My depersonalization over the last year

[star reaper]

Hey, been reading about whats happened to you. I have to say I feel sorry that these things happened to you. Will be praying. Also, not sure if it's possible or how well it would work, but try and be around some one who can help make decisions for you when you can't, like being around some person you know for most of your days. (Just thinking it might help keep things safer and more stable)

[XXXsmittyXXX]

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Can you move somewhere for the time being?

Twice now you've had episodes in your shower, sounds like you're waking up in the same place and wanting a hit. If you go someplace where you've never had a hit before it should make the cravings easier. Like, I can't work at home very well, because home is where I don't work. Get me out of the house and suddenly it's like 'oh yeah, I can write no problem' or 'hey, this project isn't so bad afterall'.
I know my example is weaksauce compared to what you're going through, but the principles are exactly the same. Seriously consider going to visit a relative, maybe stay at your woman's house next door. Just to sleep somewhere and wake up surrounded by a place where you have never used this or other drugs before and it should help the cravings.

You also should really find something to occupy your time, something that's scheduled, something that can become another habit to take the place of the drugs. I suppose it's best if you find something you enjoy, but that's probably not going to really happen in your state of mind, so just find something to DO. It's easier to tell yourself to do something than to not do something. Your post tomorrow should be about what you did today and what you plan to do that day.


Unfortunately, things like spice, whose formulae change just as soon as the previous concoction is banned, can always stay one step ahead of the process needed to ban illegal substances.

I am actually considering moving in next door already she doesn't seem to ever mind. I have cleaned up my old smoke station and torn down / thrown away all remnants of any spice related paraphernalia. Other than feeling disconnected all day my heart has been palpitating it feels like fluttering beats. And my wrists and arms hurt around my veins like theyre being constricted. Lady is going to help me make a good schedule for the time being until i go back to work. Canon's machines are undergoing maintenance and upgrades so we have all been kind of pissed off. I would be able to kick this much easier not being able to smoke for 12 hours while at work. I haven't smoked yet though so i suppose it doesn't matter where i'm at. The owner of high tyde agreed to have a talk with me this weekend about things and "the way it has to be for a while", sickening. I'm going to see if i can record something. Spenner i actually do drink sleepytime on a regular basis it's amazing. I got some new tattoos recently maybe i could get one everytime the craving comes on strong for herbal incense

[choof]

yo sleepytime tea and gin is one of the best things ever

[XXXsmittyXXX]

Good morning. Just got back from the dentist my teeth are also wrecked from herbal incense. Gives a 'meth-mouth' of sorts regardless of brushing habits. I had known my teeth were getting bad but 21 cavities, i need a root canal and a crown, and i'm a freak of nature and i have an extra wisdom tooth growing somehow.
I slept next door last night and went to bed rather early but i woke up at 4 am kicking and yelling and i puked on the bathroom floor. I woke up at like 7:30 to get dude on the bus and ate a piece of bread and an olive before i went to dentist. I feel like things are really getting a bit strange. This still feels like i'm fighting against it... because i want to smoke the feeling is still there and i hate that it's going to be there for a long time.
Anyway, productivity, ive been cleaning more than ever. The smallest dirty areas and messes bother me now. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing. Ive been on the internet doing a lot of research still on spice addiction and therapy.
I have learned that withdrawal from herbal incense is always going to be uncomfortable but it's not life threatening, but it should be medically supervised.. a little concern there as i'm still not in a facility. I learned that physical stabilization occurs months after initial spice detox and i should most likely address sleep problems and mood disorders (which i do have) with my doctor to best treat them. And the final stage of spice addiction treatment is to treat the mind. Psychological impulses drive drug use and psychotherapy will aim to understand why i use / used spice and that psychotherapy may be the most important aspect of any addiction.

So i'll take into consideration

1. The withdrawal phase
2. Physical stabilization
3. Psychological treatment

And a great video on synthetic addiction i have watched

Very concerning

"Dr. Schermerhorn details how drugs, especially Spice/K2 affect the human brain, especially the neurotransmitters. An imbalance of neurotransmitters can create a problem. For example, too much dopamine causes schizophrenia while Parkinson's is a lack of dopamine. When you make a designer drug, like K2/Spice, you mess with the neurotransmitters and create a dangerous balance. It creates a iatrogenic delirium. Delirium is brain failure that can make a person die."

"K2/Spice is a really, really dangerous drug. It is best described as crystal meth and LSD combined and ten times stronger."

[V-Ormix]

Glad to see you going in the right direction and that your at least still alive D: but I think you know that from pro chat already... have you considered exercise a way to cope with stress some what yet?

[samurai7694]

Withdrawal isn't easy, but (as I said on Skype) it's not just a phase but it's an everyday struggle. Each day, people have the right to choose whether to have an optimistic view on life or a pessimistic view. Each day, people have the right to choose to work in order to put food on the table or a roof over their heads or to think "meh, I'll do it tomorrow" with the assumption that tomorrow will be an ordinary day. Even for those who have quit a specific addiction (which can apply to drugs, sex, food, etc.) the cravings can still come up no matter how long one has gone cold turkey. It's a daily struggle.

Thanks for keeping us updated. As I said before, hang in there and stay strong.

[DossarLX ODI]

Smitty I'd also like to thank you for raising awareness about these drugs as well as giving information and personal experience.

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

Anyway, productivity, ive been cleaning more than ever. The smallest dirty areas and messes bother me now. Not sure if it's a good or bad thing. Ive been on the internet doing a lot of research still on spice addiction and therapy.

You're maintaining living space and keeping yourself occupied trying to find solutions to problems.

I would say this is going beyond just yourself and I appreciate your honesty and willpower to fight against this addiction.

[Sky Kitten]

I read your story and I have to say, I shed some tears because I would never want to go through something like that. I'm really glad you're taking the proper steps for recovery. The road to it won't be easy, but we'll be supporting you all the way.

Good luck, and be strong. <3

[Cavernio]

Keep it up, I'll keep reading it.

[DossarLX ODI]

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

lists no website or manufacturers of the herbal product

We talked about this. Since the chemists are always a step ahead of the police changing the formulas slightly to make the drugs stay legal, an investigation needs to be put place to find these goddamn manufacturing places.

I'd imagine there would be plenty of documents about the plans the chemists had in how the product's chemical composition would be changed frequently every time a state tried defining what's not legal.

Also, listing the manufacturer should be a REQUIREMENT. Has no investigation been done on finding the places this product is manufactured? The investigators would be in for quite a surprise at what they would find if they actually found these places.

[Spenner]

It's hard because chemical companies can make these chemical ingredients legitimately with no issues (and rightfully so, there's a lot of research potential for them). But the people who buy the chemicals (who may or may not be legitimate), and then passes them down the line to the people who put chemical + plant material together. THOSE are the bad guys. The chemicals are going to exist no matter what, and they will always be able to get away with it. It's ceasing the distribution, making sure they don't go anywhere.

[DossarLX ODI]

You mention that chemical companies can make those ingredients legitimately with no issues, and there can be perfectly good reason to make them for research etc.

But the problem here is that no manufacturers are listed. If no manufacturers are listed that gives me the impression that it's shady as fuck. If the drug was legitimate, the manufacturer would be listed there without any issue.

[XXXsmittyXXX]

Dossar i will continue to raise awareness. I have been to multiple narcotics meetings each night around my area informing teens and parents about k2 and spice. Let me go ahead and explain the herbal incense trade from the man himself Salvatore lopiccolo. It's difficult to understand.
When Sal / bonsai first started to sell k2 and spice they IMMEDIATELY drove infinite traffic to their store in our area which was a fucking shock. The moment a smoke shop gets more infested with business than a WAWA is when you know to launch an investigation. My old highschool buddy matt kidd-hux started working there and i caught on that something was fishy cause i always knew that piece of shit to do shady loser drugs and sell them to people. Then his GF started working there at the spice counter and i always knew her to be the best person on earth. What is that telling you? yeah, somethings up. I started questioning Sal and megan everytime i purchased a bag asking them where the product comes from and whats in it and all they ever had to say was 'we dont know but when we smoke it, it makes us fucking trip so youll be happy alright?' or something along those lines. Bonsai did their business sketchy. High tyde calls the 'flavors' scents, where as bonsai called the scents 'flavors', giving away that its smoke-able. I eventually talked to sal outside of bonsai when i bought 100 bags of "Neutronium" off of him at a wholesale price during one of the sweeps / bans, and found out a lot. He was purchasing all of his product from the local "lazy dayz hookah lounge" store for pennies on the dollar, and i found that they were getting their product from brazil in a laboratory that did 'research' and was changing their compounds daily, where the trail went cold. I am sure the original chemicals came from research labs in china. Regardless, All of these shops are just money laundering businesses to hide a much bigger picture. If you can locate and read salvatore's indictment you would be shocked at what they recovered out of his store. So it goes as follows. Open shop --> find chemicals and people who sell them --> purchase at a business price --> bring to your business --> re-sale to idiots for profits

The laws cant study a constant for long enough to pinpoint troubles, This will never get easy.


I found the indictment.

http://wtkr.com/2013/11/21/owner-of-...and-narcotics/
and
http://localtvwtkr.files.wordpress.c...indictment.pdf

[Spenner]

Originally Posted by DossarLX ODI

You mention that chemical companies can make those ingredients legitimately with no issues, and there can be perfectly good reason to make them for research etc.

But the problem here is that no manufacturers are listed. If no manufacturers are listed that gives me the impression that it's shady as fuck. If the drug was legitimate, the manufacturer would be listed there without any issue.

I'm just saying the problem is within the scope of the K2 product itself, not with the active chemicals.

Once the active chemicals have been sold to somebody else, that's their deal. Once I buy flour and use it as an ingredient in bread, I don't need to list who's flour it is.

If we WERE to do so, and there was a problem with the flour in the bread, we could as consumours rule out who is to seek out. Similarly with the k2 packaging companies. They'll know, and any investigation into their shipping/receiving logbook would be enough to figure that out. But it still does not mean that the chemical companies are at fault here. It's improper usage of them. Imposing shipping restrictions at the chemical place, yeah that will mean there's no K2 directly. But they have no way to discern "Joe Blank" from "Boe Jank" when they receive an order of what might be legal active compounds that they swear are for research purposes. Until the chemicals are scheduled, there's nothing that can really be done on a grandeur scheme.

So I guess that's just it, raise awareness, have a social perception that reduces the market/demand and hopefully these products start to go away. Other than that: simply make a rule saying you can't sell herbal incense products that contain synthetic cannabinoids : |

Also as reckless as it sounds, legalizing cannabis is going to at least VERY much dilute the market for synthetic versions that are becoming to be known for what they really are. Better yet, if they legalize strains with high CBD levels and make it publically aware ("SYNTHETIC SHIT HAS FUCKED UP YOUR BRAIN, SMOKE THIS AND GET BETTER") that it is more effective for their weed of k2 induced anxiety or any other psychological problems.

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

I am sure the original chemicals came from research labs in china.

Primarily this is the case. Off the top of my head I can name two sites notorious for selling in both bulk and smaller levels of purchase, and most of the substances they sell are illegal here. Yet, they will sell it to you discretely and it will be all on you as far as how to make it seem legitimate (paying a research company to import it for you is a dodge for this).

Also I read this (Section 32) which outlines why the man was charged with the things listed in COUNT ONE, that shit is strict as fuck. They should have no problems taking them down if they put the effort into connecting the dots.

TL;DR: People need to not mindlessly consume ANYTHING. Research ANY new product you are interested in trying that has mind altering effects. Once you think you've done enough research, read dozens of reports on it. Once you've done that, if you aren't sure what you're getting into, talk to people who have done it lots, and get the good/bad. BUT TO AVOID ALL THAT SHIT get studying some basic neuroscience and read the wiki pages and you'll be able to see for yourself what a lot of these things do without having to read extensively on anecdotal reports.

[XXXsmittyXXX]

I hate that though. "simply make a rule saying you can't sell herbal incense products that contain synthetic cannabinoids." Because you know the depth of that. It's impossible. The problem still lies in impossibility.

[Spenner]

Originally Posted by XXXsmittyXXX

I hate that though. "simply make a rule saying you can't sell herbal incense products that contain synthetic cannabinoids." Because you know the depth of that. It's impossible. The problem still lies in impossibility.

At the bottom line, yes. Any extra footsteps for them to take to get to the point to where they are selling these things, they will likely still likely take.

But that doesn't mean that someone undercover could waltz in, buy a pack, take it to a laboratory, show the results to a judge, and have them taken away immediately. A pain in the ass for the sellers and for police, but it's the only thing I can foresee happening that isn't an awareness campaign.

So ye, making people aware. And not scare tactics either. If I were to go about it, I would just be straight with how these things actually work. You've been doing research into why these substances can be damaging to the physical brain, people need to have that on their mind and not just the image of a "bad trip" (Reefer Madness type example lol).

It's hard for the average person who just "wants to get high" to understand what they're getting into. That's why you see people smoking salvia thinking it will be like getting stoned. Ohboy.

"K2/Spice is a really, really dangerous drug. It is best described as crystal meth and LSD combined and ten times stronger."

I understand the good intentions by labelling this drug as something just as potentially harmful, but saying that it's a really strong dirty candyflip is not the case, and a false comparison. You're better off comparing it to PCP for it's dissociative effects, not something ridiculous like a full body stimulant x10, and a 10 strip of acid. Delirious, dissociative effects like you might get on a bad salvia trip, but without the intense hallucinogenic effects, is closer still. Sorry if it sounds like I'm asserting some sort of authority here, I'm not, I just don't want you to go around talking to people as if it were like meth + acid. That's more in the realm of bath salt related designer drugs.

[XXXsmittyXXX]

I should have mentioned that Salvatore and his crew are all out of imprisonment and that he plans to open up another spice shop in the coming months when the jwh laws settle. It's pure proof that it's not going to stop. About the undercover purchasing, they made about 9 undercover purchases from bonsai and all were illegal compounds from a wide array of synthetic drugs including bath salts. He wasn't so good at hiding chems, sal already did a 5 yr stint in prison for selling cocaine, he was trying to be a drug dealer legit this time so he could get his jimmies off, but he got caught up in chemical warfare. I know that he gets a feel from giving this product to people, it's most likely the same feeling he got from selling white.

They can keep making undercover buys and trying and trying but this will boil down to awareness forever until it stops. The average person who wants to get high looks like an amazing person when i see those individuals at 'high tyde' you can tell theyve never abused anything in their life and theyre afraid of weed. Everything in me screams to just tell them to go away and never come back and that they don't know what theyre getting themselves into

Oh, assert authority or not, This is like meth and lsd combined times ten and if i must, ill say times twenty. I have gotten the same up and down effects from the 2 times i did bath salts compared to the thousands of uses of k2 and spice.

[Spenner]

I guess they could also make it a legal requirement at LEAST to have the same awareness packaging as cigarettes must have now. Not with fearful images of a damaged body, but telling people:

"This is a dissociative synthetic drug, that could potentially replicate the effects of psychosis. Psychotic effects may involve delirious thoughts and panic attacks, heavily dissociated."

Though no matter what you're right that it's an impossibility. There will always be "the drug" people who want to get high, get high off of. The set out to do it, they will find something. There's countless options, and a lot of them are easy to get. The war on drugs is futile, but I guess you can't spell awareness without war squeezed in.

[XXXsmittyXXX]

If people keep dying in my 50 mile radius that will happen without a doubt, or all product will have a special law put into effect or daily cop checks to make sure they arent selling it. We already have armed guards at every spice shop, and cops that look for people swerving into the spice shops. Most stay open 24 hours a day so people strung out from a 4 1/2 day meth binge can come drive into a shop to buy some. Do you think they are adept for operating a motor vehicle? No. I'm not going to stop this war. I almost jumped in the car and drove to high tyde but i sat down in this chair and started typing. This thread is very important right now to me

[nois-or-e]

Stay strong mate. You've obviously got a lot of people here and irl that truly care and want to help/see you make it out of this in one piece.

I'm just glad that over here that sort of thing is frowned at. Most people that I've ever heard of ordering this shit online and smoking it have pretty much hated it and gone right back to smoking dope.