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Old 08-5-2019, 06:48 PM   #21
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

How did he get an "ak47 style rifle" btw I haven't heard
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:04 PM   #22
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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Lol i'm saying there are times where having a "good guy with a gun" around can be a very good thing. It's not black and white.
Theoretically it can be a good idea. But would you allow 10 more El Paso shootings to happen if the "good guy with a gun" only pops up a single time? Based on what we've seen those are just terrible odds to bet on, so little it's not even worth entertaining seriously.

EDIT: Maybe there's a middle ground but asserting that Batman with a gun is gonna save us from mass shootings ain't it chief.
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:17 PM   #23
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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How did he get an "ak47 style rifle" btw I haven't heard
that's a good question.

@dabackback
I'm not betting on the good guy with a gun to save the day... i'm just saying that at least that's better then nothing at all.
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:21 PM   #24
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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Can you even show me, say...five such cases in the last 10 years? And then argue whether those cases justify the offsetting hundreds and hundreds of not prevented mass shootings?

If the cost of 'good guys with guns' who might get to save the day 1 in every 2000 mass murders is the other 1999 mass murders, I don't think you're arguing a very sustainable point.

From the study that DBP linked above:



Owning a gun puts you at a larger risk of being murdered, not a lower one.
i don't think this is an appropriate statistic to support the claim you're making.

when you share a home with someone, you trust someone enough to be vulnerable with them, so oftentimes you wouldn't actively think to protect yourselves against them. so, the presence of a deadly force in the home will increase the risk of someone who already wants you dead doing it successfully, granted they have access to the gun themselves

but the statistic shouldn't be used to defend guns not being at home, or on someone's person. rather, the gun that someone does have should be safeguarded against others, especially those with precarious mental states. and while i'm at it, children.

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I'll go out on a limb and say that yes, civilian gun ownership for purposes besides hunting and sport shooting is always a bad thing.

Edit: I suppose on further reflection, I need to explicitly account for people who live in rural/farm areas where there are actual animal predators capable of killing livestock etc, but I mostly lump that in with hunting.
this is almost as bad as if my "everyone should have guns" comment were unqualified
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:23 PM   #25
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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that's a good question.

@dabackback
I'm not betting on the good guy with a gun to save the day... i'm just saying that at least that's better then nothing at all.
-----but is that small percentage a worthy tradeoff for the larger percentage of crimes you could pevent entirely

that's the question
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:26 PM   #26
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:31 PM   #27
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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but the statistic shouldn't be used to defend guns not being at home, or on someone's person. rather, the gun that someone does have should be safeguarded against others, especially those with precarious mental states. and while i'm at it, children.
This specific paper controls for mental instability and histories of violence. That said, I'm not sure the conclusion dev made is justified by this paper by itself. I listed it to challenge the notion that "gun ownership in the home" is a sufficient condition for "being safer" (to some degree of confidence). The correlation is not that simple: there are factors, known and unknown, that actually raise mortality in these situations.
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:31 PM   #28
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally
Maybe they're a *bit* too prevalent though if all these 21 year olds can buy them no prob. You think a 21 year old skin head could afford black market weapons?
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:32 PM   #29
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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This specific paper controls for mental instability and histories of violence. That said, I'm not sure the conclusion dev made is justified by this paper by itself. I listed it to challenge the notion that "gun ownership in the home" is a sufficient condition for "being safer" (to some degree of confidence). The correlation is not that simple: there are factors, known and unknown, that actually raise mortality in these situations.
rip i should read LOL

edit:i guess to be clearer this invalidates my recommendations

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Maybe they're a *bit* too prevalent though if all these 21 year olds can buy them no prob. You think a 21 year old skin head could afford black market weapons?
i don't think cost'll be a notable prohibitive factor to someone who wants to kill a bunch of people
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:34 PM   #30
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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you won't prevent it entirely. you're just going to prevent law-abiding citizens from having guns

people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally
Complete prevention will never happen and arguments like this are often used to refute any attempt at solution-making. "Nothing will work completely, therefore let's not do anything."

Incremental change is still valuable.

I also want to point out that nobody thinks that gun control is the only step required to reduce gun violence. Gun control is a part of a larger plan that we think can reduce gun violence.
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:36 PM   #31
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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Complete prevention will never happen and arguments like this are often used to refute any attempt at solution-making. "Nothing will work completely, therefore let's not do anything."

Incremental change is still valuable.

I also want to point out that nobody thinks that gun control is the only step required to reduce gun violence. Gun control is a part of a larger plan that we think can reduce gun violence.
i think gun control is good, but like sanjixcon i don't like it when people say that guns are bad
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:42 PM   #32
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

Right now, all I have is a knife, not that I think it would do me any good, but I have considered getting a gun. Briefly. Solely for the reasons that I think Xel purchased his.

Its a scary world; I can't fault someone for buying a weapon for the reasons Xel has. I know statistics suggest that you're significantly more likely to shoot yourself or someone you care about than you are to shoot someone who intends to do you or your family/friends harm, but owning a gun for those reasons still seems to me like it provides the most peace-of-mind.

The US is absolutely, entirely, completely beyond fucked up when it comes to guns and access to guns and obtaining a gun as easily and readily as possible and fuck you if you ask someone what they're going to do with it. An interesting bleak outlook on the world is whether or not you think the United States will significantly bring down the mass shooting numbers before Florida ceases to become a U.S. state because its entirely underwater.

So, between just putting any kind of concern out of mind that this could happen to me or anyone I care about and owning a pistol "just in case," I completely understand why someone would want to have that 2nd option.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

For stopping the shootings, there's absolutely nothing that the United States will consider doing within the next 15-20 years that will stop these events from happening. And 15-20 years is extremely, extremely optimistic. These events are not going to stop until the public does not have access to these kinds of weapons that can unload a large number of rounds in a short amount of time. And the United States is not even close to reaching a point where its even possible to consider this change happening.

A large part of this, I believe, stems from America's obsession with the Constitution. The founding fathers themselves could not have predicted the shelf-life that we've slapped onto that document, yet here we are, 300+ years later, still thumping our tables to the guarantee that the government will not quarter soldiers in the homes of civilians in times of peace.

Things have to change in a big way for America to stop being such an eyesore to the rest of the world. I think it would be beyond drastic, and my views on how this would happen are nowhere near feasible, but I think we need an entirely new basis for what America gets its values from before anything can change. We're stuck in the past because we have an obsession with a document that has outlived its purpose, only in letter.


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Originally Posted by Funnygurl555 View Post
people who really want to commit the crime will find a way to possess a gun-- even automatic ones-- illegally
I see this said often, and I agree that loosely-organized crime and above will definitely do this for years after America fixes its gun problem, if it ever does, but you mean to tell me that these mass shooters will get their hands on automatic weapons illegally to carry out these crimes?

I have nothing other than my intuition telling me that the harder you make it for people to do something, the less people will do it. Certainly, some people will still do it. But the number of mass shootings has to go down if you make it harder for people to get their hands on these kinds of weapons.
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:43 PM   #33
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

I still don't know any relevant facts, because nobody talks about them
I know the shooter was a white kid
I know he had an "ak-47 style gun"
And I know 29 people were killed in two different places
Where did he get the gun
What kind of gun is it
Where did he get ammo
Did he share his plans with anyone?
Etc
None of this is being talked about so how do you expect to fix a problem without any context of the problem?
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i was pretty close to letting this slide tbh, but honestly your utter lack of understanding of the situation irritates me more than anything else at this point
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seriously everything i wrote went way over your head if your reading comprehension is so far below third grade level while people may care about your opinion you should refrain from giving it because it's worthless
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:47 PM   #34
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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Originally Posted by flashflash account View Post
I still don't know any relevant facts, because nobody talks about them
I know the shooter was a white kid
I know he had an "ak-47 style gun"
And I know 29 people were killed in two different places
Where did he get the gun
What kind of gun is it
Where did he get ammo
Did he share his plans with anyone?
Etc
None of this is being talked about so how do you expect to fix a problem without any context of the problem?
Not all of the facts have been discovered yet, when they're released we can talk about those too. But why not talk about stuff we already know?

I know he shared a manifesto on 8chan, minutes before he started shooting. Which is another drop in the bucket as to why 8chan is a shithole that should be burned to the ground.

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A large part of this, I believe, stems from America's obsession with the Constitution. The founding fathers themselves could not have predicted the shelf-life that we've slapped onto that document, yet here we are, 300+ years later, still thumping our tables to the guarantee that the government will not quarter soldiers in the homes of civilians in times of peace.

Things have to change in a big way for America to stop being such an eyesore to the rest of the world. I think it would be beyond drastic, and my views on how this would happen are nowhere near feasible, but I think we need an entirely new basis for what America gets its values from before anything can change. We're stuck in the past because we have an obsession with a document that has outlived its purpose, only in letter.
sunfan coming in with the money shot
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:50 PM   #35
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

I've heard of 8chan
That place shouldn't exist for several reasons
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i was pretty close to letting this slide tbh, but honestly your utter lack of understanding of the situation irritates me more than anything else at this point
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seriously everything i wrote went way over your head if your reading comprehension is so far below third grade level while people may care about your opinion you should refrain from giving it because it's worthless
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:55 PM   #36
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

do they have a mafia community

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EDIT:


I see this said often, and I agree that loosely-organized crime and above will definitely do this for years after America fixes its gun problem, if it ever does, but you mean to tell me that these mass shooters will get their hands on automatic weapons illegally to carry out these crimes?

I have nothing other than my intuition telling me that the harder you make it for people to do something, the less people will do it. Certainly, some people will still do it. But the number of mass shootings has to go down if you make it harder for people to get their hands on these kinds of weapons.
yeah, it will go down, but by how much? relative to the determination it takes to commit mass murder, how much would it take to illegally buy a gun?
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Can you like not use those stupid names right now? Took me long enough to get these screen names straight in my head
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GET DUNKED FUNNY
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:57 PM   #37
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

No
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i was pretty close to letting this slide tbh, but honestly your utter lack of understanding of the situation irritates me more than anything else at this point
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seriously everything i wrote went way over your head if your reading comprehension is so far below third grade level while people may care about your opinion you should refrain from giving it because it's worthless
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Old 08-5-2019, 07:57 PM   #38
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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I've heard of 8chan
That place shouldn't exist for several reasons
you would think the fact that 8chan exists only because users were mad about 4chan banning child pornography would be enough reason to nuke it from orbit

but nope, 8chan was only dropped by Cloudflare because they're going public in a month
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Old 08-5-2019, 08:16 PM   #39
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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yeah, it will go down, but by how much? relative to the determination it takes to commit mass murder, how much would it take to illegally buy a gun?
my intuition (which I know isn't anything, I'm not trying to solve this issue just giving my hot takes) says that these people probably don't have the connections/funds needed to illegally buy a weapon like that

that shit is gonna be hella expensive on the black market, so probably it would go down by a significant amount

my bigger problem comes from people keeping their weapons because they believe the government can go to hell for trying to take away their weapons
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Old 08-5-2019, 08:32 PM   #40
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Default Re: El Paso and Dayton Shootings (SERIOUS TOPIC)

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my intuition (which I know isn't anything, I'm not trying to solve this issue just giving my hot takes) says that these people probably don't have the connections/funds needed to illegally buy a weapon like that

that shit is gonna be hella expensive on the black market, so probably it would go down by a significant amount

my bigger problem comes from people keeping their weapons because they believe the government can go to hell for trying to take away their weapons
yeah, at this point i don't have much but my intuition also, but my intuition says the opposite would occur :P
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Can you like not use those stupid names right now? Took me long enough to get these screen names straight in my head
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