Public opinion poll on Etterna Chord cohesion removal

[shakesoda]

Originally Posted by mwes

As much as OK_mine is stupid and against the nature of vsrg, i would like this discussion not be held in this thread.

aight

on the actual topic I'm not a big fan of cc either, but it's way less stupid on pad than kb

[DeadSignal]

thanks for clearing things up mina, I was very much looking forward to a public stance from you on that topic


as I see it, the reason as to why people tend to resort to mentalities in regards to them feeling entitled to playing the game "however they want" stems from them being all-around unreceptive to the idea that the meta can still very much evolve for the better, for whatever their reasons may be

furthermore, an evolution of such a caliber very much revolves around the enforcement of new efficient standards - call it black-or-white thinking, or whatever the fuck you want really, but honestly if that is what it takes to push the game forward then so be it


that being said, while I still perceive my initial stance as being logically valid in some capacity, I am very much willing to concede it in favor of the benefits of forced wife + unscaled cc off implementation which are not only comparatively far more tangible in nature, but also offer a more stable foundation in regards to things that are to come


I do look forward to seeing to what extent unscaled cc off will end up changing things however, though I suppose it will take a while

[AutotelicBrown]

Originally Posted by DeadSignal

that being said, while I still perceive my initial stance as being logically valid in some capacity

In no point of your first post you actually support your stance logically. More precisely:

My personal answer to that question is the following: I honestly do not see how less-experienced players within the game can benefit at all from disabling CC, as their playstyles lack the requisite physical control to even make anything out of the added visual feedback.

Even if this was true, it doesn't imply disabling CC is a detriment (i.e. it could be neutral instead). You actually have to show some disadvantage of having no CC to ground your claims.

Also note it's not a matter of only adding feedback on top of what exists, you are replacing the misleading feedback given by CC.

[blindreper1179]

Idk what way is which, all I know is I hate you have hit all the arrows to hit any of the arrows.

[choof]

well there ya have it folkz

[TheNoSoMan]

I wonder how the removal of chord cohesion will affect scores for jump heavy charts like True Vertex Gamma and S.Y.S.T.E.M.

[Shadow_God_10]

Just want to make sure I'm on the same page about this.

Chords/Hands- 3 notes as 1 note.

What we're saying is 3 notes should be counted as 3?

[mwes]

basically, yes.

[Shadow_God_10]

Next question: would this affect jumps as well? because jumps are also counted as a single note

So basically what will happen is if you FC a song your combo will be exactly the same as the total amount of notes as opposed to what we have now (notes being less than combo due to jumps/chords counting as a single note)

If that's the case then I wouldn't mind if it was removed, it'd be a refreshing change to what we're all used to doing and I think it's one that could make playing more enjoyable for all of us as a whole!

[Dinglesberry]

yes it affebts jamps

[Dynam0]

Originally Posted by MinaciousGrace

mirror isnt cheating

triggered

[choof]

Originally Posted by Dynam0

triggered

mad cuz bad

[leonid]

You can argue that any option that alters the chart in any way is cheating or at least they need to be in a separate ranking, but almost all of the modern rhythm games consider mirror, random, and super random legit so
I mean if we want to be super pedantic we need to start over the whole "cmod is cheating, xmod that isn't 1x is cheating etc" discussion

[blindreper1179]

mirror isn't really cheating, but like, use it or don't.

[ilikexd]

Originally Posted by leonid

You can argue that any option that alters the chart in any way is cheating or at least they need to be in a separate ranking, but almost all of the modern rhythm games consider mirror, random, and super random legit so

I think the most reasonable rule is one button for every input and one input for every button.

You can't really disable/ban mirror because you could just flip your monitor upside down (or horizontally using software) and rearrange the key bindings. Likewise you could just bind the AKSL keys for left, up, down, right to simulate the Left or Right mod.

Or you could use the arrow keys and the placement of your left and right hands' index fingers on the up and down keys would determine which trills would be one-handed. It'd be hard to argue playing like that is cheating any more than using your index and ring finger is cheating rather than index and middle finger.

The thing is, I don't think any of these things alter the chart. Charts have a sequence of notes in a certain order. Whether you hit 1234 with ASKL, AKSL, <v^>, or <^v>, you're playing the chart as it is. Each of the numbers just has to correspond with the same input for the duration of the chart, so of the things you listed, only randomizing alters this.

[leonid]

Just to be clear I'm on the "S.Shuffle is legit" side

[MinaciousGrace]

i would consider anything that alters the physical dimensions of a chart as needing to be treated as a score on that altered state of the chart, and not on the original; ie a 1.4 rockefeller street super shuffle aa isn't a rockefeller street 1.4 aa, it's a rockefeller street super shuffle aa (also an aside, s. shuffle would be more legit if it weren't so badly coded such that it produces insane left arrow bias)

this is because transforming the chart alters the physical difficulty of the chart which is sort of the entire concept of the difficulty/rating system, the only exception to this is mirror, since any chart fed to the calc will produce the same output difficulty independent of whether or not mirror is enabled

in this way it functionally operates more like a visual modifier than a chart modifier (also tbf people realized this prior to any calculator being invented)

and continuing from that the whole visual modifiers being legit/notlegit etc etc discussion is kind of stupid

it would be like arguing marathon runners who wear sunglasses to block out sunlight while they run are cheating

in fact that argument would be more viable than the whole "cmod isn't legit" shit

there is a tacit understanding in any competitive physical sport that certain personal preferences that don't improve physical performance in an unfair manner are game

wearing/not wearing gloves in a nascar race isn't grounds for disqualification
playing tennis with your visor on backwards isn't cheating
running a 400m sprint with oakleys isnt cheating

there is also a tacit understanding that intentionally crippling your own physical performance in a competitive physical sport is just stupid

you don't see olympic curlers brag about coming in second to last because they were looking through a kaleidoscope the entire time
you don't see competitive slalom racers brag about barely finishing a course without going out of bounds by intentionally exposing themselves to snow blindness by not wearing any goggles
i wouldn't be surprised if that roller skater in your sig did boast about narrowly coming in second despite an early celebration crippling his first place run, but we'd also all agree that if he did he's a moron

now i wouldnt call stepmania a competitive physical sport but lets be real in the age of "esports" it along with itg are the closest things that exist

basically what i'm trying to say is the "cmod is cheating" argument is only valid if you see the game in a fundamentally different light

it's not necessarily wrong, but it is in many ways the same as comparing poker to tennis

they're just two completely different games and trying to reconcile the rules and practices of the one with the other is an idiotic exercise in futility

[MinaciousGrace]

just to be clear i'm on the "i believe players have the capacity to recognize the few instances when other players are intentionally trying to make files easier through abuse of the super shuffle algorithm to break up heavy jack files and in all other instances recognize that it makes files much more difficult" side

[MinaciousGrace]

one could invoke the slippery scope argument as well

"anything but 1x xmod is cheating"
"all players must play on a dell model 'bigrubber' 1984 rubberdome keyboard"
"any monitor above 30hz is cheating"
"any pc is considered cheating, play is only allowed on a single specified model of arcade cabinet, yes you are hooking up a keyboard to an arcade cabinet"
"any playing environment that isn't exactly replicatable by another player constitutes cheating"
"any physical reality which may constitute any difference in output performance on a file given a set of prescribed circumstances is cheating"
"all players are mandated to replace their bodies with a standard model cyborg in order to ensure a level playing field"
"all players are mandated to replace their brainwave patterns with a standard model to further ensure a level playing field"
"all scores on the same file with the same mods are furthermore required to be the same, any scores that are not the same are considered to be cheating"
"all scores that exist must exist in a unique combination of different files/mods such that no two scores may be considered for the above mandate, this is to ensure that while the playing field is 100% level everyone is a winner and gets to feel like a special snowflake"

etc etc

[leonid]

If you gain huge score advantage from s.shuffle that chart is very likely to be horrible anyway