FFR Suggestions

[Pseudo Enigma]

Originally Posted by foxfire667

On a completely different note:
I think there should be an option implemented that restricts the amount of rows the "Recent Photos" tab shows. The way it is set up currently, every single picture you ever uploaded to FFR shows up, which is rather unnecessary. I suggest a setting in the style editor, like this example:


This way the profiles look a lot more neat, and gives the "View All" button an actual purpose.

imo he should implement the fix to hide the gamer cards before this. I'm dying for this to happen though.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by popsicle_3000

yeah, combo scoring is how ffr has always been. not a fan at all of changing that.
it's true, lvl ranks only really start mattering when you get better. for years all it was for me was FCing songs. now, my main motivator is AAAing and lowering ranks

The same could have been said for 1 frame perfects and average misses until they were fixed. Additionally it certainly wasn't a feature people liked even when FFR was just starting out, let me quote two people from the FIRST thread I can read in the FFR forums (early 2003).

Originally Posted by Arch0wl

... anyways, I think the scores should be changed so a miss really doesn't matter so it's like not getting a perfect or whatever... I think the scoring system should be heavily based on how many perfects/goods you got

Originally Posted by nestlekwik

The scoring system change is something I've pushed for. Supposedly, though, there is some sort of new scoring method in remix. I've documented reasons why the tournaments, definately, should not run on the combo scoring. I, too, think the scoring should be based on perfects/goods/averages instead of the combo.

Since then tons of people throughout FFR's lifetime have stated the obvious: combo scoring should be replaced. It's just not mentioned as much now because people believe it's this something that people liked in the past and was historical or whatever (meaning it won't ever change). The truth is the combo scoring system was never really liked in the first place, and probably should have been moved to raw scoring or a different variant a long time ago.

Honestly changing to raw scoring would only affect those who mash files for combo, by increasing their ranks. It would not only fully encourage people to actually PLAY hard files (instead of Mash Mash Revolution), but it would also feel rewarding to play as accurately as possible. This would most likely drive players to learn how to hit more difficult patterns earlier on, and improve their overall skill much quicker. It would also allow for good runs that have misses to be new personal bests, instead of rage inducing worthless scores.

It is much more rewarding to actually do GOOD on a song than it is to get a good rank for mashing away. You aren't even playing a RHYTHM game in that regard anymore, essentially hitting the keyboard at whatever the hell interval is possible for you to keep up with the arrows.

[Zakvvv666]

I 100% support the scoring change, it's not fair that I'm forced to mash an old FGO just to get the rank better than 500, and then it's still hard to do.

[noname219]

The sooner we'll change the scoring system, the easier the transition will be.

The main reason I see why admins don't want to change the scoring system is the current scores won't translate very well into raw scoring. That's the only reason I can think of. But I will 100% approve a change for this because it will made the game even more interesting.

[Wayward Vagabond]

I'm pretty sure the current scores could pretty easily be transferred to raw without much problem

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by noname219

The main reason I see why admins don't want to change the scoring system is the current scores won't translate very well into raw scoring. That's the only reason I can think of. But I will 100% approve a change for this because it will made the game even more interesting.

I'm just going to point out that FFR already records RAW scores into it's database through it's leader boards. The only issue that really needs to be dealt with is that the score wiping of old botters and score hackers on a few of the older songs. Once that is fixed, raw scoring could be implemented, and then you just fix any files you mashed in the past by PA'ing them, that's it. Honestly, it would be one of the best possible improvements FFR could make since the average miss glitch fix.

[ReikonKeiri]

I like combo scoring

[popsicle_3000]

Originally Posted by foxfire667

few of the older songs

wow never knew this! i find it hilarious!

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by noname219

The main reason I see why admins don't want to change the scoring system is the current scores won't translate very well into raw scoring. That's the only reason I can think of. But I will 100% approve a change for this because it will made the game even more interesting.

I think the issues are more of fairness, tradition, and the amount of work it'd involve.

Originally Posted by foxfire667

I'm just going to point out that FFR already records RAW scores into it's database through it's leader boards

Not quite. AFAIK your best raw score is not actually kept; this just gets the raw score equivalent of existing personal bests from the database.

[noname219]

Originally Posted by foxfire667

I'm just going to point out that FFR already records RAW scores into it's database through it's leader boards. The only issue that really needs to be dealt with is that the score wiping of old botters and score hackers on a few of the older songs. Once that is fixed, raw scoring could be implemented, and then you just fix any files you mashed in the past by PA'ing them, that's it. Honestly, it would be one of the best possible improvements FFR could make since the average miss glitch fix.

Wow, totally forgot about that link. Funny how there's tons of hackers, the RATO levelstats is quite lulzy.

Originally Posted by qqwref

Not quite. AFAIK your best raw score is not actually kept; this just gets the raw score equivalent of existing personal bests from the database.

That's what I thougth, but, we have to start somewhere. If we move from combo scoring to raw scoring, the link foxfire posted is probably the best way to make a transition. (or maybe, just maybe we could translate the combo scoring page (without all hackers-alt-botters) to the raw scoring page...)

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by ReikonKeiri

I like combo scoring

Why do you like combo scoring?

Originally Posted by qqwref

Not quite. AFAIK your best raw score is not actually kept; this just gets the raw score equivalent of existing personal bests from the database.

Forgot about that. Even still, it could just be altered so that raw scoring ranks take priority over combo scoring ranks, and then raw scoring is used for average ranks instead. All that means is I get the satisfaction of playing all my older mashed songs through PA and watching all of the ranks drastically improve.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by qqwref

I think the issues are more of fairness, tradition, and the amount of work it'd involve.

In regards to "tradition", I think that in the argument for people wanting to keep FFR as unique as possible (away from becoming just another SM), combo scoring has become a unique characteristic. At first, it may have been a shortcoming that derived from the original idea of the game, but after having combo-scoring for so long, it has somewhat become an asset in the characterization of this game that separates it from similar arrow-based rhythm games. It's sorta weird how detrimental aspects could turn into assets when you look at it that way. Avmisses could've been yet another "unique characteristic", but was thankfully killed quickly enough before people could really get that used to it.

I don't care either way if combo-scoring is maintained or removed. I'm not one of those people who were complaining about FFR moving towards a near-counterpart of SM. Who cares if it becomes really similar? So I'm fine with removing combo scoring if it does happen. I think right now, more people are concerned about the way their scores are determined rather than trying to stand out from SM as much as possible. The people who would move back to SM if FFR became really similar would only be a small loss overall.


In regards to "fairness": in a similar aspect of weighing the pros and cons, I would think it's more beneficial to change a fundamental aspect of the game rather than to preserve acknowledgment for XXX number of players who have played the game the "harder, traditional way". Not only that, I think removing combo-scoring is a more progressive decision that would move the site forward a lot better.


In regards to "amount of work involved", well...maybe that's a problem. What would it take?

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by bmah

In regards to "tradition", I think that in the argument for people wanting to keep FFR as unique as possible (away from becoming just another SM), combo scoring has become a unique characteristic. At first, it may have been a shortcoming that derived from the original idea of the game, but after having combo-scoring for so long, it has somewhat become an asset in the characterization of this game that separates it from similar arrow-based rhythm games. It's sorta weird how detrimental aspects could turn into assets when you look at it that way. Avmisses could've been yet another "unique characteristic", but was thankfully killed quickly enough before people could really get that used to it.

I personally feel that something that hinders the game should not be considered something along the lines of a "tradition", or something historical in any regard. Just because it is different doesn't make it good, and in actuality is one of the characteristics many identify as a flaw with the game in general. As I've already posted, people have been suggesting this change since early 2003, and that in it's own right should have warranted it some serious consideration many years ago. Not that you said this feature should be upheld because of such a notion, but I just genuinely don't like this type of reasoning for defending combo scoring.

I personally don't care if combo scoring still exists, as long as it doesn't dictate the leader boards or average ranks. These things should represent how accurately you can play the chart, not how high of a combo you can mash.

[bmah]

That has been the general reasoning for a long time. As I said already, a lot of people are now opting for the change instead. But the biggest challenge now is not changing people's mindset, but rather, how exactly to code raw scoring in as the main scoring factor. That and the time required to code it in.

[ReikonKeiri]

Originally Posted by foxfire667

Why do you like combo scoring?

I don't want to be given the illusion that I'm good at FGOs when I'm not. One of my favorite things to do on FFR is try for new FCs I wasn't able to get before and that would be a pointless effort if raw scoring becomes the new thing. I don't mash out FCs for the most part so each new FC proves to me that I'm getting better.

It's not a good argument I know, but it makes sense to me.

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by ReikonKeiri

I don't want to be given the illusion that I'm good at FGOs when I'm not. One of my favorite things to do on FFR is try for new FCs I wasn't able to get before and that would be a pointless effort if raw scoring becomes the new thing. I don't mash out FCs for the most part so each new FC proves to me that I'm getting better.

It's not a good argument I know, but it makes sense to me.

How would raw scoring give you the illusion you are good at FGO's or higher? If anything, combo scoring gives people undeserved rank boosts and the illusion of actually doing well.

Raw scoring doesn't defeat the purpose of getting FC's, but instead takes away the ridiculous weight that combo has on your rank. It would also make full combos actually meaningful skill wise, considering you would have to full combo with your best PA to obtain them in your FC bar (meaning Quickdraw and Here We Go would actually mean something).

If you don't mash FC's, then this will have very little effect on how you play FFR. The only difference it would make for you is that your average rank would improve, and you could focus on accuracy instead of combo. Considering that this is a rhythm game, how well you move to the rhythm should really be the most important factor in how you are ranked.

[ReikonKeiri]

Still doesn't change my mind. Also because I've mashed the FGOs I'm bad at enough to get good ranks on all of them, I'd have to replay all of them to get better raw score which would not be fun in the slightest. Those files hurt my hands.

[Zakvvv666]

While I have some FGO's mashed to have better ranks even though I didn't FC them, I would still prefer to go back and play them over time and improve my raw score, sure the files aren't fun to go through, but after doing so it would better reflect your real skill.

[dragonmegaXX]

+1 raw scoring. It would be interesting to see my new levelranks

[foxfire667]

Originally Posted by ReikonKeiri

Still doesn't change my mind. Also because I've mashed the FGOs I'm bad at enough to get good ranks on all of them, I'd have to replay all of them to get better raw score which would not be fun in the slightest. Those files hurt my hands.

Good ranks that, you have to admit you probably don't deserve, and have taken away from those who actually play the files properly. I was going to pull up several examples from your level stats, but it doesn't seem like you actually were able to full combo a lot of the harder Guru or higher difficulty songs. I guess top 200 on VS boss battle with a 156.75.0.115 is still pretty stupid, and top 300 on Pants with a 311.206.0.643 is even more hilarious. Do you really feel these scores should be ranked so highly on a leader board for most accurate arrow smashing? Even when they overshadow much more accurate scores like 10.0.2.1's or 18.2.1.4's?

You not being an amazing player has no bearing on why combo scoring should be kept, such a notion is pretty selfish to even mention in the first place. If you aren't good enough to do well on these files, you should get better until you are able to do so. You shouldn't be rewarded for doing terrible on files, and you certainly shouldn't hinder others who can do well with these sorts of scores.

PS:

Do you honestly believe that if you were to mash an FC on this file, that this run should be significantly WORSE than yours? Do you believe that others who play accurately but miss should abandon accuracy and mash away to "improve their skill" on files? I genuinely hope not.