Dog's Super Smash Bros. Brawl Ladder

[OmniOstrich]

Matches with korny (should have stuck with snake >.< )

FD Omni (Ekans) vs Korny (Jiggs) WIN:Omni
FD Omni (Ekans) vs Korny (Tink) WIN:Korny
FD Omni (Sheik) vs Korny (Gdubs) WIN:Korny

I counterpicked Sheik, thinking she was a good pick vs Tink, if you started projectile spamming I could needle, and if it was really excessive Zelda has a reflector and a powerful projectile. I forgot counterpicking is stupid because you arent obligated to stay the same char and I don't get to choose the stage -.-

why FD? why?

[Afrobean]

Final Destination is the most neutral stage that doesn't give or remove any advantage of any character's natural set of attacks.

[Jor-Dan_the_greatest]

yup yup!
any time i want to have some fun/serious matches, i go to FD
any time i want just fun i go to other stages, tho

[korny]

I didn't even think those matches between us were for serious. You don't have to count them if you don't want.

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by Afrobean

Final Destination is the most neutral stage that doesn't give or remove any advantage of any character's natural set of attacks.

It gives an advantage to characters...
-All projectile users are at an advantage
(there is no refuge from their attacks)
-All heavyweights are at an advantage
(it is a large stage, making them harder to KO)
-All poor recovery characters are at an advantage
(there are no obstacles with recovery, as opposed to Lylat, where poor recoveries are disadvantaged)

Originally Posted by korny

I didn't even think those matches between us were for serious. You don't have to count them if you don't want.

I'll take you up on that then, just msg me when we are going to redo.

[OmniOstrich]

Double Post D: figured it should be seperate:

Japes Omni(Wario) vs Gray(Bowser) WIN:Omni
Smashville Omni(R.O.B.) vs Gray(Bowser) WIN:Gray
Japes Omni(Wario) vs Gray(Bowser) WIN:Omni

<3 Japes as a Wario counterpick level xD. I was so close on the ROB match too, but i let you juggle me xD

[Gray Fox]

Hah good games. I knew that counter picking would take place as soon as I saw the first level. At that moment I already gave up but I played anyway.

[Lone Kitsune]

I'm Back. Unfreeze me

[Afrombean]

Originally Posted by OmniOstrich

It gives an advantage to characters...

You misunderstood me, or perhaps I worded it poorly. I meant that it does not create advantages which are not intended abilities/characteristics. Characters who are advantaged on this stage would be unfairly disadvantaged on other stages... I can't tell you how many times I've failed to use Pikachu to his full potential simply because there is a ceiling over my opponent's head almost the whole match.

Especially Battlefield. Which Manti, I believe, is in love with. Not to say I would win against him with any sort of consistency on FD compared to Battlefield, but it certainly doesn't help to start off with one of my most effective techniques unavailable for the most part.

The things you mentioned can be countered relatively easily by saying "those advantages you identified are an intended balance to overcome some sort of weakness or perceived weakness". Like heavyweights? They're hard to KO to balance their typical slowness and easy-target-ness. Projectile users rely on their projectiles to overcome weakness (be it real or merely perceived) of the rest of their moveset. The only thing I'm not sure how to respond to is the final comment about poor recoveries; I know poor recovery can still lead to death on FD, I've seen it, I've done it. What you're saying though seems to indicate that you think it's a good thing when the stage can cause a person to die? Is that right? That's not very fair... I can't tell you how many bs deaths I've had thanks to the stage alone, even on stages without hazards. Heck, I've had more than my fair share of crappy deaths on FD even thanks to the shape of the underside there at the edge.

[Suicidalfatman]

Originally Posted by Gray Fox

Yep that was some good games. Alrighty Lycan I'll add that new FC of yours.

did ya add me?

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by Afrombean

You misunderstood me, or perhaps I worded it poorly. I meant that it does not create advantages which are not intended abilities/characteristics. Characters who are advantaged on this stage would be unfairly disadvantaged on other stages... I can't tell you how many times I've failed to use Pikachu to his full potential simply because there is a ceiling over my opponent's head almost the whole match.

Especially Battlefield. Which Manti, I believe, is in love with. Not to say I would win against him with any sort of consistency on FD compared to Battlefield, but it certainly doesn't help to start off with one of my most effective techniques unavailable for the most part.

The things you mentioned can be countered relatively easily by saying "those advantages you identified are an intended balance to overcome some sort of weakness or perceived weakness". Like heavyweights? They're hard to KO to balance their typical slowness and easy-target-ness. Projectile users rely on their projectiles to overcome weakness (be it real or merely perceived) of the rest of their moveset. The only thing I'm not sure how to respond to is the final comment about poor recoveries; I know poor recovery can still lead to death on FD, I've seen it, I've done it. What you're saying though seems to indicate that you think it's a good thing when the stage can cause a person to die? Is that right? That's not very fair... I can't tell you how many bs deaths I've had thanks to the stage alone, even on stages without hazards. Heck, I've had more than my fair share of crappy deaths on FD even thanks to the shape of the underside there at the edge.

What I'm saying is for characters of the opposite nature of the ones i mentioned these are all disadvantages, thats the real problem.

Disadvantaged on FD:
-Characters with Good recovery (they can't capitalize upon poor recoveries by chasing and gimping, because it requires a much better gimp than say, smashville, or lylat)
-Characters that are lightweight (they get KO'ed straightforward often anyways, a lot of KOs on your heavyweights are going to be failure to recover, or a gimp, which is harder to do on FD than on a small stage like Pictochat, or Yoshi's Island)
-Characters with no projectile (they get spammed to all hell, especially online, and its much harder to close the gap on a stage that is so wide)

Also about projectiles...Sakurai, if you haven't heard, does not support a Smash competitive community in any way shape or form. He intends for it to be a party game, and believes that 'unfair advantages' are countered by random events in stages and items. This means projectiles aren't meant to cover weaknesses, because items are meant to be on, pretty much entirely reducing the effectiveness of projectile spamming to short bursts alone.

I'm not saying FD isnt neutral, or that it shouldn't be played. I'm saying that there are 2-4 other neutral stages (Battlefield, Smashville, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, depending on who you talk to about the definition of neutral).

As a side note, Pikachu players usually favor BF, and even counterpick it.
+RAR offstage thunder is more effective with thunder, due to the smaller ledge overhang.
+QAC locks are easier to setup
+Platforms setup utilt/uair juggle combos
+Platforms can be used for thunderbolt camping
+You can keep use your advantage of speedy low-lag attacks more because there is less room for escape
(these based off of Anther, currently #1 Allisbrawl.com ladder, as well as a huge tourny-goer and victor of several notable large tournaments, widely accepted as the best Pikachu)

Idea:
In tournaments its illegal to play on a stage you already won on, I think we should implement the same rule, or something similiar.

[iRockZelda]

GG manti, sorry had to leave after 1 match. have to get rdy for school.

-Karlo

[GutsyBat]

well im online right now don't know how long i'll be on either contact me here or xxkanolexx(aim) I haven't played for a few months so if i suck please forgive. I need to start playing with Solid Snake more.

[Afrombean]

Originally Posted by OmniOstrich

As a side note, Pikachu players usually favor BF, and even counterpick it.

Then they use a drastically different method of fighting than I do.

+RAR offstage thunder is more effective with thunder, due to the smaller ledge overhang.

"Reverse Aerial Rush" Thunder? I'm not sure you're using your terminology correctly, because reverse aerial rushes are forward moving backward directional aerial attacks. Pikachu has practically nothing to gain from RARing, and I honestly don't think I've ever even performed it as Pikachu in a real match. Do you mean Bstick/wavebounce? That works well on FD too, given proper timing.

+QAC locks are easier to setup

That's a glitch as far as I'm concerned. I don't worry myself about things which are definitely glitches.

+Platforms setup utilt/uair juggle combos

If I employed a tactic based around juggling, why would I be playing Pikachu? All Pikachu's got in that department in his up tilt and smash, and that simply doesn't cut it. His best method for getting at foes above him is to thunder, not juggle them, and like I said, platforms above make it harder to use Thunder to its full potential.

+Platforms can be used for thunderbolt camping

"thunderbolt"? You mean Pikachu's neutral B, "Thunder Jolt"? Are you suggesting it's better to sit up on a platform and leave my bottom unprotected from possible onslaught from below, than it would be to just sit on the other side of a straight flat platform and spam from there?

That, and spamming as a fighting technique is lame. I only spam as baiting or messing around or occasionally minor damage.

+You can keep use your advantage of speedy low-lag attacks more because there is less room for escape

Battlefield isn't that much smaller than Final Destination, and I'd say it has roughly equivalent room for escape. Less lateral direction, but higher vertical. I don't know about you, but those platforms are definitely a pain to attack around with Pikachu's aerial moveset for me.

(these based off of Anther, currently #1 Allisbrawl.com ladder, as well as a huge tourny-goer and victor of several notable large tournaments, widely accepted as the best Pikachu)

If the "best player in the world" uses a certain technique, that one technique is the only viable option? "Oh his tactic works well on this stage, so everyone should use that tactic on that stage." Sorry, I like my techniques, and I know that my techniques are less effective on Battlefield.

[Jor-Dan_the_greatest]

*cheers for Afro*

[OmniOstrich]

Originally Posted by Afrombean

Then they use a drastically different method of fighting than I do.

"Reverse Aerial Rush" Thunder? I'm not sure you're using your terminology correctly, because reverse aerial rushes are forward moving backward directional aerial attacks. Pikachu has practically nothing to gain from RARing, and I honestly don't think I've ever even performed it as Pikachu in a real match. Do you mean Bstick/wavebounce? That works well on FD too, given proper timing.

That's a glitch as far as I'm concerned. I don't worry myself about things which are definitely glitches.

If I employed a tactic based around juggling, why would I be playing Pikachu? All Pikachu's got in that department in his up tilt and smash, and that simply doesn't cut it. His best method for getting at foes above him is to thunder, not juggle them, and like I said, platforms above make it harder to use Thunder to its full potential.

"thunderbolt"? You mean Pikachu's neutral B, "Thunder Jolt"? Are you suggesting it's better to sit up on a platform and leave my bottom unprotected from possible onslaught from below, than it would be to just sit on the other side of a straight flat platform and spam from there?

That, and spamming as a fighting technique is lame. I only spam as baiting or messing around or occasionally minor damage.
Battlefield isn't that much smaller than Final Destination, and I'd say it has roughly equivalent room for escape. Less lateral direction, but higher vertical. I don't know about you, but those platforms are definitely a pain to attack around with Pikachu's aerial moveset for me.

If the "best player in the world" uses a certain technique, that one technique is the only viable option? "Oh his tactic works well on this stage, so everyone should use that tactic on that stage." Sorry, I like my techniques, and I know that my techniques are less effective on Battlefield.

By RAR I meant Reverse Aerial Reverse, which is jumping offstage then double jumping back and simultaneously using thunder, which really doesn't hit often its mostly used to force an air dodge...

You may feel free to call it a glitch, but considering the old Melee tech of L-cancelling this seems like a similar ability, given only to one character. If you choose not to use it thats fine, it doesn't make BF any less of an advantage for Pikachu, it makes it less of an advantage for you.

Pikachu can juggle very effectively because of his mobility using QAC, so you can be under your opponent in a matter of seconds and performing a combo, it is very hard to predict these for most players.

The spell check said thunderjolt wasn't a word so I went with thunderbolt...you knew what I was talking about so the point was made.

The platforms are used for catch the thunders and presenting them to your opponent at an awkward angle. You can can SH thunder jolt (maybe full hop, I haven't played Pika recently) and it will wrap around the platform in front of you. Many characters, upon seeing a campy tactic and wishing to break it, will immediately dash attack, or begin a SH approach. Unlike a grounded jolt the platform jolts will often not clank/be eaten by dash attacks, or avoided by SH approaches.

I never said 'Anther does it so it is the only way' I was trying get the point across that if these strategies work in a pro setting, they will be plenty applicable in a competitive setting. or even a casual game with the same game type.

The main point was not Pikachu does well on BF anyways, thats an individual debate. You basically proved my point though, you are trying to pick FD because it gives you an advantage as a Pikachu player.


I was saying that stage variation should be included in challenge matches, because it is agreed that the stage does make a difference, and no stage is fair for all characters.

Solution: I still suggest that If you have WON on a stage you may not pick that stage again, if you LOST on a stage and you really want to choose it again, fine.

Example: Going with our little discussion say Afro's Pikachu generally beats my Olimar on FD because he can use his thunder against my minimal air control and simple recovery, but on BF I can hide under platforms and win most of the time. Is it fair for either Afro to continuously pick FD and win, or for me to continuously pick BF and win? If we each get a chance to play our map then we are tied and then we both stand a chance on that last match.

[Jor-Dan_the_greatest]

Originally Posted by OmniOstrich

Example: Going with our little discussion say Afro's Pikachu generally beats my Olimar on FD because he can use his thunder against my minimal air control and simple recovery, but on BF I can hide under platforms and win most of the time. Is it fair for either Afro to continuously pick FD and win, or for me to continuously pick BF and win? If we each get a chance to play our map then we are tied and then we both stand a chance on that last match.

UGH WHY DO YOU HAVE TO MAKE ME AGREE WITH YOU???

it pains me so...

[globalwf]

Did any of you know that globalwf.com is now hosting an ssbb 1vs1 no items ladder?
http://www.globalwf.com

[GutsyBat]

Whenever i don't care, Jordan i want a ladder match. I wasn't going to 1v1 in that horrible lag but if you want to try Lucas v. Lucas i am game.

[Jor-Dan_the_greatest]

uhh, you can't? you can only challenge 2 rungs above you...