'... makes you wonder.

I personally have been trying to rewire Reason myself... and personally, its a pain in the but. But seriously.. If I had some part of the sequencer inside Reason, it would make life a lot easier.

Second, I think Reason has some limitations if it comes to old stuff... I mean the subtractor has been here since Reason version 1... and it still the same subtractor... That should give you some thought about that one.
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Old 11-15-2008, 07:38 PM   #11
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

See the thing is, reason was never meant to be a COMPLETE OMG FULL DAW. It is, and will probably always be what it is. Seriously though, I know reason has limitations up its ying yang, which is why Ive switched to the rewireing game. This way, reason is pretty much like one GIANT VST that gets hooked up to ableton. So I have the joys of sweet vst's and the joys of awesomeness that in reason.

Anyways, thats my 4 cents.
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:17 PM   #12
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

I personally think no other studio is going to be the OMG I AM DAW.. since I think it hasnt been invented yet.

If it would be, I think every one would speak about that one...
When it comes to the whole discussion about reason being the OMG IM THE ALMIGHTY DAW... I think they got close, but the didnt cut it... I have already commented on that part in a seperate part when I made a blog about z3ta + on this instance...

I wont give links, since people would just think I would just advertise... suck on that
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Old 11-15-2008, 08:37 PM   #13
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

wow you just now learned about fruity loops ... noob
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Old 11-15-2008, 09:55 PM   #14
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

I wasnt saying reason was a full out DAW. Im saying people are comparing reason to DAW'S, when reason in itself really isnt meant to be classified like that.
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:33 AM   #15
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorby View Post
wow you just now learned about fruity loops ... noob
Dont call me a noob.. please. I have been making music for the last 20 years now. that was even before FL was EVEN BORN NOOB!
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Old 11-16-2008, 12:44 AM   #16
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

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I wasnt saying reason was a full out DAW. Im saying people are comparing reason to DAW'S, when reason in itself really isnt meant to be classified like that.
Well.. I have been saying personally that Reason has been a complete DAW in the last 4 years. I have been making +400 songs by using Reason 2.5, reason 3 and Reason 4...

Some people will always have discussions about wheater Reason is a full DAW, or not... I won't join in that discussion. Since other persons cant create a complete audio track from Reason, where I can...

That says something about the other people I think. FL does not replace my for flow yet. Heck, I have said it so many times: the perfect music program hasnt been invented yet... Give that a thought.
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:55 AM   #17
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

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Originally Posted by KgZ View Post
can you redrum on fruity loops

hell nah

suck my cock you traitors
FL Layer, SliceX?

o_O o_O o_O

EDIT: And FPC, how the **** did I forget about FPC.
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:59 AM   #18
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KgZ View Post
can you redrum on fruity loops

hell nah

suck my cock you traitors
Yes, Battery 3 would be my answer.. But how ever I miss the tone -> velocity option...
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Old 11-17-2008, 06:36 AM   #19
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

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Nah I'm just messing around hydlide

I agree with you there are some things Reason still cannot do that other DAWs can, however I cannot stand fruity loops for the confusing interface and sequencer.
It's only confusing until you sit down and learn it. It's incredibly easy and efficient once you really get the hang of it.
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Old 11-17-2008, 07:59 PM   #20
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Default Re: I have been using reason for years now... and I have had my eyes opened.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hydlide View Post
Well.. I have been saying personally that Reason has been a complete DAW in the last 4 years. I have been making +400 songs by using Reason 2.5, reason 3 and Reason 4...

Some people will always have discussions about wheater Reason is a full DAW, or not... I won't join in that discussion. Since other persons cant create a complete audio track from Reason, where I can...

That says something about the other people I think. FL does not replace my for flow yet. Heck, I have said it so many times: the perfect music program hasnt been invented yet... Give that a thought.
It is not a DAW. It doesn't record audio...so it is not. It is a software synth workstation. The props never called it a DAW.

Reason was great to learn on. It has a pretty rounded selection of sounds and synths that are all in there from the beginning and easy to use. I'm glad I didn't start out with some other VSTi sequencer and have to go out looking for more good synths and sounds, slowing me down and confusing me as a novice. I still use it a lot, especially for drums because I like its compressors and the scream distortion. I always pair it up with Ableton Live with more VSTs and audio capabilities.

If Reason doesn't do everything you want in your software, then use something else, or add it to something else.
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