Ideas for future TWGs

[alainbryden]

Huge idea chardish. Just huge. Why are you wasting your mind on this site. Shouldn't you be curing cancer

[Squeek]

I read your idea Chardish and I loved it. I don't know for sure how you want this to work, so I would like to request a summary of what every player can do each phase.

Also, if you go with Tass's AIM-FREE idea, you'd have to factor in the fact that most people can discern another person by the way they type. For instance, I know Tass will spell everything right, just not capitalize. Whether or not he fixes this is up to him during the game. I also know that 87x CONSTANTLY makes the most common errors in his posts and I could easily figure him out as well.

~Squeek

First off, Squeek's question.

BEGINNING OF MOVEMENT PHASE: Wolves are now told which rooms are occupied, and by how many people.

MOVEMENT PHASE: Players choose which room they want to move into.

END OF MOVEMENT PHASE: Players are now considered to be "inside" those rooms. If an enemy guard is there, Alert Mode will trigger now.

BEGINNING OF DECISION PHASE: Players are informed what's inside the rooms they're in. Players are also informed who else is inside those rooms: other players, and NPCs(!)

DECISION PHASE: Players vote to lynch (if they want). Players privately inform the host what they want to do with the room itself. (For most cases this will be choosing to use the terminal.) The terminals are considered to be activated immediately, however, they do not take their action or return any information until the end of the decision phase.

END OF DECISION PHASE: The votes are tallied, and if a person is lynched, they're dead. Terminals take their actions, and all killings are performed simultaneously. (If a terminal was supposed to return information to a person who is now dead because of some other effect, the now-dead person does not receive the information.)

In regards to what blah said, yes, the number of enemy soldiers is too high. I figured it up, and even with 1/3 of the team being sneakers, there's an 83.2% chance of alert mode on every turn until people start dying. This will take renovation. I'm thinking dropping it to 5 guards, and upping the building size to 8x8.

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

also, you say the wolves will know the location of every human... you sort of implied that they would know the contents of the room as well... that seems to be too unbalanced towards the wolves, to know what goodies lie in each room... the wolves could just hoard the best rooms and kill any humans who stumble in.

The wolves only know which rooms are occupied, not who's in them or what's in them. So a wolf report might look like this:

There is one person in A-4, B-3, B-9, C-1, C-7, D-0, E-8.
There are two people in A-8, D-6, E-1.
There are three people in C-2.

Of course, some of those are undoubtedly the wolves. The reason for a report like this is: people keep hanging out in C-2 - maybe it's worth your while to investigate and see what's there, go to a map data terminal and figure it out, or simply gas the room next time you get the chance. The purpose of this wolf report is so that the humans realize they can't lounge around in certain rooms forever.

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

also, how will everyone know where everyone else is? will that be posted at the end of each movement phase? everyone's nanites should allow them to know the location of everyone else... which isn't THAT helpful.

No. It's your responsibility to tell each other where you're going. Of course, if you want to be truthful about this, it's up to you. Honesty breeds trust, but it also invites backstabbing. An interesting dilemma. The purpose of the locator terminal is to check up on people and see if they've been telling the truth or not. (I expect this can lead to interesting confrontations: "You were in C-2, but you told everyone you were going to D-5. Why?")

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

also, in response to the mentioning of AIM would be the sole communication of everything... if we use anonymous usernames, it makes it very difficult to factor AIM in. in fact, it could be stated as a rule that AIM is 100% out of service for this game. all communication must be done over the forums or PMs. something like that.

I was thinking of registering alternate AIM accounts for everyone for this game, too. If people were receptive to this kind of idea. Otherwise, it should be PMs only.

Originally Posted by Tasselfoot

if the wolves hack a humans account, is the human then dead and out of the game? and, would the newly hacked wolf count towards the wolves win at the end of the game, as the wolves would control their vote. that seems to be very powerful.

The consciousness of the human is being suppressed and overridden by the wolf team through one of their agents. There is a way to remedy this, but it's not too easy.

This is extremely powerful, yes, but think of all the things that have to come into play to make this work:

1) A human has to enter the Science Lab. Since the room's only game feature is to convert humans to wolves, if a human discovers it he'd be very, very wise to tell anyone else about it. (On the other hand, this once again opens the game for lies: if a wolf finds a seer terminal, why not tell people it's a Science Lab?)
2) A wolf has to enter the Science Lab at the same time. This means that it can either happen by coincidence, or by a wolf actively setting a trap for a human.
3) There can't be another human in the room, either. (Suspicious of a trap? Go in pairs.)

Originally Posted by evilbutterfly

Also, maybe more classes should be made? Also, the guards should only move 1 space at a time, rather than skipping around. That's more realistic, and it would help keep alert mode away. May be also make it so humans can sense guards around them in a 1-block radius, so if they move slowly through the rooms they can avoid them. Or maybe that skill could just be for one character class.

I like your idea. It makes it kind of like Wumpus World, and allows for more information gathering and smarter movement.

Originally Posted by evilbutterfly

Oh, and is there a time when talking is not allowed, such as night in TWG? And will there be a different thing when a human kills and a wolf kills? That would require that the killer's name is not revealed, though. If it didn't give any indication whether the killer was human or wolf, that would make it hard to tell what may be going on. Then again, I know that if I ever entered a room with somebody in it I would immediately IM a friend in the game and say "this guy is in the room with me, if I die by wolfing it was him!!" That may make it too easy for humans, though. =\

Aha...and you have found the secret magic of the "humans being allowed to kill" rule. Wolves can no longer kill indiscriminately and avoid suspicion. They have to have reasons for their kills. You can talk anytime you want until you're dead - and after you're dead the killer can come up with all the reasons they want to for their action. But remember - the gas terminal is probably the best weapon in the game if used properly, because it's the only way to kill remotely and kill anonymously.

People IM each other all the time at night, so why not let them talk in the thread too? This could also lead to conversations like "I'm at a seer terminal, who should I investigate?" etc. Since seer is a location, not a role, people will be more inclined to share information like this.

This game is all about who's got information, and whose information is right.

More room ideas:
Superscrambler terminal: randomly reassigns every terminal to a new location, almost as if the game's started over. Requires re-exploration of the facility. Rooms that aren't terminals (storage rooms, labs, offices, etc.) are not affected.

Validity check terminal: give the terminal a statement. The terminal will tell you if it's true or false. Cannot be used as a seer terminal.

Commander's terminal: give new destinations for each enemy guard. They will appear there next turn.

Electronic lock terminal: pick a room. That room becomes electronically locked and no one can move there next turn. If a person is already in that room, they can't get out.

Switch terminal: pick a room. If there's a terminal in that room, it now becomes the switch terminal and the current room becomes the targeted room's terminal.

This will definitely take a lot of testing and refinement, but I look forward to working on it further.

Terminal ideas? Tell me. The ones I like the best are the ones that are a) simple, b) require no new game mechanics, and c) can be used by both humans and wolves to their team's benefit.

[blahblah18]

Super scrambler is way too overpowered for the wolves I think.. so much that it might unbalance it.. the games seems to be that of time, can the humans figure out the room sbefore the wovles kill them, and on that note.. I don't think there sohuld be a gas terminal... the whole idea should be that anonymous killing should basically be impossible, especially if peopel go off in pairs.. and again, what happens if 3-X people are in a room together, does a plurality kill wish be needed or what? is it like diplomacy that you'd support a kill, etcetera... Also, do humans win if all wolves are killed?Because if not, then I dont' think there's ever incentive for the humans to risk trying to kill a wolf, better to just work around them..but yeah, I think super scrambling and gassing are really problematic.. validity check is pretty sweet

Examples of validity check queries, where the terminal will respond true/false:

"Someone is in C-6 right now."
"Lightdarkness is in C-6 right now."
"C-6 has a gas terminal."
"There's someone at a gas terminal right now."
"There was someone at a gas terminal last phase."
"There was someone at a gas terminal on phase X."
"Lightdarkness tried to kill Tasselfoot last phase."
"Lightdarkness tried to kill someone last phase."
"Someone tried to kill Lightdarkness last phase."
"Lightdarkness has used a gas terminal."
"Lightdarkness has killed someone using a gas terminal."
"Lightdarkness was killed by a gas terminal."
"Lightdarkness used a gas terminal last phase."
"C-6 has changed since the last time I was there."
"Someone has found one of the power generators."
"Someone has found the door to Metal Gear." (Side note: the inspiration for the victory objective was actually Where In The World Is Carmen Sandiego. I'm sure someone actually watched that show. Remember how they had to find the the stolen item, the warrant, and the thief to win? Same principle. Remember how Rockapella used to sing "THE WARRANT!" in harmony when they found it? Not the same principle.)

Basically the only forbidden questions are ones that involve peoples' statuses as wolf/human.

Bad queries:
"Lightdarkness is a wolf."
"I have encountered a wolf before."
"There is a wolf at a gas terminal."
"Lightdarkness was killed by a wolf." etc.

Keep in mind that for gas terminal to work, the gasser has to know pretty much exactly where you're going. This encourages lying about where you'll be only if the enemy knows where a gas terminal is! If the wolves don't know any gas terminals, you're pretty safe. But if there's always someone in a particular room like, for example, C-6, the wolves would be smart to gas it. Then go there and smash the terminal. The wolf location report is primarily meant to keep humans on the move instead of hanging out in the same rooms harvesting information. Plus, exploration is necessary because the humans don't automatically win if the wolves are all dead. They have a mission to accomplish, and the fact that they've killed all the enemies won't stop some of them from killing each other out of paranoia. Of course, if the humans can communicate the fact that everyone needs to get to a psychic terminal and see that the wolves are dead, it's game over as soon as the humans figure out what rooms they need to be in to trigger end-of-game.

(But this is another fun opportunity for the wolves. Hack the psychic terminal to say all the wolves are dead. This game is so full of possibilities.)

On the other hand, if enough humans are dead that they cannot conceivably carry out their objective (remember, it takes 4 to trigger end-of-game with the current setup), wolves automatically win.

Upon further evaluation, superscrambler is an overpowered move. Basically if the wolves are getting their butts kicked they can use it. However, this means that the humans can be on the verge of collecting enough evidence to figure the whole thing out, and lose because of the superscrambler. In a game that's about collecting a bunch of evidence it doesn't seem right to have a weapon that renders all evidence useless. In addition, it's one of the few terminals that is only useful for one side, and it's far too useless for the other. Superscrambler is out.

[evilbutterfly]

For clarification: wolves are told humans' positions before they move? So like, if I'm in B1 and want to move to E4, the wolves would be told I'm in B1, decide to gas B1, but I'd be in E4 by the time it happened? Basically, only if you stay in the same room would they know where you are, right? Just wanna make sure.

Oh, and I think if wolves can smash terminals, so can humans. That way you could put terminals in that are good for wolves so that the humans try and find and smash them. This could work well with the validity terminal. You find that D6 is a super scrambler (which a human would of course smash) and smash it. Later you use the validity terminal to see if "Anybody other than me has been to D6." If you find this to be true, you post on the forums "I'm thinking of checking out D6, but I don't wanna check it if anybody else has been there." A wolf may tell you they don't think it's a good room, so you'd raise suspicions for them. Just a thought.

And ideas for terminals....I can't think of any. If I were to play this game once or twice, maybe I would have more ideas, though

Oh, and somebody should move this to the new forums.

Originally Posted by evilbutterfly

For clarification: wolves are told humans' positions before they move? So like, if I'm in B1 and want to move to E4, the wolves would be told I'm in B1, decide to gas B1, but I'd be in E4 by the time it happened? Basically, only if you stay in the same room would they know where you are, right? Just wanna make sure.

The wolves are told where the humans are before anyone moves, correct. Otherwise it would be far too easy for the wolves to simply hang out by gas terminals and gas any rooms they know they're not in. Gas terminals are supposed to be about anticipating movement.

Originally Posted by evilbutterfly

Oh, and I think if wolves can smash terminals, so can humans. That way you could put terminals in that are good for wolves so that the humans try and find and smash them.

I'm thinking humans should be able to smash terminals also.

[blahblah18]

ohhhh ok, I'm fine with gas terminals then. Misconception cleaered

I plan on hosting TWG X. I'm already working out the plot and I have a room distribution laid out in my Notepad. However, I don't want to reveal it, because since part of the game is exploration, you'll have to see for yourself.

2 optional side quests are available that will grant the person who complete them great benefits. One is easier to complete, but the benefit is less. One is harder to complete, but the benefit is greater. Both quests have to be discovered to be activated. In addition, they are private (in other words, other players won't know if someone has activated them.) Both must be completed by the person who activated them, unless the person actively chooses to transfer the quest to another player.

2 things:

1) re: Alert Mode. After Alert Mode is triggered, all the guards will run to a random room on that floor which have a non-Sneaker character on their next movement phase (which happens after the player's movement phase). If you're still there and you haven't moved, you get shot to death by the guards, unless you're a Sneaker. This is to a) increase the benefits of being a Sneaker - they seemed a bit underpowered before, and b) create a bit more chaos when Alert Mode happens.

2) Since this is less a TWG variant than a completely new game idea, it's my intellectual property. I will be the only person to host games of this type until it's balanced. This doesn't mean I discourage development advice - in fact, I encourage it - it just means that I'm going to be keeping some quality control on it until it's ready for the big time. This isn't me being arrogant, this is me caring about something I've created. I hope you all respect that and I hope you all enjoy it. I do this stuff for you.

[Afrobean]

The more you describe this, the more this seems less like a TWG and more like a RPG. I still like the idea though. I'm just thinking that maybe this game shouldn't count as a TWG and should function independently from TWG.

[lightdarkness]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

The more you describe this, the more this seems less like a TWG and more like a RPG. I still like the idea though. I'm just thinking that maybe this game shouldn't count as a TWG and should function independently from TWG.

Exactly what I was going to point out.

Perhaps it can stay in this forum, but a different "variant" of the game, such as jrTWG vs TWG

[flypie743]

It could be TWRPG.

The Werewolf Roleplaying Game.

[HansSky]

10 extra cool points for flypie.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by flypie743

It could be TWRPG.

The Werewolf Roleplaying Game.

Who wants to bet that that name sticks like eb's jTWG?

Not me. The prime emphasis is on exploration, so I want the name to reflect that somehow.

[evilbutterfly]

How about just drop Werewolf and call it THE Game?

And Squeek, I still think there should be more than just 3 roles to pick. Also, will wolves have different roles they can pick? That may make it more interesting.

[blahblah18]

why shoudl their be wolves at all?
we can jt go all the way, and have it all the players vs NPCs created by the host.. that way iot forces us to
a) know we can all work together, and moreimportantly
B) forcve us to win throuh your cool objectives...

unless you liek the idea of not knowing who to trust.. but that msay make it too difficult.. we'll see

[alainbryden]

Originally Posted by Chardish

I plan on hosting TWG X

The prime emphasis is on exploration, so I want the name to reflect that somehow.

Introducing:

TWG Xplore

:P

Originally Posted by blahblah18

why shoudl their be wolves at all?
we can jt go all the way, and have it all the players vs NPCs created by the host.. that way iot forces us to
a) know we can all work together, and moreimportantly
B) forcve us to win throuh your cool objectives...

unless you liek the idea of not knowing who to trust.. but that msay make it too difficult.. we'll see

Now you're thinking of it being an RPG too much. In an RPG, traditionally the enemies are controlled by the DM. In this, the enemies are your fellow players, and they're operating in the same world you are with the same rules and constraints. You have to figure them out by their behavior.

Here's the revised combat system.

Precedence 5 - gas
Precedence 4 - renegades
Precedence 3 - warriors, wolves
Precedence 2 - sneakers, hackers, enemy guards
Precedence 1 - scientists

Basically, killers of the highest precedence do their killing first. Then everyone killed dies, and a new round of killing begins. This continues until everyone has tried to kill. Obviously, if you're dead, you can't kill. Characters of the same precedence get their kills at the same time, and if both try to kill each other, neither resolves. There's also the 2v1 principle (if 2 players try to kill a 3rd simultaneously, and the 3rd tries to kill both 1 and 2, 1 and 2 win. Thus you can overpower someone by ganging up on them.)

NOTE: You cannot pick renegade or scientist immediately. They are special classes with special purposes that will be revealed if you find out how to unlock them.

Example round:
We have a renegade, a warrior, and a sneaker in the room. The renegade chooses to kill the warrior, the warrior chooses to kill the renegade and the sneaker, the sneaker chooses to kill the renegade.

The renegade "resolves" first since he's got the highest precedence, and he kills the warrior. The warrior is now dead, so he can't kill anyone (even the sneaker, with a lower precedence than the warrior.) The sneaker gets his turn next, and kills the renegade. (This works even though he's of a higher precedence.)

Example round #2:
We have 2 warriors and a wolf. Warrior-A chooses to kill Warrior-B, Warrior-B chooses to kill the wolf, and the wolf chooses to kill Warrior-A and Warrior-B.

They all resolve simultaneously. B and the Wolf cancel each other out, since they're against each other. A kills B, since B is not attempting to kill A. The wolf also kills A, since A is not attempting to kill the wolf. The wolf is the only one left alive.


Any questions?