So let's talk about QED stepfiles. (Let's talk about StepMania actually.)

[Phlegmatism]

I don't know what this is but I'd never play that file until those purple notes become yellow notes.

edit: maybe for pad endurance practice

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

LCP 3 has gotten some of the best reviews I've seen for a while. All kinds of players said they enjoyed, so I'm glad you shared that. All of this really has to be redefined if this community is to expand again.

Yeah I saw some dude on twitter who never goes on KBO or FFR playing LCP3.

[Patashu]

I like the methodology you used going into making this file, what I don't like is how boring the song is, plus the amount of time it takes before it gets going. The other files you mentioned all get right into the action.

[ddrxero64]

Yea, it's extremely hard to create a file to appeal to all three styles. I thought about it, and this is what I got.

Because pad is the easiest, you'll have to appeal to the higher end. This end is usually covered by hardcore ITG players, who pass 10 footers on DDR easily. This is where most of the crowd lies in nowadays, so the stream is crucial.

Which is where index comes in. Index players like stream, but they do enjoy jumps too when placed correctly. If too many are placed, it doesn't become paddable. Or at least, it loses the fun factor for pad. It will never be a hardcore index file, because then the skill level becomes out of range for new players.

For spread, both of these are easy. So the only option left is to make it a good MA file. Since the difficulty is very easy, length is important to make it harder to AAA or AAAA. Not too long though, because even though ITG players enjoy stamina they get tired too. It has to be hard enough where it's long, somewhat difficult to AAA, fun to play, and covers middle ground for skill level.

This is a song I found on short notice, I'm glad I was able to step it that quickly. But I do agree, the beginning starts off slow. Compared to Quasar though, the song choice is a little more interesting. A lot of new players seem to enjoy the easy beginning such as Quasar. It's a really difficult thing to look at it from such a far distance to include all styles. I hate this file in terms of fun, it's decent but I love harder and more chaotic index files, such as Lawn Wake files.

This is also the attempt at one chart. More charts could be made yes, but the less amount of charts that have to be made to cover the general audience the better. It's also more impressive to have people refer to one chart rather than one simfile with multiple charts.

The length was annoying, and I didn't want to cut so people could hear the whole song. Experimental stuff.

I hate that colored note. But if you listen to that part, it's a little more delayed than the second time. The offset becomes different, so I just took out the beats and placed them using the whole 96th and 192th steps.. I really didn't want to go into making the color right, but yea I understand. It pisses me off too lol.

[Patashu]

if you want to appeal to pad, index and spread players why not make three charts xd

also given it is a generic techno song I suspect that the coloured notes are not necessary at all

[Chariot]

I typically only browse around at the discussions here, but this one seemed really interesting, so I thought I would chime in. I originally started out in Dance with Intensity way back in 2003, which (as far back as I can remember) didn't even have an editor; my friends and I spent an immemorable amount of time in Notepad putting arrows to video game music. The stepfiles were, by just about anyone's standards, terrible and trashy, but we had loads of fun. It absolutely was the draw of being able to "play" our favorite songs that we loved so much about it. I was never really part of any online community; in fact, I've only really been part of one in the past, and that was many years ago as well (and VGM related). Back in 2003, there really wasn't much of a standard about a "right" way to do a file. Sure, we all knew when a file was offbeat, but even that didn't bother a lot of us. I imagine that some people still aren't bothered by it now, though I gather by how the times have changed that the number is far fewer.

I agree with a lot of things said in this thread. But, that's me.

Over time, I began to see more "technical" files come about - and this may have been due to the advent of Stepmania - and I began to appreciate the relation of certain patterns to phrases of music and began incorporating them in my own stepfiles. But as files became more "technical", they became, to me, less enjoyable. But that's really where all of this idealism about "to each his own" in terms of "fun factor" falls apart; the fact that "to each his own" inherently brings us to where we are now, not away from it. You see, many people now have chosen to be "technical" over including "fun factor", and just as they really have no right to call our methods wrong, we really have no right to call theirs the same. For example:

Originally Posted by lnick

I mean, if a simfile you made was fun for you and maybe fun for other people too, then why should someone else have the power to tell you otherwise?

They have to power to do this because it is what they really think. As someone said in this thread, consider Stepmania a form of art (and it really is, in a way); a person crafts a stepfile in a way she thinks is appropriate, whatever that entails. She may not care if it's "technical", or she may not care if it's "fun", but what matters to her is the end result she is striving for. Now, in the end, one group of people will think one thing about it, and another group of people will think something entirely different. There really isn't a file that exists that everyone thinks is fun. I guarantee you. And that's just the nature of people. We all have different opinions. And, just like any form of art, someone may look at your painting and say "Man, that's terrible" and someone may say "That's absolutely amazing" and both are within their rightful opinions.

I think that, in a fashion similar to the way we try to call stepfiles "right" or "wrong", we try to reach some higher level of appreciation and cultural awareness by saying that all art is "good" and that it's only a person's taste and opinion about art that make them *think* it is "bad". This is a silly argument because its root is in establishing some sort of fact about an outlet based purely on taste and opinion. If you are behind this argument, then you have to be able to honestly argue that every single song in the world is good, and every single movie, and every single game, and every single other creative outlet; at that point, we've essentially established that "bad" does not exist. Sure, "good" and "bad" are based on taste and opinion, but taste and opinion are valid arguments because they are what a person truly feels about something, and that is what matters in a creative world. So, you can't beat comments like

Originally Posted by lnick

your simfiles are bad, the simfiles you play and think are fun are bad

because they are the very territory of the creative world. And really, it's the nature of people, to be critical, blunt, and say things that offend you (even if it wasn't their goal to offend you). I don't mean to sound pessimistic - that's not what this is about - it's just that people are like that. There's no way to change it. When you get a group of people together that want to make a pack of stepfiles, they have to like the stepfiles that they're putting in. It's only fair; it's their pack. They have to be satisfied with its contents in some way. A different set of people will accept a different type of files because they will have different judges. Apparently FFR has some really strict guidelines about how "technical" a file is. It's their game. They have to like what goes into it. It's impossible to try and achieve a sort of Utopian "everything goes and step anything you want" because let's face it, none of us want every single file ever made to be released in the places we go to for some form of "quality control", which I think someone mentioned in this thread. Very few people here can argue that they want that. Otherwise, why not just go to the Stepmania file database?

Anyway, the reason I've put a lot of things in quotes, like technical, fun factor, good and bad is because those are all subjective terms as well - yes, even "technical". With only 4 places to put arrows, true pitch relevancy and even the proper way to layer percussion (does anyone think about THAT?) goes out the window, and you make do with what you have. To some people, that interpretation is different. But since we've already established that something is left up to interpretation, that means that there isn't really a "correct" way because interpretation is subjective.

I apologize if I'm repeating some things that have already been said, because I only read some of the posts in this thread, but I thought I would just give my point of view. In a way, I don't know where the original post was going, though I do really like the reminiscent quality of it and, again, I agree with many of the things said; stepfile artists have gone away from stepping levels that "play well" and have instead moved to making things "technically sound". I felt like there was some need in the post to fix things regarding how the community views stepfiles, but really, the community's take on files is like any democracy's take on any issue: some people will agree, some people won't. It's true, really; you can't make everyone happy. The best you can do is try to find a group of people that agree with the way you think and enjoy your similar tastes and opinions with them.

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Patashu

if you want to appeal to pad, index and spread players why not make three charts xd

also given it is a generic techno song I suspect that the coloured notes are not necessary at all

Oh trust me, that first slow down is very weird. The second one keeps the beat, but the first one shifts the offset quite a bit. I can send you the song if you want later (going to sleep soon, i know) and you can find it yourself. The BPM is 140.625 I believe, I'll leave it up to you to find an offset. This is if you want to check it out, maybe it's just me. But there is a significant delay.

Originally Posted by Chariot

<The Truth>

The words you typed couldn't have been any truer. At this point, it's whether these groups are willing to agree to disagree. It's ok to have an opinion, but it's not okay to put someone down because of it. QED puts our files down, we put his down, vicious cycle, etc. I think if people could learn to ignore files they don't like then the community could be happier.

/optimism

This will never happen. As long as trolls exist, these negative posts will remain. It's up to the loudest group, whether or not they make up most of the community, to determine the fate of the rest. And I use the word "loudest" loosely. Outspoken users, people who have somehow gained some sort of forum respect, etc. Trolls will live on, but if they make up the community then the community won't.

When the community is balanced with open minded members and close minded pessimists, there might be a chance to grow. Not until then.

[Chariot]

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

It's ok to have an opinion, but it's not okay to put someone down because of it.

Oh I agree, though I'm not sure it was what I was advocating in my post (and you may not be saying I was either). Of course it's not right to put down a person, as in "you'd have to be stupid to make a stepfile like this". It's also best if you don't call the stepfile itself stupid either. However, I find myself doing it. I'll admit it. I played something today (whose name I can't remember, and maybe that's for the better) that I raged about for a good 30 seconds in profile chat. I totally had my reasons for disliking it, but I wasn't very tactful about it. At the same time, I believe that people's opinions should be heard because people feel a need to voice their opinions. I know that if I shared a file of mine in this thread and 100 people played it, not all 100 would like it. If 70 of them disliked it and said "It SUCKED because blah blah blah," I wouldn't be particularly hurt because I know it's only other people's opinions and I know that the most valuable opinion about my work is mine. At the same time people could learn to be more gentle, people could also learn to be tougher.

Obviously, tact can improve the quality of any community; I'm not too familiar with Stepmania's crowd, but I've found that people in general can be very brutally honest, to the point where it becomes less constructive and more destructive, and that people in general could benefit from some tact. However, like you said, it's all optimism and wishful thinking.

[lnick]

I'm coming back to this thread as soon as I get a chance to smoke again.

[FFR4EVA_00]

what the **** are you people doing

[Jousway]

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

It really has nothing to do with OD's members, other than the bar wasn't raised in terms of difficulty and most of the files were enjoyable to play. OD 3rd Anime Mix is my favorite to this day, it is legitimately the first pack I've ever downloaded to play on SMO back in August of 2009.

Also Jousway, you just said OD's files were worse than QED's. Who made you an expert on stepping? You're no worse than the people who judge on a technical aspect. We're arguing that neither judging is right, not that QED's view is right. You're really not arguing for the topic at hand, more for one of QED's fanboys. I'm sure you would've been up on that panel preparing files for him if he asked you to. Guy flies all the way from Germany just to come to an SM workshop in Boston. Really sad, gotta give him props, he can manipulate a situation very well. Needs to learn how to control his emotions though, he couldn't keep his composure when I was around disproving his attacks on the community.

ddrxero I have taken an look at the way people step files for like an year and an half, I got loads of free time and I asked people about their opinion about these files, what I found really interesting is that most of these people said that the new OD files were worse than the old ones, thats strange isn't it, and I asked both sides, people that stepped files and people that only played, if you think I sprout a lot of bullshit then believe what you want, I just want to show people the knowlage I obtained the last year and an half by asking people their opinion about files and doing some tests, also if you wonder I didn't include OD1 because it was like an starter pack and even OD selfs say's its an shit pack, OD5 on the other hand is better than QED by far, the reason I said QED is better than the OLD od 2 3 and 4 is because I look at the technical side of the files in both packs, that means these old OD packs and QED packs, I even wonder if you played QED files because you can see that they are better that these old files, because for starters these OD files are old and inaccurate, even OD self prenounses these files bad and old, if you hang around the OD irc and forum more you could see their opinion's about their own files.

edit: you know what, I just explained already everything I found out in these last year and an half and if you people don't care have fun, according to my calculations the stepmania side in FFR will die in 2 to 4 years, oh well I'm an noteskin maker so it doesn't bother me, have fun with dying while not knowing why stepmania is dying.

[3lijah]

I still play QED's stuff to this day. And after seeing this post about it, I didn't really know what to expect in the read lol. Mostly because I didnt pay attention to the community of SM, I just liked to play the game. And it's been that way since 2005, when I first gave interest to SM. So really, QED's song packs were just other song packs to have, and I saw them as very cool and moe songs To give you an example of how oblivious I am to the SM community, I didnt find out about the 4.0 beta until.... about 3 months ago. Yeah, no one else plays this game around me lmao. But its all good, I love SM and I will play it to death, because I do that to all games that I share an interest to.

[Patashu]

Originally Posted by FFR4EVA_00

what the **** are you people doing

poisoning the well. you should look it up

[Jousway]

hey I got an reply from QED asking about his side of the story about what happened on ffr, it was just like I expected

[FFR4EVA_00]

really that's nice don't post it

[lnick]

Originally Posted by Jousway

hey I got an reply from QED asking about his side of the story about what happened on ffr, it was just like I expected

Tell him to message me because i'd like to hear it.

[moches]

just dropping in here to say that this is a really interesting discussion, and I'm enjoying reading everybody's viewpoints on this.

by the way, the biggest problem I see is what Patashu said: Stepmania has lacked a clear central hub where everybody can communicate from the beginning, and so people branched off into all of these subsets of people who know nothing but their own style. personally, I would love to start a multi-site project where each major Stepmania community would submit ten files to a universal pack; this would encourage cooperation and discussion between stepartists and players alike. it's a naive idea and needs some more revising before anybody would actually put it into practice, but it's a start.

[Neviutz]

I have to say, even though I didn't expect it to be, that was sorta interesting to read.


Also:

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

He also has a German guy preparing his files because he isn't good enough to do them himself.

Originally Posted by ddrxero64

Guy flies all the way from Germany just to come to an SM workshop in Boston. Really sad, gotta give him props, he can manipulate a situation very well. Needs to learn how to control his emotions though, he couldn't keep his composure when I was around disproving his attacks on the community.

Interesting stuff you're telling there, sir. Really.

- Neviutz

[ddrxero64]

Originally Posted by Neviutz

Interesting stuff you're telling there, sir. Really.

- Neviutz

It really is, and I will stand by my decision. I don't know who in the world needs an assistant to create simfiles. Please do tell me, what is it that you "prepare" for him that he's unable to do himself? Simfile creating isn't a career, and it isn't one person teaches, especially when they are very misled in their information. I don't even mean the simfiles themselves, setting certain options in SM, referring people to other communities, etc. I'm glad you were able to read this though, I really hope it's given some insight.

If you're going to support someone, support them. But if you're going to do their job for them, you might as well make them look incapable of doing it themselves.

Originally Posted by Jousway

hey I got an reply from QED asking about his side of the story about what happened on ffr, it was just like I expected

Wonder why he PM'd you and not anyone else...

Also Jousway, a year and a half is nice. Some people have been here 4-5 years and they don't act half as arrogant as you. Please, wiki arrogance. And while you're at it, wiki prediction. It's a little different than guarantee or fact, but I'm sure you'll understand it after reading articles from a source that is edited everyday by common users like us.

Originally Posted by moches

personally, I would love to start a multi-site project where each major Stepmania community would submit ten files to a universal pack; this would encourage cooperation and discussion between stepartists and players alike. it's a naive idea and needs some more revising before anybody would actually put it into practice, but it's a start.

Already being done. It's actually my last project to be honest. Multi site project, yes. Based on simfiles, no. It's a little bigger than that. It's actually not guaranteed to succeed at all. But I hope it does. It would be nice to bring something new to Stepmania, something's that's never been done in SMO history. We'll see how it plays out though, it could probably just fail.

[Lain_Iwakura]

this is how i feel about QED at this point in time

1) his style of stepping isn't wrong
2) when he pushes his style of stepping as the only right way of stepping, that's wrong
3) doesn't take criticism, that's wrong but its his choice
4) his style of stepping would (maybe) be more acceptable if it was judged under the notion that he was stepping 'beginner anime scoring stepfiles', or anime simfiles that were made for scoring and not necessarily to be musically accurate or even fun (this however brings up the issue of difficulty of a normal scoring simfile (a ballad for cetaka) when his files aren't difficult in comparison)
5) his attitude, but again that's just him

[Chariot]

Originally Posted by Lain_Iwakura

3) doesn't take criticism, that's wrong but its his choice

I have a question about this, which I hope anyone will answer, not just you, Lain: what good does criticism really do? It's to my understanding that criticism is basically one person sharing his opinion with another, right? If you took someone's criticism that your file was... say, too easy, too hard, not technical enough, or not fun enough, and you changed it accordingly, you would then be altering it so that a set of people who disliked it now liked it, but in the process, a set of people who liked it will now dislike it... right?

The thing about criticism in art is that it only really helps people achieve a standard set by whoever is critiquing it, and whoever shares that opinion. If somebody is happy with the way her file turned out, then that person doesn't really need to change anything if they don't see it fit to, because doing so only compromises her own style and expression. Sure, we can throw around the cliché that it helps a person "grow", but all it really does is help a person please a bigger audience. If you want to please the most amount of people, then you should take people's criticism, but if you want to have fun and express yourself, then I argue that you really don't need to listen to the opinion of anyone else, because it's just that: they're opinion. It's no greater than yours.

Imagine if Van Gogh, Rembrandt, or Picasso listened to all the people that told them their art could have done _____ differently. It would have only made their art "better" by a different set of people's standards; you may not have appreciated them as much. Or, if you're not into paintings so much: imagine any music artist changing their style based on what's popular. Oh, wait, music artists do that all the time, don't they - and isn't it disappointing when they do? Don't you feel that the artist had something unique that you really liked before? Then you are in that group (that is most likely the minority) that can appreciate their different sound. Similarly, what if all the stepfiles adhered to just one rule, and they were all stepped the same? Then, we might as well ask only one person to step them. Stepfiles are great because they come out differently depending on who is creating them.

I mean sure, we have standards now, and those include all the basics like "get the BPM right, sync the arrows with the music and don't make everything a quad", and I'd hope that most people would at least adhere to those, but even those are really only standards made up by people about how an open-ended game "should be played". To be honest with you, I've played the Big Blue in this game over 100 times now, and I don't find it fun despite the fact that it's "technically sound". On that same note, I found Hellbeat oddly enjoyable, and if you asked me which of the two I'd rather play, I'd pick Hellbeat any day. By most people's standards (even the ones I listed there), Hellbeat is garbage, but I found it more fun than some "sound" levels.

Yes, if you put down random arrows that have no relation to any sound played in the song whatsoever, you may consider getting some advice on the very basics, because there are basics. But at a certain point - especially for someone who has such a following for their stepfiles, like QED - I'm really just wondering what criticism improves, and more importantly, for whom.