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Old 05-18-2017, 07:42 AM   #41
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

basically, yes.
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:00 AM   #42
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Next question: would this affect jumps as well? because jumps are also counted as a single note

So basically what will happen is if you FC a song your combo will be exactly the same as the total amount of notes as opposed to what we have now (notes being less than combo due to jumps/chords counting as a single note)

If that's the case then I wouldn't mind if it was removed, it'd be a refreshing change to what we're all used to doing and I think it's one that could make playing more enjoyable for all of us as a whole!
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Old 05-18-2017, 08:03 AM   #43
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

yes it affebts jamps
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:32 PM   #44
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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mirror isnt cheating
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Old 05-18-2017, 03:44 PM   #45
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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Old 05-18-2017, 09:06 PM   #46
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

You can argue that any option that alters the chart in any way is cheating or at least they need to be in a separate ranking, but almost all of the modern rhythm games consider mirror, random, and super random legit so
I mean if we want to be super pedantic we need to start over the whole "cmod is cheating, xmod that isn't 1x is cheating etc" discussion
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:37 PM   #47
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

mirror isn't really cheating, but like, use it or don't.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:42 PM   #48
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

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You can argue that any option that alters the chart in any way is cheating or at least they need to be in a separate ranking, but almost all of the modern rhythm games consider mirror, random, and super random legit so
I think the most reasonable rule is one button for every input and one input for every button.

You can't really disable/ban mirror because you could just flip your monitor upside down (or horizontally using software) and rearrange the key bindings. Likewise you could just bind the AKSL keys for left, up, down, right to simulate the Left or Right mod.

Or you could use the arrow keys and the placement of your left and right hands' index fingers on the up and down keys would determine which trills would be one-handed. It'd be hard to argue playing like that is cheating any more than using your index and ring finger is cheating rather than index and middle finger.

The thing is, I don't think any of these things alter the chart. Charts have a sequence of notes in a certain order. Whether you hit 1234 with ASKL, AKSL, <v^>, or <^v>, you're playing the chart as it is. Each of the numbers just has to correspond with the same input for the duration of the chart, so of the things you listed, only randomizing alters this.
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Old 05-18-2017, 09:54 PM   #49
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Just to be clear I'm on the "S.Shuffle is legit" side
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:25 PM   #50
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

i would consider anything that alters the physical dimensions of a chart as needing to be treated as a score on that altered state of the chart, and not on the original; ie a 1.4 rockefeller street super shuffle aa isn't a rockefeller street 1.4 aa, it's a rockefeller street super shuffle aa (also an aside, s. shuffle would be more legit if it weren't so badly coded such that it produces insane left arrow bias)

this is because transforming the chart alters the physical difficulty of the chart which is sort of the entire concept of the difficulty/rating system, the only exception to this is mirror, since any chart fed to the calc will produce the same output difficulty independent of whether or not mirror is enabled

in this way it functionally operates more like a visual modifier than a chart modifier (also tbf people realized this prior to any calculator being invented)

and continuing from that the whole visual modifiers being legit/notlegit etc etc discussion is kind of stupid

it would be like arguing marathon runners who wear sunglasses to block out sunlight while they run are cheating

in fact that argument would be more viable than the whole "cmod isn't legit" shit

there is a tacit understanding in any competitive physical sport that certain personal preferences that don't improve physical performance in an unfair manner are game

wearing/not wearing gloves in a nascar race isn't grounds for disqualification
playing tennis with your visor on backwards isn't cheating
running a 400m sprint with oakleys isnt cheating

there is also a tacit understanding that intentionally crippling your own physical performance in a competitive physical sport is just stupid

you don't see olympic curlers brag about coming in second to last because they were looking through a kaleidoscope the entire time
you don't see competitive slalom racers brag about barely finishing a course without going out of bounds by intentionally exposing themselves to snow blindness by not wearing any goggles
i wouldn't be surprised if that roller skater in your sig did boast about narrowly coming in second despite an early celebration crippling his first place run, but we'd also all agree that if he did he's a moron

now i wouldnt call stepmania a competitive physical sport but lets be real in the age of "esports" it along with itg are the closest things that exist

basically what i'm trying to say is the "cmod is cheating" argument is only valid if you see the game in a fundamentally different light

it's not necessarily wrong, but it is in many ways the same as comparing poker to tennis

they're just two completely different games and trying to reconcile the rules and practices of the one with the other is an idiotic exercise in futility
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:30 PM   #51
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

just to be clear i'm on the "i believe players have the capacity to recognize the few instances when other players are intentionally trying to make files easier through abuse of the super shuffle algorithm to break up heavy jack files and in all other instances recognize that it makes files much more difficult" side
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:39 PM   #52
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

one could invoke the slippery scope argument as well

"anything but 1x xmod is cheating"
"all players must play on a dell model 'bigrubber' 1984 rubberdome keyboard"
"any monitor above 30hz is cheating"
"any pc is considered cheating, play is only allowed on a single specified model of arcade cabinet, yes you are hooking up a keyboard to an arcade cabinet"
"any playing environment that isn't exactly replicatable by another player constitutes cheating"
"any physical reality which may constitute any difference in output performance on a file given a set of prescribed circumstances is cheating"
"all players are mandated to replace their bodies with a standard model cyborg in order to ensure a level playing field"
"all players are mandated to replace their brainwave patterns with a standard model to further ensure a level playing field"
"all scores on the same file with the same mods are furthermore required to be the same, any scores that are not the same are considered to be cheating"
"all scores that exist must exist in a unique combination of different files/mods such that no two scores may be considered for the above mandate, this is to ensure that while the playing field is 100% level everyone is a winner and gets to feel like a special snowflake"

etc etc
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:49 PM   #53
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

If you gain huge score advantage from s.shuffle that chart is very likely to be horrible anyway
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:51 PM   #54
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

to be fair one of the major factor of competitive bms/iidx/popn/etc scene is getting the "lucky random" so i'd say one could argue we do not need to follow this just for the sake of following the modern rhythm gaming convention
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:54 PM   #55
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

one could also draw countless parallels to speed running or things like competitive melee

people don't care what kind of controller you use or how you hold it (ok maybe they care but it would be out of basic intrigue not because they would claim cactuar's hand position constitutes a violation of the smash melee hand position ethics accord of 1999)

people would probably care if you tried to claim the 56/83/97/111 star super mario world speed run wrs right after you played them back to back to back to back

nobody would give a shit if you finished 120 stars in 23 hours with one eye closed and one hand tied behind your back the entire time

do you see where i'm going with this because it's like insane to me that some people (not anyone here I don't think) don't get it

there are things that affect how hard something is to physically execute, and then there are things that affect your ability to make those executions

changes to the former =/= changes to the latter

someone trying to claim a marathon time after running only 18 miles isn't the same as someone running a marathon on stilts

e:
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to be fair one of the major factor of competitive bms/iidx/popn/etc scene is getting the "lucky random" so i'd say one could argue we do not need to follow this just for the sake of following the modern rhythm gaming convention
are you serious about this because this seems really really really stupid to me

it's like olypmic steeplechase except everyone runs a different course and whoever gets the easiest one wins... ????

that's not even competition, lol
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Old 05-18-2017, 10:57 PM   #56
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

it's a little less stupid on bms because you can play with the same random seed as the top scorer, but in iidx, yes super competitive players can be often seen failing a song over and over until they get the right random
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:00 PM   #57
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

i'm ok with random seeds tbh as long as they're faithfully adhered to

that's sort of what my everlong super shuffle was supposed to be
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Old 05-18-2017, 11:09 PM   #58
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

i mean you know, other than a joke
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:26 AM   #59
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Default Re: Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

Quote:
Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace View Post
one could invoke the slippery scope argument as well

"anything but 1x xmod is cheating"
"all players must play on a dell model 'bigrubber' 1984 rubberdome keyboard"
"any monitor above 30hz is cheating"
"any pc is considered cheating, play is only allowed on a single specified model of arcade cabinet, yes you are hooking up a keyboard to an arcade cabinet"
"any playing environment that isn't exactly replicatable by another player constitutes cheating"
"any physical reality which may constitute any difference in output performance on a file given a set of prescribed circumstances is cheating"
"all players are mandated to replace their bodies with a standard model cyborg in order to ensure a level playing field"
"all players are mandated to replace their brainwave patterns with a standard model to further ensure a level playing field"
"all scores on the same file with the same mods are furthermore required to be the same, any scores that are not the same are considered to be cheating"
"all scores that exist must exist in a unique combination of different files/mods such that no two scores may be considered for the above mandate, this is to ensure that while the playing field is 100% level everyone is a winner and gets to feel like a special snowflake"

etc etc
This looks like rules for a game that characters in a Star Trek parody would abide by, of which Data is going through them one by one. And now I cannot stop laughing
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