jTWG needs a couple more architectural revamps.

[Charlotte21]

I've read through TWGs and the jTWG and the ideas threads for both, and I personally LOVE the idea of jTWG and TWG both. But I see some thought process that is making jTWG slow and barely pales in comparison to a TWG, and I see things that make it so jTWG will never get that many members.

TWG has a lot of avid users, and a lot of intelligence going on, and as you can see from the jTWG the first game was pretty bad. It was slow, there wasn't much deep thought or attempts to make things smarter going on. The win of the humans was absolute luck in my opinion.

Now, I can see it getting better, but not with the current set-up because:

1. People can't be in TWG and jTWG at the same time. Part of this (since there will also be two running at the same time) leaves a lot of the complex TWG-routined thinkers out of the game. Where do new players learn from except the people who have their own TWG style and good thought-process. The best way to get a feel for the game is not reading through TWG, but playing with complex players and putting in an arguement or thought, and seeing reactions from developed-TWG-minds.

Another part of me can see the flipside of this thought, in the fact that if you allowed jTWG and TWG to have the same people, it WOULD just be the same avidly adamant players.

2. Secondly, jTWG needs to have reward banners. Probably the smartest thing to do would be to have the same banners, but different colored bubbles for jTWG. I'd have to say that jTWG NEEDS to have new users come through, so the games overall get more variation and don't start to get totally based on personality and past games. Not much variation, but a little is good.

Of course there will be, but what I foresee with this new usergroup is not as many new players coming. Thus, I think a smart thing to do would be to get jTWG banners, or add jTWG bubbles to the banners, because this gets more banners seen on the forum, and more users see these prestigious signatures and say "I want to be a part of that." or "He's a cool forum-user, I want to be like him/her."

3. Considering it seems there is some opinion that you should have to play in a jTWG before you can play in a TWG (I've seen it, I don't know if this is a well-liked idea, or even noted idea, but it IS logical...) and since jTWG doesn't look to have promising popularity if a person can't be in jTWG and TWG at the same time, as well as the fact that the first game bit the big one. It looks like it's live may be shortlived, and then there would definately be less new players in TWGs (which would be bad for me to say the least )

I can understand if a veteran TWGer wouldn't want to have new players that much because it would take down some of the high-level and layered thought processes in the game, but on the flipside not knowing EVERYONE's personality probably does add a lot to the required input and keeps some variety. Additionally, not everyone is going to be able to stay interested and avid forever, and if there is no new members then by law of human nature it will die. (This is pure speculation and thinking much farther into the future, though true if my postulations have validity...)

In light of these two things, I think having TWG and jTWG signatures by people who play even if they haven't won any games is also a smart thing to do by all users who play them. (Albeit this is not related to the topic at hand is a sidebar of opinion. Don't take a note of this when contemplating the overall structure of jTWG and it's correspondence to TWG)

I understand that I am new here, so my opinion is probably next-to-worthless, but I must say that I can see three simple things that would probably help out jTWG a lot, and subsequently, help out aspiring TWGers a lot.

1.) Allow and encourage jTWG to have some "esteemed" or "veteran" players even if they are in another game. Someone who will FOR SURE try to raise the intelligence level of the game (Like Tass, who I must say even though I am new here, is a genius at this game). Keep it ratio'd so there is still more new players than not, but I think having good players with a good feel for the game and good logic (even if they are playing in another game) would be fair.

Additionally, I think part of the jTWG should for sure have people who have never signed up before. This keeps new people experimenting and trying the game and seeing if it is a good hobby for them to get into.

Something like, 2 veteran players (even if they are in the other TWG), 2 completey brand-new players, and the rest is anyone (unless they are in the other TWG).

2.) Make sure there is a requirement for jTWG players to have read ONE FULL TWG and jTWG BEFORE PLAYING It's a requirement for TWG, it should be the same for jTWG (Edit: I see that it is, but I think it should be stated in EVERY Sign-Up thread). This way people have SOME idea of how it works and the game cannot have fallacies such as "He didn't follow the rules, he's a wolf" and stupid things like that (which actually did appear). THATS NOT INTELLIGENT! THATS NOT PREPERATION FOR TWG! That's just giving wolves an easy win and takes 0.00% intelligence to pull off.

Lest, some people will still sign up and not follow the requirements but by requiring it, it is less likely, and thus, the game has a better probability of actually being good.

3.) Lastly, in lieu of the current sign-up rule, and correlation with the former ideas, Make "You must have played 1 jTWG/TWG game before to join a TWG" a finalized thought and requirement for TWGs. This makes it so jTWGs have more signifigance and members, and TWGs keep their high-veteran-desired-thinking-level. Nothing changes for the old players, just the new.

Overally I can see the fallacies in my own ideas, but I can see some good in them. If I thought they were perfect I would have made this a PM instead, but I can see they are not, and therefore made a thread about it to make further inquisition.

Charlotte

[flypie743]

I agree with everything you said here.

Oh and your opinion is not worthless to me, I know you :P


ps-sup charlotte lol

[whorlichan]

ego +1... like i really need it.

and, your points are valid, and mostly true already for what has been done. The jTWG was set up for new players to learn the ropes and get a shot at playing in a TWG, whereas otherwise, our high standards of entrance wouldn't have allowed them to enter.

we haven't, and won't, predetermine what the signups will be. they have and will be first come first serve. almost always, this includes new players (in 8 TWGs, we've had at least 2 new players in every single one... i believe. i can check my spreadsheet later to verify.)

and, it also won't be a rule that new players MUST play in a jTWG before joining a TWG. your post here alone shows that you have put alot of thought into the game and have read all of the threads. with that, i have no idea how good your logical thinking is, but i for one am willing to give you a shot at playing with the big boys. and there are others as well that will fall into this category. there will also be plenty of others that won't.

so, i look forward to seeing you in TWG X.

[whorlichan]

ah. god damn. this and the above post are Tass, not Whorli.

The principle quality we look for in TWG players is not experience, but soundness of thought process. The reason we reject some players from the big TWG is that not that they're experienced, but that they simply appear illogical.

Qualities of a good TWG player
Logical
Analytical
Introspective
Descriptive
Attentive
Aware
Intelligent
Careful reader

Qualities of a bad TWG player
Illlogical
Impulsive
Overanalytical
Inattentive
Paranoid
Terse
Unclear
Uncommitted

Remember that most of the qualities on the second list can be overcome with a little bit of experience. I've seen the jTWG as a place for people to acquire some of the habits on the first list before playing a real TWG and possibly screwing the humans over. As such, I don't think the jTWG needs to exist forever - it needs to exist only as long as there are people who feel unready for TWG. That's a reason why I don't think reward banners are necessary. I know my old stance on jTWG/TWG signups, however, seeing that many of the players in TWG who are also in jTWG (Jursey, M-A-C, Tsuteto, etc.) are beginning to find their own and people are beginning to figure out how they work, I think that having played a TWG should disqualify you from jTWG.

Just a thought.

[Charlotte21]

Originally Posted by flypie743

I agree with everything you said here.

Oh and your opinion is not worthless to me, I know you :P


ps-sup charlotte lol

Sup Flypie

Originally Posted by whorli who is actually tass in this post

ego +1... like i really need it.

and, your points are valid, and mostly true already for what has been done. The jTWG was set up for new players to learn the ropes and get a shot at playing in a TWG, whereas otherwise, our high standards of entrance wouldn't have allowed them to enter.

we haven't, and won't, predetermine what the signups will be. they have and will be first come first serve. almost always, this includes new players (in 8 TWGs, we've had at least 2 new players in every single one... i believe. i can check my spreadsheet later to verify.)

and, it also won't be a rule that new players MUST play in a jTWG before joining a TWG. your post here alone shows that you have put alot of thought into the game and have read all of the threads. with that, i have no idea how good your logical thinking is, but i for one am willing to give you a shot at playing with the big boys. and there are others as well that will fall into this category. there will also be plenty of others that won't.

so, i look forward to seeing you in TWG X.

You are removed from the next few TWG's but does that mean jTWG as well? I think a veteran player helps me and the other newbies learn how to listen, think through, and respond to each other by watching some of the ways you, a veteran player, listen, think through, and respond to us.

Originally Posted by Chardish

Qualities of a good TWG player
Logical
Analytical
Introspective
Descriptive
Attentive
Aware
Intelligent
Careful reader

Qualities of a bad TWG player
Illlogical
Impulsive
Overanalytical
Inattentive
Paranoid
Terse
Unclear
Uncommitted

Yea, I agree with all of those (except terse (sp?)), but I think one of the thing that really removes some of the bad qualities is having a few veteran players in the game to learn from.

Look at the first game: Lupin the 3rd was pretty genius. But he never got TOO deep, mainly because it would have gone past the tone or setting that was preset by people on day one. It seemed like because there was no one going into deeper thought, there was a predisposed feeling that deeper thought would make you lynched/wolfed quickly. I thereorize that a veteran player might remove something like this.

Honestly, in my opinion jTWG 1 was at least twofold worse than TWG 1.

[Afrobean]

Originally Posted by Charlotte

Honestly, in my opinion jTWG 1 was at least twofold worse than TWG 1.

Yea I noticed that as well. It seems that most of the players just wanted to vote for whoever already had good evidence. They didn't think anything through. Plus, they trusted my judgement on who a wolf is, which is not a good idea apparently, since all the people I was suspicious of turned out to be human. Those darn newbs.

In TWG1 it was all about bandwagoning also. People had the "Anyone but me" mentality which dictates that it doesn't matter who goes unless it's not me, even if we're lynching humans.

This is, of course, an easy way to hand victories to wolves.

[Tsuteto]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Yea I noticed that as well. It seems that most of the players just wanted to vote for whoever already had good evidence. They didn't think anything through. Plus, they trusted my judgement on who a wolf is, which is not a good idea apparently, since all the people I was suspicious of turned out to be human. Those darn newbs.

Except me. I PMed Lupin about the voting for kibbel, saying we should probably vote for someone else to see if anyone comes to his defense, or what he had to say. That's the main thing that Lupin feared of me, and thus why I died the first night. It was all because I was thinking a little TOO much, and just sharing it with him. Still want to know who Jursey was guarding.

And as for the ideas, they are all pretty good. But like you said, not perfect. I mean, those who have played in TWG cannot play in jTWG? What if we miss sign-ups then? Or how about we were killed early on? So yeah. I'm kinda going off of short term memory, so I don't remember everything you said. But for the most part, you had good points.

[blahblah18]

see its not that we want to exclude new players.. jusy dumb ones.. nForcer has played a solid game so far and shows he knows what's what, this post alone would lend me think that you could play as well most likely.
Remebmer, think of jTWG as Junior-Varsity, so I do kinda agree that if you've played in a TWG AND BEEN GOOD, then you shoudn't go back down to JV, however if it seems a little over your head or too deep and too much, then by all means go back to JV.

[psychic25]

I agree with many, if not all, of your points, Charlotte. I do look forward to seeing how you play in the jTWG.

Originally Posted by Charlotte21

2. Secondly, jTWG needs to have reward banners. Probably the smartest thing to do would be to have the same banners, but different colored bubbles for jTWG. I'd have to say that jTWG NEEDS to have new users come through, so the games overall get more variation and don't start to get totally based on personality and past games. Not much variation, but a little is good.

Don't worry, guys, I am planning to make reward banners for everybody, including the people who lost. I haven't had time, though (due to the fact that I have finals in two weeks) but I will be sure to make them as soon as I have time. :P

Also- didn't charlotte say that it was a good idea for one or two veterans to come and play with the newbies? Well, why not have the people who have "played in a TWG and been good", as blahblah puts it, act as the veterans when they come back to play in jTWG? It's a good way to give them more practice, no matter what their playing ability.