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Old 09-25-2019, 01:17 PM   #21
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

@psychoangel691 i'll submit a bunch right now!!! (laughs) i actually always wanted to... i understand devonin's idea of not "wasting a song". i noticed there are "versions" of files that make them easier or harder on the site. itd be nice if there were BABY versions of the files that had "vBABY" at the end (laughs again)... you're right about action being more important, i kinda just made the thread to see what people's thoughts were... if we're all settled on it being a good idea we should act right away!!!

looking at other rhythm games as a model, it seems even pump it up (which doesn't have a guaranteed 'beginner' mode like ddr) has a lot of difficulty 1 or 2 charts... a lot of these are probably so people can do COOL DANCING on them, and isn't a part of the "hardcore" thing, in many ways it'd be nice to bring a similar ethos here. though, it certainly doesn't need to be anything more than "a niche, if people want it". they can also be charts for entirely new, "calm" songs, if there is an issue with charts feeling like a "reverse-dump" file

i sympathise with rapta's anecdote about his nephew greatly... admittedly i wanted to play some of the charts that people made of my songs but they are way too difficult hahaha... this is my fault because i use way too many notes in my songs, though. if i made a very simple song i'd like to play it some day
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Old 09-25-2019, 01:20 PM   #22
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

You gotta figure, this is basically a hobby site at this point and with no one being paid to make content they're going to gravitate towards stepping genres and in the difficulty/style they like. I'll try to put together a few to pop into this batch too since I've been off the stepping train anyway.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:31 PM   #23
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

Can attempt to make a few songs in the level 1 range, but I simply don't really know how to. Do you just step the occasional 8th? Should the file only be like 40 seconds? Is PR and consistency important when you are dealing with so little notes? etc etc.
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Old 09-25-2019, 02:58 PM   #24
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

I definitely think the main goal for extremely low difficulty songs should be "short"

The legacy songs that are multiple minutes long are boring even for players that new. Level 1-3 songs are for building basic competence with how rhythm games work, and you shouldn't need to do that very long to move past needing songs that easy.

I'm going to step a couple 1-3s today/this weekend and I'm not planning on having them much longer than 1 minute if I can at all help it.
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Old 09-25-2019, 03:48 PM   #25
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

I've made dozens of files in the less-than-Power to 10 range.

The problem is the submission cap. I have five slots every two months (when I remember to submit at all) and it feels kind of bad using one of those on a file that took 20 minutes of work compared to something I put 5 hours into.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:00 PM   #26
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

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Originally Posted by M0nkeyz View Post
Can attempt to make a few songs in the level 1 range, but I simply don't really know how to. Do you just step the occasional 8th? Should the file only be like 40 seconds? Is PR and consistency important when you are dealing with so little notes? etc etc.
I'd probably say they generally should be a 1:30 or less in length because when you're stepping so little in the song it can be very boring and drag on.

Consistency is even more important if you're targeting band new players it's going to be way more confusing if it's constantly changing up.

As per PR, it's always something we like to see in a file and generally feels "right" but I mean if you're stepping bass hits it's kinda different than if you're stepping some piano sounds.
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Old 09-25-2019, 04:15 PM   #27
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

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Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
I've made dozens of files in the less-than-Power to 10 range.

The problem is the submission cap. I have five slots every two months (when I remember to submit at all) and it feels kind of bad using one of those on a file that took 20 minutes of work compared to something I put 5 hours into.
Don't worry cornman, I'll burn submissions on easy songs, since I can't really make anything good over a 40 anyway!
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Old 09-25-2019, 05:29 PM   #28
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

Also I want to point out that I've submitted an extremely easy file in the past, one that I thought was rather well-constructed, and only one judge gave it a passing rating:


The National Anthem of Japan (hi19hi19) - [?] 3/10
- I really don't know about accepting charts that have a very low NPS, this one weighing in at approximately .67.
- It just really becomes questionable at this point to what novice players will enjoy, I certainly don't believe they should be limited to just slow music and 4th notes.


The National Anthem of Japan
5/10
- Any file with a lower TPS than Power is pushing it. If you want users to listen to a relaxing song, just let them listen to it -- don't have all that empty space.
- The file was easy to follow.


The National Anthem of Japan
pros:
- It's pretty good technically, I guess! There wasn't much difficulty involved in stepping this chart, though.
cons:
- Feels like we're waiting for something that never happens in the song...
note: 6.5/10


The National Athem of Japan (hi19hi19)
7/10
- looks fine as an easy file




So after getting these responses I basically gave up on submitting <1 NPS files, even though I think the game needs them. I think that "too low NPS" only becomes a valid criticism when there are long stretches of zero arrows on the screen at default size and 1x scroll rate. Until then, having files where there is only ever a single note you have to think about is what many beginner players require.
Unless more judges are exposed to the reality that files like Free Space are still too hard for some new players, I think you can just expect comments like these.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:15 PM   #29
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

Quote:
Originally Posted by devonin View Post

It's partly about not wanting to "waste" an mp3 we have permission for on a song that almost nobody will play, and maybe a certain element of professional pride in work that makes people not want to make something incredibly simple and boring by the standards of 99% of the active playerbase.
It goes without saying that this is also a mentality that should not only disappear, but is also toxic to the lower level players of the game (not saying you're an advocate of this or that you're the reason why I'm saying it, it just reminded me of it).

Players who are newer to the game deserve really good songs too. At any point, a stepartist can easily take their own approach to a chart and make an extremely toned down, easily accented version and make it a [Beginner] difficulty or something of the like.

As far as previous batches, the reason behind not getting things accepted likely coincides with the fact that anyone can really make a file like this with minimal effort and as a result, it's an easy way to get your submission cap from 2 to 5, which can then be lead to an inundation of low-quality files in the future (this is of course divorced from the fact that people submitting might also be R1 Simfile Author already, just a theory).

It might be necessary to institute a contingent requirement for achieving the R1 Simfile Author title beyond simply getting a file in game, because we cannot have users being left uncredited for their efforts.

EDIT: for clarification, i'm not saying it should take more than one file to get the title either - I'm saying that the file submitted might need to hit some sort of standard to be qualifying as worthy for the title.

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Old 09-25-2019, 07:40 PM   #30
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

Quote:
Originally Posted by hi19hi19 View Post
Also I want to point out that I've submitted an extremely easy file in the past, one that I thought was rather well-constructed, and only one judge gave it a passing rating:


The National Anthem of Japan (hi19hi19) - [?] 3/10
- I really don't know about accepting charts that have a very low NPS, this one weighing in at approximately .67.
- It just really becomes questionable at this point to what novice players will enjoy, I certainly don't believe they should be limited to just slow music and 4th notes.


The National Anthem of Japan
5/10
- Any file with a lower TPS than Power is pushing it. If you want users to listen to a relaxing song, just let them listen to it -- don't have all that empty space.
- The file was easy to follow.


The National Anthem of Japan
pros:
- It's pretty good technically, I guess! There wasn't much difficulty involved in stepping this chart, though.
cons:
- Feels like we're waiting for something that never happens in the song...
note: 6.5/10


The National Athem of Japan (hi19hi19)
7/10
- looks fine as an easy file




So after getting these responses I basically gave up on submitting <1 NPS files, even though I think the game needs them. I think that "too low NPS" only becomes a valid criticism when there are long stretches of zero arrows on the screen at default size and 1x scroll rate. Until then, having files where there is only ever a single note you have to think about is what many beginner players require.
Unless more judges are exposed to the reality that files like Free Space are still too hard for some new players, I think you can just expect comments like these.

This had to be a pretty long time ago though, we've not had a 4 judge system for quite a while and there used to be that crazy mindset about files in the past that I've pushed to do away with for years.
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yeah I'mma go for the Rave7 route she's just perfect, stiff on the top, thin in the middle, and has a BIG THICC END that I can just jack on all night UwU best girl
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:50 PM   #31
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

I would agree that there needs to be more modern easy files, but I would say 1-30 range. Slower than power I don't think is much helpful. It's slow enough to get the settings how a player feels most comfortable. The average difficulty has increased considerably in the last few years, but there is a silent majority of non-forum goers that would enjoy more modern files in the 1-30 range I would say.
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Old 09-25-2019, 07:57 PM   #32
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

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Slower than power I don't think is much helpful.
This is just objectively not true.
Source: trying to introduce people like my mom to the game. Trust me, we need easier files.

EDIT- to elaborate, what a lot of truly beginner players need is time to look at the arrow, then down at their fingers, then back up at the arrow to get the timing when it reaches the receptor.
There needs to be enough blank space on either side of the arrow to allow for this for the first few games before the muscle memory of which finger = which arrow can kick in
Having grown up typing and gaming all our lives, we might take for granted the fact that finger -> key muscle memory is actually not that easy to develop.
You can see this in both young children learning electronics and in older people who aren't used to technology.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:35 PM   #33
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

I can do some X1 playtesting later, but as someone said earlier, if there's only 1 note on a screen at a time, they have X seconds to react to it either way.
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Old 09-25-2019, 09:05 PM   #34
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

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I can do some X1 playtesting later, but as someone said earlier, if there's only 1 note on a screen at a time, they have X seconds to react to it either way.
Power is at the NPS where as soon as one arrow reaches the receptors, another one appears. So it's basically at the "one arrow per screen" but just barely (I do like that the final 3 notes of Power just exceed that NPS too, climax theory in a beginner file? lol)

I know this probably sounds silly to experienced players, but less than 1 note on the screen at a time is nice because it allows someone to check their hand positioning on the keyboard prior to a note appearing, and some blank space after the arrow passes the receptors gives time register the judgment after the note has been hit. A little breathing room to mentally cover "okay, I missed because I was supposed to use my index finger and instead I used my middle finger" before the next arrow appears helps a lot.
Power also changes arrow every note, which is a lot harder patterning than repeating the same note many times in a row. Having say, up arrow four times in a row allows a new player to learn from messing up the first few and build confidence by figuring out to hit the later ones before the pattern changes.




In my personal opinion, an ideal set of beginner files would be two or three 60-80 second long songs of different genres stepped as described above. Stuff in the 0.4-0.5 NPS range (which is noticeably less NPS than Power's 0.59NPS) with more forgiving patterns than Power has.
Then at least 4-5 more files in the Power to Trip to the Moon (0.6 - 1.0 NPS) range, and many more modern files in the 2-30 difficulty range.
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Old 09-25-2019, 11:03 PM   #35
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Default Re: request: EXTREMELY EASY songs batch (difficulty 1 songs and lower)

I've planned to send in a song easier than Power, for this batch.
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