Queue/Batch Discussion Thread v2

[hi19hi19]

Yo I don't mind some people getting special privileges if they put in hella extra work to make this site run. Example AJ, bmah, the judges, etc.
I have no problem with such people getting an internal batch because the work they do shows they are committed to the site and all that good shit.

Especially when it comes to making sure there are proper level difficulty files for a tournament. You put in all the time to run a tournament, go ahead and take some perks too. No hate. I'm pretty much only going to complain if a file gets in that is so bad it would have been rejected with like a [---] rating *coughJae*

And this is coming from the #1 person on the site who wishes there were no submission caps and more frequent batches. Just because I'm kinda jelly that I don't get in an internal batch doesn't mean I can't realize why said people get the privilege. If I got off my ass and actually judged maybe I could be able to submit for this kind of thing.

[TC_Halogen]

@ Xiz (and Kommi, I guess?): A mature judge will judge the file based off of how they see fit. Most judges are very skilled in construction of simfiles, so they likely will receive higher ratings. It's not because there's a bias, it's because the judges know how to minimize their mistakes. Occasionally, a judge will make a file that's a bit ambitious and it doesn't make the cut -- I've done it before... my Terror to Terror file got a pretty resounding NO from the judges because it was a ridiculously overstepped FSO-rated file, haha.

Xiz: there are various people that would probably be willing to take a look at your file, it's just a matter of looking around. From experience, Carlos (Wayward Vagabond) is very open to checking people's files. I'm up for looking at your file too. From what I saw in the previous batch (or two), you definitely have an understanding of what makes a good file that's properly represented, you just need a nudge in the right direction. A lot of newer simfile artists need this nudge. Once you get going, you'll be set.

[hi19hi19]

Every judge on FFR is capable of making a file that will 100% be accepted.

Like I could easily just submit "safe" files like that and have 100% acceptance from here on out, no question. But that's boring as fuc so I submit "ambitious" (I like that term AJ) files and some get shot down and some end up being a lot of fun.

[Razor]

wats a jadge ????????????

[thesunfan]

The only reason I'm posting in this beaten-to-death-horse is because I feel like, despite the (hopeful) difference of how they go about trying to make their point and how I will, I agree with Krunky and Middie (holyshit). I COMPLETELY understand that Jae leaving left Kayla with a less than optimal time-frame, and I think she's done a good job with the tourney, certainly moreso than the last official. That being said, there was still time to prepare for the possibility of a tiebreaker in D6. The file wouldn't have gotten the exact same treatment as per usual, but I think it would still be better to have more people look at it and have the process be closer to the actual submission process. Yes, I know that files have bypassed the normal judging process "when needed." And, differing from Middie and Krunky here, I understand that this is sometimes necessary. HOWEVER, I still think that this could have been avoided in a more proper manner. As for "all of the judges being capable of making a file suitable for FFR," I agree, HOWEVER, I'm not sure we want the judges making files in such small time-constraints.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by thesunfan

The only reason I'm posting in this beaten-to-death-horse is because I feel like, despite the (hopeful) difference of how they go about trying to make their point and how I will, I agree with Krunky and Middie (holyshit). I COMPLETELY understand that Jae leaving left Kayla with a less than optimal time-frame, and I think she's done a good job with the tourney, certainly moreso than the last official. That being said, there was still time to prepare for the possibility of a tiebreaker in D6. The file wouldn't have gotten the exact same treatment as per usual, but I think it would still be better to have more people look at it and have the process be closer to the actual submission process. Yes, I know that files have bypassed the normal judging process "when needed." And, differing from Middie and Krunky here, I understand that this is sometimes necessary. HOWEVER, I still think that this could have been avoided in a more proper manner. As for "all of the judges being capable of making a file suitable for FFR," I agree, HOWEVER, I'm not sure we want the judges making files in such small time-constraints.

Middie does not think that any file should ever go through an internal batch and that all should have to go through a regular batch process. Which I explained was impossible for events like these. You're not making their point, you're making a different one that a tiebreaker could have been started early on. Which is also not really the case because we'd have to make several of many difficulties because you never know when or if it's going to happen.

None of you even know how many people looked over the file and keep making assumptions, which makes this even more annoying to keep going over time and time again. (I listed previously the people that were involved in looking over files that were in the internal)

I'm done responding to this, I explained everything quite clearly yesterday and if people don't read it through then they don't. bmah and JX are the game managers and they make the ultimate decision on what does go in to game. I never once went and added anything without review or permission from a game manager.

If they want to remove fractured sunshine from 112 people that made top 16 to have it go through the batch that's their decision to make. If fractured gets removed then every file that went through an internal for this has to be removed as well which means removing around 5 maybe 6 from public ranks. I leave it to the game management team whom approved the files and process in the first place.

[AlexDest]

Originally Posted by krunkykai22

Well I know one way for this situation to not happen. How about prepping for what could be the "impossible" For the official tournament batch, there should have been enough files chosen for such possibilities. I'm sorry, I don't give a fucking shit who is hosting it or who is judging the batches, but if such circumstances can happen, why weren't the compensated for? Why weren't the thought about BEFORE the official. FFR has had enough officials to know that ANYTHING is possible.

Even with the amount of charts accepted in the queue, it would get gradually difficult to pick tiebreakers. Although... this statement does throw in some ideas. We could put up a special batch just for the official tournaments, which would take serious planning for difficulty choices for each round in each division, tiebreaker choices, rating the charts, etc. However, with the 6 month gap official tournaments, this plan could only be possible if the tournaments were back to being hosted for each year. Internal batches are unfortunately, the last resort in order to get stuff in in order to fulfill tiebreakers. Just gonna have to roll with it until there is a better solution.

[kommisar]

I've never had a file flat out rejected from ffr maybe I'm bribing the judges with my massive simfile artist smegma stash



Trust the judges. Most of them have quite the resume when it comes to making files and StepMania projects

[Sky Kitten]

Alright, guys. Time to get to massive deleting. No more drama from this point on, please. If you guys plan to have any more discussions, keep them civil.

Thank you.

[kommisar]

Tbh I think "drama" (as long as not offensive) is necessary to spark debate on key issues for the game's progression. This is the most activity this thread has had in a while and lots of great points were made.

[TC_Halogen]

Originally Posted by krunkykai22

e.

So, AJ & Choof, don't come fucking shooting ya mouths off when obviously you can NOT tell me I'm fucking wrong here. As a co-HOST of the official, AJ, you should have fucking thought about situations that could arise and been professional.

situation a: plan for a tiebreaker for every round for the official and take double the length to plan or longer to feasibly cover every spot

situation b: structure the tournament with accepted files, use accepted files for tiebreaking whenever possible, and if a situation arises with a range that wasn't covered in the batch outside of the direct structure of the tournament, postpone the tournament to get a fair file and potentially not receive a file that correlates with the tournament structure

situation c: structure the tournament with accepted files, use accepted files for tiebreaking whenever possible, and then plan to fill a situation when it arises immediately

what I've said before to both you and Middie, it is impossible to predict tiebreakers anywhere in the tournament. We had nearly the entire tournament structure filled out with no worries, but when the tiebreaker in D6 showed up, there was nothing in our possession from TWO BATCHES and other files stockpiled. You and Middie are directly targeting me because there were five other files inserted into the game without batch judgment to introduce the tournament, but no one even bothered to mention those when they could have just as easily been looked up to see if they were judged. Had the tiebreaker in D6 not happened, this whole argument would have easily been avoided. In the case of the tournament, I'd much rather satisfy the players playing in the tournament by keeping the tournament moving than interrupting the tournament by trying to get one file.

I'd be much more inclined to be respectful to you, but since you're sitting here flaming me for doing the right thing, I'll just say this: you really need to stop crying over something that you have absolutely no control over. Aside from Middie, no one else was complaining, and the reception towards my simfile was positive. You guys are sitting here saying that I circumvented batch submission as if I inserted the file specifically to avoid the batch, when in reality, I inserted the file to keep the tournament moving.

You can keep sitting here cussing up a storm as if it will solidify your opinion, but honestly, it's just making you look really whiny.

EDIT:

Tbh I think "drama" (as long as not offensive) is necessary to spark debate on key issues for the game's progression. This is the most activity this thread has had in a while and lots of great points were made.

I don't mind discussion, but you can't sit here and tell me this isn't rude/intended to target:

Originally Posted by krunkykai22

e.

So, AJ & Choof, don't come fucking shooting ya mouths off when obviously you can NOT tell me I'm fucking wrong here. As a co-HOST of the official, AJ, you should have fucking thought about situations that could arise and been professional.

It's quite easy to eloquently make a suggestion like thesunfan and Charu had earlier in the thread, as opposed to annoying/targeting posts with caps lock/bold to make a snappy emphasis to make a point that really has no merit being made.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by AlexDest

Even with the amount of charts accepted in the queue, it would get gradually difficult to pick tiebreakers. Although... this statement does throw in some ideas. We could put up a special batch just for the official tournaments, which would take serious planning for difficulty choices for each round in each division, tiebreaker choices, rating the charts, etc. However, with the 6 month gap official tournaments, this plan could only be possible if the tournaments were back to being hosted for each year. Internal batches are unfortunately, the last resort in order to get stuff in in order to fulfill tiebreakers. Just gonna have to roll with it until there is a better solution.

A tournament specific batch could certainly be tried. I think with the general amount of files that are accepted and how difficult it is to pick up specific difficulties that it will still be tough though.

Originally Posted by kommisar

Tbh I think "drama" (as long as not offensive) is necessary to spark debate on key issues for the game's progression. This is the most activity this thread has had in a while and lots of great points were made.

I have no issues with a debate at all, but when it's to the point where people are just cussing and making rude comments it's just pointless then.

Edit: I still really think that overall they should try the system with keeping the "batch" open at all times. The idea was received well and never tried. If people aren't waiting months for batches I don't think they'll be flooding it. Then periodically x amount of files can be bundled and given to x amount of judges. This would help in instances where we're short judges too. It might be time to allow more judges the access to the email to be able to bundle the files as well in this case. Oh and also have an acceptance number rather than it switching every time. I think this would help with overall quality of charts, flow of the files coming in and maybe even help with tournament issues.

[Wayward Vagabond]

Yo krunky I guarantee you that I will step a better file than you 9 times out of ten. Even the weakest of the judges will step a better file than you 7 times out of ten.

[kommisar]

Yeah I guess his comments were a little counter-productive haha.

Generally speaking though I love to read heated discussions when intelligible


I pitched this idea to JX a while back but he said it wouldn't work because of laziness which I guess is true lol: kbo's judging system. Files can be submitted any time and judges judge when they can. Once enough judges have played said files, a verdict was automatically entered and the game manager oversaw the final verdict. This would require constant activity from judges but would lessen the work load all at once. People would have a monthly file
Cap like osu does, and judges would have that monthly deadline to judge after said file is submitted. The coded system on kbo did a lot automatically and AJ can vouch for how useful it was

[AlexDest]

Originally Posted by kommisar

I pitched this idea to JX a while back but he said it wouldn't work because of laziness which I guess is true lol: kbo's judging system. Files can be submitted any time and judges judge when they can. Once enough judges have played said files, a verdict was automatically entered and the game manager oversaw the final verdict. This would require constant activity from judges but would lessen the work load all at once. People would have a monthly file
Cap like osu does, and judges would have that monthly deadline to judge after said file is submitted. The coded system on kbo did a lot automatically and AJ can vouch for how useful it was

Considering the amount of simfiles submitted within a day of an open batch, we'd have to limit the amount of files 1 person sends for a specific period of time.

This can definitely work though.

[TC_Halogen]

The coded system on KBO was incredibly helpful and I can certainly vouch for the positives. However, I can also vouch for a few negatives, like chart detail being a bit more ignored/inconsistently judged in comparison to a manual run-through due to the custom-coded engine.

Sync was an issue on some songs simply because judges relied on the the on-site system rather than actually viewing it in SM/DDream/(etc). Obviously, the engine implementation wouldn't be the most possible thing to do with game's mechanics, and it wouldn't be feasible to judge files on appearance for the same reason. The system of constant, unbroken judging is a great way to reduce the load, but if KBO has taught me anything, it's that judgment fatigue happens very quickly. Deadlines make thing happens, and the more relaxed the deadlines get, the less likely it is that things will get done.

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by kommisar

Yeah I guess his comments were a little counter-productive haha.

Generally speaking though I love to read heated discussions when intelligible


I pitched this idea to JX a while back but he said it wouldn't work because of laziness which I guess is true lol: kbo's judging system. Files can be submitted any time and judges judge when they can. Once enough judges have played said files, a verdict was automatically entered and the game manager oversaw the final verdict. This would require constant activity from judges but would lessen the work load all at once. People would have a monthly file
Cap like osu does, and judges would have that monthly deadline to judge after said file is submitted. The coded system on kbo did a lot automatically and AJ can vouch for how useful it was

Yeah that's why I avoided the judge when they can thing. I just view it like this.

- Batch opens with little to no warning.
- People freak out and rush to submit their full cap because they don't know when the next on is.
- The process takes a long ass time honestly lol.

So say the email is open at all times but files are still taken in bundles of x amount of files. Maybe adjust this based on whether there are 8 available to judge or 16 (just throwing examples) So technically they're still basically batched but it's not this unpredictable schedule where people feel inclined to rush and sacrifice quality to fill their cap.

Then being that JX has fairly limited ability I figure that another primary judge or two should have access to bundle these files and start a judging process.

I just think it's worth a shot to see if it impacts the quality of files and such. I mean when we first go to open it up again it's going to get flooded out because people have been waiting, but I think if it were left open we would get a reasonable flow and people wouldn't feel so pressured. Then none the less that could mean that there would be files in that could be thrown into a large event batch for something like the official at certain times as well. Plus allowing for us to search in there for potential tournament files and have them judged.

[kommisar]

It would still limit the amount of files people can send per month, so we wouldn't necessarily be seeing more simfiles to judge.

Having a sort of editor to work through in ffr's engine would be cool too, rather than load everything up in stepmania (by editor I mean the ability to scroll through a file, and have time markers etc.)


I also think a new system could be implemented in FFR regarding difficulties. Many complain that there aren't enough new easier simfiles coming out in recent years. Maybe we could do like osu/ts and implement mandatory multiple charts? (minimum of 2, one hard one easy). This would make people think twice before dumping simfiles like it's going out of style (hehu) and force them to commit to the quality of one file. I'm certain having multiple charts is doable in FFR.

[iironiic]

I like the idea of having the batch open at all times. I think it would also be very less time consuming for judges to assign a rating between 0-10 out of ten points, and not provide any commentary. If a stepartist wishes to know why they receive such a rating from a particular judge, they should make every effort to do so by shooting a PM, contacting them on Skype, etc.. The judges can then go in details explaining why they give that initial rating.

I suggest this because a) this will allow all of the judges to judge your file instead of having them split into different teams. b) Very less time consuming overall and is flexible to everyone's busy schedules. c) Allows better interaction between the stepartist and the judges to try and make the file a good addition to FFR. d) Minimizes contradictory comments and ratings between judges after discussion.

Opinions?

[psychoangel691]

Originally Posted by kommisar

It would still limit the amount of files people can send per month, so we wouldn't necessarily be seeing more simfiles to judge.

Having a sort of editor to work through in ffr's engine would be cool too, rather than load everything up in stepmania (by editor I mean the ability to scroll through a file, and have time markers etc.)


I also think a new system could be implemented in FFR regarding difficulties. Many complain that there aren't enough new easier simfiles coming out in recent years. Maybe we could do like osu/ts and implement mandatory multiple charts? (minimum of 2, one hard one easy). This would make people think twice before dumping simfiles like it's going out of style (hehu) and force them to commit to the quality of one file.

I'm not looking to see more per say, I'm looking to reduce the rushed pressure people feel to fill their cap every batch since they don't ever know when the next will open. I'm more so looking for improved quality, which in turn would mean more accepted.

The editor thing was something I had always wished we could have with ffr (or something like it) after seeing KBO's thing when AJ was judging. I brought it up at some point I think to Jon but I don't know if it were something that was plausible.

Originally Posted by iironiic

I like the idea of having the batch open at all times. I think it would also be very less time consuming for judges to assign a rating between 0-10 out of ten points, and not provide any commentary. If a stepartist wishes to know why they receive such a rating from a particular judge, they should make every effort to do so by shooting a PM, contacting them on Skype, etc.. The judges can then go in details explaining why they give that initial rating.

I suggest this because a) this will allow all of the judges to judge your file instead of having them split into different teams. b) Very less time consuming overall and is flexible to everyone's busy schedules. c) Allows better interaction between the stepartist and the judges to try and make the file a good addition to FFR. d) Minimizes contradictory comments and ratings between judges after discussion.

Opinions?

The only thing I would say with this is that it might be hard for some judges to have all that one on one time with a simauthor or multiple depending. Maybe it can be more of a quicknote thing and then if someone really needs something clarified they can speak with the judge. Idk.