I wasn't done with atheism/theism

[Cavernio]

Forward: This was very purposefully made a CT topic, and while I feel that its a topic that is and has been easily derailed many, many times, I don't think there was a need to lock or move the thread. I think many posts should have been edited or perhaps deleted to avoid the 'you're dumb' part of them, and I also feel that it's unfair for a moderator to feel like a thread or comment is derailed when they themselves haven't bothered to follow it. There were a number of different topics being discussed in the thread, and right up to the last page I learned things/thought of things I hadn't thought about. Lock this or delete it or whatever if you feel I've done wrong or whatever, but I'm going to write this anyways.

I respect you and I understand at least part of where you're coming from jj, but you've made a fatal logical error, and it is apparent in many of your posts, and I don't believe anyone's exactly pinpointed it, although there's definitely been talk around it.

"But in all these posts I haven't read not one reason why someone doesn't believe in God except to say that he doesn't believe he exists because he can't prove he exists. While on the other hand, I have gave countless reasons why I believe by qouting many passages from the Bible to explain them."

When you have a theory, and you want to scientifically test it, you don't use the same data to run experiments on. That's circular reasoning and ends up proving nothing and you might as well be saying 'It's so because I make it so'. When you say the Bible gives you proof for Gods existence, it's the exact same thing. You can't use evidence that already requires belief of what you are proving as proof. It's 100% circular. And because there is so much anti-religion sentiment these days, its crystal clear to most people that this is what you are doing, (even though I find people will not see themselves making those same errors in so many other aspects of their lives), which is why people have called you stupid.

I believe you have a fairly good grasp of the principles of needing proof though, because you have said that people themselves are fallible and cannot know everything, and I feel like you've pointed out that people themselves, by being bound within ourselves, fall into the same logical error of lacking any proof. Therefore everything we think and experience is all circular within ourselves. What I failed to grasp when you brought this topic up, however, is how believing in God circumvents this. Yes, if god exists then God by definition is omniscient which would, of course, allow us some sort of True clarity into existence. But there seems to be a rather serious missing link in what you're saying that everyone who doesn't believe in God sees; if I believe in God then that belief is also still within the realm of our own, self-supporting selves. To reiterate, even if God lies outside these bounds, your belief in God doesn't. (Which leads to an atheism vs agnostism argument, which is what reincarnate has gotten into, and that I think was best understood in a post he made a few years ago, but I can't even remember if it was ct or chit chat or if he was even the OP.)

Now you have also touched upon the idea that it is a sad, imperfect, lonely existence without God, not just for all the reasons that people have pointed out, but because then you know that nothing is fully real, that we are all just ourselves, that there is no proof of anything REAL. But then you turn around use your feelings and thoughts and ideas as proof that there is something real, and then illogically conclude that God must exist because otherwise, nothing real would exist. But all along, it's just been your perceptions, which you know are limited. All of it, Godly or secular (which I suppose means all Godly to you).

Maybe you wonder how you can possibly exist without God. But then you can in the same vein wonder how can God possibly exist. But God just exists...umm, obviously, it's God. But you just exist...obviously, you're here.

And now we are led to the ideas about feeling and beliefs being strong enough to count as proof of God. And so I ask again, if you didn't have emotions, if you didn't experience God's love, would you believe in God? And if you stopped feeling God's love, at what point would you start questioning how you lost God's love when you did nothing to stop God's love? I'm not talking about God's love as being portrayed through His actions, like killing your family or something, and then you rejecting God. I'm talking about actually losing God's love even though you have only tried ever harder to love and please God, even though you don't reject Him. At what point would your own self-perceptions of God not be strong enough for God to exist? Why do you think that peope who haven't found God must not be trying? Why do people who believe in God (jewish) believe in the same God as people who believe Jesus was God's son? And the follow-up, how can people who only know half of God say they know God just as much as you do if Jesus matters so much to being loved by God? Once you answer that, then why does it matter that ANYONE believes in God in order to experience God's love? Why is it not possible for every secular person to experience God's love all the time if God loves everyone? If it is always possible to feel God's love, then why do I have to be religious, ie: why would I have to attribute this love to your specific god when I could attribute it to Life or Existence, things that are so much stronger to my perceptions? (You can't call back on 'Because God exists' because that's circular reasoning and is not logical, and if you use arguments that are obviously not logical, then there's no point in debating or no way of gaining any sort of understanding.) Why would you think someone would be wrong if they prayed to The Spaghetti God? What makes your belief so strong that you know God but I don't?

In order to answer all of these questions properly, don't use circular logic.

[JJTrixX]

Thank you Cavernio for your considerate post and your thoughtful questions. I will do my best to answer them to the best of my knowledge.

And so I ask again, if you didn't have emotions, if you didn't experience God's love, would you believe in God?

No.

"Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God, and whoever loves has been born of God and knows God. Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love." 1 John 4:7-8

And if you stopped feeling God's love, at what point would you start questioning how you lost God's love when you did nothing to stop God's love?

You are assuming you did nothing to stop feeling Gods love, this is wrong. The truth is this: you stopped feeling Gods love because you stopped loving God. The answer would then be....at any point you wish.

At what point would your own self-perceptions of God not be strong enough for God to exist?

At no point because God will continue to exist whether your own self-perceptions of him are strong or not. You do not come to know God by your own self-perceptions of him.

Why do you think that peope who haven't found God must not be trying?

Because that is thier choice. God does not force us to believe in him, this is why we have the gift of free-will. I can not speak on the account of the multitude of those people for I am not they.

Why do people who believe in God (jewish) believe in the same God as people who believe Jesus was God's son?

They don't.

And the follow-up, how can people who only know half of God say they know God just as much as you do if Jesus matters so much to being loved by God?

There is no "half of God" to know. You either know God or you don't. They are liars. It says so in the scriptures:

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” 1 John 2:22-23

Once you answer that, then why does it matter that ANYONE believes in God in order to experience God's love?

To whom does it matter? If you chose not to believe in God, it's no skin off his back. You only have "death" to look forward to.

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16

Why is it not possible for every secular person to experience God's love all the time if God loves everyone?

Please consider Matthew 5:43-48, “YOU heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ However, I say to YOU: Continue to love YOUR enemies and to pray for those persecuting YOU; that YOU may prove yourselves sons of YOUR Father who is in the heavens, since he makes his sun rise upon wicked people and good and makes it rain upon righteous people and unrighteous. For if YOU love those loving YOU, what reward do YOU have? Are not also the tax collectors doing the same thing? And if YOU greet YOUR brothers only, what extraordinary thing are YOU doing? Are not also the people of the nations doing the same thing? YOU must accordingly be perfect, as YOUR heavenly Father is perfect.” So being “perfect” as God is “perfect” means loving those who do not love YOU. Christ taught us to love our enemies.

Gods enemies killed his first born Son. What could be worse that putting the son of God, Jesus Christ to death? Especially the way they did it. Can you think of anything? I honestly can’t myself. Yet Jesus prayed to his heavenly father, “please forgive them for they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34) Here Christ showed love for those who put him to death and asked his father to not hold this against them. Where did he learn this kind of love? From his Father of course.

Although God loves you, He hates the continous sin that you commit against him. Because Jesus Christ took YOUR punishment died for YOUR sins, it is not too late to be accepted into Gods grace by confessing, repenting, and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

If it is always possible to feel God's love, then why do I have to be religious, ie: why would I have to attribute this love to your specific god when I could attribute it to Life or Existence, things that are so much stronger to my perceptions?

It's not always possible. Just because God loves you, doesn't mean you always feel it. This should be self-evident in accordance with the second question you asked, "And if you stopped feeling God's love, at what point would you start questioning how you lost God's love when you did nothing to stop God's love?" <- those are your very own words.

(You can't call back on 'Because God exists' because that's circular reasoning and is not logical, and if you use arguments that are obviously not logical, then there's no point in debating or no way of gaining any sort of understanding.) Why would you think someone would be wrong if they prayed to The Spaghetti God?

What has the "Spaghetti God" done for you?

What makes your belief so strong that you know God but I don't?
In order to answer all of these questions properly, don't use circular logic.

You do not love God as I do.


I hope I answered all of your questions to your satisfaction and understanding. If I did not, I apologize. I can try my best to clarify anything else you may wish to know.

[Nullifidian]

Nice use of circular logic in every single answer.


PS

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

What has the "Spaghetti God" done for you?

Just as much as any other god

[bmah]

Cavernio, I have been following the topic and will continue to follow it, even if I haven't been particularly active in the conversation itself. I'm not here to constantly edit and delete posts if they consistently become off-topic. I moderate, but I don't babysit. The onus is on everyone to keep this thread relevant.

So play nice.

[Reincarnate]

You say it's a matter of "loving God" but you seem to continually dodge the question of "Why God in the first place"? Why do you think God exists? Because you feel it? Do you think things are true just because you feel it?

[dAnceguy117]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Because that is thier choice. God does not force us to believe in him, this is why we have the gift of free-will. I can not speak on the account of the multitude of those people for I am not they.

You say that some people choose not to believe in God. Would you say that these people choose not to find a reason to believe in God?

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

They don't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christi...oncepts_of_God

I don't see why you brushed off this question so hastily. Could you explain your answer?

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Although God loves you, He hates the continous sin that you commit against him. Because Jesus Christ took YOUR punishment died for YOUR sins, it is not too late to be accepted into Gods grace by confessing, repenting, and accepting Jesus Christ as your Lord and Saviour.

To whom is this comment directed? Are you accusing anyone on these message boards of having put Jesus Christ to death?

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

What has the "Spaghetti God" done for you?

I could claim that the Spaghetti God brought the universe into being, loves me, and deserves constant praise. What (aside from scientific research about the origin of the universe) gives my claim less credence than those of someone with a different set of beliefs?

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

Gods enemies killed his first born Son. What could be worse that putting the son of God, Jesus Christ to death? Especially the way they did it. Can you think of anything?

Hang on. God is omniscient; both God and Jesus knew this would happen before Jesus took human form. In fact it was pretty much inevitable, given that at the time the penalty for being a "false" prophet (from the Romans' perspective, not ours) was death. Jesus being killed was the plan all along - and plus, it was also the plan that He would get resurrected, so his death didn't mean much. After all, killing someone is such a bad thing because then they're dead and it's permanent, but if you know they're going to get resurrected in a few days anyway, it's not so much of a big deal. It's like stealing something and then giving it back. In that context it's not hard at all to think of a worse crime to commit against your enemy.

So here we have an omniscient, omnipotent being, setting up a human society so that, by their own rules, they have to commit a "crime" which, actually, has no real long-term repercussions to Him. Then, He blames the society, and implies that they were evil enemies of God, for doing exactly what He planned to happen. Somehow this seems a little unfair to me.

[Crazyjayde]

The first time I held the bible in my hand and began perusing through the most important excerpts of the religion, I just could not bare the amount of inconsistencies and contradictions that were comprised in this manuscript alone. Even if you believe in God or not, the "sacred words" in which you place your faith so much are man-made and have been distorted and filtered many times throughout history.

JJTrix, don't take what I'm gonna say wrongly, I'm just trying to express the reason behind why your arguments have been miscomprehended.

I could be much more inclined to what you defend if you could actually disregard the bible as a guideline to your faith and back your beliefs through rational knowledge or at least philosophical arguments. The problem is you seem to adhere to an older version of faith defended through fideism which causes questions directed to you to be left unanswered. All in all, there seems to be a unbridgeable gap between faith and reason in your religious mentality. It would greatly help if you could detach yourself from a traditional viewpoint of your faith and become an independent thinker for distinguishing between what the Catholic Church has wrote and what truly makes sense to you in christianity.

[JJTrixX]

You say that some people choose not to believe in God. Would you say that these people choose not to find a reason to believe in God?

Yes. If I and thousands of others can find a reason to believe in God, so can you. You choose not to.

I don't see why you brushed off this question so hastily. Could you explain your answer?

I answered this question in another question asked by Cavernio:
"And the follow-up, how can people who only know half of God say they know God just as much as you do if Jesus matters so much to being loved by God?"

(My response)
There is no "half of God" to know. You either know God or you don't. They are liars. It says so in the scriptures:

“Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” 1 John 2:22-23


Jews don't believe Jesus Christ to be the Son of God. Therefore, they do not know God, the father.

To whom is this comment directed?

Everyone, for we are all sinners.

I could claim that the Spaghetti God brought the universe into being, loves me, and deserves constant praise. What (aside from scientific research about the origin of the universe) gives my claim less credence than those of someone with a different set of beliefs?

You could NOT make such a claim for you don't believe it to be so. You would be lying if you said otherwise.

[Reincarnate]

lol

[qqwref]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

You could NOT make such a claim for you don't believe it to be so. You would be lying if you said otherwise.

You're just saying "If you say something and don't believe it you are lying". That's true by definition. There's nothing stopping someone from lying about their beliefs, though!

[Reincarnate]

I'll ask again because you dodged it the first time

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

Why do you think God exists? Because you feel it? Do you think things are true just because you feel it?

[JJTrixX]

Originally Posted by Crazyjayde

It would greatly help if you could detach yourself from a traditional viewpoint of your faith and become an independent thinker for distinguishing between what the Catholic Church has wrote and what truly makes sense to you in christianity.

The Catholic Church did not write the Bible. Why do you think it's called the "Catholic" church and not the "Christian" church? The Catholic church does not follow the scriptures of the Bible. Instead, they contradict it in several areas. They fall under the doctrine and authority of the priests and the Vatican, rather than the authority of God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Reincarnate
Why do you think God exists? Because you feel it? Do you think things are true just because you feel it?


For you to assume "I think God exists" would make me an agnostic atheist such as yourself, would it not?

I know God exists.

[Crazyjayde]

I'm sorry, I have posted in a hurry and made confusion. Please replace "catholic" with "christian" and answer to a question for once.

[HalfStep]

I think ya'll getting trolled. Just saying.

[Reincarnate]

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

For you to assume "I think God exists" would make me an agnostic atheist such as yourself, would it not?

I know God exists.

... huh? Rephrase what you are trying to say

Originally Posted by HalfStep

I think ya'll getting trolled. Just saying.

Probably. I refuse to believe someone's brains can be addled this hard.

[JJTrixX]

Originally Posted by Crazyjayde

I'm sorry, I have posted in a hurry and made confusion. Please replace "catholic" with "christian" and answer to a question for once.

You asked no question to begin with.

[hi19hi19]

Yo I just want to go on record saying the Flying Spaghetti Monster has done way more for my life than any other omniscient being has.

[Reincarnate]

This is not a hard question: You say you know God exists. How do you know?

[Crazyjayde]

I'm more or less referring to those by saying that you don't answer to questions but rather dodge them:

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

You could NOT make such a claim for you don't believe it to be so. You would be lying if you said otherwise.

Originally Posted by JJTrixX

For you to assume "I think God exists" would make me an agnostic atheist such as yourself, would it not?

I know God exists.

This goes back to what I've said earlier about the faith you defend not being eligible to reason. I'd like you to express your opinions on my original post, and to explain to me your viewpoint on how you consider reason and faith, and if reason can be used as a way to reinforce faith. (existence of God)