Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

[leonid]

Take it out. The problem with CC is that it is inconsistent with the rest of the system (and the rest of all the vsrgs) in terms of when to reward and when to punish. It allows players to split chords into disastrous degrees and still get marvs, and at the same time also drops fuck all if they hit three notes out of a quad perfectly and miss one note. Lower the judge option if you want sm to be more forgiving towards mashing. Spread a quad into four notes 1pixel away from one another and suddenly you are playing a different game. It makes zero sense. CC is an objectively wrong mechanic. Remember what GENRE we are talking about. It should reward accuracy and consistency. Nothing else matters

[DossarLX ODI]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the phenomenon of having the "color gimmick" and how it's basically a way to bypass chord cohesion. For example, place one 4th note, and then three more 4th notes after it and make the BPM something stupid like 1 million and put it back to normal after (this creates a quad with no chord cohesion). Not even mentioning accuracy or consistency, being able to create the same pattern two different ways but having to register it differently is more problematic in my eyes.

[lurker]

you and leonid both thought of that and that's honestly a way better reason than anything i had thought of before

[Ristyy]

just make it an option

[MinaciousGrace]

the issue isnt whether or not cc should be removed its whether to scale or not scale down the additional points in each chord after removal to retain the same point distribution of files before/after


for the record:
cc is being removed and it will not be optional
dp is being removed and it will not be optional unless you theme it back in, in which case why stop there just go full retard and use sm6 scoring for +9 points for each mine you don't hit

I shouldn't even be spending time arguing why further fracturing the community by giving players a myriad of options for playing, which are at best stupid and at worst objectively wrong (as leonid has pointed out), is stupid and irresponsible

if you don't care about scores being comparable and think "wow more options is objectively better" then just fuck off and play j2l1 sm5default with nofail 6x nojumps added mines super shuffle noholds and haste mod

the important part of that is the "fuck off" part

this entire community and more importantly everything that it has generated, which you are an active recipient of, has only arisen because a group of players came together and agreed upon a consensus for set of defined rules for what constitutes valid score comparison

it is literally the foundational principle of the community-- to make any argument in any direction invoking "who cares just let people do whatever they want" is automatically invalid and you can feel free to go on reddit and co-ruminate with the other people there on how cmods are cheating and the like

if any of you ever want to see a functional leaderboard and scores/stats tracking site then you all have to adhere to a single standard of scoring anyway

[leonid]

Don't scale anything; treat quad as if you hit four notes. As mentioned before, you can simulate a "quad" by putting four notes really close together. IMO the actual quad and the simulated quad should count the same way

[MinaciousGrace]

and let me be clear the reason dp and cc aren't optional isn't because I'm vehemently opposed to the concepts in principle (which I am, but that isn't the reason)

the reason is because I'm not writing separate calculators and/or replay systems and/or scoring systems and then making those systems interact functionally with each other just so some of you can feel like special snowflakes

this isnt osumania where "chord cohesion" is going to be some fucking retarded score multiplier mod hahahahaha!!!! great system real sense logic!!!

i'm not making more work for myself when i'm already thanklessly doing everything in the first place just because some of you cry about change when, and this is important, none of you would fucking notice or care after a month of play anyway (unless you just blindmash handstream in which case idk either stop blindmashing handstream or quit not my problem)

so lets keep it on topic and idk at least try to formulate some sort of argument beyond "but that's what i want"

[MinaciousGrace]

Originally Posted by leonid

Don't scale anything; treat quad as if you hit four notes. As mentioned before, you can simulate a "quad" by putting four notes really close together. IMO the actual quad and the simulated quad should count the same way

for the record i initially came up with the idea of scaling for a number of reasons but after a lengthy amount of testing and thinking about how it affects numerous systems and further planned development i am leaning towards unscaled

also it took you like what 10 minutes to formulate literally the strongest argument for unscaling that i've seen thus far (and the only legitimate one other than my own reasons)

smh i mean i guess this is the community that took a half decade to figure out mirror isnt cheating

[Chocille]

chord cohesion sucks

you don't get good with chord cohesion
see how all the top bms players play?
they dont need that, because bms made them good
bms doesn't use chord cohesion

now get good and stop complaining

[Ristyy]

well dang i guess if it's not an option, i'd lean towards having each note count as a whole note; especially since as mentioned you can make 4 separate notes count as 4 whole notes already. I don't have anything to add other than what's already been said :\

[choof]

the removal of chord cohesion breaks a few chart ideas I've had

rip

[Reincarnate]

I don't even know what this is and I don't really play anymore but whatever CC is it seems like it's way out of place mechanically

[leonid]

it only made sense back in the early 2000s when charts were not as spammy as now and mostly played on a pad, so each chord is considered "a move", and thus counted as one note. It makes no sense now because for this community stepmania is basically 4 key bms

[AutotelicBrown]

Originally Posted by leonid

Don't scale anything; treat quad as if you hit four notes. As mentioned before, you can simulate a "quad" by putting four notes really close together. IMO the actual quad and the simulated quad should count the same way

You don't even need to go that far and use examples that happen more often in practice. For instance the point difference between a [12][34] jumptrill to a 1234 roll should be only related to how hard each one is to time, but with scaled points the latter is worth twice as much from the outset. The faster it gets, the closer the roll is to simulated jumps which approaches the degenerate scoring situation you mentioned.

Funnily enough that difference is balanced a bit with chord cohesion by the fact you can't rush a single column in jumptrills, but I digress.

From my time playing without chord cohesion, I don't think not scaled vs. scaled ends up being that different, but from a design perspective not scaled makes way more sense.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Remove it

[MinaciousGrace]

Originally Posted by AutotelicBrown

From my time playing without chord cohesion, I don't think not scaled vs. scaled ends up being that different, but from a design perspective not scaled makes way more sense.

it probably averages out to being even, unscaled just magnifies any advantage/disadvantage by a little bit

i.e. if you were to gain slightly from the removal of chord cohesion because you hit everything as intended you will gain slightly (when compared to scaled points, ranging from nothing to about +1% in outliers, and maybe +0.2% on avg), and if you were punished because you are an irreverent masher you will get punished a little more (figures are about the same but negatives).

pretty much every chordjack file is just going to be flat out harder no matter how good you are, and honestly i think most people might find dense hs harder instead of slightly easier

but like I said on the average it pretty much makes no difference, unscaled just slightly exaggerates the effects of outliers compared to scaled points

[choof]

anyone in favor of keeping chord cohesion is a fucking baddie

[Chocille]

Originally Posted by choof

anyone in favor of keeping chord cohesion is a fucking baddie

youre sooo right haha i second this definitely

[shakesoda]

Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace

why stop there just go full retard and use sm6 scoring for +9 points for each mine you don't hit

I asked for feedback on this and received none, so I just went with what I had. I don't know what beef you've got with me, but jfc you could at least talk to me about it.

[mwes]

Originally Posted by shakesoda

I asked for feedback on this and received none, so I just went with what I had. I don't know what beef you've got with me, but jfc you could at least talk to me about it.

As much as OK_mine is stupid and against the nature of vsrg, i would like this discussion not be held in this thread.