Serious Judging System Suggestion

[hi19hi19]

Reset Simfile Artist Points.

I know that's weird to hear coming from a guy who really values his max submission cap, but hear me out.

Pros for resetting SAP:
Rewards consistent quality submissions
Smaller batches after the reset
Easier bookkeeping.

Cons:
Negates the hard work people have done in attaining their current score.


Batches have been getting absolutely massive recently, with multiple people at the maximum submission cap, and periodically resetting SAP would ease the load on judges.
The downside of course is that people who have built up their SAP might feel cheated, but these same people would also be the first to build their SAP up again. If you really are consistently submitting quality files, it should make no difference.
We'd have to choose a simple interval to reset on, say, every year.
Another option would be to periodically halve SAP instead of fully resetting it, once again with the goal of forcing people to consistently submit quality files.

After looking at the state of the SAP system and judging, I thought of this and just wanted to get this idea being discussed.

[TC_Halogen]

We are actually in the process of reconstructing the system so that it does become a bit more manageable. The lateness in the previous batch was absolutely inexcusable, and we're all aware of that.

I personally am not fond of a SAP reset as a simfile artist being that it was relatively difficult for me to find time to chart, and I don't want my cap to be dropped at all. Others might not share the same sentiments as I do, though.

Another potential issue with this: the simfile artists who frequently get their files accepted with high SAPs are being choked down due to a reset, which means acceptance rates on the first few batches could be substantially lower to the point where we might not support file releases. Looking at this current acceptance list here, we had 52 files accepted and eligible for SAP. Out of those 52 files, 42 of them come from artists who have (or NOW have) enough SAP to submit four files.

If for any reason FFR wants to revert back to six files per weekly release (and I really hope we don't shift this way), we would need at least 24 files to sustain a month's worth of releases. Resetting people's SAP effectively reduces the files by half (potentially more with our 5-cap artists) in a batch period.

Either way, there is a lot to be weighed in.

[ilikexd]

heck no

recent batch delays were caused by tons of coinciding personal failures, not due to simfile volume

[Rebirth0]

Don't reset SAP. Eliminate it. Cap ALL personal submissions 2 two files per batch per person.

>but people can make multiple accounts and exploit it

Well we can check IPs for new, unknown simfile artists. If an IP matches a person with another account, completely disregard the submissions from the new account

I may not have a high SAP and may not be able to submit as many files as other people right now, but as a second person who has a ton of files in the game and obviously cares or cared about the amount of simfiles submitted (me and hi19 being the other so far in this thread), I would rather have QUALITY over QUANTITY. Lowering the cap to 2 files no matter what will force people to submit their best files. That means less files to judge, and less of a chance shitty files make it into the game.

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

I would rather have QUALITY over QUANTITY.

This. Pretty much that.


Like, if the cap was removed I would send a shit ton of files, chances are they would be 5-7 rating. However, I rather be limited and try to push for 7-9's.

Like, if anything adjusting the cap would be better by like adding +1 file per whatever, instead of removing it ONLY if there is a significant lack of files.

[ilikexd]

quality and quantity aren't mutually exclusive

[AlexDest]

Originally Posted by Xiz

Like, if the cap was removed I would send a shit ton of files, chances are they would be 5-7 rating. However, I rather be limited and try to push for 7-9's.

...or you could just push for 7-9's even without a cap?

If you are aware that an abundance of effortless charts have become a problem, then try to show effort yourself.

[Untimely Friction]

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

Don't reset SAP. Eliminate it. Cap ALL personal submissions 2 two files per batch per person.

>but people can make multiple accounts and exploit it

Well we can check IPs for new, unknown simfile artists. If an IP matches a person with another account, completely disregard the submissions from the new account

I may not have a high SAP and may not be able to submit as many files as other people right now, but as a second person who has a ton of files in the game and obviously cares or cared about the amount of simfiles submitted (me and hi19 being the other so far in this thread), I would rather have QUALITY over QUANTITY. Lowering the cap to 2 files no matter what will force people to submit their best files. That means less files to judge, and less of a chance shitty files make it into the game.

I've never submitted, and nor have I participated in a batch, but this seems like the most solid idea in terms of infrastructure of the system, but also removes the reward aspect which is bad for incentive to step... but I like it.

Edit: And as xiz has stated more openings lower quality as well! this is bad. 2 is a good number, will make people try really hard to get 1/2 or 2/2 files to be super-ballers.

[Rebirth0]

If that method reduces the amount of files submitted, it will also reduce the amount of files released on a weekly basis. That is one more good thing. I have 700 or so AAA's and have played around 1200 files in the current game. The amount of files I have to play to catch up and have my average rank and other stats be what they should be, makes this game incredibly intimidating to play now. If I feel this way, just imagine what people new to the game would feel like once they figure out how rankings are calculated

Yeah I took breaks for long periods of time and it is my fault there is so much shit on the plate for me to deal with if I want to look competitive again, but you guys were releasing 6 files per week at times before the official tournaments. Really? Yeah yeah trying to drain the queue

If we placed a hard cap of 2 files per batch and released 3 files per week for the next few YEARS, I don't think one person would complain

[ilikexd]

Originally Posted by Untimely Friction

Edit: And as xiz has stated more openings lower quality as well! this is bad.

No..

Originally Posted by Untimely Friction

2 is a good number, will make people try really hard to get 1/2 or 2/2 files to be super-ballers.

If a higher standard is needed, stricter judging/acceptance cutoffs can be implemented, not restricting everybody's submission caps. It's quite possible to make more than 2 "super-baller" files per period, and stepartists' intention shouldn't be to send as many files as possible to the batch when you KNOW they aren't good.

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

If that method reduces the amount of files submitted, it will also reduce the amount of files released on a weekly basis. That is one more good thing. I have 700 or so AAA's and have played around 1200 files in the current game. The amount of files I have to play to catch up and have my average rank and other stats be what they should be, makes this game incredibly intimidating to play now. If I feel this way, just imagine what people new to the game would feel like once they figure out how rankings are calculated

Yeah I took breaks for long periods of time and it is my fault there is so much shit on the plate for me to deal with if I want to look competitive again, but you guys were releasing 6 files per week at times before the official tournaments. Really? Yeah yeah trying to drain the queue

If we placed a hard cap of 2 files per batch and released 3 files per week for the next few YEARS, I don't think one person would complain

So one of the cons is Rebirth0 is intimidated by more charts in the game. What about the pros, such as: more charts in the game? Seriously, I'm being really blunt here, but I'm really confused by these arguments.

[TC_Halogen]

I'm just going to cut this argument short and say that the restructure that is being worked on is likely not going to be reducing the number of files that people can submit. As it was said earlier in this thread, quality and quantity are not correlative in this case. All reducing the cap does is spreads out the higher quality files that people finish in longer intervals. If you were to finish files 1, 2, 3, and 4, with files 2 and 3 being the best quality, you would opt into sending 2/3 first and then 1/4 second since they're all finished files intended for submission. Simply assuming that the files will be thrown away because people have to choose between submissions is an illogical implication.

[Rebirth0]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

If you were to finish files 1, 2, 3, and 4, with files 2 and 3 being the best quality, you would opt into sending 2/3 first and then 1/4 second since they're all finished files intended for submission. Simply assuming that the files will be thrown away because people have to choose between submissions is an illogical implication.

You'd hope the judges are competent enough to realize files 1 and 4 are lesser quality and would reject them. Implementing this submission cap would lower the number of files needing to be judged, and would lower the amount of judges, making better decisions more likely to happen, assuming the right judges are in place

And if you really think you want to let people submit 5+ files per batch, then enforce stricter judging. Right now if I was judging a 70 file batch, I would tell myself "I AM ONLY ACCEPTING X AMOUNT OF FILES." There will be deserving files that would be left out, but that's why you're called a judge. Make the decision to pick the absolute best files.

It makes it a two round judging process, but it is a good method. That's somewhat how it was done when me, jimerax, and Tass were the only judges. Tass was simply the "head" judge and judged only the files we accepted and determined what would go in the game based on those. (I definitely wish me or jimerax were the ones with final say, but it was Tass and Tass always knew best)

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

You'd hope the judges are competent enough to realize files 1 and 4 are lesser quality and would reject them. Implementing this submission cap would lower the number of files needing to be judged, and would lower the amount of judges, making better decisions more likely to happen, assuming the right judges are in place.

It had nothing to do with judges at all. It had to do with people submitting files that they completed. If files 1/4 are sitting in reserve and are the weaker of the files, they're eventually going to be submitted and eventually get rejected, as you just said. You shot yourself in the foot with your own point, Rebirth.

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

And if you really think you want to let people submit 5+ files per batch, then enforce stricter judging. Right now if I was judging a 70 file batch, I would tell myself "I AM ONLY ACCEPTING X AMOUNT OF FILES."

At your bolded point: NO. This is completely senseless; setting a fixed amount of accepted files is beyond acceptable. Whether you want to realize it or not, the community as whole, as improving at their simfiling rhetoric. There is no reason to stifle the amount of files accepted because of forcefully restrictive judging -- there's a reason why people with 5 file submission caps can submit that much: they've proven to be really strong simfile artists. I for one am not going to sit here and disallow files from people who have worked their way up to submit a larger amount of files because they have consistently provided good quality to the game.

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

There will be deserving files that would be left out, but that's why you're called a judge. Make the decision to pick the absolute best files.

That is highly subjective, and we're not going to delve into that any further.

Originally Posted by Rebirth0

It makes it a two round judging process, but it is a good method. That's somewhat how it was done when me, jimerax, and Tass were the only judges. Tass was simply the "head" judge and judged only the files we accepted and determined what would go in the game based on those. (I definitely wish me or jimerax were the ones with final say, but it was Tass and Tass always knew best)

That was then, and this is now. Things have changed, and the process is more streamlined with a larger group of people that can be split into smaller groups. I wasn't a fan of how Tass was responsible for dictating the final say of what got in game -- he was very subjective and would reject files for really unfair reasons, and that's not how things are going to be run over here.

[Rebirth0]

My argument is geared towards lowering the amount of files that go into the game, partly because the game is getting too massive, partly because there are still pretty weak files getting into the game, and partly because your judges shat themselves, my guess because there are too many files to judge. I never said, and I don't even have the authority right now to say, any of my ideas are going to be implemented. But you're also refusing to acknowledge my points could actually be an issue with the game. That's a very Tass-like tendency.

Your streamline method obviously doesn't work anymore either as your judge group completely blew up from what seems like being overworked. I'm sorry my old and broken ideas aren't to your liking

When game managing and judging I acted on behalf of the community, with the communities thoughts in mind. That's how I still act. Ask the community how you should do this going forward. I think simfile artists would understand if submissions were capped to give judges less of a hard time

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by AlexDest

...or you could just push for 7-9's even without a cap?

If you are aware that an abundance of effortless charts have become a problem, then try to show effort yourself.

Perhaps I was unclear.

I don't send shitty charts. I work hard to produce good charts. (Sure they might come back bad but I still work on 'em to fix them)

I was talking about people as a whole if that opportunity was open.

[TC_Halogen]

Rebirth0, I would sit here and humor you, but I simply cannot because I have some Network Security homework I need to do, so I'm just going to summarize your post really fast.

a.) the judges group didn't falter because of it being too many files, they faltered because of miscommunications, and literally because of certain people's inability to just motivate themselves to do it. That's not a downfall of the team as a whole, that's the downfall of specific people. That is being addressed in the current reconstruction of the judgment system, and there is intent to hold judges accountable for issues like those in the future.

b.) Your statement regarding "pretty weak files" still getting in game really just makes it that much harder to listen to you, because you're being narcisstic and implying that you know better than others about what makes a good file and what doesn't. There are a lot of simfile artists here that have improved quite a bit, and I don't take kindly to you downing them when you hardly submit to the batch as it is. If you couldn't already see, I'm assessing your points as you bring them up, and I'm responding to them very clearly for you. I have no reason to sugarcoat anything -- I already know what happens when things are just allowed to try and fit in place. Assertion is clearly the way to get things done around here.

c.) The game getting massive is something that is uncontrollable with a game that has existed for 10 years. It is intimidating, but the solution to that doesn't revolve around file submissions because that count will continue to accumulate, and reduction in content hurts us now (and will hurt us later). If the game were to be purged or have yearly scoreboards/ranked files, and the list was growing, that's completely different. That is not the case.

If you want to bring up points for reconstruction like hi19 did, that is perfectly fine. However, ensure that your reasoning behind it is sensible.

[Izzy]

Originally Posted by TC_Halogen

Rebirth0, I would sit here and humor you, but I simply cannot because I have some Network Security homework I need to do, so I'm just going to summarize your post really fast.

Conceited as always I see. Can you please stop pretending to be vastly superior to everyone? Please, thanks.

[Coolboyrulez0]

Holy shit the amount disastrous suggestions and fallacies in this thread. Rebirth go disapear again for a while please, izzy stop sucking on rebirths dick because AJ properly dismantled his argument.

All in all stop being dumb nignogs ty and much love from the fatherland

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by Izzy

Conceited as always I see. Can you please stop pretending to be vastly superior to everyone? Please, thanks.

Absolutely not. I have to give you appropriate posting material to insult me whenever you get the chance. Everyone else, carry on!

EDIT: in all seriousness though, I'm really not sure how posting that I have network security related homework to do makes me vastly superior to other people, considering there are a number of other CS majors here who could make me look like crap at the drop of a hat

[Izzy]

I didn't read anyone's suggestions, but his comment was just so self righteous it hurt.