Suicide.

[tyler2zelda]

Originally Posted by masterhickle

I don't care who hates me for this (I know someone will). Mental illnesses aside, Suicide is selfish. There's always a reason to continue living. If you can't find that reason, you just don't care enough about the people around you, whether or not you think you care.

This I have to respond to.

I care -too- much about the people around me. And that's probably one of the reasons I've tried to leave the world. I care, but there's nothing I can do for them. And what's the point of caring if that's all you can do? Can you always do something for them when they get hurt, or sick, or if something else happens to them? A lot of people can, yeah, but there are people such as myself who literally cannot do anything to help.

If I had the ability to actually be a helpful person, rather than someone who can only say they care and that's it, I wouldn't have tried to off myself in the first place.

And suicide isn't always a selfish act. Imagine, if you will, someone thousands and thousands of dollars in debt, no job, no house, no immediate family, barely able to feed themselves, sick, the works. Is it really selfish then?

[masterhickle]

And suicide isn't always a selfish act. Imagine, if you will, someone thousands and thousands of dollars in debt, no job, no house, no immediate family, barely able to feed themselves, sick, the works. Is it really selfish then?

Are we to assume this is the case for every suicide?

There is always somewhere to turn if you have the will to go on. Most everyone has that one friend that would do anything to keep you from committing suicide, to the point of taking you in until you get back on your feet.

I'd write more now, but I'm on break at work. I'll elaborate a little bit more later.

[blade_anime]

I'm not sure if I'd classify it as "selfish." After all, some people do it because they actually think that they are doing everybody else a favor.

[basicdrummerman]

Originally Posted by blade_anime

think that they are doing everybody else a favor.

^this, trust me. I know...

[AsphyxZero]

While suicide probably isn't morally right, everyone has a right to it.

[Yieldsign]

thats a pretty big presumption there. i dont think you'll find any ethic that can deem suicide as "unethical" without creating some pretty gaping contradictions/reductio ad absurdums

[Endrilliance]

Originally Posted by Aldentron

On another note, would you consider martyr-ism or sacrifice a form of suicide? That is the only way I can see suicide as not being selfish, as in leaping in front of a bullet to save a friend or push a child out of the way of a speeding car.

Well hell, I hope no one does. I've taken a bullet in the back for Aerei AND I've been hit by a car while preventing my much smaller (yet, still elder) sister from being hit by the same car.

Though, clearly I am not quite dead yet. The car incident did break my left arm and (still puzzled by this one) my right pinky toe.

[-Barista-]

Everyone likes the outlook on life that there's always more to live for. It's just optimistic thinking while they don't ever consider that there really isn't more to live for. That statement and my statement are merely opinions.

I actually, not so much as like but, do think that life is incredibly boring and I would off myself given the right circumstances. I do hate the thought that my parents would miss me which is probably why I haven't. I pretty much hold everything together for my family.

As for the whole thing being selfish or not, it probably is. But being selfish isn't necessarily a bad thing.

[ledwix]

Life is the perpetuation of selfish entities. Thus we are selfish by default, since we are the only conscious entity inhabiting our bodies; no one else is. By reproducing and having more than 2 kids per family, we are making even more selfish entities appear. And all of these entities, like you and me, HAVE to perpetuate themselves, because it is considered cruel to leave people behind, which is because we intuitively understand what it is like to be left behind ourselves.

If you don't take care of yourself, who else will? When you wake up in the morning, you are the only person who can reasonably be expected to dress yourself and feed yourself, etc. It would be nonsensical to allocate such tasks mutually, such as having everyone feed each other and brush each other's teeth, etc. Sure, it can feel very warm and fuzzy when random acts of kindness are spread, but overall, selfishness with occasional altruistic anomalies is far more practical than true altruism.

Therefore, suicide is also selfish. But no one else can suicide for you...that's murder. So if you want to kill yourself, you know you will hurt others, while stopping pain inside yourself. It's a balance of who gets hurt more, you by living or others by having you not live. There are some situations where suicide is desirable...like while being tortured. Some people feel perpetually tortured by some post-traumatic stress disorder or early-childhood sexual abuse, and so for them, suicide seems like the best option.

[blade_anime]

You know, in Europe at one point, attempting suicide was punishable by death.

[MarioNintendo]

Originally Posted by Without A Contraceptive

not to sound crass or crude but i feel strongly that suicide is a weak, "selfish" action.

While the consequences of suicide are all listed in your post, I don't believe it is a selfish action. I also don't think it's a heroic action. I've always seen suicide as despair pushed to the extreme, nothing more, nothing less.

In my opinion, every time you face a problem in your life, you have options on how to get through it. Suicide may be an option listed among many others from the whole beginning, but you wouldn't give it that much importance. However, I believe that, with every other trouble you encounter, that list of options shortens, so much so that all that is left is suicide.

Again, I am no expert in this, but this is how I feel about it.

[Vendetta21]

Every time I've considered suicide (passingly) in the past it has usually been for reasons which could be roughly reduced to at some point not liking the situation I'm in, having it be persistent, and also have no will or capacity to fix the situation. Usually connected to the idea of being nothing but a drain on others.

The following rationalizations to make the act less horrific are usually things that disregard the human paradigm, and try to create a sense of connection with non-human aspects of reality. I.E. I am made of particles that won't disappear (and they get more complex and nuanced from there.)

The basic reason that you don't commit suicide is because when seriously considering it you have to take into account those who will feel the pain of you not being around or the bare, sheer horror of consciousness void. If that does not exist or for some reason you do not care about it, I imagine suicide becomes a thousand times easier.

Though suicide always seems like it stems from an incredibly solipsistic way of thinking.

Worth separating here is people who claim suicide in order to get attention, in which I think a completely different set of issues arises.

[Izwik]

I never liked bumping threads, but I feel since I haven't seen any points I'd like to make in the thread already, that I should state them.

First of all, I don't think any of you are thinking of this nearly enough.

What makes suicide selfish first of all? Leaving the people who care about you. But what if no one cares about you? Also, wouldn't it be selfish of the people who care about you to guilt you into suffering through life?

People have different views on death. What if there's a purgatory, a heaven or a hell, reincarnation, some kind of spiritual plane of existence? No one knows. Maybe this person just wants to leave this world and go to the next, in the hopes that they'll have better luck. In this sense, the person could be thinking about suicide in an entirely logical manner.

[PlayTrumpet]

I think it's unfortunate if people think they won't experience something better in THIS world. Sure, your life can suck. It can suck ALL the time - but I believe that there is nothing after this world. Suicide doesn't allow a release, it allows nothing. Once you're dead, you're not happy, you're not relieved to be away from the saddness of life; your consciousness is nonexistent (from my belief).

So, I don't know about calling suicide selfish, because I don't believe YOU gain anything from it. I do, however, call it unfortunate and sad. It's sad that some people have to live horrible lives or otherwise have reason to be extremely depressed. But this is the world where extreme sadness and extreme joy do coexist, and suicide is not a solution but rather it is nothingness.

We could always get into the discussion of assisted suicide, or about people who medically can not live a better life or a life without certain physical conditions, but right now I'm more focused on those for whom suicide is not a decision based on these things.

[Thatskier]

People may think there reasons are "legit". But in all honesty, life can always get better, the world is far to incredible and just purely amazing that suicide should never be a choice. I can rarely think of one or two cases were suicide is nessesary. That would be if you are in so much extreme pain and are in the hostiple 24/7 ( such as some older people like to be put down because they are in just to much pain to enjoy life anymore as they have already lived and fulfilled a glorious life). The only other reason is if the person has been breaking the law to much ( killing ALOT of people, and not even learning a tad bit from those bad lessons [sometimes you cannot cure someone who just likes killing]) In which they would serve a better purpose as the society to just die ( can anyone say death row?). Listen, life is always a window full of opertunties dont let some road blocks slow you down (or kill you).

[midnghtraver]

Originally Posted by Thatskier

People may think there reasons are "legit". But in all honesty, life can always get better, the world is far to incredible and just purely amazing that suicide should never be a choice. I can rarely think of one or two cases were suicide is nessesary. That would be if you are in so much extreme pain and are in the hostiple 24/7 ( such as some older people like to be put down because they are in just to much pain to enjoy life anymore as they have already lived and fulfilled a glorious life). The only other reason is if the person has been breaking the law to much ( killing ALOT of people, and not even learning a tad bit from those bad lessons [sometimes you cannot cure someone who just likes killing]) In which they would serve a better purpose as the society to just die ( can anyone say death row?). Listen, life is always a window full of opertunties dont let some road blocks slow you down (or kill you).

I agree with you here. However as of so far, suicide is not a choice, its illigal. I hope that when i'm older, I may have the choice to end it cleanly with the help of a medical professional.

Accept your second point. Death Row is not suicide.

[blade_anime]

Many on death row don't die for years, quiet a few die of natural causes. And being there SUCKS.

[eastsideman09]

Quite the discussion. I think I should mention that I have not once contemplated suicide. I have considered, however, how the lives of others would be effected had I not existed/were to die, but I think that's a different situation. I also consider myself a fairly level-headed and strong individual.

Originally Posted by darkshark

Several people stated that suicide is selfish because the people around you love you and would be more than willing to help you...what if they're not? What if you're going through a horrible emotional or physical battle, and you literally have no one to turn to. Say your mom abandons you, she hates you. Your dad died. You have no friends. You spend each day in solitude and do nothing but think about the horrible things happening in your life. No one would care. Would you end it? After all, people don't show they love you until you're gone.

Rather than end your life, why not take strides in changing it? Your suicide would/should be your own decision, not done in spite of everything/anyone surrounding you.
I would think the self-motivation it takes to change yourself or your situation would be the same as the self-motivation it takes to truly want to end yourself, if not easier (optimism wouldn't hurt, either). This includes the people with mental disorders, albeit depends on the severity.

Originally Posted by Izzy

Your life is your own. Being able to choose for yourself what you want to do with your life should be your own freedom.

I agree, and I'd like to add, as far as dealing with someone's suicide, that expressing/understanding your emotions is important. Be sad "that" it happened, not "because" it happened; the cause was self-imposed, you shouldn't concern yourself with the intricacies of others when you have yourself to deal with first and foremost.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

For me, talking to someone did absolutely nothing. I had friends listen to me, I had counselors listen to me. So what? It didn't accomplish anything.

With that attitude, of course it didn't.

Originally Posted by Cavernio

Honestly, sit down and think about it. Say you know you're mentally ****ed up, and you know that it's going to be a challenge for you to just do everyday things for the rest of your life

Embrace, accept, and conquer that challenge. If it were easy, it wouldn't be called a challenge, and in the end, you will benefit and become a stronger individual with a greater sense of self.

Originally Posted by Reincarnate

But what's important to note is that relative to the person experiencing the lack of will to live, those other options are either unknown or not worth pursuing.

I understand this concept, but I can't empathize with it, and I think that's a good thing. I'm not sure how this effects my interpretation/opinion of the matter, either. I'd like to think I'm not just blowing smoke.

Originally Posted by Izwik

What makes suicide selfish first of all?

For it to be legitimately justified, shouldn't it be? After all, it's a decision you make for yourself.

If the actions of other people are effecting you enough to shatter your stability, you probably weren't stable enough to begin with. Allowing yourself to break is what makes you weak, and acting upon that is not justifiable. Getting broken against your will (rape, accidents, being born with __, etc) and suffering the trauma as a result is a completely different scenario, and I wouldn't know about any of that. I know mental disorders can be treated, and I know they range in severity. I'd like to think most people with them still possess the ability to fix/change themselves before suicide is seriously considered, and it's their willpower that will determine their strength or weakness. I understand suicide is typically a last resort, but how will you ever know whether or not it actually is your only/last option if you succeed? By doing so you're eliminating any possibility of growth and recovery.

Suicide shouldn't be a spur of the moment kind of thing, you should know yourself and fully understand the situation you're in. Don't stop searching for possibilities until all are found, don't stop your introspection until you know yourself (and you won't truly find your identity until your brain has finished maturing). When you do, then you can ask yourself: Is it worth it? Are you sure? Are you REALLY sure? Ask yourself that for both scenarios, life and death, before you choose one. (At least that's how I think I would go about handling it.)

Originally Posted by Izwik

People have different views on death. What if there's a purgatory, a heaven or a hell, reincarnation, some kind of spiritual plane of existence? No one knows. Maybe this person just wants to leave this world and go to the next, in the hopes that they'll have better luck.

That reasoning would require a leap of faith into the unknown. On the same token, you can take that same leap in pursuing life, rather than ending it, because you never know what it will bring you.

[yo man im awesome]

Originally Posted by UnkownMan

People keep saying "well what if s/he has no friends". Maybe if they stop being a whiny bitch and actually talk to people, they'd get some.

In my opinion, I would think it's considerably harder to see that option. When you're in that position, I would think people generally think towards the worse/worst case scenarios, and when they finally come to when they try to find help, sometimes suicide is the first option, rather than talking to someone. People who are suicidal probably find it much more difficult to muster up the courage to talk to someone, they feel that it wouldn't help.

[Betsy7Cat]

A quote I heard in Health class the other day: "Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem."
Of course, while experiencing a problem, it can feel as though it'll never end. But from what I've noticed, things seem complicated until you figure them out, and then they seem so much easier. In the same way, waiting 5 minutes for something may seem like forever, but then looking back at that amount of time, personally, that 5 minutes suddenly actually feels like it was indeed only 5 minutes. (Although I might just have a good sense of time, or maybe it's just because I tend to be a literalist, see things logically/mathematically, and stuff like that.)
In other words, said problem (or problems) feel permanent while being experienced, but when they end, looking back in hindsight, said problems are then, by logic, temporary.
So what I think that quote is supposed to do is help people realize that life problems are temporary. Except now I'm remembering the mental illness factor. Although coping mechanisms can make at least the worst part of that problem temporary. But of course, if there is an inability to develop coping mechanisms… well… wait. I think I'm just going in a circle with this one. At least that's where it seems to be going. Not to mention I'm probably just saying the same thing over and over in different ways. Anyway… end paragraph.

Personally, if I need stuff to stop, I play games, do origami, take a nap, have a snack, or maybe even try to figure out how to stop the root of the problem. I don't think that works for everyone though. I tend to have a strong "mental check" (double-checking for consequenses and such) for extreme things like the one being discussed, and not everyone has that. I don't think it's easy to develop either. Especially these days, where people can get impatient if they have to wait any amount of time. Not that everyone does of course. But too many do, and impatience often makes others feel rushed, and rushing often leads to unwanted negative aspects that would likely not exist had there not been rushing. It can lead to positive things as well of course, like if there was no deadline for anything, less things would get done. But if the negative aspects are major, such as too much stress leading to depression… well dangit, I lost my train of thought.

Well, I hope at least some of that made sense. And I hope it wasn't too tangential, either. I tend to do that a lot.