TWG XIV Emergency Voting

[evilbutterfly]

I don't see why we didn't just do Inf 2 instead of all this tribal stuff. Everybody loved Infiltration, and you promised number 2 when you came back, and instead we get this tribal thing that nobody liked. But I shan't complain, that'd be selfish of me. But I must say, there's been way too much drama over this silly game.

[lightdarkness]

TWG: We Know Drama

[GuidoHunter]

I completely agree with Kefit.

chardish explained this game to me before we came back from Lent, and I was all for it. This game sounded awesome, but looking at how it played out I see no reason for it not to take the same turn if we restarted. The premise is good and it would work extremely well but people just don't want to play the fun way.

And Tass, c'mon. You worked for half a night and want credit for an entire game. Sure, victory seemed at hand, but c'mon, we didn't even get through Day 1. Quit whining about your pip and let's just move on to the next game.

And eb, chardish was so excited about this game that he wanted to play it before Infiltration II. He didn't forget. =)

--Guido

http://andy.mikee385.com

[flypie743]

I think this picture pretty much sums up this whole thing.
*

*image stolen from eric's LJ, thx eric <4

[Kilgamayan]

flypie, don't troll, please.

[Demon_Of_The_Comet]

Hey WTF why am i cut out?
This was supposed to be my first TWG
>_<

Thanks a lot >_>

[Spheroid]

I'm not going to complain about being cut, because it's not going to change anything, and by the way TWG works in these circumstances, I'd be the first person to go. Anyway, although the game idea was good, people are going to play it in a way that won't work (a.k.a. telling everyone what their tribe is). Really, the only way to make things worse is perfectly balancing the want to go for a standard victory to a tribal victory. The only problem there being that it would take a lot of luck and be difficult to pull off. If someone tries this again sometime, consider making it three tribes, so if everyone finds out each other's tribe, the game won't be completely unbalanced (24 players would be ideal for that).

What I think happened with me in the game was I was one of the only ones to refuse to tell Tasselfoot my tribe. This would've been fine had I been human, but with him in contact with the seer, he figured out my role. I had some ideas on how to defend myself, but I took too long thinking about them and lost my chance to argue. Ld and Hans then contacted me, saying they needed my help to even have a chance for a Sayban victory. I might have made things worse than they already were by believing it was a trick against me. They could've gotten the names of all the wolves, contacted Tass, and with the back up off the seer, easily gotten a human victory. I didn't realize that with Tass in a garunteed place of victory, that he wanted to get go tribal. Yet all that arguing last night didn't really matter because all the information was already leaked to Tass, and their side had majority after night one. I knew something was up when Kilga was pushing to kill Talisman, but I didn't have anything better to offer, and at the time, I was convinced everyone was split between which victory to go for.

Anyway, enjoy TWG XIV/XV. I'll hope to play next game.

[nforcer06164]

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

As I'm trying to get a TWC ruling on TWG14 counting or not... I'd appreciate holding off on re-starting, or, be willing to change the name to TWG15 if the council so decides.

Um, pardon my asking, but why does it matter? Please don't tell me it's still about a pip.

[Kilgamayan]

Read mead's second page post again.

I seriously doubt we could actually force chardish to add pips to banners, but given three of the TWC members were on the Alderoth team, you can bet we're going to vote as such unless blah has a change in heart.

And if it's all for "just a pip", then what's the harm in adding it? It is, after all, "just a pip".

I'm getting tired of people posting arguments equivalent to "lol, internet" and no one providing any actual legitimate reasons as to why the Alderoth team should not be awarded a victory.

[mead1]

Amen to that Kilga. The whole pip thing boils down to this. We did the work, we should reap the rewards. Everyone is saying that is insignificant, but it really isn't. It is a simple matter of logic. When the pips were first instated, they were to be given to the winning team of a TWG. I think that is still the meaning but I haven't checked recently. If anyone can offer a scenario in which the Alderoth tribe could lose this game, I'll back down and say not another word about it. But until then, I want my damn pip for winning TWG XIV.

[Spheroid]

By the rules, it seems that the Alderoth tribe should get a pip, but it really doesn't seem like they deserve it to me. Really, all that happend was that the Alderoth wolves convinced the Sayban wolves to get a majority, and everyone was told pretty much everyone's tribe. From there, unless some big twist occurs, it's a garunteed win. Plus, Chardish stopped the game for reasons that did not concern the fact that Alderoth had an assured victory. Lastly, the way the game played was much different than any regular TWG could be. I don't believe anyone got a pip for Infiltration (this may not be legit because Infiltration was not titled "TWG"). So anyway, that's my opinion.

[nforcer06164]

There is no guarantee you guys would win. Remember, it was mentioned that we could've lied about our tribe and screwed it all up. I should be angry that I was a seer on the 2nd set of roles and then it got taken away, only to find that the seers were still around, right? Shouldn't I have been upset? After all, I could have received a blue pip if I did things right. But hey, it's a game. I whined playfully, but it was no big deal to me.

So, you guys want a pip? I don't really care myself. The TWC, with three members on Alderoth, will most likely vote in favor so they can have another pip. But I as well as you will always remember that the last rerandomization was flawed, making the game stacked from the start. We'll remember how you got the pip. Most importantly, the way you vote on this will reveal something about your character. Do you believe in fair play? Well, we'll find out soon enough.

Reasons why I don't want to give a pip for this one:

1) I annulled the game. I essentially realized my mistake was with not honestly rerandomizing the roles, and that's why I halted it. The game was started under false pretenses. That's completely not fair.
2) If I give a pip, this means that this pathetic little attempt at trying something different, that lasted barely 24 hours, counts as a TWG, and carries the same weight as any other game. Equality is really at the heart of the matter - I don't want to give this game the same weight as any others. If you're leading 1-0 in the World Series and, by freak coincidence, the other team's hotel burns down in the middle of the night, do you really want to call yourselves "World Series Champions?" Doesn't it feel a tad unmerited? I'd kind of like to forget this whole incident really happened. In my eyes, there were no winners, and I was the only loser.

Regarding the TWC voting, I was really hoping that this would be a matter of deciding what people deserve, instead of a HOT DOG! ALDEROTH MAJORITY! THAT MEANS WE GET PIPS sort of affair.

[QreepyBORIS]

Being as how stupid the tribes idea was and how poorly it worked out, I see no reason for you to reap barely-earned benefits from Chardish's mistake.

Stacked teams is hardly fair in any event.

[Kilgamayan]

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

There is no guarantee you guys would win. Remember, it was mentioned that we could've lied about our tribe and screwed it all up.

But you didn't. Maybe if we had played again, you could've, but in the only game that went beyond Night 1, you didn't.

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

I should be angry that I was a seer on the 2nd set of roles and then it got taken away, only to find that the seers were still around, right? Shouldn't I have been upset?

I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion of who won or what they should get, if anything.

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

After all, I could have received a blue pip if I did things right.

Note the "if". The key there is that you didn't do things right. We did.

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

The TWC, with three members on Alderoth, will most likely vote in favor so they can have another pip.

Pardon us for trying to maintain the rules.

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

But I as well as you will always remember that the last rerandomization was flawed, making the game stacked from the start.

How the hell was the game "stacked"? Let me teach you and everyone else here a little bit about probability:

A coin is flipped 10 times. It comes up heads every time. Your goal is to guess what the 11th flip will be. If you say heads, what are the odds you will be right? 50%.

Same scenario, except it's tails all 10 times. Odds of flip 11 being heads? 50%.

Now it goes HTTHTHHTHT. Odds of flip 11 being heads? Still 50%.

See what I'm getting at?

Draw two was Kefit, Spheroid, Jenova and myself. What are the odds that the third draw is Kefit, Spheroid, Jenova and myself? Not very large, but they're no larger or smaller than the odds that the third draw is you, LD, alain and Hans, or Tass, blah, Guido and Kefit, or any other four-person combo you can think of.

Bottom line: No matter how chardish was doing his draws, they were going to produce a four person combination that, for all intents and purposes for the remaining humans, was random. I could host a game where I hand-pick every single role just because I want to see how it works out, and if I never tell anyone, everyone will assume every role was chosen at random. What if I had handpicked Tass, stretchy, alain, Jurs and Hans? Would Dark Matters have been any different than how it turned out when they were chosen randomly?

And on a side note, assuming that just because Group X of people are wolves in this draw, they won't be wolves in the next one as 100% factual is stupid. If you're going to base your assumptions about a wolf draw on previous draws, you're a damn fool and deserve to lose.

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

We'll remember how you got the pip.

Yeah, by outthinking my/our enemies. Isn't that the goal of the game?

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

Most importantly, the way you vote on this will reveal something about your character.

That we're willing to put work into getting a reward? I thought everyone already knew that about Tass, blah and myself. I don't like riding coattails to victory (I even told someone I don't think I deserve a pip for Manhunt), and I'm sure they feel the same way.

Originally Posted by nforcer06164

Do you believe in fair play?

Are you implying we cheated?

Originally Posted by chardish

1) I annulled the game. I essentially realized my mistake was with not honestly rerandomizing the roles, and that's why I halted it. The game was started under false pretenses. That's completely not fair.

Read my above probability rant to see why your methods of randomization were irrelevant.

Originally Posted by chardish

2) If I give a pip, this means that this pathetic little attempt at trying something different, that lasted barely 24 hours, counts as a TWG, and carries the same weight as any other game. Equality is really at the heart of the matter - I don't want to give this game the same weight as any others.

The game ended so fast because you stopped it, and only because you stopped it. If you had not stopped it, it would have regular length (well, a bit shorter given we already had our path to victory set up). Length of game holds no weight because the game was 100% over at that point and it was only a matter of time before all the Saybans were dead.

Originally Posted by chardish

If you're leading 1-0 in the World Series and, by freak coincidence, the other team's hotel burns down in the middle of the night, do you really want to call yourselves "World Series Champions?" Doesn't it feel a tad unmerited?

If baseball rules stated that the Series was not over despite all those deaths, then I would not accept a ring. However, that's not what happened. What happened, to use your analogy, was Paul Tagliabue stepping in and declaring the World Series to be stopped because he meant for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and Atlanta Braves to switch divisions before the season began. It could have continued under any other circumstances, but he ended it early. If I was on the team up 1-0, then I would have no qualms accepting a ring, because the Series ended with my team in the lead win-wise.

Originally Posted by chardish

Regarding the TWC voting, I was really hoping that this would be a matter of deciding what people deserve, instead of a HOT DOG! ALDEROTH MAJORITY! THAT MEANS WE GET PIPS sort of affair.

Tass, blah (I assume) and myself all feel that the Alderoth team deserves pips because they won the game, and our votes would reflect that.

Originally Posted by QreepyBORIS

Being as how stupid the tribes idea was and how poorly it worked out, I see no reason for you to reap barely-earned benefits from Chardish's mistake.

Stacked teams is hardly fair in any event.

Sayban's fault it got out-thought by Alderoth and didn't warn its wolves against killing talisman. Maybe you'll play better next time as to prevent this, eh?

[ImEric12]

I realize I'm not a part of this game, but reading the thread brought an interesting thought to mind.

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

And, if TWC decided that this is NOT the case (we have 3 TWCers on team Alderoth...),

This seems really unfair to me. There should be a limit of how many TWC members can participate in each game, so if something like this were to come up, the majority of the TWC doesn't have a biased, in-game opinion. Just an idea.


edit: oh and, you're welcome flypie <4

[nforcer06164]

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

But you didn't. Maybe if we had played again, you could've, but in the only game that went beyond Night 1, you didn't.

You didn't win either, did you?

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

I fail to see how that's relevant to the discussion of who won or what they should get, if anything.

You're complaining. I'm not. There's a difference there.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

Note the "if". The key there is that you didn't do things right. We did.

Did you? I thought the game was never finished. Your victory was ensured... in circumstance.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

Pardon us for trying to maintain the rules.

The rules seem to be being used to give you the pip you so desire. That doesn't seem like fair, unbiased rules to me.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

How the hell was the game "stacked"? Let me teach you and everyone else here a little bit about probability: PROBABILITY STUFF NFORCER ALREADY KNEW

It is possible that the same wolves would've been chosen again. But the odds are so heavily against it, that it's almost impossible on a second subsequent time. They'd have to be on the same tribes, too. I wouldn't bet on it happening, and I know you wouldn't either. The game was stacked because a majority knew who the wolves were, and they weren't rerandomized so they were secret once again. Please don't say that isn't stacked, or unfair.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

Yeah, by outthinking my/our enemies. Isn't that the goal of the game?

No, by voting, "Yes, Alderoth won TWG XIV." That's what it's coming down to this "game", which was never finished.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

That we're willing to put work into getting a reward? I thought everyone already knew that about Tass, blah and myself. I don't like riding coattails to victory (I even told someone I don't think I deserve a pip for Manhunt), and I'm sure they feel the same way.

No, that you are willing to vote a win for yourself on unfair circumstances. And you're doing it because you were given a privilege. Corrupt leadership isn't uncommon, don't become a statistic.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

Are you implying we cheated?

I'm implying it was unfair. You didn't cheat. But you didn't win, either.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

Read my above probability rant to see why your methods of randomization were irrelevant.

It's hardly irrelevant. The odds are so astronomical in this situation that you can't base it on probability at all.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

The game ended so fast because you stopped it, and only because you stopped it. If you had not stopped it, it would have regular length (well, a bit shorter given we already had our path to victory set up). Length of game holds no weight because the game was 100% over at that point and it was only a matter of time before all the Saybans were dead.

100% over? Were all the Saybans dead? Were all the wolves dead? it was unfinished. It wasn't a full game. You know that. You can't argue that.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

If baseball rules stated that the Series was not over despite all those deaths, then I would not accept a ring. However, that's not what happened. What happened, to use your analogy, was Paul Tagliabue stepping in and declaring the World Series to be stopped because he meant for the Tampa Bay Devil Rays and Atlanta Braves to switch divisions before the season began. It could have continued under any other circumstances, but he ended it early. If I was on the team up 1-0, then I would have no qualms accepting a ring, because the Series ended with my team in the lead win-wise.

Boston Red Sox vs. Yankees in the League Playoffs last year. Boston - 0 games. Yankees - 3 games. You know the rest. It's not over 'til it's over. and the TWG was far from over. You had no guarantee at a win.

Originally Posted by Kilgamayan

Tass, blah (I assume) and myself all feel that the Alderoth team deserves pips because they won the game, and our votes would reflect that.

Once again, YOU DID NOT WIN. Nothing said "Alderoth victory", did it? Right, because the game never ended.

[lightdarkness]

INTERNET DRAMA

[nforcer06164]

I can't believe I'm actually arguing about this anymore >_<

[stretchypanda]

Mmkay, so I wasn't in the game, and Flypie has set a magnificent precedent for people not involved in the game posting in this thread, but I'm sure I can redeem myself.

As far as anyone being awarded a victory goes, this is seriously just a ridiculous example of finding a hole and running with it. I wasn't aware that winning this game was THAT important to any of you that you'd want it over in three seconds. I personally enjoy being made to think about what I am doing, and things like what happened here completely killed that for anyone else who may feel as I do about these games.

If it's really that important to you, take your pips, and take your "easy" victory, and enjoy knowing that you didn't have to work at all. Tass, I am aware that you have claimed to have put a lot of work into this. HOWEVER, the game didn't even last a day, so you couldn't have lost THAT much sleep over it.