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View Poll Results: Do you think rates > 1.0 should count for scores?
Yes 45 59.21%
Nope 31 40.79%
Voters: 76. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-23-2014, 01:20 PM   #41
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by icontrolyourworld View Post
3) Rates are fun and you should be rewarded for having fun. It's a video game afterall.
/thread
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by choof View Post
a file on 1.2 has the same inputs as the same file on 1.0
TIL 200 bpm jumpstream requires same button presses/timing as 240 bpm. (you know what the fuck i meant)


Quote:
how can you equate "flips the L/R bias" to "leaves the patterns intact" lol
flipping a roll from 4321 to 1234 FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE.THIS IS PRACTICALLY A V2. Oh shit this isnt god damn pitch relevant, its backwards.

rates makes things jump trilllable and can cause ridiculous jacks... mirror doesnt make anything go universally easier, you still have to hit that trill/jack/anchor at the same speed. If a file is side biased (mama) you can only level the playing field between left/right handed people, the bias is still there.



Quote:
you don't think an AAA on 1.2 is better than a FC on 1.0? this is why on the leaderboards, rates used to achieve scores shouldn't be indicated
vertex/delerium/etc gamma/delta/etc different files. If you cant AAA a 15minute 100 bpm 16th stream, why should you get credit for it by doing a 7.5/200/16. Different skill requirements. My reality AAA didnt fill out my 1-78 level ranks.


I pushed for this shit back in the last official and it was made very clear as to why it wasnt going to happen. But feel free to selectively read this post and twist the words to what you need them to mean as to continue with these great "counter-arguments". I'm done here
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:41 PM   #43
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega_grunt666 View Post
I would agree, but it gives people on R^3 and advantage because none of the other engines can support rates. Some people can't use it due to compatibility issues.
I disagree with this argument because it's very stifling. Legacy engines are going to become unsupported / disappear (as in from being easily accessible, no, I don't mean they'll be removed) at some point, and should not be considered the gold standard when that happens. Viewpoints like "it's not fair because everyone had to do it the old way before" and "legacy users can't benefit from these changes" are just going to keep the site from progressing into something more modern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by choof View Post
the nice thing about rates is that patterns stay the same
Despite this, the timing window remains the same size which does make songs "easier" at the cost of speed. Scaling the timing windows proportionate to the rate would probably alleviate everyone's concerns about rates making certain songs easier through cheating/jumptrilling/whatever, but would also make everything on rates hard as hell to PA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Untimely Friction View Post
No credits no GTS, and then yes I agree
A lot of people in the old thread wanted the flipside of this: rate scores don't record, but still grant GTS and credits.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qqwref View Post
Playing on rate certainly makes patterns play differently, especially because of the 30 fps-ness.
Songs on rates are scaled exactly to the rate in ms timing, so the resulting sped-up charts aren't locked to 30fps frames. Pattern structure/timing therefore doesn't change at all from the original, as the notes aren't getting re-framed.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:45 PM   #44
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega_grunt666 View Post
TIL 200 bpm jumpstream requires same button presses/timing as 240 bpm. (you know what the fuck i meant)
I'm on linux right now so I can't give you screenshots so bear with me


let's take this simple jumpstream pattern:
1100
0010
0101
1000
0011

at 200 bpm and at 240 bpm, it would, quite literally, be the same exact pattern

as opposed to playing on mirror, which would cause the jumpstream pattern to be
0011
0100
1010
0001
1100

if you'd like, I can show you a number of ways why these aren't the same patterns

Quote:
flipping a roll from 4321 to 1234 FUCKING REVOLUTIONARY CHANGE.THIS IS PRACTICALLY A V2. Oh shit this isnt god damn pitch relevant, its backwards.
don't be a dick, rolls aren't the only patterns that are change. technically, all patterns are changed by mirror. except quads.

Quote:
rates makes things jump trilllable
really, this is irrelevant. a lot of people jump trill rolls already. and, as we've already covered, it will also make the rest of the file harder. rates don't apply to a single section of a chart, they apply to the entire chart

Quote:
and can cause ridiculous jacks...
this doesn't help your case

Quote:
vertex/delerium/etc gamma/delta/etc different files. If you cant AAA a 15minute 100 bpm 16th stream, why should you get credit for it by doing a 7.5/200/16.
if you're implying what I think you are, then you are seriously not understanding how rates work lol. if you can AAA 7.5 minutes of 200bpm 16th stream, you most definitely show that you are capable of an AAA on 15 minutes of 100bpm 16th stream.

Quote:
Different skill requirements. My reality AAA didnt fill out my 1-78 level ranks.
how this relevant at all lol

Quote:
I pushed for this shit back in the last official and it was made very clear as to why it wasnt going to happen. But feel free to selectively read this post and twist the words to what you need them to mean as to continue with these great "counter-arguments". I'm done here
I haven't selectively read a single post in this thread, I've replyed to all points made against rate scores. stop being a dickhead
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:48 PM   #45
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

I'm going to vote no for this. Although rates make most files harder, there will be no more difficulty for the longer, easier files like Song for the Nihonjins, Visions (NRGyzd) and so on. Mental stamina does come into play when considering these types of files; it's probably the reason why DSoK [Heavy] is an FMO.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:48 PM   #46
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by arcnmx View Post
Despite this, the timing window remains the same size which does make songs "easier" at the cost of speed.
I think it'd be safe to say that this would only affect higher division players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ___________ View Post
Mental stamina does come into play when considering these types of files
I don't think this is a very good point, as the majority of "these types of files" are simply not fun beyond possible nostalgia factor.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:55 PM   #47
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by choof View Post
I don't think this is a very good point, as the majority of "these types of files" are simply not fun beyond possible nostalgia factor.
True, true.
If we're looking to attract more players, then yes, record rates. I'm all for it!

EDIT:
Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnSkunk View Post
Um, what? Even on 1.1x rate, Song for the Nihonjins is no longer a 25. 120bpm =/= 132bpm. Give me an example of one stepfile that would be given a lower or equal difficulty rating on rates.
Actually, it's quite easy to rush the 8ths, which is why playing on rates might make it easier.
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Old 02-23-2014, 01:58 PM   #48
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by ___________ View Post
Although rates make most files harder, there will be no more difficulty for the longer, easier files like Song for the Nihonjins, Visions (NRGyzd) and so on.
Um, what? Even on 1.1x rate, Song for the Nihonjins is no longer a 25. 120bpm =/= 132bpm. Give me an example of one stepfile that would be given a lower or equal difficulty rating on rates.
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Old 02-23-2014, 02:02 PM   #49
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrawnSkunk View Post
Um, what? Even on 1.1x rate, Song for the Nihonjins is no longer a 25. 120bpm =/= 132bpm. Give me an example of one stepfile that would be given a lower or equal difficulty rating on rates.
he's referencing what arc said about timing and how it would make files "easier"

synthlight files would be slightly easier. I personally don't think synthlight files should still be a part of levelranks but that's a completely different topic
however I will say that if someone thinks that playing through the synthlight files is some sort of "badge," i suggest they read up on the definition of a game
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Old 02-23-2014, 03:16 PM   #50
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

also, this was talked about before in the previous thread, but it's definitely been addressed by the higher skill-level players, i.e. AJ and such, where cheating patterns like the skeletor roll by having a higher rate is /not/ worth the speed trade off for the initial jumpstream section. In order to cheat the ending rolls, you'd need something like a 1.2x or so, but the jumpstream gets dumb, and even the roll gets stupidly fast, so it's still dumb. If you have the skill to AAA the file before the rolls on 1.2, then you're most likely already able to AAA the file on 1.0. This is just an example though

also choof has been giving stuff about mirror, arguably mirror makes many files much easier than rates would make them.
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:09 PM   #51
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

trade off was the term I was looking for, thanks

I can't think of any files where it would be worth the trade off to play at higher rates for a single section
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Old 02-23-2014, 04:25 PM   #52
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

yes
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Old 02-23-2014, 08:57 PM   #53
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Sorry, I should know not to post when going on 19 hours awake with 4 hours of sleep, very rude of me, I apologize.

I will concede in 99.99% of situations, rates will make it harder, but its still the case that it usually requires an entirely different set of skills compared to the original file. It just seems weird and pointless to waste those scores on a system that barely credits you for them. All you really get out of it is the ability to shortcut your levelranks. If we're getting Raw Scoring with the site rework, would it be so hard to also figure out a system for rates scores? Maybe some sort of multiplier based on the rate so that assuming all AAA scores, the highest rate would be at the top of the leader board. I'll leave the exact math to someone more knowledgeable to which speed a 20g run is technically more impressive then an SDG. It would also be a good idea to limit it to multiples of 0.1x to avoid shenanigans.

If we want to ignore the other engines, then we might as well let them record for GTS and award credits. I mean you still have to push the buttons, if you are capable of playing at a higher speed for longer periods of time then someone else, why should you be held back. It certainly levels the playing field for gamewhore competitions without having to ban Vrofl. Also has the added benefit of a new time of contest, Vrofl speedrun, since it basically removes the minimum time required to gather that much GTS since you could spam as fast as your speed/stamina allow you.

As for mirror, I still say its going to make just as many songs harder as it would easier. And which songs it makes easier are entirely subjective, you might be better or worse at a certain pattern with one hand over the other (beyond just being left/right handed). But the difficulty of the song is the same generally speaking. I would say speed mods and scroll settings have a more universal effect on difficulty, but again its all subjective difficulty.

The point was that rates change what is challenging about a song, like mentioned before, mental stamina is just as much a skill as anything else. Sure a Turbo AAA would imply you are capable of AAAing Club, but you should still have to go back and do it if you want complete level ranks. Likewise, a score on a rates song would generally mean you can match or beat that score on the non-moded file, but you should still be expected to play it like the author intended if those are the scores you want to compete with.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:38 PM   #54
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega_grunt666 View Post
Sure a Turbo AAA would imply you are capable of AAAing Club, but you should still have to go back and do it if you want complete level ranks. Likewise, a score on a rates song would generally mean you can match or beat that score on the non-moded file, but you should still be expected to play it like the author intended if those are the scores you want to compete with.
This is a decent way to look at it.
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Old 02-23-2014, 09:43 PM   #55
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

It's like participating in 100m sprints with 50m sprint record with timer ticking twice as fast. I say no
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Old 02-23-2014, 10:25 PM   #56
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by omega_grunt666 View Post
Sorry, I should know not to post when going on 19 hours awake with 4 hours of sleep, very rude of me, I apologize.
sweg

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I will concede in 99.99% of situations, rates will make it harder, but its still the case that it usually requires an entirely different set of skills compared to the original file.
I would disagree. A file with rolls at a higher speed would require a higher ability to hit rolls. A file with jacks at a higher higher speed would require a higher ability to hit jacks.
Of course, at some point the rolls become jump trillable but like YoshL pointed out, the trade off won't ever be worth it.

Quote:
It just seems weird and pointless to waste those scores on a system that barely credits you for them. All you really get out of it is the ability to shortcut your levelranks.
See, here's the part I have an issue with. "Shortcut your levelranks?" Both you and qqwref have alluded to this, and it really makes no sense. Grinding levelranks isn't fun. Not only that, but levelranks are a pretty arbitrary and flawed way to determine someone's skill level. Compare someone like Staiain to Hakulyte.

Quote:
If we're getting Raw Scoring with the site rework, would it be so hard to also figure out a system for rates scores? Maybe some sort of multiplier based on the rate so that assuming all AAA scores, the highest rate would be at the top of the leader board.
I think this would be a bad idea. I wouldn't want an "achieved on x rate" next to a score on the leaderboards.

Quote:
I'll leave the exact math to someone more knowledgeable to which speed a 20g run is technically more impressive then an SDG.
This is totally subjective, and would probably be impossible to implement.

Quote:
It would also be a good idea to limit it to multiples of 0.1x to avoid shenanigans.
If rates were shown on leaderboards, I'd agree.

Quote:
As for mirror, I still say its going to make just as many songs harder as it would easier. And which songs it makes easier are entirely subjective, you might be better or worse at a certain pattern with one hand over the other (beyond just being left/right handed). But the difficulty of the song is the same generally speaking. I would say speed mods and scroll settings have a more universal effect on difficulty, but again its all subjective difficulty.
The issue with mirror is that the vast majority of people use mirror to make a file easier. Example: Hardkore Atomic.

Quote:
The point was that rates change what is challenging about a song, like mentioned before, mental stamina is just as much a skill as anything else.
What's meant by "mental stamina?" Blue Rose requires mental stamina. White Walls requires mental stamina. World Tour 2004 requires mental stamina. Synthlight files require that you suffer through a file with terrible sync and profanities should you happen to blink and get a good. That's not fun. That's frustrating.

Quote:
Sure a Turbo AAA would imply you are capable of AAAing Club
I know what you're trying to get at here but it doesn't relate to rates.

Quote:
Likewise, a score on a rates song would generally mean you can match or beat that score on the non-moded file, but you should still be expected to play it like the author intended if those are the scores you want to compete with.
If we were expected to play it like the author intended, then why are rates in the game in the first play? Players still have a choice to play the file at normal speed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leonid View Post
It's like participating in 100m sprints with 50m sprint record with timer ticking twice as fast. I say no
This analogy would fit if FFR was a contest 24/7. During Officials, I definitely agree that rate scores shouldn't count. Not for any particular reason, only because of the "spirit of competition." Or something.

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Old 02-23-2014, 10:41 PM   #57
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

What are the arguments as to why rates should be allowed on the leaderboard?
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:05 PM   #58
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

because it makes ffr fun for people who want to go through level ranks, and gives incentive to play easier songs.

it makes ffr more fun for those people, and doesn't make it any less fun for anyone else.
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:13 PM   #59
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

If I play something like For FFR ending and throw some higher rates on, can I jumptrill AAA more easily because the framers are closer at higher speedmod?
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Old 02-23-2014, 11:30 PM   #60
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Default Re: Rates higher than 1.0 should record

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hakulyte View Post
If I play something like For FFR ending and throw some higher rates on, can I jumptrill AAA more easily because the framers are closer at higher speedmod?
tested, i can cheat the final roll starting at about 1.3x. however, the splitroll transition into the 4321 gets even more shitty as fuck, and i drop 10+ goods and like 5+ averages each time (this is through isolation)

edit:

and there's still like, 230~ish bpm stream if you play it on 1.3, which is not entirely fun.

for the rating of file that it is (67), and comparing it to some other stuff, like gacha radio, JULIAN, Oops, etc.
if you can hit the 230 bpm stuff and AAA it, then you can (in theory) also AAA the rest of the file on 1.0x, but the file has the dumb rolls at the end. comparitively, extratone pirates is slower than for ffr on 1.3

edit2:
from my understanding, it takes like, the ms placement and squishes that together for rates, so you would be able to jumptrill "cheat" things easier on rates (i completely ignored the initial question sorry haku)
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