Old 11-15-2008, 04:16 PM   #1
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Default Idea for the next jTWG

I'm claiming this now because I want to fix any problems with it before I host it.

Over the years, we've used basically the same setup for jTWG, but I suspect this tried and true approach has lost much of its usefulness. The thing wrong with our regular jTWG setup (wolves w/MW, seer, guard) is that players come to rely heavily on one strategy: Seer come out day one, guardian guard the seer, wolves fumble around looking for the guardian. This lends itself to a "follow-the-seer" mentality and restricts what can happen in the game. jTWGs are supposed to teach new players what they need to play TWG; to actively strategize, communicate, think for themselves, and be on watch for deception. How are we going to teach them this if they are just laying back, trusting the given information, and bandwagon voting on every person who was "seered red"?

I browsed through some stuff and did some thinking, and I came up with this.

12 players.

3 Wolves
1 Master Wolf*

9 Humans
2 Special Humans, picked randomly from the following 4: Seer, Guardian, Psychic, Wolfsbane

*Master Wolf would be useless in a game without a seer, but the role will remain so that the wolves can't know if there's a seer or not.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

So basically everything is known about the game except the special roles. This one mystery element opens a surprising number of possiblities. It abates the solve-all seer and guard strategy and is overall a better learning environment - and isn't this what we're aiming for in jTWG?

Discuss, comment, critique, etc.
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Old 11-15-2008, 04:56 PM   #2
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

You could make it really confusing and have a "cursed seer".

(This is a terrible idea btw, mine that is)

Have like 75% chance seer gets the correct results, 25% chance the seer gets the wrong results. That way, there has to be more than just "well, you got seer'd!" to lynch someone. More thought provoking.

As for your idea, I think that it should be Seer or Guardian and Psychic or Wolfsbane. A game w/ a wolfsbane and a guard (I think) wouldn't be too much fun, unless there's cardflipping.

EDIT: Or have the "cursed seer" have 75% chance they get results, 25% chance they don't. Or something...
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

You still have the problem of following only the blues. It doesn't matter if it's a seer, new players are going to trust a blue.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:36 PM   #4
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

At least in this setup the seer can't just come out, because the other blue may not be the guardian.

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You still have the problem of following only the blues. It doesn't matter if it's a seer, new players are going to trust a blue.
Determining who is blue and who isn't is much more difficult in this game setup.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:40 PM   #5
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

I like the idea, but I think the best way to promote active strategising is by using masons. Their power is the ability to communicate truthfully. If you can fit masons in, then you would have something going.
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Old 11-15-2008, 06:47 PM   #6
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Quote:
Originally Posted by manti
I'm the seer. I seered 2 reds in a row. I'm coming out because even if there isn't a guard we still have 2 wolves down. They are freaky and iluswirl.
Quote:
Originally Posted by everyone else
Oh, Manti is the seer. Cool. He got the wolves. Let's kill them.
Freaky and ilu are killed. Manti was a wolf. He just got two humans killed because all the new players followed his lead.



What? But, Atz is on to something. I'm still thinking the original idea has flaws, BDN. But, I'm only poking holes in it to get it perfect.
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

I think that this is a better idea, whatever is chosen. I didn't use much strategy at all during the last game, and I followed Kirth's lead.

What if we didn't have a seer at all? Find the wolves completely by strategy. There could still be items or something that could give someone a one-time seering, but nothing permanent.
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:47 AM   #8
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

So, you're proposing a man hunt game-ish?
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

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Old 11-16-2008, 01:50 AM   #9
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

This is a good idea, if you ask me. The way that everyone follows the seer is why I've been trying to host that game I made for jTWG, honestly.

At the same time, though, I think it would be better to use a few other roles so that the new people at least know what they are. Maybe stick a pair of masons or a miller in there (if there's a game with a seer).
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Old 11-16-2008, 01:51 AM   #10
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Rzr, the whole point of what you posted when Manti fooled the humans into killing 2 humans is just part of the game. People have to learn from their mistakes sometime.

I suppose a man-hunt game wouldn't be all bad, provided we got some sort of hint here and there in the right direction, otherwise it's "let's just lynch anybody" and it's the easiest wolf victory ever.
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Old 11-16-2008, 02:01 AM   #11
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

I really like the idea (somewhat like what roundbox and me did in the last TWG) of giving out a lot of small roles instead of a couple big ones. If you could pick or create minor roles, it may go a long way to promoting activity (more people are blue, and feel more involved), but as far as everyone following one person, that's up to the players to not let happen.
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Old 11-16-2008, 02:28 AM   #12
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Flaw pretty much hit it. Kinda. You need small HUMAN roles. And that's only assuming you force special roles to be existant.

Now, listen up. Figuritively. There is only one way to assure that the new players don't play follow the leader. NO special roles. It doesn't matter if it's a seer. A guard. A psychic. An elemental. A mystery role. A mason. A vigilante. An epic god. It doesn't matter. If the new player sees a special role and think they can trust it, they're going to trust it. You can't get around that. Purple, blue, orange, maroon, it doesn't matter. The only way to achieve your goal is to have simply humans and wolves.
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Old 11-16-2008, 02:59 PM   #13
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Host that next game, it sounds awesome...

I didn't read the other posts, because I'm lazy, so if somebody pointed a problem with it, I am unware =P
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Old 11-16-2008, 03:04 PM   #14
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Right. How helpful.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

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Old 11-18-2008, 07:53 AM   #15
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Just trying to expand it and implement some suggestions. Feel free to comment further.

16 players.

4 Wolves
1 Master Wolf (gets an extra kill once during the game)*
1 Wolf Seer

12 Humans
2 Special Humans, picked from the following 4: Seer, Psychic, Wolfsbane, Vigilante
3 Masons
1 Red Miller*

*Master Wolf and Red Miller would be useless in a game without a seer, but the role will remain so that the wolves can't know if there's a seer or not (Doesn't matter for the miller)
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Old 11-18-2008, 08:22 AM   #16
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

BDN, I really hope you're including the special roles among the total human count. Otherwise, wolves might as well not play. Also, if you're still going for the original idea of not playing follow the leader, you're still off. I'm not sure why people aren't getting it, but you can't have special roles in the game without someone going to follow them. As long as they're human. It's either everyone's special, or nobody's special.

P.S. Shadow, are you really trying to tell me that a game where one wolf against x humans is the easiest wolf victory ever? Because... Yeah.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

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Old 11-18-2008, 09:10 AM   #17
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

^Rzr, I don't think his complaint was about bandwagoning players, but was about the whole Seer + Gaurd combo, which would be less possible to do if, there was a chance that there wasn't a gaurd (Or seer for that matte >.>) >_>

Correct me if I'm wrong Neon...

Or better yet, just ignore me...
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Old 11-18-2008, 09:18 AM   #18
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

Well, the balance of BDN's game feels shaky to me. Something about 5 blues on 4 wolves makes me wonder. The Red Miller helps, but... Some sort of cursed human would probably be good. Dunno, it'd be a lot of fun. The thing is, if the humans knock a wolf off in the beginning the wolves are at bad odds. The game could either be great or go quick and suck. Hopefully, it'll be good.

@ Ruritsu: If he's going for the original goal he's failed miserably. If he's just looking to make a cool game he's succeeded.
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i had a mri the other day it was the best song i heard in years

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More of a joke than the time I deleted all the credits on the site.
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yeah my goldfish think im a riot they do this thing where they turn upside down and float to the top of the tank

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Old 11-19-2008, 08:09 AM   #19
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Default Re: Idea for the next jTWG

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BDN, I really hope you're including the special roles among the total human count. Otherwise, wolves might as well not play.

Why on earth would I not include them?

Also, if you're still going for the original idea of not playing follow the leader, you're still off. I'm not sure why people aren't getting it, but you can't have special roles in the game without someone going to follow them. As long as they're human. It's either everyone's special, or nobody's special.

Well of course people are going to rely on the blues' powers. That's what they're there for: to help humans. However, the point of this game is to not totally eliminate dependence on blues but diminish it to the point that greens can actually play. There may not be a seer, and even if there is, they might not provide results (especially if there's no guard.) Thus, the rest of the humans are more encouraged to go out and talk to people get info, and check for liars, which is what they're supposed to do.
Quote:
Well, the balance of BDN's game feels shaky to me. Something about 5 blues on 4 wolves makes me wonder. The Red Miller helps, but... Some sort of cursed human would probably be good. Dunno, it'd be a lot of fun. The thing is, if the humans knock a wolf off in the beginning the wolves are at bad odds. The game could either be great or go quick and suck. Hopefully, it'll be good.

Cursed Human would only add another potential confirmed human, which with the format of the game can already climb to 5 - nearly a third of the game's players.

@ Ruritsu: If he's going for the original goal he's failed miserably. If he's just looking to make a cool game he's succeeded.

LOL
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