Fair Use / Copyright Law & FFR

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by reuben_tate

I think the money they do make might be some workaround or loop-hole of some sort. You see, the osu members can pay for a "donation" that costs $4/month that entitles them to additional features in the game. I don't know if just calling it a "donation" makes it ok though.

Another thing I heard was that the money is used for the upkeep and maintenance of the site (which could possibly be considered non-profit if the cost of maintenance is equal to the amount of "donations"), but from what I've heard, the developer/owner of the game "Peppy" has quit his day job to entirely devote his time to osu so I figure he must be making some money to at least make a living of some sort, idk.

From my understanding, that would be okay IF legal documentation was kept on the administrative end (in terms of where every penny went, by who and whatnot). However, since internet law is still young, there are still many many loopholes that can be gotten around. For example, mega.co.nz is a loophole.

EDIT: However, there is something in the back of my mind that still tells me that just because 'Peppy' has yet to be caught dosen't mean what he is doing is legal. I don't know. I'm gonna reread this doctrine and try to find out what I can on that instance.

[Fission]

i would think that osu! is popular enough that some record company is going to catch wind and could take legal action against osu! if they so chose. however, this hasn't happened yet for osu! so in reality, what is the likelihood that this could happen to FFR? FFR is more under the radar than osu! is (look at the player count), so there should be even less of a chance of legal action being taken against FFR under the same circumstances.

can one of the admins comment on what osu! is doing and how it compares to FFR in terms of using copyright material? this is a pretty big deal and it could mean a lot for FFR's future.

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by Fission

i would think that osu! is popular enough that some record company is going to catch wind and could take legal action against osu! if they so chose. however, this hasn't happened yet for osu! so in reality, what is the likelihood that this could happen to FFR? FFR is more under the radar than osu! is (look at the player count), so there should be even less of a chance of legal action being taken against FFR under the same circumstances.

Well, keep in mind FFR is non-profit. We do not profit off of anything on this website so we are WAY WAY lower on the radar, perhaps not even on the radar at all, in all honesty.

Originally Posted by Fission

can one of the admins comment on what osu! is doing and how it compares to FFR in terms of using copyright material? this is a pretty big deal and it could mean a lot for FFR's future.

I know nothing about osu! really besides what people are telling me, I'd like to hear a comment about this as well.

[Fission]

even if you don't know much about osu!, the important thing to note is that osu! uses whatever it wants in terms of content and the staff evidently doesn't care if it's copyrighted or not.

i don't know if this has been touched on in this thread or in other places, but i'd like to point out that when FFR was told to take down copyrighted content in the past, it was when copyright law hadn't established itself like it has now. at this point in time, it's more mature so things are different now from what i have seen.

[Xiz]

And that is a really dangerous approach for osu! to take.

And as long as FFR did comply with such a request, honestly there isn't much of an issue I see in my eyes.

Like, if a user submits a file that we do not have permission for, the submitter agree sthat however spectacular their file is, it can be removed at any time in the senario where a record label / copyright holder of said works requests the removal.

[Fission]

i know it's dangerous, but the fact that it remains unchanged in it's offering for this long speaks pretty loudly.

also, i wouldn't mind some kind of agreement like the one you described between ffr and the simfile author as a supplement to the already in-place permission system.

[alloyus]

Keybeat was infinitely smaller than osu! when it was told to take down the konami/bemani songs, didnt read thread whatsoever except to skim this page but just because you have a small community-driven site doesn't mean it won't be targeted. I saw you say stuff like that has changed, too, and if that's true, then great Keybeat was definitely a couple of years ago, close to the same time FFR was down and told to provide proof for resonance

[reuben_tate]

From the perspective of people on the osu forums:
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/150066/hi...yright&start=0

[Fission]

i never said FFR won't be targeted, i said the likelihood is much smaller. you can't deny that osu! has been stepping on much bigger toes than konami/bemani for years now. as was already stated, if copyright holders still want to be really possessive, files will just get taken down.

the only problem i could see to this is everybody submits files that there isn't explicit permission for and lots of files start getting taken down.

EDIT: btw, that osu! thread is mostly speculation with nothing definitive to back it up.

[reuben_tate]

Also, I found the thread that I started on osu about copyright but it didn't get much attention:
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/140306?hilit=+copyright

I do find it a little silly that osu can get away with it while (possibly) making money while we at ffr have to acquire permissions for every single artist even though ffr isn't making a dime.

EDIT: Yeah, I know it's only speculation. I just wanted to give people a broader perspective on other people's views on the topic.

[bmah]

Originally Posted by Fission

can one of the admins comment on what osu! is doing and how it compares to FFR in terms of using copyright material? this is a pretty big deal and it could mean a lot for FFR's future.

I have yet to acquaint myself with osu!-related material, but from what you guys have been describing, it sounds (in regards to degree of legality) no different than having a simfile database where people freely put up songs they've stepped. Pretty much every major simfile database has been gone over the past several years, so that says something about osu!

Originally Posted by Fission

i wouldn't mind some kind of agreement like the one you described between ffr and the simfile author as a supplement to the already in-place permission system.

Not a bad idea. I just hope it doesn't get out of hand though with everyone taking that sort of risk just to step whatever they want from any artist.

Originally Posted by alloyus

Keybeat was infinitely smaller than osu! when it was told to take down the konami/bemani songs

No, from what I recall, stargroup took down Konami songs on his own accord due to not wanting to take any chances (that's what he told me when I asked him why years ago). Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he received any demands to take them down by force.

[alloyus]

Oh wow I honestly thought there was a post about it or something and they were doing it a little bit at a time, sorry about that x.x

[Fission]

Originally Posted by bmah

Pretty much every major simfile database has been gone over the past several years, so that says something about osu!

i think it's because osu! doesn't host any of it's files centrally like these databases did, so it can't be held liable. ffr could adopt this approach, but it would force people to download simfiles to their computer instead of using the convenience of loading them in flash.

EDIT: osu! might actually host these files centrally, but it has proven to be resilient much in the same way sites like mega.co.nz are (they forfeit all responsibility)

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by Fission

i think it's because osu! doesn't host any of it's files centrally like these databases did, so it can't be held liable. ffr could adopt this approach, but it would force people to download simfiles to their computer instead of using the convenience of loading them in flash.

nty

[reuben_tate]

Decided to scour more of the osu forums, I'm pretty bad at searching so this is pretty much everything you're gonna see from their side. Don't know if this will give anyone more insight or not on the situation.
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/107567?hilit=+illegal
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/30831?hilit=+copyright
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/65442?hilit=+copyright
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/116468?hilit=+copyright
https://osu.ppy.sh/forum/t/140636?hilit=+copyright

[Fission]

Originally Posted by yo man im awesome

nty

it's a pretty significant downside, i agree. i don't think it's the right direction for ffr either. just a possible alternative, that's all.

[qqwref]

While FFR may fall under fair use, keep in mind that companies can and will pull a copyright claim on you even if you are using their work fairly. Look at all the youtube videos that are technically fair use but are taken down for copyright reasons. And if they do take legal action, either you have to hire a good lawyer and plead your case in court - and hope the judge agrees with you, because otherwise you will have to pay a LOT of money - or come to a smaller, but still significant, settlement. Basically my point is that, just because the law is on your side, doesn't mean what you're doing is a good idea.

tl;dr let's keep getting proper permissions

[Xiz]

Originally Posted by bmah

Not a bad idea. I just hope it doesn't get out of hand though with everyone taking that sort of risk just to step whatever they want from any artist.

I guess what could happen is when a user submits to the batch, they send screenshots / emails showing their attempts at contacting them. (And this will be iffy to decide what is legit or not, but professional email adresses / agrents / record labels, etc)

Originally Posted by qqwref

While FFR may fall under fair use, keep in mind that companies can and will pull a copyright claim on you even if you are using their work fairly. Look at all the youtube videos that are technically fair use but are taken down for copyright reasons. And if they do take legal action, either you have to hire a good lawyer and plead your case in court - and hope the judge agrees with you, because otherwise you will have to pay a LOT of money - or come to a smaller, but still significant, settlement. Basically my point is that, just because the law is on your side, doesn't mean what you're doing is a good idea.

tl;dr let's keep getting proper permissions

In regards to YouTube, all that will happen is your youtube video will be removed or disabled within certain regions / countries. Now if this was 2006-8, a C&D letter would be sent to the individual.
(I have experienced both instances, in 2007 and 2012 - and my how things are better now then they were back then)

And while your statement is somewhat true, since remember there is no profit being gained what so ever in any way, shape, or form, I can guarentee that all they will do in a worst case senario is send a C&D letter. If FFR dosen't comply after 2(ish) requests, then legal action would be expected.

So I guess after thinking this over, I see something like this happening:


- If a lack of response has been given after 3 requests (with at-least 2 different meathods of contact), the user must attach their emails within the submission folder showing documentation proof of an attempt to contact.
- At any time the users file can be removed from FFR at any time without warning.
- (Perhaps these files should never be tokens either, in-case they do get removed)

Keep in mind we have been talking about worse case scenario.


On another note, since we credit each artists with homepage links and little facts about them when songs are released (assuming the homepage keeps getting updated like before) we can be considered musical bloggers, which is another area we can fall into in regards to copyright law.