Communism is bad?

[~kitty~]

My dad and his friend try to tell me that Communism is bad. They say "it's bad because many millions die under the Communist rule, lots of their own people, and it's a God-denying type of government, and supports dictatorship." They talk about how corrupt it is, and how it's evil and there are no human rights in Communist countries.

Apparently, anyone who uses the word "Imperialism" in conversation, or in politics, is a Communist, or extreme leftist. Someone tell me exactly what this is all about?

[TheSaxRunner05]

Just go read some books about modern history and make your own judgments.

[bmah]

I didn't really take your friend's/father's quote seriously as soon as they included "God-denying" as part of their reasoning.

In any case, the idea of communism is good. But the result never turns out as it is originally intended. That refers to the corruption, bureaucracy, etc. you're talking about.

More likely, however, most people misuse the word "communism". Some extreme Americans might say that Sweden or Canada is communist, when really, it's just a slightly lefter leaning capitalistic society. To be truly communist, it's a much longer road to the left than that. I suggest your father/friend don't swing that word carelessly; use the word as is it actually defined.

[~kitty~]

Originally Posted by bmah

I didn't really take your friend's/father's quote seriously as soon as they included "God-denying" as part of their reasoning.

In any case, the idea of communism is good. But the result never turns out as it is originally intended. That refers to the corruption, bureaucracy, etc. you're talking about.

More likely, however, most people misuse the word "communism". Some extreme Americans might say that Sweden or Canada is communist, when really, it's just a slightly lefter leaning capitalistic society. To be truly communist, it's a much longer road to the left than that. I suggest your father/friend don't swing that word carelessly; use the word as is it actually defined.

See, my problem is I don't know what the details are of what's actually going on, because both sides are saying the other is lying. Reading about it wont help because one will say the other is just writing with bias to brain-wash the other. My dad would probably say the people in all Communist countries have no human rights and are evil. Someone who supports Communism says that people hate Communism because it takes money from the rich Capitalists and redistributes the wealth to the poor. Then the counter for that is that the people working for the government takes the money that's supposed to be redistributed and leaves the rest of the population in poverty.

[bmah]

Well then, it's up to you to decide what side to take. Read up on communism and capitalism on wikipedia (for starters), make the assumption that you're not being biased or poisoned by opposing influences, and then make up your mind.

Also, try to relate everyday things/practical aspects in life to the effects of capitalism and communism. Then you can gain an appreciation (or dislike) of these two ideologies. Up to you to decide.

[PriestREA]

Originally Posted by ~kitty~

My dad and his friend try to tell me that Communism is bad. They say "it's bad because many millions die under the Communist rule, lots of their own people, and it's a God-denying type of government, and supports dictatorship." They talk about how corrupt it is, and how it's evil and there are no human rights in Communist countries.

Apparently, anyone who uses the word "Imperialism" in conversation, or in politics, is a Communist, or extreme leftist. Someone tell me exactly what this is all about?

I used to be quite leftist when it came to politics. However, my stance is still moderately leftist, but I've definitely moved to the right by quite a substantial margin.

Obviously bmah has touched up on this topic, but I just like to give my stance on things. Communism is strictly theory based. It's probably the most sound type of government; again, only in theory. It lacks the foundations when it executes in a country. For example, a doctor vs. a construction worker. The doctor has most likely devoted a large sum of his/her time to achieve a license to practice said profession. A construction worker (no offense if anyone works in this field), requires less in terms of post-secondary education than a doctor. Yet, the construction worker is bound to make the same thing. This leads to internal instability, revolt by the populous and protest for a democratic regime to reign supreme.

[~kitty~]

Originally Posted by bmah

Well then, it's up to you to decide what side to take. Read up on communism and capitalism on wikipedia (for starters), make the assumption that you're not being biased or poisoned by opposing influences, and then make up your mind.

Also, try to relate everyday things/practical aspects in life to the effects of capitalism and communism. Then you can gain an appreciation (or dislike) of these two ideologies. Up to you to decide.

These sources kind of do not provide the information I'm looking for. I'm looking for what both sides arguments are, actively, not just these things. I can't form an opinion if I only know the ideals of each Communism and Capitalism. I need to know what actually happens or at least what people think happens. From what I heard, it's not so bad in China. However, China isn't a truly Communist country, due to its open market. I'm not sure what to think, really. To what extent is there individual freedom in the Communist countries? Reading up on them doesn't necessarily give me this information, because there aren't really any "Communist" countries as the ideology wants it be... I guess.

[bmah]

That's right; there hasn't been a single country that has worked out according to the true ideals of communism.

For your query, you'd have to do a lot more searching. I mean looking up the statistics of "communist" countries, reading up on documentaries, and so on. I can't really give you an explicit source, because what you decide upon is cumulative.

Maybe you can watch this for a start?

[PriestREA]

Originally Posted by ~kitty~

These sources kind of do not provide the information I'm looking for. I'm looking for what both sides arguments are, actively, not just these things. I can't form an opinion if I only know the ideals of each Communism and Capitalism. I need to know what actually happens or at least what people think happens. From what I heard, it's not so bad in China. However, China isn't a truly Communist country, due to its open market. I'm not sure what to think, really. To what extent is there individual freedom in the Communist countries? Reading up on them doesn't necessarily give me this information, because there aren't really any "Communist" countries as the ideology wants it be... I guess.

I guess a common leftist argument is that of the more controlled the government, the more controlled the people. It's just a matter of the government needing control. One of the biggest arguments of a leftist person is that of equality, which is quite hard to explain due to its flawed basis and very poor foundation of ideas.

Any right wing politician or ideologist would easily argue that along the lines of "The freer the market, the freer the people." This is absolutely true, and that's also why China, as you said has broken the habits of communism and become the powerhouse of the world (or soon to be). It's growing by the largest amount economically in terms of every other country, and they owe it all to the open market.

To sum it up, leftist arguments are about governmental control, how the government is the authority and authority makes society for the better.

Right wing arguments are about freedom with minimal government involvement, allowing a free trade system and freedom for everyone living in said country. They believe that a foundation of good government is giving power to the people; as well as getting support from the people.

That's really the most I can help considering that I haven't really gone farther into history at the moment. Hope it helps.

[~kitty~]

Originally Posted by bmah

That's right; there hasn't been a single country that has worked out according to the true ideals of communism.

For your query, you'd have to do a lot more searching. I mean looking up the statistics of "communist" countries, reading up on documentaries, and so on. I can't really give you an explicit source, because what you decide upon is cumulative.

Maybe you can watch this for a start?

I will when I have my laptop fixed.

Originally Posted by PriestREA

I guess a common leftist argument is that of the more controlled the government, the more controlled the people. It's just a matter of the government needing control. One of the biggest arguments of a leftist person is that of equality, which is quite hard to explain due to its flawed basis and very poor foundation of ideas.

Any right wing politician or ideologist would easily argue that along the lines of "The freer the market, the freer the people." This is absolutely true, and that's also why China, as you said has broken the habits of communism and become the powerhouse of the world (or soon to be). It's growing by the largest amount economically in terms of every other country, and they owe it all to the open market.

To sum it up, leftist arguments are about governmental control, how the government is the authority and authority makes society for the better.

Right wing arguments are about freedom with minimal government involvement, allowing a free trade system and freedom for everyone living in said country. They believe that a foundation of good government is giving power to the people; as well as getting support from the people.

That's really the most I can help considering that I haven't really gone farther into history at the moment. Hope it helps.

I know this already, however this pretty much explains the outer surface of what I want to know. I'm trying to find out the opinion of the inner workings of these places such as China, Korea, and the other countries that claim to be under Communist rule.

How does the Communist rule kill their people? What do they do to kill them? I heard from one source that China doesn't allow you to speak about God. From another, I heard that the people of China tolerate religion to an extent and allows you to practice some religions as well. I don't know the details, so I can't really have a stance there. As for North Korea, I have no idea what they're doing. I'm trying to figure these things out, and watching the News provides really biased views of these things. I don't know where I can find credible information of these details.

[PriestREA]

Originally Posted by ~kitty~

I will when I have my laptop fixed.



I know this already, however this pretty much explains the outer surface of what I want to know. I'm trying to find out the opinion of the inner workings of these places such as China, Korea, and the other countries that claim to be under Communist rule.

How does the Communist rule kill their people? What do they do to kill them? I heard from one source that China doesn't allow you to speak about God. From another, I heard that the people of China tolerate religion to an extent and allows you to practice some religions as well. I don't know the details, so I can't really have a stance there. As for North Korea, I have no idea what they're doing. I'm trying to figure these things out, and watching the News provides really biased views of these things. I don't know where I can find credible information of these details.

Well, I'm happy to look around at articles and see if I can find anything that matches the query =D

[TheSaxRunner05]

I'd suggest looking for academic or professional sources, which tend to be less biased. Remember, every text has some bias because it was written by a human being.

[ffraxis]

what kind of communism are you talking about guy, there are many different kinds of communist governments/doctrines.

start by looking at authoritarian/libertarian governments then slowly work away to find desired form of communist government (or make one up).

[Izzy]

Communism is bad in practice, not in theory. And it is only bad in practice because it is near impossible to execute the concept of communism perfectly.

[kommisar]

communism looks great on paper, but obviously the history of communism implemented in any given society is atrocious. because there's so much money coming in that's supposed to be distributed, it's hard for whoever's in charge not to profit off this. too much responsibility that can be easily abused and unless there's someone else who disagrees with you (democracy!) there's usually nothing to stop you from doing such. unless you get overthrown or some shit which would be funny to see in china lmao

[XCV]

Originally Posted by bmah

I didn't really take your friend's/father's quote seriously as soon as they included "God-denying" as part of their reasoning.

In any case, the idea of communism is good. But the result never turns out as it is originally intended. That refers to the corruption, bureaucracy, etc. you're talking about.

More likely, however, most people misuse the word "communism". Some extreme Americans might say that Sweden or Canada is communist, when really, it's just a slightly lefter leaning capitalistic society. To be truly communist, it's a much longer road to the left than that. I suggest your father/friend don't swing that word carelessly; use the word as is it actually defined.

This is the idea I generally use when my friends/teachers bring this up.

Yeah, it's a good idea on paper. But to quote Lord Acton: "Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely."

If you haven't read it already, Animal Farm provides a pretty good reference.

EDIT: Christ I got ninjad like 4-fold

[Reincarnate]

Communism is aimed to prevent a classless society. That is to say, the government plays a bigger role in determining what you own. Your money effectively goes to the government as tax, and then the government, in turn, gives you the means to have clothing, employment, and food. In other words, you're guaranteed basic necessities as long as you play the game.

It sounds reasonable on paper, but it's often idealized and doesn't work well in practice. The problem is that when the government basically decides your lifestyle for you, there's no profit motive on your end. You don't get more if you work harder, so there's little incentive to innovate/excel/develop/create/pursue anything when you can just do the bare minimum and be just as well off as anyone else. The other issue: The economy depends on collective output. When you have a society producing at a suboptimal rate, that means there are often shortages. Goods are crappier. People who are in the government tend to take larger cuts because there's nobody to tell them otherwise.

As a result, the average individual lives a rather dull, monotonous life. You get housing, sure, but it's utterly small, shit housing with uber-thin walls, no air conditioning, etc. Regarding food, in America, you can pop into a store, buy something, and be on your way in seconds. Under a communist rule, governmental food distribution practices are usually extremely suboptimal. Lines are huge and you've got like 4-5 people involved in your transaction, and it takes forever. Jobs are often monotonous and dull with little satisfaction or real output.

On a more psychological note, you're in a society that is meant to be very collectivist and communal. Individual considerations are squelched because everything you do should be for the greater whole. There's usually a lot of fearmongering and propaganda put into effect to scare people into submission. It generates a large aura of distrust and it makes you afraid to even speak to your neighbors because it was a huge risk to get accused of something that would result in an easy arrest.

Various costs ultimately become too hard to take care of. Buildings crumble, medicine is scarce, etc.

The crucial problem of communism is that it teaches you to be submissive to power and it doesn't incentivize you to be very productive. You could be brainwashed to love your country under fear of punishment. It's not that communism as a concept implies that you NEED to be abusive to your citizens, or that you NEED to kill people, etc. It's just that the type of system that communism puts forth, when coupled with untapped power and human nature, results in a system that is typically oppressive and harsh.

Now, capitalism is another approach to the issue. It's based on private ownership and typically an open market. Which is to say, if I create my own goods I can trade them with you for your goods for a price we agree on, and nobody else has to be involved (other than, say, government taxing). This kind of system means there are more opportunities when it comes to business and innovation. When you've got competition, there is a drive to push forth and innovate/do things better/provide more value. In other words, hard work and brains are rewarded.

However, the nature of competition can often be unfair. Competition can sometimes lead to a scenario where you've got a monopoly, where one group controls resources and nobody else has a chance to compete against it. This sort of scenario works against the driving motors of capitalism to begin with, as monopolies lead to untapped power and stifling of innovation and (usually) economic suboptimalities. But this is where antitrust law and government rule tend to step in and try to rectify things to keep the open market open and competition thriving.

Ultimately, capitalism gives you an incentive to provide your own financial well-being and freedom, but it can also lead to unfair competition and unequal distributions of wealth. Not everyone is born with the same financial opportunities, freedoms, access to education, etc, and so sometimes it's not possible for some people to gain a competitive advantage to succeed in a capitalist society.

Communism can suck because it is like distributing suffering equally. Capitalism can suck because not everyone is born equal.

These are the major problems with government and economics: Equality, utility, and scarcity. We live in a society where people can produce things that provide utility to others, but not everyone is capable of providing the same levels of utility, and not everyone wants the same things, nor is it easy to make sure there's enough to go around to meet demand. So you have to figure out how to have a society that effectively results in the best life for the most amount of people. How are you going to keep power in check? How are you going to deal with those in society that provide nothing yet want free hand-me-outs? How are you going to stimulate innovation? How will you ensure everyone is effectively employed, happy, and safe? How will you deal with wealth distribution?

These are not easy questions. All you can try to do is move the sliders on the scales until you reach an optimal sweet-spot. But the optimal sweet-spots are always changing with the times, and sometimes we're not even sure how to solve for those sweet-spots. Sometimes moving the sliders themselves can be costly.

[~kitty~]

What I heard from someone who lived in China was that the housing given to them in the public sector (otherwise known as the "Communist" sector) was middle class. They have laws in effect that prevent social inequalities and racial discrimination, and slander is not tolerated. The debate was, however, who decides what's considered "slanderous" and how do we monitor those in power? The private sector is where the suffering and poor working conditions exist, from what I was told. They're usually living in the smaller villages and the managers of the factories are the ones getting all the money while the ones working under them get paid a drastically low amount of money.

However, the details upon freedom to move between these, and the law specifics, as well as a few other things is where things start to blur and I can't get a good picture of what it really is. It may not really seem fair, I guess, but for China's population it's not like there's a lot of ways to prevent mass suffering. My question isn't only directed towards China, though. I'm wondering what happens in these other countries as well, because they can't be nearly as bad as how they're portrayed, especially since no country is practicing Communism true to the ideals. Not that it'd work?

Do you get what I'm trying to ask for?

[Wustenei]

it's not really communism itself that's bad the purpose it's set up for is good it's the leaders that make it a bad thing to have

[~kitty~]

Originally Posted by Wustenei

it's not really communism itself that's bad the purpose it's set up for is good it's the leaders that make it a bad thing to have

Not trying to troll post, but this was put into CT for a reason. That logic can be true about any form of government.