Old 10-24-2006, 06:11 PM   #41
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

The switching roles thing wasn't what was unfair about the game.

It was the ability for the wolves to kill 4 in one night no matter what as long as they last until night 4. Imagine a game in which the wolves get 2 kills per night, even though there is FOUR OF THEM. That's basically what this was. The only reason the humans did as well as we did is because we got two wolves right off the bat.

And Kilga, the "cheating" was just people saying things about their role from the PM. Example:

A: oh you're a time blocker? What's your abilities?
B: my powers are *xxxxxxx*.

How is that cheating? How would it have played out if the person had been seer?

A: oh you're the seer, huh? What's your powers?
B: I look at a player each night and I know if they're human or wolf.

Would that have been cheating?
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:23 PM   #42
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

I went over this with Stoic once, and there is, in fact, a difference.

In iggy's big huge Day 3 post, he said that Shash "knew all the parts of his role". This implies that iggy got Shash to produce every intricacy of the time blocker role, not just a general "oh you're this? what does it do" etc. In fact, iggy wouldn't need to have done that because he was one himself (and even admitted as such on Day 1).

Now, why is this different from "oh, you're the seer? what can you do etc."? Because everyone and their mother knows what a seer's basic functions are. The seer has been used a kajillion times in the past. The time blocker role was unique to this game, so no one would have prior knowledge of how it worked because it had never existed before.

Stoic not only did not make the number of roles public knowledge, he did not make their names or functions public knowledge either. This means that every single role unique to this game had PM-exclusive information in it. When iggy heard Shash's time blocker description, he matched it up with his own to confirm Shash's status as a time blocker, thereby using PM-exclusive information to prove humanity (Shash not actually being human being irrelevant), because if Shash never got a time blocker PM how would he know the exact specifics of the role? The odds of a wolf making a bunch of **** up on the fly and not only producing every single specific but not leaving any out either are so small it's laughable to think it will ever happen in our lifetime.

This is not to say that asking about role specifics is inherently illegal. The act of using Shash's answers and matching them up with his own to confirm Shash as a time blocker is where iggy cheated.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:26 PM   #43
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilgamayan View Post
But the 12 blues were.

This wasn't unfair in the slightest. You guys got schooled because Hans played an awesome game and iggy's cheating backfired 100%. If you had outplayed us then you would've won. 'Zat simple.
ok out of the 12 blues

4 TT time blockers were useless
Forensic scientist was only useful for vigi kills and to verify that i was a blue, so that doesn't really count because no harm was done to the wolves
vigilante, legit blue
Master seer, legit blue
coroner, legit blue
pupil seer: ONLY A BLUE ONCE THE MASTER SEER DIED. in this case, they both died at the same time.
guardian: legit blue
TT guardian: legit ONLY BECAUSE he can guard for the present
psychic: legit blue

so in reality, 6 or 7 blues that actually had a real effect on the game.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:28 PM   #44
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

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4 TT time blockers were useless
Not the wolves' fault none of you decided to block Shash on Night 4.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:29 PM   #45
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Why would they? he was a confirmed human.

or so they thought.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:30 PM   #46
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

So Shash played a good game. You should've played a better one.

All of your excuses can be thrown under the general heading of "the wolves outplayed the humans". The only legitimate argument that could be made was the random extra kill.
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Old 10-24-2006, 06:45 PM   #47
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

it's not hard to play a good game when the rules spoonfeed it to you

seriously i don't even think jwcgator could have ****ed that one up
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:12 PM   #48
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

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Originally Posted by Kilgamayan View Post
You should've played a better one.
Humans didn't stand a chance with the night 4 massacre. Humans played wonderfully and still got owned. If we hadn't played wonderfully, then the game would have been over day 4.
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Old 10-24-2006, 07:21 PM   #49
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Not really...you and iggy are part of the reason we won. You couldn't stay off each other's backs, both on some retarded power trip to try and take control of the game.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:31 PM   #50
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Quote:
Originally Posted by afro
It's funny... Iggy, why would you be willing to have sert vigi shash, but then NOT GIVE IN TO LYNCHING HIM THE NEXT DAY ((((((
Because shash later proved his role to me lol. Now had I thought there could be a wolf time blocker then I may have gone with it, but that didn't cross my mind.

@Kilga: Actually if you think about it, the cheating contributed to our lose (ironic no?)

Had I not "cheated" to get shash's info I would have lynched him instead of cypher thus leaving the wolves with hans. I may not have gotten hans but that's besides the point.

But then again maybe afro and tokzic wouldn't have trusted me either. Still, IMO, doing what I did hurt more than helped.

@hans: half the time I was yelling at afro just for show. That's why I switched to fojar (because he went with afro). I told everyone that I 100% trusted afro (which is why I gave him a role list) and I really wanted to see if anyone would jump on that. I don't know if afro was doing the same but there was no way I was going to let afro be lynched XD.

Nevertheless it was distracting, but the thing is is that my trust list went afro, tokzic, sert, vash, hans, tps, and matt. So even if I did find shash, you were so high on my trust list that I probably would have never voted you.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:36 PM   #51
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

OH and I do agree that 4 kills was a lot IF we didn't kill two wolves day1. Face it afro, the game was in our favor and we still lost.

But IMO the game was too highly stacked for both sides (even though I underestimated the wolves's arsenal) basically any one action could cause the victory or defeat of the other team. (Hence the big win for 12 blues initially and the huge lose for the 4 kills in one night) I wouldn't mind playing this again, but definitely can't balance a game by adding stuff, it's better to just take things out.
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Old 10-24-2006, 10:48 PM   #52
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Yeah, my thing with iggy was definitely just for show by the end. I was definitely up for lynching him at one point, but he brought me to my senses by reminding me what happened when stoic sent the wrong PM about tps and we had talked about it for a while because iggy said "oops stoic sent the wrong pm" and right after that stoic IM'd me and told me he was sending a new PM.

Really, no offense to stoic, but he's not exactly the best host ever. I think I heard something about him saying something about talisman being the TT guardian to iggy (this had already been confirmed by that point so it didn't really matter, but still) and another time he confirmed something to me (either that there was 4 wolves total or that there were 2 wolves already dead... I can't remember exactly, and again, I already knew as much anyway). Not only that, but he tried to balance this by letting the wolves kill more than half of our men in one night. That didn't balance it at all. All it did was move the scale from being in favor of humans winning to being in favor of wolves winning. If we hadn't done so well in the first day, the game would have been over at the beginning of day 4, and last I checked, giving the humans 3 days to get one wolf isn't normal practice.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:24 PM   #53
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

This game would of made a lot more sense and enjoyable if iggy would of been a wolf. As is.. I think iggy/afro played awful.
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Old 10-24-2006, 11:37 PM   #54
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

To adress afro and other's infinite complaints:

The game would be similar to a game in which the wolves get 2 kills every other night not every night, as you claimed. If they hadn't saved up their extra fuel and had just been killing 2 players on even nights, you wouldn't be complaining nearly as much. Your dislike for the structure of the game is originated entirely in the fact that you and iggy both believed what a lying wolf told you. Hans and Shash both played an amazing game and it's not my fault you guys believed Hans. You were content sitting within your unshakable alliance and you didn't want to even entertain the possibility that maybe, just maybe, you didn't know everything. Clearly with all "confirmed" humans, someone was lying, so I don't see where you felt it appropriate to believe your information 100%. The device thief had the wolves' time machine originally, but had the option of handing it off each night, or upon death. This is why blocks failed at one point. For the people questioning the "Time Travel Wolf" role I hinted at, basically they were all TT wolves. They traveled to the past and killed as a team, but for the sake of the blockers, one of them was keeping the machine, and that player could change. The 4 kill massacre was the wolves reward for using nearly none of the special abilities they had (read: kills) up until that point. They were patiently waiting for the exact right time and it paid off. You and Iggy were taking so much of the attention off of them that it was clearly the better call. Feel free to ask Hans and Shash, I questioned them on numerous occasions about killing either you or Iggy, but they waited for a better time.

About messing up PM(s). Yes, I copied the PM structure from a failed block into 2 PMs (afro & iggy) that should have been a sucessful block. Thankfully TPS wasn't killed because of this. About everything else, I gave quite a bit of information to the players that were interested enough to talk to me about the game. Iggy talked to me the entire time and I'm sure he had a lot more knowlege of the game because of it. You can call it revealing or slipping if you want, but I answered all questions truthfully and fairly, and in the multiple situations in which someone asked me something I felt they shouldn't know, I told them such. If you want to play the game, don't complain about the people who are playing it better than you can. We're all busy. I'm a full time college student along with many others, but I still managed to write at least a half a page for the start of each day and night and nearly every PM I sent out, which I assure you was a fair amount with 16 special roles. Not to mention answering the numerous questions about the game itself. Iggy asked me the most questions followed next by probably one of afro/shash/hans, and they probably did better because of it.

About the huge power each side had: Yes, that was part of the game idea, and I figured that with mystery roles all of you innocent humans wouldn't run straight to the first person that wanted to hold your hand. Seriously. I can see the other blockers going to Iggy right away and having a decent reason to trust him, but everyone else? From how I understand it, Iggy straight lied to all of you to gain your trust. Go ahead and try that next time a brave wolf wants to claim a role. The main idea was to give everyone a power, amazing game breaking power or not, and let them sort of work independantly. I had assumed that with mystery roles, no one would be so trusting. The wolves multi-kill per night potential was needed to counteract 12 blue roles including one that could essentially ressurect a nearly confirmed human each and every night. That's the TT guardian for the slow. The balance to that role's amazing power was the fact that as soon as he died, most if not all of his resurrected buddies would die as well, timeline pending of course. So the game was essentially a race. Humans had overwhelming information, that they used quite poorly, to aid them in finding the wolves before their power roles were killed, and the wolves had multiple kills per night, potentially, as well as a wolf seer, which was barely used, in order to find and kill the most threatening roles.

There are far too many things to consider when balancing this game, and so it was quite obvious ahead of time that the loosing team would claim it stacked against them. My initial perception was that it was clearly stacked against the wolves. If talisman had not died N1, there would have been even more information than there already was. People would be coming back each night from N2 and on with "nearly confirmed" status. This game was clearly won with Talisman's status as a good player, eliminating a crucial role, and the Hans/Shash duo of decpetion. Any claims about stacked teams could be argued either way indefinitely, but well thought out actions won it for the wolves. That's all I have to add unless there are any specific questions people would like answered. (AKA the second vigi kill not happening because I decided pre-game that wolves' actions would happen before human's in the event that it mattered)
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:01 AM   #55
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

But that doesn't change the fact that you left a LOT of information out in the open, which is the reason why Tps, Mini, Matt and Vash died. Everybody else's roles were identified. I mean, you even stated that sertman was the VIGI after we killed him. Had you kept your information a little more private, things might have ended differently.

EDIT: Directed to iggy.
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Old 10-25-2006, 12:18 AM   #56
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

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Originally Posted by iggymatrixcounter View Post
@Kilga: Actually if you think about it, the cheating contributed to our lose (ironic no?)

Had I not "cheated" to get shash's info I would have lynched him instead of cypher thus leaving the wolves with hans. I may not have gotten hans but that's besides the point.

But then again maybe afro and tokzic wouldn't have trusted me either. Still, IMO, doing what I did hurt more than helped.
I'm fully aware. This is why I never actually pulled the trigger. ;D
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:03 AM   #57
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Afro, we lost, just take it and play better next game XD.

I did leave a lot of info slip out at times, but that was partially me and what the situation called for. I didn't want to play the whole game by myself, yes I probably could have won if I did EVERYTHING by myself but after knowing everyone was a blue, I was carefree about info. Especially to those who I trusted (hans lol).

At one point I did think about posting everything and let the thread decide the fates of others, but I wouldn't have any leverage and if you just looked at a list, then I would be pretty low on it so I had to keep myself alive.

I did lie to people to get roles, yes, but all with the good intention of the ultimate goal of a win XD.

I did feel that stoic revealed things to me, but it's not like I was pumping info from him. I had lots of questions because there were a lot of senarios I needed explained, and I really didn't get a lot of it explained to me. For example I think I asked him about if there was a certain role, how would you rule this senario... stuff like that. Some got answers others got rejections.

I'm happy with this game, yea we got screwed in the end but that was the funniest thing ever seeing all my best guys die in one swipe. And I still trusted hans rofl.
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Old 10-25-2006, 11:51 AM   #58
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

I'd have to say the only REAL mistake I feel like I made this game was telling Iggy "The wolves could've known who to kill via process of elimination". I hadn't realized that that wasn't obvious, but luckily I don't think Iggy picked it up as a count against me.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:37 PM   #59
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

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I hadn't realized that that wasn't obvious, but luckily I don't think Iggy picked it up as a count against me.
I had already said the same thing. If that hadn't been true, iggy or I had to be a wolf, and at that point, I was sure that he was human.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stoic
Any claims about stacked teams could be argued either way indefinitely
That's what the problem is. It wasn't balanced at all. The game would be easily slanted to one side as certain things happen.

And yeah, that 4 in one kill... seriously. We had 3 days in which to find one red. If we hadn't gotten one red by the end of day 3, it would have been game over. Letting them have 2 kills every other night would have been more fair than letting them save them up. Hell, why didn't the wolves just not kill anyone until they had enough kills saved up to totally own the humans in one night? I mean, I guess they did that by just saving up 4, but I would have saved up for the whole game and killed like 8 at once, just to **** with people (and also to expose how ridiculous that is).

And everyone is saying that shash and hans played so well. Hans was to be on the chopping block the next day. Shash would have been right after hans. The only reason you guys say that they played so well is that the 4 in one night kill allowed them to be able to win.

ps
Quote:
you and iggy both believed what a lying wolf told you.
No, iggy believed him. I just put shash ahead of fojar in my suspicions because I trusted Iggy. I seriously had no allegience to shash, and the only reason I wasn't all over him was because Iggy trusted him, and that was enough for me.

pps "shash and hans played well". Ha! One more day and it'd have been a loss for them.

EDIT: By the way, from now on, whenever someone has an idea that would totally annhialate one side in the way that kill saving did in this game, run it by Tass or something so he can convince you that it's a bad idea and that it won't balance the game at all.
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Old 10-25-2006, 01:44 PM   #60
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Default Re: TWG XXXVII Postgame - Wolves win

Shash would have died night 3 if I hadn't died. Iggy was already on to him, no matter how unfair his role was.

Hans WAS on the chopping block next, as Afro said. So to say that they played "a great game" is totally untrue.
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